SALVATION OF ANIMALS

[Aunty Jane]

I’m not against any version if it brings clarity to the reader. Sometimes other versions help me far more than the Kjv, but the Kjv is a habit for me. I guess I need to start respecting others when quoting the kjv? maybe others are more frustrated by its old language?

The KJV was also my first and only Bible when I started to study in earnest….but the language frustrated me to no end, until it was suggested that I might like to try a modern English version…after that, I put my old KJV away and prefer to read the Bible in a language I speak today and readily understand.

The clincher for me was Mark 10:14…..”Suffer the little children to come unto me”……I had seen that verse on the gravestones of small children who had lost their battle with disease and it bothered me, but I didn’t know why? Perhaps the question of why God would want small children to suffer so that they could come to him, sounded foreign to the God of love that was spoken about in church….? It was something I wrestled with.

But when I actually studied the modern English Bible I discovered that the old English word “suffer” actually meant “allow”…..and in context, the apostles were trying to push the children away from the teacher imagining that he had no time for children……they could not have been more wrong……he told them to “allow” the children to come to him…and he gave them his time…..so, it had nothing to do with suffering.
I wondered what else I had been mistaken about, that my church did not correct.
There was so much more….

 

[Aunty Jane]

Concerning Ecclesiastes … “the dead know nothing” and how in the grave, the lowest parts there is “nothing more”
“No more reward in the grave”

Understanding Jewish belief about the dead, we can see what Solomon was saying. When Jesus was journeying to Bethany to resurrect his friend Lazarus, where did he say Lazarus was?
John 11:11-14…
”After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.

Lazarus’ grieving sister said to him…”Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”….the next part of their conversation was interesting because Martha expressed her view of where Lazarus had gone, according to her Jewish belief….in the resurrection.

”Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”

What is “the resurrection on the last day”?
From their Scripture, Jews believed in a resurrection…not in an immortal soul that departed from the body at death to live somewhere else. The resurrection was a return to life here on earth under the rulership of Messiah’s Kingdom…If you visit a Jewish cemetery, you will often find elaborate tombs designed to catch God’s attention so that he would remember them when the time came for their lives to be restored in Messiah’s kingdom.

If a person was not deemed worthy of a resurrection, their bodies were often thrown into “gehenna” which was Jerusalem’s garbage dump, just outside the city walls. Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the garbage, so any carcasses, of animals or humans were destroyed in gehenna…..what the fires missed, the maggots would finish off. It was a symbol of everlasting death as opposed to everlasting life.

This word “gehenna” was then translated “hell” which was used to support Christendom’s hellfire doctrine. There is no hellfire….there is a place where bodies are “destroyed”, but not tortured. (Matt 10:28)
In order to suffer, you have to be conscious….and Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 was a statement of Jewish belief that stands on its own. Unless you know what Jews believed, you can read into scripture, what is not really there.

They literally believed that they would “sleep in death” until the resurrection. Jesus confirmed it….
”Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”
The dead will be called out of their graves…which means, they haven’t gone anywhere.

Later the apostate Jews adopted the Greek idea of an immortal soul and “Sheol” became “the realm of the dead”…a rather ambiguous term that implied that the dead existed somewhere, but in a conscious state.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Concerning Ecclesiastes … “the dead know nothing” and how in the grave, the lowest parts there is “nothing more”
“No more reward in the grave”
spoken of in Ecclesiastes “no more reward” so “eat and be merry” (even a warning in the NT where they are eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage…and “unaware it comes upon them”…to me this is “the dead know nothing” their caught unaware as a thief comes in the night then what will their reward be that they trusted in?)

The “reward” here is the Hebrew word for “wages” indicating that their useful life as hired laborers was finished….they could earn no more income. The dead are actually dead.

“For the dead know nothing”
To me that could be translated “those in darkness know nothing but sleep” “unaware” …but unless I misunderstood the Word says “it shouldn’t be so with you” “you are of the Day” “You are the Light” “not as one dead, not as one who sleeps who knows nothing where a thief approaches and overtakes you but be not drunken with “be merry we have our reward!” But watching, sober and awake …”

Any scripture can be translated any way someone wants it to read….which is why we have to study God’s word in its entirety, to understand, not only what is being said, but the way the original writer meant, and understood it themselves. All scripture must then be read through a Jewish lens, because all the Bible writers were Jewish. Becoming a Christian did not change God, or his original purpose for mankind on this earth. Jesus is the one who will make God’s first purpose a reality. He is “the way, the truth and the life” so we have to follow his teachings in order to see God’s purpose become reality.
“The last day” that Martha spoke about was the thousand year reign of Christ when all the dead will be resurrected….both good and bad. (John 5:28-29)

Ecclesiastes 9:5 Lexicon: For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

^contradiction because it only speaks of one “they have their reward “so drink! Be merry!” Because there is no more reward beyond the grave “this is your best life now!” Mindset. Steal, kill, destroy your brother because this is it. This is all there is.
Matthew 6:1-2 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. [2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Another interesting passage….when Jesus said that “they have their reward”……this word is “misthos” and it means the full payment for your labor…..IOW, the Pharisees were getting what they wanted now from men, but would get nothing from God in the future, Jesus having sentenced them to “Gehenna”….or eternal death.

