The 144,000 before God at the end.

[brightfame52]

No, I am not. They are saved through faith in Christ not by race. I already told you that but you decided to ignore it and continue this false strawman fallacy.

Yes you are, since you believe and declare the 144 000 in Rev 7, a Salvation verse, that they are ethnic jews only. Now strawman that !

 

[brightfame52]

No, you are missing the point that election to salvation is God's choice, not about flesh at all.

You cant believe that and insist the 144 000 in Rev 7 is confined to ethnic jews, and doesnt include all nations, tongues as in Vs 9-10

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

These verses are the interpretation of exactly who the 144 000 are ! Its the fulfillment of Gods Promise to Abraham here Gen 15:4-6

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[Timtofly]

You cant believe that and insist the 144 000 in Rev 7 is confined to ethnic jews, and doesnt include all nations, tongues as in Vs 9-10

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

These verses are the interpretation of exactly who the 144 000 are ! Its the fulfillment of Gods Promise to Abraham here Gen 15:4-6

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Both are literal. A literal multitude in heaven of all nations, tongues, and people.

A literal 144k sealed from the 12 tribes of Jacob on the earth.

Are you a literal person, or just a representative of all those currently in heaven? Should we pretend you are literally the millions currently enjoying Paradise, and not a person somewhere currently on earth?

You would still be saved either way, but one way is you, and the other is you are everyone else. Are you everyone else, like you claim the 144k future humans represent everyone?

The point you are missing is that the entire church had just been glorified in the air in front of the entire earth. The 144k are still on earth being sealed by angels.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes you are, since you believe and declare the 144 000 in Rev 7, a Salvation verse, that they are ethnic jews only.

You don't know what you are talking about and your use of a strawman over and over and this "salvation verse" nonsense tells everyone how poorly you understand this scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Both are literal. A literal multitude in heaven of all nations, tongues, and people.

A literal 144k sealed from the 12 tribes of Jacob on the earth.

Are you a literal person, or just a representative of all those currently in heaven? Should we pretend you are literally the millions currently enjoying Paradise, and not a person somewhere currently on earth?

You would still be saved either way, but one way is you, and the other is you are everyone else. Are you everyone else, like you claim the 144k future humans represent everyone?

The point you are missing is that the entire church had just been glorified in the air in front of the entire earth. The 144k are still on earth being sealed by angels.

Okay so you believe a false notion that Salvation for some is conditioned on ethnicity, the flesh. Thats denies Salvation by Grace

 

[brightfame52]

You don't know what you are talking about and your use of a strawman over and over and this "salvation verse" nonsense tells everyone how poorly you understand this scripture.

you believe and declare the 144 000 in Rev 7, a Salvation verse, that they are ethnic jews only. Now strawman that ! Promoting Salvation because of race

 

[Timtofly]

Okay so you believe a false notion that Salvation for some is conditioned on ethnicity, the flesh. Thats denies Salvation by Grace

This is God's choice, not a false notion. This is not accepting Salvation by faith and then living in sinful dead physical bodies.

These 144k are changed out of Adam's flesh, and given a permanent incorruptible physical body. They serve God on the earth, while the church waits in heaven. They will never sin nor physically die, after that point they are sealed. It is not based on ethnicity as that is your false notion. They are the last of Jacob's offspring redeemed from the curse of Adam's disobedience.

Along with a remnant of sheep who reign during the Day of the Lord.

This is not about the Second Birth into the family of God, the mixed multitude. This is about serving Jesus, and they go wherever Jesus goes from that point on.

The church has been those redeemed out of Adam's offspring from Enoch until the Second Coming. The nation of Israel in the OT was born into the church physically. That was not God being racist. The church was physically Israel, like every other congregation since the Cross became a spiritual family. Being born into the church did not mean they were perfect, without sin. As long as they kept their part of the Covenant, they remained as natural branches. Many were cut off, and left the OT church. But that was a physical church with physical works as the economy. Even though it had spiritual elements of faith and the grace of God.

After the Cross, all humanity had to have the second birth, to get to the same point Israel was with a physical birth, prior to the Cross. That is the difference between a natural branch from birth, and a wild branch that had to be grafted in. The wild branches were grafted in, in the OT by submitting to the OT Covenant.

Now after the Cross, all, even Israel had to be grafted in. No one was born physically into the family of God. So stop making up this strawman argument that Salvation is about a race or ethnicity. God chose all of Jacob's offspring, when Jacob wrestled with Jesus and was named Israel. Many since then have rejected God, and their ethnicity, nor race could save them one iota.

