SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[Fred J]

As according to the tread topic, the breathed out by GOD, all scripture, can determine which witnessing is truth and error.

Indeed this quote was posted to refute my witnessing, that is, 'Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of GOD.'

If one were to say that faith is in us and when we heard the word of GOD that came. Hence, on our own ability of faith, we responded. and are saved by the grace of GOD.

But this contradict as error, compared to other scripture that read otherwise. For is written,
'But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of GOD by faith in Christ Jesus.'

Therefore is written,
'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast.'

Apparently, grace and faith have been held back by GOD, until HE presented them as a gift.

Is written,
'That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, HE hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.'

'But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of GOD, should shine unto them.'

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of GOD."
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of GOD."

 

[Titus]

If one were to say that faith is in us and when we heard the word of GOD that came. Hence, on our own ability of faith, we responded. and are saved by the grace of GOD.

God has given everyone the free will to choose Jesus.
If not mankind is not guilty for his unbelief God is guilty for withholding faith.

But this contradict as error, compared to other scripture that read otherwise. For is written,
'But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith

No err or contradiction.
Sir you are contradicting the word,
Romans 10:17,
- Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

Sir, our faith only comes by hearing the gospel.
You are teaching faith comes only for a select few BEFORE they hear the gospel, word of God.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law,

Sir, this is Galatians. Galatians is written to converted Jews.
Paul is teaching these Jewish christians NOT TO GO BACK INTO OLD TESTAMENT LAW OF MOSES.

- But before faith came....

Paul is saying before the gospel of Christ came. Referring to when they were still under the Old testament law i.e. Mosaical law.
Not before PERSONAL faith came. The Jews had faith(personal) already.

So what faith is Paul talking about?
The context is NOTICE: The Faith.

Sir, when the word THE is before Faith it is referring to the gospel of Christ not a persons personal belief.

Notice the word the,

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Bedford the gospel of Christ came, Jews were kept under the law(law of Moses) shut up unto THE Faith(gospel of Christ) which should come AFTERWARDS

What is coming afterwards?
First the are in the law of Moses.
That is what they are "shut up unto"
Then what comes afterwards is THE Faith, that is the new testament gospel.
That is what is afterward revealed.

You have been taught that the faith was a person's belief.
This is not the context you have miss- interpreted the word.

This does not teach some have no ability to believe.

Apparently, grace and faith have been held back by GOD, until HE presented them as a gift.

No sir, Gods grace is offered to all who believe.
That belief is NOT withheld by God. All can believe by HEARING THE GOSPEL.

The Faith in these verses is not individual belief.
You've been taught by ignorant men.

Heres proof The faith is the gospel of Christ not personal belief.

Jude 3,
- Dear friends although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation we share I felt compelled to write to you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints

1Timothy 6:12,
- fight the good fight of the faith(gospel) take hold of eternal life...

Ephesians 4:5,
- one Lord, One faith(gospel), one baptism

Galatians 1:23,
- but they were hearing only, He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith(gospel of Christ) which he once tried to destroy.

 

[Fred J]

Romans 10:17,
- Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Noted, but immature not according to the context of the scriptures.

It is also written;

Ephesians 2:
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself: it is the gift of GOD:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So, you heard the word of GOD, and of yourself ability heard, cum did works in respond, you got saved?

If that's your truth, than why only a remnant of Israel were saved and while many rejected, also both heard the same word of GOD??

Romans 11:
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8. (According as it is written, GOD hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.


For the record every one heard and hears the word of GOD, but it is all GOD's will and timing when this gift will be presented. What's the point of hearing about a gift i shall receive freely, and yet i don't have it on me?

There are other Biblical aspects to what else prevents people, even though they've already heard the word of GOD.

2 Corinthians 4:
4. But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not

There's no way on my own heard the Gospel or read the New Testament, without the gift of GOD, of me and my works i saved myself.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

For the record every one heard and hears the word of GOD, but it is all GOD's will and timing when this gift will be presented. What's the point of hearing about a gift i shall receive freely, and yet i don't have it on me?