But there is more than “all go to the same place” and “the dead know nothing” for if there is no “Alive in Him, making many rich towards God” …then why do JW …witness of more “reward” that goes beyond the grave? Having passed from death unto Life? And how those “Living” “alive in God” are aware of something “the dead” “those remaining in darkness still” are blind of and do not know? Why warn the dead and those remaining in darkness if …all has the same knowledge?

There was a two fold purpose to the preaching work that Jesus assigned to all of his disciples.
1) It gives everyone an opportunity to hear the message, whether they accept it or not is their decision.

2) It allows God to see a response, one way or the other…..he does not judge us but allows us to show him who we are….virtually judging ourselves by the choices we make.

When Jesus sent his disciples out to preach, he said….
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city.” (Matt 10:11-15)

The preaching of the good news is not an option, but an obligation to our fellow man….to offer them what God has offered us. If they accept Christ’s message, and act on it, then we have gained a brother or sister…but if they do not listen and respond, they have still made a choice….the exercise of their free will.

“Shaking the dust off“ meant that the customary washing of the feet of your visitors was not done, and therefore shaken off against them. They would join the Pharisees in Gehenna for rejecting God’s son, and becoming complicit in his murder. (Matt 27:25)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I did a thread about this a while back. I can't tell enough people of how animals too will be resurrected.

To me, this verse is the ultimate "yes." Some translations say "creature" while others say "creation" but ultimately I think the whole point of this verse is "All of creation" be it human, animal, bird, serpent, insect, sea creature, microscopic thing, and even the plant life. God never intended for anything to die and on the new earth everything will be restored.

If there is no death, what will end up happening?
Resurrection for the majority of humans, will be back to life this earth….cleansed and restored to it’s paradise conditions. Animals will always be here with us, but if populations are not not controlled, overpopulation would strip the land and become detrimental.

Humans were placed here as God’s caretakers, made in his image and endowed with his qualities and attributes. Only humans were promised everlasting life…animals have a finite existence to keep everything in balance.

The part of the OP you quoted….

Romans 8:20 and 21 describes how the whole creation is groaning and travailing, waiting for restoration: “The creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God” (WEB). Do these references perhaps imply that God’s non-human creatures on this earth, which had no responsibility for the origin of evil, will be ultimately set free from decay/curse by their resurrection/salvation?

The freedom that God’s non-human creatures will have is freedom from human wickedness. Never again to become the meat in the sandwich, (literally) while humans destroy their natural habitats to build their own concrete jungles. Animals are not promised a resurrection….but neither do they have a concept of death.
It does not bother them like it does us, as we can contemplate not only our own death, but those close to us as well. It was never supposed to happen…

Their circle of life is perpetual…..whilst they exist, life will be pleasurable for them….as it will be for us to take good care of them.

 

[Taken]

Sorry but animals have no immortal soul nor any capacity to sin and rebel against their creator. they have no need of salvation.

They were created to be under mans dominion.

When they die, their existence ceases. As for words like save- it also means deliver or preserve. ONe also needs to go to teh original language and see and then look at the context to determine if it is a soteriological or physical saving.

Disagree.

Life of man IS BLOOD, and sentenced TO DIE.
(Gen 9:4-5)

Life of the SOUL IS Gods BREATH, and belongs to God. Gods Breath, Gods Spirit can NOT DIE.

All souls Belong to God.
Ezek 18:4)

All souls, belong to God, and the Life of the soul IMPARTED into a BODY, belongs to God.

All souls DEPARTED from a DEAD body continue LIVING outside of the DEAD body.
(Gen 35:18. 1 Kings 17: 21-220

Departed Living souls, CONTINUE LIVING…with God or without God IN Hell.


Departed Living souls, IN Heaven With God, ARE “souls” which:
Either;
never sinned
Or “souls”
forgiven their sin of having been against God.

Animals HAVE souls, with Gods Breath of Life IN THEM.
Animals HAVE NOT THE capacity, to know God, to learn about God, to love God, to praise God, to worship God, to believe in God.
Therefore they have NO capacity to SIN against God, for which they otherwise would require SOUL forgiveness of God For their soul to enter Gods Heavenly Kingdom.

Yes living animals possess Sinless Living souls IN their living body’s. And when their body’s DIE, their living soul Departs their dead body, and Enter INTO Gods Heavenly Kingdom, to be WITH God forever.

It is the FLESH of manKIND that became corrupted, thus corrupted his soul within his flesh and requires forgiveness in ORDER for his SOUL to be “restored” (Pss 23:3), his SPIRIT to become “born again”, and his body to be cleansed, forgiven, covered, justified, sanctified, to be Risen in a glorious, sinless, holy, body.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Understanding Jewish belief about the dead, we can see what Solomon was saying. When Jesus was journeying to Bethany to resurrect his friend Lazarus, where did he say Lazarus was?
John 11:11-14…
”After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.

Lazarus’ grieving sister said to him…”Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”….the next part of their conversation was interesting because Martha expressed her view of where Lazarus had gone, according to her Jewish belief….in the resurrection.

”Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”

What is “the resurrection on the last day”?
From their Scripture, Jews believed in a resurrection…not in an immortal soul that departed from the body at death to live somewhere else. The resurrection was a return to life here on earth under the rulership of Messiah’s Kingdom…If you visit a Jewish cemetery, you will often find elaborate tombs designed to catch God’s attention so that he would remember them when the time came for their lives to be restored in Messiah’s kingdom.

If a person was not deemed worthy of a resurrection, their bodies were often thrown into “gehenna” which was Jerusalem’s garbage dump, just outside the city walls. Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the garbage, so any carcasses, of animals or humans were destroyed in gehenna…..what the fires missed, the maggots would finish off. It was a symbol of everlasting death as opposed to everlasting life.

This word “gehenna” was then translated “hell” which was used to support Christendom’s hellfire doctrine. There is no hellfire….there is a place where bodies are “destroyed”, but not tortured. (Matt 10:28)
In order to suffer, you have to be conscious….and Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 was a statement of Jewish belief that stands on its own. Unless you know what Jews believed, you can read into scripture, what is not really there.

They literally believed that they would “sleep in death” until the resurrection. Jesus confirmed it….
”Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”
The dead will be called out of their graves…which means, they haven’t gone anywhere.

Later the apostate Jews adopted the Greek idea of an immortal soul and “Sheol” became “the realm of the dead”…a rather ambiguous term that implied that the dead existed somewhere, but in a conscious state.

Personally I still think the dead is called forth out of their graves now; and has to do with calling forth the Son of God within the heart. The truth of God held shrouded in a tomb called the darkness(deceitfulness)of man’s heart and mind(who hold the truth in unrighteousness)—until the Light of Christ Shines on and in the heart. ‘To give Light to those imprisoned or kept in darkness’. For example in “Awake unto Righteousness and Christ will give you Light”. To me I think of where he told the religious leaders they were like graves which do not appear and men not knowing walk over those graves. I guess I’m suggesting the grave to me is the condition of the heart and mind: being either imprisoned in the night or brought forth into the day, or remaining still in darkness or walking in the Light, or remaining in death or having passed from death unto Life. legion remained in the tombs cutting himself …to me this shows a significance of remaining in darkness, in the night, in death “they opposing themselves”, but Legion came to Jesus Christ and we see Jesus “clothed” him…yes literally he put clothing on his naked body but (Imo) this teaches of a promise that all those good fruits of the Spirit of God: peace, love, joy, faith, brotherly kindness which are by Christ is being “clothed in the New man” and then we see legion “in his right mind” …for God gives not unto us a spirit of fear unto bondage again but the Spirit of Love, of Peace and of a sound mind. But first Legion came out of the tombs from cutting himself… I do see the being called out from the grave as what God spoke of as a promise of “I will give you a new heart and put a new Spirit within you.”

To me those who remain in the grave are those who remain in darkness and death and in the night. Although He said: the night has passed, is passing away….as is the darkness and death.

^ all of that probably sounds crazy or makes no sense to anyone else. That is only how I see it. I do also understand I may be a hundred percent wrong. You said something about how people can make it say whatever they want it to say. I agree with you and sometimes wonder if I do that. I’m only sharing it with you for the purpose of letting you know how there is no way I could be a JW because I already read it so differently. My biggest challenge with JW has always been the teaching of some selected for heaven and some for earth. Although it’s not that different from what I was taught growing up in a southern Baptist church where some will be on thrones as judges with God and others will be judged by those with rods on thrones with Christ.

I can honestly say this though…out of all the Jehovah Witnesses that I’ve met and spoken to I have yet to meet one who says they have been chosen for heaven. They all say their place is on the restored earth. So I’ve never met or spoken to someone selected for heaven.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Understanding Jewish belief about the dead, we can see what Solomon was saying. When Jesus was journeying to Bethany to resurrect his friend Lazarus, where did he say Lazarus was?
John 11:11-14…
”After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.

Lazarus’ grieving sister said to him…”Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”….the next part of their conversation was interesting because Martha expressed her view of where Lazarus had gone, according to her Jewish belief….in the resurrection.

”Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”

What is “the resurrection on the last day”?
From their Scripture, Jews believed in a resurrection…not in an immortal soul that departed from the body at death to live somewhere else. The resurrection was a return to life here on earth under the rulership of Messiah’s Kingdom…If you visit a Jewish cemetery, you will often find elaborate tombs designed to catch God’s attention so that he would remember them when the time came for their lives to be restored in Messiah’s kingdom.

If a person was not deemed worthy of a resurrection, their bodies were often thrown into “gehenna” which was Jerusalem’s garbage dump, just outside the city walls. Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the garbage, so any carcasses, of animals or humans were destroyed in gehenna…..what the fires missed, the maggots would finish off. It was a symbol of everlasting death as opposed to everlasting life.

This word “gehenna” was then translated “hell” which was used to support Christendom’s hellfire doctrine. There is no hellfire….there is a place where bodies are “destroyed”, but not tortured. (Matt 10:28)
In order to suffer, you have to be conscious….and Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 was a statement of Jewish belief that stands on its own. Unless you know what Jews believed, you can read into scripture, what is not really there.