 

[brightfame52]

This is God's choice, not a false notion. This is not accepting Salvation by faith and then living in sinful dead physical bodies.

These 144k are changed out of Adam's flesh, and given a permanent incorruptible physical body. They serve God on the earth, while the church waits in heaven. They will never sin nor physically die, after that point they are sealed. It is not based on ethnicity as that is your false notion. They are the last of Jacob's offspring redeemed from the curse of Adam's disobedience.

Along with a remnant of sheep who reign during the Day of the Lord.

This is not about the Second Birth into the family of God, the mixed multitude. This is about serving Jesus, and they go wherever Jesus goes from that point on.

The church has been those redeemed out of Adam's offspring from Enoch until the Second Coming. The nation of Israel in the OT was born into the church physically. That was not God being racist. The church was physically Israel, like every other congregation since the Cross became a spiritual family. Being born into the church did not mean they were perfect, without sin. As long as they kept their part of the Covenant, they remained as natural branches. Many were cut off, and left the OT church. But that was a physical church with physical works as the economy. Even though it had spiritual elements of faith and the grace of God.

After the Cross, all humanity had to have the second birth, to get to the same point Israel was with a physical birth, prior to the Cross. That is the difference between a natural branch from birth, and a wild branch that had to be grafted in. The wild branches were grafted in, in the OT by submitting to the OT Covenant.

Now after the Cross, all, even Israel had to be grafted in. No one was born physically into the family of God. So stop making up this strawman argument that Salvation is about a race or ethnicity. God chose all of Jacob's offspring, when Jacob wrestled with Jesus and was named Israel. Many since then have rejected God, and their ethnicity, nor race could save them one iota.

Its not Gods choice to save people based upon ethnicity, the flesh, Gods choice is to save by Grace,

Okay so you believe a false notion that Salvation for some is conditioned on ethnicity, the flesh. Thats denies Salvation by Grace

 

[Timtofly]

Its not Gods choice to save people based upon ethnicity, the flesh, Gods choice is to save by Grace,

Okay so you believe a false notion that Salvation for some is conditioned on ethnicity, the flesh. Thats denies Salvation by Grace

So you think the angels themselves decided to redeem those 144k, because they were from the tribes of Jacob?

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

So the angels were going against God's choice?

 

[brightfame52]

So you think the angels themselves decided to redeem those 144k, because they were from the tribes of Jacob?

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

So the angels were going against God's choice?

you believe a false notion that Salvation for some is conditioned on ethnicity, the flesh. Thats denies Salvation by Grace

 

[Keraz]

the angels themselves decided to redeem those 144k, because they were from the tribes of Jacob?

What needs to be realized, is that the ancient tribes are long gone and no one can tell which; if any, tribe they belong to. The fact is: we all are descendants of the Patriarchs.
When the Lords faithful peoples gather into the holy Land, they will be divided into 12 groups, according to their characteristics and duties.

John sees that multitude in Rev 7:9 and the Lord will select out of them, from each group; 12,000 people to be His witnesses to proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

 

[Davy]

What needs to be realized, is that the ancient tribes are long gone and no one can tell which; if any, tribe they belong to.

God Himself can tell. He knows the heritage of the ten lost tribes of Israel, even though they themselves have lost their heritage as part of old Israel.

Amos 9:9
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
KJV

The "house of Israel" after the split of 1 Kings 11 represents 'only'... the northern ten tribes of Israel that were scattered to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, and then further in stages into Asia Minor and Europe.

 

[ewq1938]

What needs to be realized, is that the ancient tribes are long gone and no one can tell which; if any, tribe they belong to.

God can and did when he told us about the 144k.

 

[Timtofly]

you believe a false notion that Salvation for some is conditioned on ethnicity, the flesh. Thats denies Salvation by Grace

No. Those declared in Revelation 7, are called out for a purpose. Not saved because they are Jacob's offspring.

You are saying that because Jesus was born an offspring of Jacob, that God was racist, and Jesus should have been born from a different race instead.

You are saying it is wrong that Daniel wrote the book of Daniel, but that someone in Babylon, not an offspring of Jacob, should have wrote about Jacob's offspring being held captive, as punishment from God.

You are saying those 144k of Jacob represent all nations as the church. I am saying no, they are just a few chosen people at the Second Coming, that follow King Jesus every where He goes, like the 12 disciples in the first century. You are making this redemption about race, not me.

Did the 12 disciples literally exist, or would that be too racist of God to redeem them because they were the offspring of Jacob? Are we racist to say they were redeemed? Perhaps you think there were no 12 disciples, but they were merely symbolic of the church of all nations and tongues, in the first century?