There are other Biblical aspects to what else prevents people, even though they've already heard the word of GOD.

Precious friend, "The Record Of God" Also States about those "left behind" at our Great GRACE Departure:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom The Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth,​

and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of​

Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in​

them that perish; because...
​

...they received not The Love Of The Truth, that they might be saved.​

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all
might be damned who believed not The Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 AV)​

Thus, Both God and man 'each' have responsibility in salvation, Correct?

Amen.

 

[Grailhunter]

Peter and Paul never taught the same gospel. When Peter taught the kingdom gospel at Pentecost, Saul was rejecting the Messiah. When Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God, Peter’s gospel of the kingdom to Israel was limited to the circumcision.
Below are the six major issues of distinction between what Peter taught and what Paul taught. The main similarity between the two messages exists in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:10).

When it comes to scriptures “change” is the hardest things Christians have to deal with. The other issue is sequence of events.

Peter was an emotional and dedicated Apostle that learnt and was enlightened as he went along in his ministry.

He started out as a Jewish-Christian.

According to the scriptures he was the first Apostle to identify Yeshua for what He was.

According to the scriptures it seemed that Yeshua had placed Peter as the leader of the Apostles, but that was only apparent early in Acts. At some point James the brother of Christ….who was not identified as an Apostle took the leadership role of the Jewish-Christians….and how that happened is not explained in the scriptures and then he was killed.

According to the scriptures Peter received a vision about Kosher foods.

Peter performed more miracles than any other Apostle.

Eventually Peter joins Paul in his ministry to the Pagans and Peter joins Paul at the Jerusalem counsel that defined the Gentile-Christians. At this point there are 2 Christian sects. The Jewish-Christian were still observing the Mosaic Law….at least parts of it and worshipping in temple and observing the Sabbath.

The Gentile-Christians did not follow the Mosaic Law and were not allowed in the Temple and would worship in secret in “house churches” or other secret places like catacombs or out in woods at night and made the day of Christ’s resurrection, Sunday, their holy day of worship, Known as the Lord's Day.

Paul is the leader of the Gentile-Christians and Paul and Peter are friends and work the ministry to the Pagans together. And like friends they don’t always get along, but they work things out.

According to scriptures and tradition, Acts ends when Peter and Paul are martyred together. Since the Jewish-Christians were dramatically affected by the destruction of the Temple and lost any favor with the Jews or Gentile-Christians they ceased to exist after the 1st century. No more Apostles. After the 1st century the Gentile-Christians took the helm of the Church.

The overall assessment of Peter by the Catholics never materializes. Peter is never defined as the leader of the Apostles. You have Apostles and “over seers” of congregations that are called churches in the scriptues…no church buildings before the 4th century. Apostles and over seers….no position known as Pope in this era.

Sylvester I and Mark Marcvs 4th century, were the first to fill the office of Pope and carry the designation as Pope. From there they looked back at various Christian leaders and gave them the honorary designation of Pope when no such position existed. This included Peter which never held a position of leadership in Christianity but was connected to the congregation in Rome. But was an historical favorite of the Ecumenical Councils.

So looking back it would have made more sense to give Paul the honorary designation as Pope.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dichotomy: a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.

I’ve been glued to Numbers 5 concerning the Law of Jealousies where one woman drinks and is guilty of adultery where the bitter water goes in and her thigh rots and her belly swells …conception of sin unto death.

Yet there is the woman who Free, clean, and she produces seed. Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

In Roman’s it speaks of the adulteress woman guilt under the law of jealousies(who brings forth sin unto death), but you have been made free from the law of Jealousies through the body of Body of Christ to bear, bring forth Fruit unto God.

The two women contradict one another. Their messages are not the same. Their endings are not the same. The adulteress is: sin unto death. The freewoman is: obedience unto righteousness (Life).