They literally believed that they would “sleep in death” until the resurrection. Jesus confirmed it….
”Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”
The dead will be called out of their graves…which means, they haven’t gone anywhere.

Later the apostate Jews adopted the Greek idea of an immortal soul and “Sheol” became “the realm of the dead”…a rather ambiguous term that implied that the dead existed somewhere, but in a conscious state.

How my mind works …right or wrong. Concerning Lazarus
John 11:43 Lexicon: When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth."



John 11:44 Lexicon: The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."



John 11:44 Lexicon: The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."



My mind goes immediately to “grave clothes”. Irrelevant? I don’t think so. “Grave clothes” or “wrappings” or bindings that cover “a corpse”.

To me that is very vivid image “a corpse” in “grave clothes”

Maybe I can at least explain to you and others my struggle over whether or not to let others dictate how or what I want to learn from a passage. For example “how does this apply to my daily walk? What can I learn from it?” Often times there are those that scream at you because they say it doesn’t fit their theology. I’m not meaning you. But I don’t understand what harm I have done by exploring what it says to me?

“Grave clothes” covering “a corpse”
One view is: it’s this old flesh we see in the mirror as we age that wears out, and as you said goes into the grave and becomes worm food—is all there is to a Hope in a promise of better “grave clothes” …like will we get eternal bodies in place of these fragile ones? Because those imperfections in the mirror are becoming less attractive and less desirable. all the focus on that grave, that casket, that grave clothing…

But to me there is another definition for “Grave clothes” covering “a corpse”
Colossians 3:8-11
But now you also put off all of these(grave clothes); anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. [9] Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man (grave clothes) with his deeds; [10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: [11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Ephesians 4:22-25 That you put off(the grave clothes) concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; [24] And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. [25] Wherefore putting away(the grave clothes) lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

To me that is a more helpful definition for “Grave clothes” covering, binding “a corpse” and truly what Jesus Christ was preparing them for in calling Lazarus forth out of the grave.

To me I have to ask: does “‘the new man created in righteousness and true holiness’ ‘renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him’ cover “a corpse”? This all helps me more than considering the woman I see in the mirror growing older and considering when she will go in the grave …considering her “Grave clothes” then makes no difference, because as you said some are cremated. Some are mauled by predators. But I want to understand why today…right now… I feel as if I’m “a corpse” still very much “bound” and “wrapped tight” in the same “Grave clothes” of malice, lying, lust, filthy community communications and all the rest.

 

[keithr]

Life of the SOUL IS Gods BREATH, and belongs to God. Gods Breath, Gods Spirit can NOT DIE.

Bible translations can be confusing when they translate the same word to multiple different meanings. God brought Adam, and all the animals, to life by causing them to start breathing. Thus Adam became a living soul once he had started breathing and his lifeless body started functioning.

All souls DEPARTED from a DEAD body continue LIVING outside of the DEAD body.
(Gen 35:18. 1 Kings 17: 21-22)

Genesis 35:18 (WEB):

(18) As her soul was departing (for she died), she named him Benoni, but his father named him Benjamin.​

This verse doesn't say anything about people continuing to live after they have died (which is a contradiction of what it means to be dead - if you continue to live after you have died, then you have not died!). The Hebrew word translated as soul is nephesh, which means 'a breathing creature' (it comes from the root word naphash, meaning 'to take breath, refresh oneself'), and it has been translated as soul, self, breath, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion, and other meanings. In the above verse it is more logically translated as the GNB renders it:

(18) But she was dying, and as she breathed her last, she named her son Benoni, but his father named him Benjamin.​

1 Kings 17:21-22 (WEB):

(21) He stretched himself on the child three times, and cried to Yahweh, and said, “Yahweh my God, please let this child’s soul come into him again.”​

(22) Yahweh listened to the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.​

Again, these verses don't say anything about people continuing to live after they have died, and the word translated as soul is nephesh. It should be more sensibly translated as:

1 Kings 17:21-22 (GNB):

(21) Then Elijah stretched himself out on the boy three times and prayed, "O LORD my God, restore this child to life!"​

(22) The LORD answered Elijah's prayer; the child started breathing again and revived.​

or ESV:

(21) Then he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let this child's life come into him again.”​

(22) And the LORD listened to the voice of Elijah. And the life of the child came into him again, and he revived.​

Yes living animals possess Sinless Living souls IN their living body’s.

God breathed the "breath of life" (not His spirit, or breath, for God does not breath air), and then the animated Adam is referred to as a "living creature". He becomes a living soul, not a soul living in a body:

Genesis 2:7 (WEB):

(7) Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

Genesis 2:7 (ESV):

(7) then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.​

Genesis 2:7 (TLV):

(7) Then Adonai Elohim formed the man out of the dust from the ground and He breathed into his nostrils a breath of life—so the man became a living being.​

It's confusing because in the New Testament it uses the word 'soul' as that part of our being which lives in the body - Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

As the Online Bible Greek Lexicon puts it, the word psuche that is translated as soul, can refer to "the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)". I regard that as a spirit part, i.e. it cannot be killed/destroyed by any physical means, and only God can destroy it.