 

[brightfame52]

No. Those declared in Revelation 7, are called out for a purpose. Not saved because they are Jacob's offspring.

You are saying that because Jesus was born an offspring of Jacob, that God was racist, and Jesus should have been born from a different race instead.

You are saying it is wrong that Daniel wrote the book of Daniel, but that someone in Babylon, not an offspring of Jacob, should have wrote about Jacob's offspring being held captive, as punishment from God.

You are saying those 144k of Jacob represent all nations as the church. I am saying no, they are just a few chosen people at the Second Coming, that follow King Jesus every where He goes, like the 12 disciples in the first century. You are making this redemption about race, not me.

Did the 12 disciples literally exist, or would that be too racist of God to redeem them because they were the offspring of Jacob? Are we racist to say they were redeemed? Perhaps you think there were no 12 disciples, but they were merely symbolic of the church of all nations and tongues, in the first century?

you believe a false notion that Salvation for some is conditioned on ethnicity, the flesh. Thats denies Salvation by Grace

 

[Keraz]

God Himself can tell. He knows the heritage of the ten lost tribes of Israel, even though they themselves have lost their heritage as part of old Israel.

God does have a secret and we can only guess from the historical record, from archaeological sites, from linguistic and heraldic clues, who and where they are today.
But Jesus made all that irrelevant to us when He offered Salvation to all who would accept it.

John saw the vast multitude of Christians in the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal disaster depopulated all that area. Rev 7:9
They are people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Ethnicity has nothing to do with their being there.

It is logical and fits the narrative, to see how the 144,000 will be selected out of the multitude. As per Revelation 14:1-5
That they are on earth is proved by Revelation 14:2 I heard a sound from heaven.......

Therefore: the multitude of Overcomers for God. literally His Israelite peoples; must be divided into 12 groups and they obviously will be named after each of Jacobs sons. Ezekiel 48:1-29 sets out the areas allotted to each tribal group.

 

[Timtofly]

you believe a false notion that Salvation for some is conditioned on ethnicity, the flesh. Thats denies Salvation by Grace

You created that false notion, as I never brought it up. Now you are a broken record stating your own belief over and over.

 

[brightfame52]

You created that false notion, as I never brought it up. Now you are a broken record stating your own belief over and over.

How is it a false notion ? You have admitted that you believe the 144000 of Rev 7 a Salvation context is limited to ethnic jews. Isnt that what you believe ?

 

[Timtofly]

How is it a false notion ? You have admitted that you believe the 144000 of Rev 7 a Salvation context is limited to ethnic jews. Isnt that what you believe ?

Who states it is a Salvation context based on race other than you? You are arguing that point, no one else.

Do you have a choice to accept or reject Salvation? Is that choice based on your race?

I never said the 144k are limited to Jacob's offspring. The word limited is not the point. Saying "limited" is the same argument those 144k represent all of humanity since Adam.

How can a described group of humans after the Second Coming represent all humans from the last 6,000 years?

Redemption is in regard to being changed out of Adam's dead flesh, and that happens after physical death. These 144k are not just professing a "Salvation". These 144k have been removed from temporal corruptible physical bodies into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That is the symbolism of being sealed/changed by angels. The same process happens at physical death for all redeemed humans with faith in Christ.

The difference is these 144k now go, on the earth or off the earth, with Jesus, wherever He goes per Revelation 14:1-5

 

[brightfame52]

Who states it is a Salvation context based on race other than you? You are arguing that point, no one else.

Do you have a choice to accept or reject Salvation? Is that choice based on your race?

I never said the 144k are limited to Jacob's offspring. The word limited is not the point. Saying "limited" is the same argument those 144k represent all of humanity since Adam.

How can a described group of humans after the Second Coming represent all humans from the last 6,000 years?

Redemption is in regard to being changed out of Adam's dead flesh, and that happens after physical death. These 144k are not just professing a "Salvation". These 144k have been removed from temporal corruptible physical bodies into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That is the symbolism of being sealed/changed by angels. The same process happens at physical death for all redeemed humans with faith in Christ.

The difference is these 144k now go, on the earth or off the earth, with Jesus, wherever He goes per Revelation 14:1-5

How could it not be a salvation context ? As well as Rev 14 and the 144 000 is a Salvation context. Talks about redemption Rev 14 3

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Now the 144 000 in Rev 7 and the 144000 n Rev 14 are the same. So again you believe in a race based Salvation, which is not of God, that concept denies the fabric of Salvation/Redemption totally of Grace.