But the freewoman does bear Fruit unto God. Christ the First Fruits.
Although I don’t think this working of Fruit —where you have been made free to bring forth Fruit unto God by the body of Christ …is the same “work” as the work of the adulteress woman because hers leads men to death.

False dichotomy in salvation is the belief that it must be by Grace or it must be by works.
This is a false dichotomy because the two do not contradict!!
They both harmonize perfectly with one another.

You have been made free from the law of sin unto death to bring forth fruit unto God. It is God’s Will that you bear Fruit.

Consider “its the work of God that you believe on Him who is sent”

Paul writes to the Corinthians how they question “Christ speaks in me” and how they want proof …it is a work of God Paul sent to the gentiles, to testify of Christ “it’s no longer I, but Christ lives in Me” —it’s a work of God that you believe. How about the world won’t hear you, because they don’t hear Me? Paul tells the Corinthians that he trust that even they “do not yet see” in “even though we still appear to you as reprobates” …Paul told them “I trust you will see” and “know we do not fail” the work of God mighty towards them —works—that “this we do for you perfecting, be you made complete.” To me there is the effectual working of God that brings for Fruit unto God in “their being made strong” whet Paul said this we will do and continue to do “we will be weak that you be made strong” the power of God resting upon “for when I am weak, then I am strong.” That the power be of God and not of men. Point is…agree there should be Fruit. But the Fruit can’t be be called the same as the adulteress woman’s work because of one word which is “works”: because those “works” end differently.

Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith  working through love

^see the above of Paul’s example of “working through love” towards the Corinthians. You can’t get any closer to the example of Christ who became poor that many be made rich in Him—than “we also will gladly be weak, that you be made strong” and this we do for your perfecting.

God requires a faith with action/obedience to His commandments in Jesus' gospel.
Only faith that works to meet Gods conditions can receive His grace!!!

I think of it as dead with Him, and in considering salvation with works…Dead men don’t work? One example is from the crucifixion where the aim is —towards me. Which Christs was towards me as an enemy of God, to reconcile unto God. The other towards another. The first example is what I was told my whole life must be in focus. me. Which filled up all the space in-between with my working …laboring hard—-toward me. There is something in what He asked His disciples about does a servant come in from the field and is seated to eat before their master, or does the servants make ready to serve their master, and then eat?
+———my working —— towards Me.
+———Gods working ——towards You.

Example two to me can’t be faked. Because either God miraculously does the working towards another or He doesn’t.

2 Corinthians 13:3-4
Since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me,(it’s the work of God to believe in Him who He has sent) which to you-ward is not weak, but is (works) mighty in you.(for this is the work of God that you believe on the Son) [4] For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

 

[Titus]

So, you heard the word of GOD, and of yourself ability heard, cum did works in respond, you got saved

Yes it's called free moral agency or freewill
God has determined to give all the ability to choose him or reject him.
That's Gods sovereign right to do so.

If that's your truth, than why only a remnant of Israel were saved and while many rejected, also both heard the same word of GOD?

Because they(jews) had the ability to choose their own path and some chose to rebel against God when they did, God condemned them,

8. (According as it is written, GOD hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

God did not choose to elect only certain Jews and dam others.
He choose to elect all of them just as He chooses to elect all of the gentiles.

With their freewill they chose themselves to be wicked, the consequence was they were then blinded by God,

7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

How did the elect obtain it?
By their repentant hearts and obedience to God.

2 Corinthians 4:
4. But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not

Did you read that carefully? God did not blind them from the gospel the Devil did.
Why did that occur?
Because they rejected the truth so satan had power over them to harden their hearts against God.

God hardens our hearts with His word.
We hear the gospel but if we refuse to believe it, that rebellion is SIN, and by our sin our hearts are hardened against Gods gospel.

Likewise when we refuse to believe the gospel that sin allows the devil in to further harden our hearts to the point where we will never repent from our freewill choice, when we rejected His gospel.

