Perceptual Reality and Spiritual Understanding

[St. SteVen]

"... through a glass, darkly; but then face to face..." - 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV

This thread was inspired by a Podcast titled:
The Smoke Show - The Heavenly Banquet
(title linked - check it out)
This is not a transcript, but some ideas were lifted from there. (disclaimer - LOL)

Many years ago my wife and I had a curious experience.
We were driving home from an evening meeting on a winding parkway near our home.
Something large and dark came at us from the roadside. We both braced for impact.
But to our relief and amazement, nothing happened. The dark shadow we both
saw seemed to go underneath the car and then disappear. ???
No sound of impact and no damage to the car. Left us wondering.

Our view of the world is deeply personal, though often shared with others.
Our senses can fail us. (Podcast)
Spiritual realities are both seen and hidden. (Podcast)
The filter of our physical perception effects our spiritual understanding.

Separating illusion from reality. Was that really a miracle?
Or is there a rational explanation?

And our spiritual upbringing gives us a lens we use to view these things.
We tend to reject anything that doesn't look right through that lens.
Our objectivity is colored by our subjectivity. Fact versus opinion.

Discussion questions:
1) How has your spiritual understanding been formed by your personal perceptions? (the upbringing lens)
2) Do you accept, or reject the views of others with a different upbringing lens?
3) Are you more likely to be open, or closed to a potential miracle?
4) To what degree should we apply skepticism?

\ cc: @Chadrho

 

[Spyder]

I experience personal miracles. Those are the times when, in frustration; I ask Father to solve a problem for me. I lost something I can't find, I have an issue I can't work out, etc. Then the answer hits me between the eyes after I ask for it. I call them miracles because God hears my small voice among millions and has time for me. Sometimes, I simply realize that I was just spared a bad consequence of something I was doing - that was dumb on my part to start with. I used to call myself lucky, but now I don't. I give credit where I believe it is due. In short, I see God's hand in my life daily.
When others tell me of their similar events, I am not skeptical at all.
If Yahweh ever chose to use me to demonstrate His power to someone for His purposes for that person, I wonder how I would handle it. And then I wonder how observers would see it. Maybe one day I'll find out. If someone else is chosen to do a God-openly-working miracle, I'd love it.
Yahweh has confirmed for me His care and attention to me. I need no other miracles to convince me.

 

[Adrift]

I have seen a few things that I couldn't explain, but I just chalk it up to being some phenomenon that I failed to identify or is beyond my comprehension. A learning experience for me happened when I was flying my airplane from Oklahoma City to Denver. I stopped for fuel in the Oklahoma panhandle. Once the ground crew topped me off, I departed the small airport. About 2 minutes after takeoff and climbout to cruising altitude, I was startled by a loud banging, seemingly fron the engine compartment. It sounded like a piston was getting ready to crater. Very loud and scary. I went through the usual check, magnetos, fuel, etc. All checked OK, so I did a 180 and returned to the airport. It turns out that one of the ground crew had opened my passenger door and let the seat belt (and buckle) fall out. He apparently didn't notice and just closed the door on it. So, it was just the seat belt banging against the fuselage that made the horrible banging noise. I should have seen it during my preflight walkaround, but didn't ( my walkaround are much better now).
This event showed me how somethings happen that we misinterpret or just cannot fathom. This was terrifying until revealed. It made me ponder on what other misinterpretations steer me wrong due to a lack of understanding or knowledge. Weeding through my Christianity has been a lifelong study (and struggle) of theology, apologetics, doubts, rethinking, learning, and mostly seeking logical (possibly ignorant) answers to questions.

 

[St. SteVen]

Great post, thanks!

If Yahweh ever chose to use me to demonstrate His power to someone for His purposes for that person, I wonder how I would handle it. And then I wonder how observers would see it. Maybe one day I'll find out. If someone else is chosen to do a God-openly-working miracle, I'd love it.
Yahweh has confirmed for me His care and attention to me. I need no other miracles to convince me.

Like you, I see the day-to-day miracles when I turn my problems over to God.
But on occasion I have experienced bigger more involved miracles and divine appointments.
Here's one which you may have seen earlier.