And when their body’s DIE, their living soul Departs their dead body, and Enter INTO Gods Heavenly Kingdom, to be WITH God forever.

In the Bible, the only earthly beings that are promised the possiblilty of a home in heaven are Christians, believers in and followers of Jesus the Messiah, and they will be given a spirit body and become part of a new creation of God (2 Corinthians 5:17), and will share in our Messiah's inheritance from God. That's why they have to become spirit beings and live in heaven, in order to inherit God's Kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:50 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The “reward” here is the Hebrew word for “wages” indicating that their useful life as hired laborers was finished….they could earn no more income. The dead are actually dead.

I do think of when He spoke of the Pharisees that they wanted to be seen of others and praised of men saying “they have their reward”. But I’ve been there. I’ve hungered for acceptance and approval. I’ve just never had that quality of being admirable. Scary…but I may have willingly taken it (so hungry for it), if I had ever been offered it. The Pharisees and religious leaders advanced to their positions. I struggle with the mentality in this world too where if we are a go-getter and have the qualifications to advance well, you can climb to well respected positions. There is something about this world that yells at you that you lack the necessary qualifications to thrive and if you could just try harder you could be someone of great influence much like the Pharisees mind set. To me some people may not have those qualities in them to be big succeeders and to be honest that makes me sad. point is …I can sort of relate to the Pharisees and religious rulers great conflict of being scared to death Jesus Christ was going to move their seats to the bottom.

 

[Cassandra]

From the New World Translation, and just for you keith:

Ecc3:18-21 18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place.+ They all come from the dust,+ and they all are returning to the dust.+ 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?
.

 

[keithr]

From the New World Translation, and just for you keith:

Ecc3:18-21 18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome* for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.+ As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.+ So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place.+ They all come from the dust,+ and they all are returning to the dust.+ 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?

Why are you quoting from the NWT just for me? I am not a Jehovah's Witness!

The Hebrew word translated in verse 21 as spirit is ruach, not the word nephesh that was used in all the Old testament verses referred to in my previous post.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Interesting word “preeminence”….in Hebrew it is “môṯār” which is used only three times in the Hebrew Scriptures…once as “profit” and twice as “advantage”. So if we replace “preeminence” with “advantage” in that verse, what then is this saying? Humans die the same death as animals. We have no advantage over them in death as we all go to the same place…Sheol. (Eccl 9:5, 10) "the grave" where we all end up.….but it is a place of complete inactivity.…no ability to plan, to think or to act in any way….just a peaceful and restful “sleep”.

I’m all over the place. To be honest I’m overwhelmed by all the information you have shared. You give great consideration to what I share with you, then you answer consistently. I did read all you posted. The above about “we have no advantage over them in death as we all go to the same place” “a place of complete inactivity…no ability to plan, or think or act in any way”
^ the above makes me think of: Going down into the “pit of nothingness”. I connect “nothingness” because of “a place of complete inactivity” “no ability to plan, or think or act in any way”
To me that is “nothingingness”


Isaiah 38:17 Lexicon: "Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is You who has kept my soul from the pit of nothingness, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.

Isaiah 38:18 Lexicon: "For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.

Yet is there no hope? whether those in the pit of nothingness can praise you? I think they can when Jesus Christ pulled the animal that had fallen into a pit on the sabbath. They got angry because he rescued an ox on the sabbath. He asked them a good question: is the Sabbath “rest” to destroy a life, or to save it.
Psalm 139:8 Lexicon: If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

Psalm 139:9 Lexicon: If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,


Psalm 139:10 Lexicon: Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.

Psalm 139:11 Lexicon: If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,"


Psalm 139:12 Lexicon: Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.

Either God is who he said he is…”one” entity…...and Jesus is the “son of God”, which is what he said he is…or we are being lied to.

personally, I have no problem with Jesus Christ being One with the Father in agreement, mind and voice. I also don’t have any problem that New Jerusalem which is above and the mother of us all also being One with the Father and the Son. I look at the Body of Christ and how it’s supposed to be “One Body” “One voice” “One mind” . Not all the quarrels and divisions and envy. You said: either God is One entity and Jesus Christ the Son or we are being lied to.

I feel either we are “One entity” joined and tempered together into “One”: the head which is Christ and the Body which is many members having different Gifts within the “One same Entity” but all by the same “One entity”’that was in Christ which is the Spirit(Enity) of God the Father….or we have been lied to.
In the same thought
God is One entity—>and Jesus the Son. I’m not sure why Jesus the Son has to be separated from the entity (Spirit) of God?
I get you may disagree. But I still will never get how it’s such a shame when what we really say we desire for the church of God is that they become “One” entity. Also I’m not sure why we are using the word “entity” instead of “One Spirit” even Jesus prayed: “that they may become One as we are One.” But no…we see clearly it’s all divided and many minds, many voices, many belief, many quarrels, ….I’m sorry but to me that is a contradiction to say we wish the church was or is “One” but at the same time are mid-set is God the Father and the Son are better as not being of One entity. The Father and the Son didn’t declare a relationship of division. The entry of God and the Son didn’t promote division promote…but a becoming of One Spirit.