There's no way on my own heard the Gospel or read the New Testament, without the gift of GOD, of me and my works i saved myself.

The gift of God IS THE GOSPEL.
The gift IS THAT HE GAVE EVERYONE HIS GOSPEL FREELY SO THAT ALL MIGHT BE SAVED.

The Holy Spirit gave the saving gospel to all of us it's our choice to accept it or reject it.
That is how the Holy Spirit works in mans salvation today, through the power of the gospel.
No one can be saved by their works alone.


Ephesians 2:8-9,
- by Grace you have been saved through faith(John 6:28-29 faith is a work)

and not of yourselves(cannot be saved without Gods grace)

it is the gift of God(His grace is the gift)

not of works(meaning MERITORIOUS WORKS)

lest any man should boast(we would boast of saving ourselves if we could earn salvation through our own works apart from Grace)

 

[Fred J]

Precious friend, "The Record Of God" Also States about those "left behind" at our Great GRACE Departure:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom The Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth,​

and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of​

Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in​

them that perish; because...​

​

...they received not The Love Of The Truth, that they might be saved.​

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all​

might be damned who believed not The Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."​

(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 AV)​

Thus, Both God and man 'each' have responsibility in salvation, Correct?

Amen.

Noted, rather these are included of those who believe not on the word of GOD, even upon hearing. Even after also receiving the free gift to 'see' and 'hear', henceforth perceive in faith the Gospel leading to redemption. If you're posting with quotes is your side of the version, am too doing the same, rather overall put together, they are in one context of the truth about salvation.

John 3:
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of GOD."
5. Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of GOD.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ..........................."

Ephesians 2:
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of GOD:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Like i testified, it's GOD's will and timing to whom HIS gift is for now and for later and so, to 'see' and 'hear', cum 'enter' by faith the Kingdom of GOD. There are apparently believers who've asked GOD, why did HE take some time or rather long time, to have them saved, and not earlier?? On the other hand in the posting, there are those who claim or boast, upon hearing the word GOD, themselves in faith responded and are saved. Then apparently it's 'by themselves' and of 'their works' they are saved hearing the word of GOD.

But am a testimony, how i heard the Gospel and was saved. When i heard the Gospel as a pagan, i was reluctant about this character Jesus, not enough, was confused since in carnality, His sayings/words/teachings from above. Prior before i even heard about the Holy Bible, was led in many ways and times, to perceive the uniqueness of basic creation, earth and man. Hence began to perceive then, there's only one GOD who created these and others, ones are basically seen since young, but have not yet perceived.

Also came a basic Christian prayer, 'GOD who created this world and everything in it, man, animals, plants and trees, if this is the truth teach me and i will share it with others.' For the very first time am hearing the Old and New Testament, and am not understanding the content. That's when i consult this same GOD to show me and HE indeed guided me all the way through to the Gospel. Now, i meet reluctantly the man Jesus and His teaching, where i struggling and contemplate, not able to perceive. While that also, HE clarifies as i hear on continuously and wait for answers for clarification and understanding.

The ability to study the Holy Bible continuously for years, and over the same passage again and again, until a revelation understanding enlightens me, all came from HIM alone. Even Jesus and His teachings, where i came to love and cherish, to the book of Revelation, all came from HIM. Nothing i ever did, nor thought to seek, nor knocked Heaven's door, nor ever asked of HIM, to find HIM besides Jesus. But in the lowers point of my life, 'HE the ONE who works in mysterious ways', found me. And furthermore made me be acquainted with HIS SON, Jesus Christ of Nazareth and Hs words/teachings/sayings.

 

[Fred J]

Yes it's called free moral agency or freewill

Apparently, 'by yourself' and 'by your works', having a free moral agency or freewill, your 'self' responded in faith and are saved.

God has determined to give all the ability to choose him or reject him.