Vision like an eagle

I recall it was a Sunday evening service at church. We had a local guest speaker I was familiar with.
After the sermon/teaching he was praying for people at the front of the church, the altar area.
I had gone down to help. Sometimes people go down when they are overwhelmed by the Spirit.
I was there as a catcher. I stood behind those being prayed for to make sure they had
a soft landing if they went down, Worship music was playing in the background.

Everyone had been prayed for, but I remained at the front worshiping God and enjoying his presence.
The song with a lyric "on eagles wings" was playing and so I stretched out my arms and swayed like and eagle in flight.
Just then the minister stepped forward and put a hand on my forehead declaring out loud, "Vision like an eagle!"
It startled me, I didn't anticipate it. But I received what he prophesied over me with a nod and a "Yes."

Nothing unusual happened in that moment. So I went me way thinking it was for another time. Indeed.

In the following weeks I began to have a recurring picture in my mind;s eye.
I recognized it as a familiar street in a neighboring city. I had no idea what it meant.
But it happened several times. And then stopped.

Several weeks later I was in the downtown area of my town on my bicycle.
I finished my business and was turning around to go home when I remember the area in the vision,
Since I wasn't far away, I thought I should ride over there and see if there was something there for me.

I rode up one side of the street looking at all the store fronts and anyone that might be there.
For some reason I was completely oblivious to what was happening right across the street. - LOL

I rode as far as I thought I needed to and decided to cross the street in the middle of the block
and go back on the other side. It was then that I notice a woman examining the back of her car as if it was damaged.
I also noticed that she looked rather sickly. A very pale complexion. Hmm... ???

I crossed the street and went past her. At that Moment God spoke to me loudly. "Go talk to that woman."
At that moment I also noticed the squad car at the scene of an accident that I had overlooked earlier.
As I turned my bike around, I asked God what I should say to her. My question was met with silence.
So typical for these encounters. - LOL

The woman was walking toward me so I stopped my bike. I needed to talk to her. What should I say?
As she neared I spoke up. "It looks like there was an accident here." She affirmed my comment and said she had been
hit by a car coming home from a doctor's appointment. At this point I was face to face with the woman.

She did look VERY sickly. I noticed that her hair was either falling out or growing back, not sure which.
And there were bumps on her head that looked like cancerous growths. So I asked here if she had cancer.

She conceded that she did indeed have cancer. I asked if I could pray for her. She agreed to let me do that.
I dismounted my bike and asked if I could lay a hand on her shoulder. Yes. I stumbled through an awkward prayer.
But I felt God's presence surrounding us. When I finished, she made the sign of the cross on her chest.
I assumed she was Catholic. I bid her well and left for home on my bicycle.

Tears streamed down my face as I considered what had just happened.
The logistics of this divine appointment blew my mind.

\

 

[Spyder]

Great post, thanks!

Like you, I see the day-to-day miracles when I turn my problems over to God.
But on occasion I have experienced bigger more involved miracles and divine appointments.
Here's one which you may have seen earlier.

Vision like an eagle

I recall it was a Sunday evening service at church. We had a local guest speaker I was familiar with.
After the sermon/teaching he was praying for people at the front of the church, the altar area.
I had gone down to help. Sometimes people go down when they are overwhelmed by the Spirit.
I was there as a catcher. I stood behind those being prayed for to make sure they had
a soft landing if they went down, Worship music was playing in the background.

Everyone had been prayed for, but I remained at the front worshiping God and enjoying his presence.
The song with a lyric "on eagles wings" was playing and so I stretched out my arms and swayed like and eagle in flight.
Just then the minister stepped forward and put a hand on my forehead declaring out loud, "Vision like an eagle!"
It startled me, I didn't anticipate it. But I received what he prophesied over me with a nod and a "Yes."

Nothing unusual happened in that moment. So I went me way thinking it was for another time. Indeed.

In the following weeks I began to have a recurring picture in my mind;s eye.
I recognized it as a familiar street in a neighboring city. I had no idea what it meant.
But it happened several times. And then stopped.

Several weeks later I was in the downtown area of my town on my bicycle.
I finished my business and was turning around to go home when I remember the area in the vision,
Since I wasn't far away, I thought I should ride over there and see if there was something there for me.