Another interesting verse as the “preeminence“ here is a different word, “prōteuō” which has a similar meaning…to “hold first place”. Being “the firstborn from the dead” didn’t mean that Jesus was the fist man to be resurrected, but the first to attain to spirit life upon his resurrection, opening the way for others to join him in heaven later.

….you said: Being “the firstborn from the dead” didn’t mean that Jesus was the fist man to be resurrected, but the first to attain to spirit life upon his resurrection, opening the way for others to join him in heaven later.

^ thank you because I’ve never noticed this. How it didn’t mean He was the first Resurrected, but the first to attain to spirit life upon his resurrection. So I wonder why we think it’s vital for the opposite to be true of the Spirit of God and the Son than what we say our hope is for the members of the Body.

 

[Taken]

Bible translations can be confusing when they translate the same word to multiple different meanings. God brought Adam, and all the animals, to life by causing them to start breathing. Thus Adam became a living soul once he had started breathing and his lifeless body started functioning.


Genesis 35:18 (WEB):

(18) As her soul was departing (for she died), she named him Benoni, but his father named him Benjamin.​

This verse doesn't say anything about people continuing to live after they have died (which is a contradiction of what it means to be dead - if you continue to live after you have died, then you have not died!). The Hebrew word translated as soul is nephesh, which means 'a breathing creature' (it comes from the root word naphash, meaning 'to take breath, refresh oneself'), and it has been translated as soul, self, breath, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion, and other meanings. In the above verse it is more logically translated as the GNB renders it:

(18) But she was dying, and as she breathed her last, she named her son Benoni, but his father named him Benjamin.​

1 Kings 17:21-22 (WEB):

(21) He stretched himself on the child three times, and cried to Yahweh, and said, “Yahweh my God, please let this child’s soul come into him again.”​

(22) Yahweh listened to the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.​

Again, these verses don't say anything about people continuing to live after they have died, and the word translated as soul is nephesh. It should be more sensibly translated as:

1 Kings 17:21-22 (GNB):

(21) Then Elijah stretched himself out on the boy three times and prayed, "O LORD my God, restore this child to life!"​

(22) The LORD answered Elijah's prayer; the child started breathing again and revived.​

or ESV:

(21) Then he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let this child's life come into him again.”​

(22) And the LORD listened to the voice of Elijah. And the life of the child came into him again, and he revived.​

God breathed the "breath of life" (not His spirit, or breath, for God does not breath air), and then the animated Adam is referred to as a "living creature". He becomes a living soul, not a soul living in a body:

Genesis 2:7 (WEB):

(7) Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

Genesis 2:7 (ESV):

(7) then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.​

Genesis 2:7 (TLV):

(7) Then Adonai Elohim formed the man out of the dust from the ground and He breathed into his nostrils a breath of life—so the man became a living being.​

It's confusing because in the New Testament it uses the word 'soul' as that part of our being which lives in the body - Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

As the Online Bible Greek Lexicon puts it, the word psuche that is translated as soul, can refer to "the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)". I regard that as a spirit part, i.e. it cannot be killed/destroyed by any physical means, and only God can destroy it.


In the Bible, the only earthly beings that are promised the possiblilty of a home in heaven are Christians, believers in and followers of Jesus the Messiah, and they will be given a spirit body and become part of a new creation of God (2 Corinthians 5:17), and will share in our Messiah's inheritance from God. That's why they have to become spirit beings and live in heaven, in order to inherit God's Kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:50 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

Learn what a PERSON IS, and IS NOT.
I did not speak of people or persons.

The body and soul and spirit are three Different things.
A body has it’s life.
A soul has it’s life.
A spirit has it’s life.

If you learn the basics, you may being to Understand a spiritual converstion.

God is Spirit…His word, His body, His breath, His 7 Spirits…are ALL the SAME ONE SPIRIT.

God Bless you,
Taken

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Disagree.

Life of man IS BLOOD, and sentenced TO DIE.
(Gen 9:4-5)

Life of the SOUL IS Gods BREATH, and belongs to God. Gods Breath, Gods Spirit can NOT DIE.

All souls Belong to God.
Ezek 18:4)

All souls, belong to God, and the Life of the soul IMPARTED into a BODY, belongs to God.

All souls DEPARTED from a DEAD body continue LIVING outside of the DEAD body.
(Gen 35:18. 1 Kings 17: 21-220

Departed Living souls, CONTINUE LIVING…with God or without God IN Hell.


Departed Living souls, IN Heaven With God, ARE “souls” which:
Either;
never sinned
Or “souls”
forgiven their sin of having been against God.

Animals HAVE souls, with Gods Breath of Life IN THEM.
Animals HAVE NOT THE capacity, to know God, to learn about God, to love God, to praise God, to worship God, to believe in God.
Therefore they have NO capacity to SIN against God, for which they otherwise would require SOUL forgiveness of God For their soul to enter Gods Heavenly Kingdom.

Yes living animals possess Sinless Living souls IN their living body’s. And when their body’s DIE, their living soul Departs their dead body, and Enter INTO Gods Heavenly Kingdom, to be WITH God forever.