Here now on the other hand, GOD determined to 'give ability', to choose him or reject him??

Ephesians 2:8-9,
- by Grace you have been saved through faith(John 6:28-29 faith is a work)

and not of yourselves(cannot be saved without Gods grace)

it is the gift of God(His grace is the gift)

not of works(meaning MERITORIOUS WORKS)

lest any man should boast(we would boast of saving ourselves if we could earn salvation through our own works apart from Grace)

According to you once again, grace is from GOD and faith is a work from your 'self'. Therefore, by your own moral agency or freewill, you your 'self' responded in faith, hearing grace the gift, in order to be saved.

But am sticking to the context of the scriptures posted and explanation done in my posts. And for me, every thing, even grace and faith, is the gift of GOD i've received in order to be saved. i can boast, 'not of myself' nor 'not of my works', i attained salvation, but alone by the gift of GOD.

Shalom

 

[Grailhunter]

The misunderstandings regarding works

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works

This is not what the scriptures say but it is what a lot of people remember and it is how they apply Christianity to their lives and to the Commandment that we should love one another, as well as the responsibilities of Christians ….Which is why some are resistant to my motto to Be good and do good.

The scripture actually says…
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Romans 3:18
This scripture is actually referring to the observance of the Mosaic Law. And this leads to a curse for Christians that try…..but that is another topic.

But the case in point is that some people equate the word works to the Good Deeds of Christians. So how did this confusion start?

The Greeks have a few words for works and Good Deeds so you have to look at the context that the words are used in, in the actual scriptures. And do not always relay on the translations….look it up for yourself.

In the beginning of the Protestant reform they were struggling with the Catholic Church’s control and requirements for salvations, and all the rituals as well as the klondike doctrines that still dog Protestantism to this day.

Martin Luther was not alone in the reform effort because other groups had already broke away from the Church. But history shows him as the central figure at the beginning of the reform and the leader that lost control of it and it went from a reform to a schism.

And of course he rejected the Church’s claim of total authority over salvation ….and rightly so. But like many he keyed on the concept…. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works…portion of the scripture and did not associate it to the Mosaic Law but any good Christian activities.....or did he?

But still people focused on Luther's central claim that faith alone justifies (that is, makes a person righteous in the eyes of God) So people took it that Martin was not big on Good Deeds or charity….But actually that could not be more wrong and he wrote on Good Deeds and charity, but history marginalized his interest in such things.

As time went on a lot of Christians did not believe that Christians needed to do anything. And rejected the scriptural beliefs as well as Martin’s teaching that Christians have responsibilities. That there are things we should do for others that pleases the Lord.

Lazinessism and the don’t doers religion….Odd terms but descriptive, some of the beliefs that lead to Calvinism, Once Saved Always Saved and Universalism. If you do Good Deeds, that means you do not have faith in Christ’s salvation. Good Deeds = Works and It is what you don’t do that makes you right with God. These are concepts that crept into Christianity after the 17th century. The fact that the topic of “works” in the scriptures is usually referring to the futility of the “works of the Mosaic Law” gets lost.

So now a days you will hear people say that Good Deeds have nothing to do with salvation. And they are right, Good Deeds do not save you….they are right …. sort of. On this topic it would be good to read James 2:14-26 and more importantly about the sheep and the goats Matthew 25:31-46 and pay close attention to the last two verses….. Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either. And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

So does this mean that saved Christians that do not help others will end up in Hell or that Christians that do not help others were not saved to begin with and where headed to Hell from the beginning? Either way people that do not have compassion for those that need help and actually do not help them will go to Hell for it and maybe they did not have the Spirit of Christ in them to begin with. It is a serious matter. So it is true that Good Deeds do not save you but not doing Good Deeds can land you in the place of eternal fiery torment forever. That is the fact that gets lost after the 17th century. The do nothing approach to Christianity, where did it come from. Part of it was the scriptures that talked about Christians separating themselves “from the world” So the concept of monasticism and asceticism were born.