I rode up one side of the street looking at all the store fronts and anyone that might be there.
For some reason I was completely oblivious to what was happening right across the street. - LOL

I rode as far as I thought I needed to and decided to cross the street in the middle of the block
and go back on the other side. It was then that I notice a woman examining the back of her car as if it was damaged.
I also noticed that she looked rather sickly. A very pale complexion. Hmm... ???

I crossed the street and went past her. At that Moment God spoke to me loudly. "Go talk to that woman."
At that moment I also noticed the squad car at the scene of an accident that I had overlooked earlier.
As I turned my bike around, I asked God what I should say to her. My question was met with silence.
So typical for these encounters. - LOL

The woman was walking toward me so I stopped my bike. I needed to talk to her. What should I say?
As she neared I spoke up. "It looks like there was an accident here." She affirmed my comment and said she had been
hit by a car coming home from a doctor's appointment. At this point I was face to face with the woman.

She did look VERY sickly. I noticed that her hair was either falling out or growing back, not sure which.
And there were bumps on her head that looked like cancerous growths. So I asked here if she had cancer.

She conceded that she did indeed have cancer. I asked if I could pray for her. She agreed to let me do that.
I dismounted my bike and asked if I could lay a hand on her shoulder. Yes. I stumbled through an awkward prayer.
But I felt God's presence surrounding us. When I finished, she made the sign of the cross on her chest.
I assumed she was Catholic. I bid her well and left for home on my bicycle.

Tears streamed down my face as I considered what had just happened.
The logistics of this divine appointment blew my mind.

\

Yes, I have experienced similar events and had to accept I may never know what part my actions would ever play in the lives of those involved. I leave it to God and press on.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, I have experienced similar events and had to accept I may never know what part my actions would ever play in the lives of those involved. I leave it to God and press on.

Exactly.

1 Corinthians 3:4-6 NET
For whenever someone says, “I am with Paul,”
or “I am with Apollos,” are you not merely human?[a]
5 What is Apollos, really? Or what is Paul?
Servants through whom you came to believe,
and each of us in the ministry the Lord gave us.[b]
6 I planted,[c] Apollos watered, but God caused it to grow.

\

 

[BarneyFife]

1) How has your spiritual understanding been formed by your personal perceptions? (the upbringing lens)

I think the the only truthful answer would be: 'I doubt that I know well enough to judge.'

2) Do you accept, or reject the views of others with a different upbringing lens?

As a rule: Neither.
I only consider and respect them as best I can?

3) Are you more likely to be open, or closed to a potential miracle?

Somewhat cautiously open?

4) To what degree should we apply skepticism?

A better question might be "In what manner...?"


.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
1) How has your spiritual understanding been formed by your personal perceptions? (the upbringing lens)

I think the the only truthful answer would be: 'I doubt that I know well enough to judge.'

Right. I suppose most of us aren't even aware of it. Nor do we question it. Us vs. Them.

St. SteVen said:
2) Do you accept, or reject the views of others with a different upbringing lens?

As a rule: Neither.
I only consider and respect them as best I can?

Yes, "respect" is a better word than "accept".
But it's an option we all should remember to use.
You don't have to accept the views of others.
But in the interest of maintaining relationships, respect works well.
Others have a RIGHT to their own opinion, after all.

St. SteVen said:
3) Are you more likely to be open, or closed to a potential miracle?

Somewhat cautiously open?

Yes. We need to use discernment.
It does bother me to see how quickly we will dismiss the testimony of a fellow believer.
They testify of a miracle, and suddenly they become an untrustworthy stranger. ???

St. SteVen said:
4) To what degree should we apply skepticism?

A better question might be "In what manner...?"

That's a good question. How would you reply?

\

 

[BarneyFife]

Others have a RIGHT to their own opinion, after all.

"After all" would be an understatement in my view. The very Gospel itself is the purchase, in blood, of liberty of conscience. If people only realized just what it cost Jesus for them to have their own way until they are finally compelled by love to have His own way.

Us vs. Them.

They testify of a miracle, and suddenly they become an untrustworthy stranger. ???

Like two peas in a pod, aren't they?