It is the FLESH of manKIND that became corrupted, thus corrupted his soul within his flesh and requires forgiveness in ORDER for his SOUL to be “restored” (Pss 23:3), his SPIRIT to become “born again”, and his body to be cleansed, forgiven, covered, justified, sanctified, to be Risen in a glorious, sinless, holy, body.

Glory to God,
Taken

Animals were not made in teh image of God. they are not immortal as man is. Jesus did not die for animals.

 

[Aunty Jane]

all of that probably sounds crazy or makes no sense to anyone else. That is only how I see it.

How we “see” scripture has to agree with all of scripture. The Bible is one story after all, with one author, so it has to be coherent…..and like all stories, it has a beginning, a middle and an end…..otherwise we are stuck in a maze with no logical way out…trapped by our imagination or the appeal of someone else’s teachings.

We know the beginning of the story in Genesis, how sin entered into the world through disobedience…..the actions of one man plunged the world into a situation that only God could remedy. (Rom 5:12) But, right at the outset, God had a solution already thought out, should the gift of free will be abused. Enter the role of God’s son as man’s Redeemer. Understanding how redemption works is important.

The Revelation tells us how it all ends, with a restoration of all that we lost in Genesis…..the middle is how God accomplished it….so in essence, it is not a difficult concept unless we complicate it with imagination and trying to read into scripture, things that are not really there…..it can do our head in.

In the church system, we have theological collages turning out ordained ministers who have degrees of study, but who are versed only in church doctrine, not really any great study in Scripture except the verses they can manipulate to support their doctrines.

Debating with those people reveals that beyond their training, they flounder and cannot answer the “difficult” questions. Someone like me was a nightmare to them because I asked all the difficult questions and never got a straight answer. That is what sent me on a mission to find the truth. The catalyst for that was the sudden death of my father…..all that the church taught about death, terrified me and I needed some answers. JW’s we’re the only ones who sat down with me and allowed me to read the answers for myself, in my own Bible. They never once said “I think” this means such and such, but allowed the Bible to answer for itself.

I try to do that now myself, because I know what power the scriptures have. (Heb 4:11-13)

I understand I may be a hundred percent wrong. You said something about how people can make it say whatever they want it to say. I agree with you and sometimes wonder if I do that. I’m only sharing it with you for the purpose of letting you know how there is no way I could be a JW because I already read it so differently.

I understand completely….but to try to read into it what the Bible writers may never have said, is a form of self delusion…..who of us wants to be misled, even by our own heart? That treacherous part of our sinful humanity that the devil can manipulate by tapping into our emotions. (Jer 17:9-10) He knows us better than we know ourselves.

Sometimes it’s the simplicity that is genuinely beautiful. If it is read like the story that it is, why do we want to complicate it?…that is the devil’s playground. He loves confusion….

I can honestly say this though…out of all the Jehovah Witnesses that I’ve met and spoken to I have yet to meet one who says they have been chosen for heaven. They all say their place is on the restored earth. So I’ve never met or spoken to someone selected for heaven.

It would be strange to us if those of the anointed were numerous at this point in time, when we are staring down the barrel of this world’s “end”. The majority of those who have an assignment in heaven are already in place waiting for the remaining ones of their number to join them, so that God’s Kingdom can bring all things back into harmony with God’s original purpose for mankind. (Isa 55:11)

The very fact that there are two classes of ”Christians” is clearly stated in the scriptures.….and those who are destined for a role in heaven are chosen and anointed by God’s spirit….it is not something one can volunteer for……so why would we be envious of their choosing when we have the prospect of everlasting life in paradise on earth (God’s first purpose) serving our God in the role he originally intended for us? We will be ruled by the best government that we have ever had!
It is what is programmed into our psyche…..peace and harmony among all humanity and with all of God’s creatures as it was meant to be.

I used to worry that God would take me to heaven when I didn’t want to go there….I wanted to stay here on earth, and when I studied the Bible with the Witnesses, I was relieved to find out that this was normal. Heaven to most people is paradise, complete with animals….so then I understood that God’s original purpose for the human race was never in heaven…it was always here, where he put us in the first place. He carefully and lovingly prepared this tiny planet just for us…..what a gift. It was never supposed to be a training ground for heaven, where it is widely believed that ‘the real life’ is to be lived…..that was never in the plan.

Wanting to live in paradise is normal….going to heaven is not. It requires what their anointing reveals to them….an inordinate desire to be with their Lord in heaven…..in a completely different realm, in a completely different body…..with very serious responsibilities……and this is what the apostles described…that longing was so powerful that they wished for death.

We are all exposed to the truth, but only receptive hearts will be “drawn” by God to his truth. (John 6:44) We cannot come to Christ without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65)

 

[Peterlag]

There are near death experiences where people see Jesus and go into heaven and look around and see lots of animals. So I believe it.

When we die we go into the grave and not into heaven. So nobody almost died and almost saw heaven.

 

[Peterlag]

My dog has not been responding to the gospel... I witnessed to him and told him to wag once for YES indicating he accepts Jesus as his Lord and savior so he can be a born again puppie... or wag twice if he is not interested.... he just looks at me blankly and does not wag his tail at all.