Defined here as….
Monasticism have their origins in the New Testament, which describes practices like fasting, celibacy, and withdrawing into the isolation in the desert or wilderness. Even to the point of living in caves, cliffs, and trees and towers most their lives.

Asceticism is a system of spiritual practices that includes self-discipline, self-knowledge, interior vigilance, and developing virtues. Monasticism emerged in the late 3rd century and became an established institution in the Christian church by the 4th century. These people were considered the most pious and most right with God in their era.

The problem with this is that it defeats and ignores a good part of the meaning and spirit of the New Testament….the New Covenant because it is all about “self” These people did nothing for anybody but themselves….they were only concerned with the advancement of their own souls to Heaven.

Protestantism rejected the concepts of monasticism and asceticism but still it was about self. Not being the light to the world and did exactly what Christ said not to do….They but the lamp under a bushel basket. So they developed a bunch of man-made sins and Lazinessism and the don’t doers religion was born. Rightness was defined by what you didn’t do….that you did not sin against the man-made sins like sex, drinking, smoking, gambling, dancing, playing card or dice games etc, about 75 man-made sins. This replaced monasticism and asceticism in defining piety. But Lazinessism eventually worked against them because over time people did not want to go to church….to much work and it fell into the category of the dreaded “works” column....thinking no need for it. The early Christians risked their lives to gather and worship the Lord….now a days a lot of Christians do not even try. And the Christian life was not about doing anything, mostly not doing anything. And the application of Christianity became like a club….and you sign up and don’t do the man-made sins, and you are good to go. No real effort....a lazy man's religion.

The truth is….Accepting Yeshua as your savior and Acts 2:38 is only the first step in a long Journey from there you workout your salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 The Way….the way of life, the way to Heaven.

Christ would much prefer that you exhaust yourself doing good. And if you stumbled along the way He would pick you up, pat the dust off and send you on your way because He is pleased with what you are doing. And in the end the conversation with Christ will be pleasant.

So love God and love one another and obey God and go to church and stand with other Christians and worship the Lord and give to the church and charity and certainly help those you can and those that Christ places in your path and you will gather riches in heaven. Stay away from condemnation and gossip.

Be good and do good.
The Johnny Appleseed of Truth

 

[Titus]

Apparently, 'by yourself' and 'by your works', having a free moral agency or freewill, your 'self' responded in faith and are saved

No, without the word of God I would not know what to respond to.
If a hindu or Muslim taught me I could respond. But it would do me no good.
If a preacher preached the gospel to me I could respond.
Its God given free will.
Since you dont believe God gives the ability to believe the gospel when its taught to us, you make God guilty for all the lost.

Not my works Ephesians 2:8-9.
But the works of God, John 6:28-29.
You see the difference?

Once again not my works that save me.
By Grace we are saved.
By Grace apart from faith? No, God doesn't give Grace to the unbeliever.
That makes Gods grace conditional.
Conditioned on what

God gives us things to do in His gospel and when we obey God, God freely gives us Grace.

According to you once again, grace is from GOD and faith is a work from your 'self

No you don't understand.
Faith is a work of God, John 6:28-29.

I cannot believe without the work of the Holy Spirit.
How does the Holy Spirit work in the hearts of men today to produce faith?

Answer: The gospel that the Holy Spirit delivered is how God works faith in me, not by my own self!!!!
You don't understand what I teach.

The Holy Spirit gives faith through the word,
Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

How does the Holy Spirit work on the hearts of men today?
Answer: 1Thessalonians 2:13,
- for this cause also thank we God without ceasing because when ye received the word of God which ye heard from us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is the truth the word of God which EFFECTUALLY WORKETH IN YOU

Did you know the power of the word(gospel) is How the Holy Spirit  calls us to Christ?

2Thessalonians 2:14,
- whereunto He called you by our gospel to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

Did you know the Holy Spirit gives us the new birth(born again) by the word of God(gospel)?