I think it's important to give sincerely mistaken folks room to breathe as they grow.

I regret that I'm not always a good judge of sincerity. And even sincerity is often overrated. I wonder how many insincere ones I may have discouraged who might have eventually come around. Have mercy, I'm glad God is still on the Throne, and is not dependent on me.

That's a good question. How would you reply?

Well, I'm skeptical of anything that undermines my understanding of the loving character of God, including both His sense of mercy and justice, albeit, through a glass darkly, until I am able to see Him face to face.

.

 

[St. SteVen]

"After all" would be an understatement in my view. The very Gospel itself is the purchase, in blood, of liberty of conscience. If people only realized just what it cost Jesus for them to have their own way until they are finally compelled by love to have His own way.

Like two peas in a pod, aren't they?

I think it's important to give sincerely mistaken folks room to breathe as they grow.

I regret that I'm not always a good judge of sincerity. And even sincerity is often overrated. I wonder how many insincere ones I may have discouraged who might have eventually come around. Have mercy, I'm glad God is still on the Throne, and is not dependent on me.

Well, I'm skeptical of anything that undermines my understanding of the loving character of God, including both His sense of mercy and justice, albeit, through a glass darkly, until I am able to see Him face to face.
.

Wow!
Awesome post, buddy. I'm practically speechless. (a rare occurrence)

Yes! A ministry of encouragement does much better than a "ministry" of criticism.
If we can under-gird young disciples along the path toward maturity, we are doing a very noble task. IMHO

A pastor shared a very interesting statistic with us.
Children that grow up in a church where people know them by name
are much more likely to continue when they reach the age when they decide
whether to stay with it or leave the church.

I have made it my personal ministry to know these precious young ones by name.
And I actually LOVE talking to them. They are SO awesome!

\

 

[Spyder]

St. SteVen said:
2) Do you accept, or reject the views of others with a different upbringing lens?

Yes, "respect" is a better word than "accept".
But it's an option we all should remember to use.
You don't have to accept the views of others.
But in the interest of maintaining relationships, respect works well.
Others have a RIGHT to their own opinion, after all.

I hear a loud BINGO in the room!

 

[BarneyFife]

Wow!
Awesome post, buddy. I'm practically speechless. (a rare occurrence)

Yes! A ministry of encouragement does much better than a "ministry" of criticism.
If we can under-gird young disciples along the path toward maturity, we are doing a very noble task. IMHO

A pastor shared a very interesting statistic with us.
Children that grow up in a church where people know them by name
are much more likely to continue when they reach the age when they decide
whether to stay with it or leave the church.

I have made it my personal ministry to know these precious young ones by name.
And I actually LOVE talking to them. They are SO awesome!

\

As usual, you're too kind to me. This post of yours is pretty handsome, too, if I may say so.

I used to be very self-conscious about not being able to remember people's names and when I went to a week-long Lay Evangelist Training Seminar in '92 I asked around a bit about it and the Local Conference President I was bunking with told me the thing to do was to repeat people's names aloud several times as I met them and make sure I greeted them by name whenever I saw them. He asked the group of attendees to pray for me about it in one of the class meetings and by the time the seminar was over I knew all 83 attendees by name.

To this day, I'm in the habit of doing all that stuff and then very briefly explaining why I do so to everyone I meet.

I visited a nearby church today and the young lady who paid the most and kindest attention to me couldn't have been as old as 25.

I'm really glad I felt well enough to go and the young lady I mentioned made my day. One minute of her warm welcome just colored the whole event with the abiding presence of the Spirit of Christ. She could have been an angel for all I know. Didn't see her before or after our very brief chat. Her name was Abbie.

Talked to the head elder, David, about transferring my membership afterward (been meaning to do that for a while) and his little Asian warbride (lol), Sue, grabbed me as I was leaving to hug me. She half-apolgized for being so forward and I told her she was in luck since I'm a hugger from way back, as you could probably have imagined. (My best friend in high school got me into the habit of hugging people. He said it adds years to your life and to those you grab and squeeze. I just know he's right—it's science, anyway. Of course you have to be careful nowadays.)

These are the kind of Sabbath days I remember always.

.