So, ya'll pray for my puppie!

I'll let him think it over and I'll witness to him again again and hopefully he'll wag once and become a born again puppie!

Do you think If I can get him born again, maybe he'll quit peeing on the carpet?

And, if he gets filled with the Holy Ghost will he... bark in other barks? View attachment 41759

Bark in other barks... now that's funny.

 

[Peterlag]

Interesting topic @Cassandra…..everything in us wants to believe that our pets don’t just die and that’s it……after all, we have convinced ourselves that we don’t really die either…..yet that is not what Adam was told.

Gen 2:16…
”God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

In sentencing Adam for his sin, God said…
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)
There is no mention of an afterlife of any kind.…just a return to where Adam was before God created him.

Solomon wrote in Eccl 3:20-21..
” I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.” (Eccl 3,18-20)

We humans have no advantage over the animals in death…..
The “spirit“ that we share is “the breath of life”, given to every creature at their creation. It is what makes them and us a “soul”. When we breathe our last breath, the soul dies. (Ezek 18:4)

So, what does the Bible really tell us about the death of animals?
Since humans were the only “souls” to be promised “everlasting life”, we are also the only creatures who can foresee our own death and contemplate what that means. (Hence the penalty for taking the forbidden fruit) Death is not in an animals mind, even when instinct makes them run away from a predator. Instinct in the animal kingdom does not include any great ability to plan or to imagine an outcome….which means that humans alone can contemplate death as a foreseeable reality. Animals succumb or death as a natural part of ”the circle of life”. (Credit to the Lion King)

God did not created animals to live eternally…..they have a finite existence and a life expectancy that they cannot know. Some animals who herd in family groups can appear to mourn the loss of a family member, but it is not the same grief that humans experience, knowing in advance that they will die or in watching someone they love succumb to a terminal illness.
Death in a troop is acknowledged, but mourning is brief as opposed to humans who can sometimes grieve for the rest of their Ives. Death to us is an “enemy” according to Scripture. To animals it is a certainty that they cannot acknowledge. They may fret for a lost companion, but they just miss them as a daily part of their life that has now changed.

The Genesis account tells us that all earthly creatures were at first vegetarians (Gen 1:29-30)…..so, no creature killed another for food. The only meat eaters were carrion creatures designed by God to clean up other creatures who died. Everything eventually breaks down and returns to the earth, which is designed to regenerate life, perpetually.

So our beloved pets die a natural death that is programmed into them……we humans were not programmed for death, so it seems foreign to us even though every human who has ever lived, eventually died. We were not supposed to because death was a penalty, not a foregone conclusion.

Animals will always share our lives and bring joy to us, because they were put on this earth to be our companions…..animals do not exist in heaven because they are flesh, like we are, designed for life on planet Earth.

We can love them while we have them, but their loss will not cause us grief in the new world to come…
Nothing will spoil life in the paradise restored by its loving Creator. (Isa 65:17-25)

You write well.

 

[Triumph1300]

As far as witnessing to your dog:
You need to "bark in the spirit", maybe your dog will respond.
People barked at the Toronto Blessing Revival Meetings.



(Of course what that was all about is another story.)

 

[Taken]

Animals were not made in teh image of God. they are not immortal as man is. Jesus did not die for animals.

Ofcourse, man was made in the IMAGE of God. THE BODY…We know man’s body walks upright on two feet, has two arms, etc. And multiple scriptures reveal the knowledge about God…
Walking, talking, eating, drinking, etc.

Man was made in the LIKENESS of God.
Ie. Capability of THE BODY.
Thinking, reasoning, comprehending, understanding, choosing, liking, disliking, etc.

The LIVING SOUL, (in a man) ie. BODY, gives that body, the ABILITY to USE it’s SENSES, “sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste, feeling”…
And SO ALSO DO Animals….have a SOUL, (Gods breath of life), that they also see, “hear, smell, touch, taste, feel”.

While an ANIMAL can be taught COMMANDS….they LACK THE LIKENESS OF God and manKIND, in that they can not Comprehend the concept of BELIEF IN God, Nor are they THUS given the gift of FAITH,
Nor can they SIN (which IS to disbelieve IN the Lord God).
THEY neither BELIEVE or DISBELIEVE.
But they DO HAVE A SOUL (Gods breath of Life).

Can you comprehend…?
THEY…? Animals two and two.
Wherein IS the breath of Life.


Gen 7
[15] And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

God has an ORDER and WAY of revealing His Knowledge. Little by Little, Bit by Bit, SAME as a man teaches a new born babe, a toddler, a youth, a teen….all in preparation to be an ADULT who has Gods Truth, BEFORE he is exposed to the CORRUPT men “OF” this world. And we see the miserable FAILURE and RESULTS of the millions of children having grown into adult-hood without the TRUTH, and falling for corrupt, idiotic, mindful nonsense and utterly poor (lacking) in spirit and continuing on with their corrupt soul, seeing and doing unspeakable dastardly things, and being proud and boastful of their deeds. Shameful.

God Bless you,
Taken