1Peter 1:23,
- being born again not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever


Yes I can believe the gospel when I hear it. You deny that people can.
You don't understand that You are making God guilty for all that hear the gospel but reject it because you say they cannot believe it by their God given free will.

 

[12question]

God is guilty for withholding faith.

Does anyone have a problem with this conclusion? God absolutely withholds His grace and has every right to do whatever He wants with what's His.

God is guilty, blame worthy, responsible for everything that happens with what's His. Is He guilty of killing pregnant women? Yes. Can He be blamed for destroying animals? Yes. Is He responsible for deceiving people? Yes.

But who are we to accuse the Creator and Owner of all of creation of doing wrong things, bad things or destructive things.

How arrogant it would be of me to attempt to question, blame, accuse, judge, condemn the Creators, thinking I know better than Them.

Were we, along with everything else, created for Their pleasure? They can give and take away as They see fit.

We, by Their determining, fit into Their plan. They do not fit into our plans. How have we become so arrogant as humans?

Thankfully They can do as They please and there is no one equal or above Them to put Them on trial to judge and condemn Them for Their actions. Praise our Creators for Who They
are and what They do.

 

[Titus]

Does anyone have a problem with this conclusion? God absolutely withholds His grace and has every right to do whatever He wants with what's His.

God is guilty, blame worthy, responsible for everything that happens with what's His. Is He guilty of killing pregnant women? Yes. Can He be blamed for destroying animals? Yes. Is He responsible for deceiving people? Yes.

But who are we to accuse the Creator and Owner of all of creation of doing wrong things, bad things or destructive things.

How arrogant it would be of me to attempt to question, blame, accuse, judge, condemn the Creators, thinking I know better than Them.

Were we along with everything else created everything for Their pleasure? They can give and take away as They see fit.

We, by Their determining, fit into Their plan. They do not fit into our plans. How have we become so arrogant as humans?

Thankfully They can do as They please and there is no one equal or above Them to put Them on trial to judge and condemn Them for Their actions. Praise our Creators for Who They
are and what They do.

Are you a polytheist?

 

[Titus]

Does anyone have a problem with this conclusion? God absolutely withholds His grace and has every right to do whatever He wants with what's His.

God is guilty, blame worthy, responsible for everything that happens with what's His. Is He guilty of killing pregnant women? Yes. Can He be blamed for destroying animals? Yes. Is He responsible for deceiving people? Yes.

I guess you dont believe God is love since you teach He does evil like deceiving people and withholding His grace from some.
1John 4:8,
- he that loveth not knoweth not God for God is love

 

[12question]

Again God is completely guilty. Does God Himself have any issue with this? Of course not. He can do whatever with the lump of clay which He made in the first place. Making things to use for good or evil. This includes Lucifer, Satan, the devil, demons in the spiritual realm. Also Hitler and Pharaoh in this physical realm.

God will never go on trial for His actions. For who would stand as judge over Him?

No one, especially not me. I embrace Him and all that He does. Do I find some things He does challenging and confusing? Yes. But when I stop and consider Him, I come to this same conclusion. He designed, created and owns everything so He is the only One Who has the right to do whatever He wants with what's His.

All He does is for His own pleasure. Glory to God!

 

[12question]

Are you a polytheist?

What's that? It sounds pretty fancy. I'm just me. Who my Creators made me.

 

[Titus]

What's that?

Believes in multiple gods

 

[Titus]

Again God is completely guilty

I'm glad you have no problem changing the nature of God into evil who creates some with no hope of heaven only to burn them in hell.

Any person who would gladly serve your god, must be evil themselves

 

[12question]

Believes in multiple gods

It is stated that the Creators said, Let Us made man in Our own image and likeness.

 

[Titus]

What's that? It sounds pretty fancy. I'm just me. Who my Creators made me.

You are an immigrant living in Australia? What country did you immigrate from?