Thank you for your patience, and for pointing to that! And now I feel dense I didn't get what you were saying, but again, thank you! That's a great point!
Much love!
The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.
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6. The Apocrypha, The Septuagint LXX, and the Canon
Explanation of the relation between the Apocrypha, The Septuagint LXX and the canon of Old Testament scripture. Why the Catholics and Protestants have differnt books in the Old Testament
truthnet.org
How to Defend the Deuterocanonicals
Did the Catholic Church add seven books—1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith—to the Old Testament? Here's how to answer this common claim.
Why does the Septuagint contain non-Tanakh books?
The deuterocanonical books, treated as part of the Bible by the Orthodox and Catholic churches, are accepted because they appear in the Septuagint. However, they are excluded from the Jewish Bible,...
Catholic Apologists, the Deuterocanon, and the Septuagint
A blog dedicated to random thoughts on Mormon Scripture, theology, biblical exegesis, and other things relevant to Mormonism.
scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com
What is the manuscript evedence?
Athanasius377
Member
Yes, I have read all these arguments before and they are wanting. Rome knows the apocrypha is inferior that's why the call them deutero-canonical. Anyone who has read the books know they are inferior if for nothing else because they contain historical errors that are so egregious that it would be insulting to God the Holy Spirit that to claim that He inspired them. The fact is that none of the books were ever laid up in the Temple and none of the books made the hands "unclean". Furthermore, the more that an early church father knew about the Hebrew language and of Judaism in particular, the less likely they would regard the apocrypha as inspired. Lastly we have Josephus writing in the first century describing the Jewish canon which isn't so open as we are being told by Romish apologists.6. The Apocrypha, The Septuagint LXX, and the Canon
Explanation of the relation between the Apocrypha, The Septuagint LXX and the canon of Old Testament scripture. Why the Catholics and Protestants have differnt books in the Old Testamenttruthnet.orgHow to Defend the Deuterocanonicals
Did the Catholic Church add seven books—1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith—to the Old Testament? Here's how to answer this common claim.www.catholic.com
Why does the Septuagint contain non-Tanakh books?
The deuterocanonical books, treated as part of the Bible by the Orthodox and Catholic churches, are accepted because they appear in the Septuagint. However, they are excluded from the Jewish Bible,...hermeneutics.stackexchange.com
Catholic Apologists, the Deuterocanon, and the Septuagint
A blog dedicated to random thoughts on Mormon Scripture, theology, biblical exegesis, and other things relevant to Mormonism.
What is the manuscript evedence?
For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another [as the Greeks have], but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; (39) and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; (40) but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes, king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life.
Josephus, Flavius, and William Whiston. The Works of Josephus: Complete and Unabridged. Hendrickson, 1987, p. 776.
The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.
There is no case for any natural born terrestrial manKIND of being to be naturally conceived, naturally born, WITHOUT SIN IN and OF their natural body.
The SEED of EVERY terrestrial manKIND of being “IS” CORRUPTED and Reproduces, Multiplies CORRUPTED OFFSPRING.
Mary had a daddy, a mommy, that knew one another, slept together, copulated, and her daddy’s natural seed fertilized her mommy’s natural egg, and they reproduced, multiplied, and her mommy delivered forth Mary, herself a natural born corrupted offspring.
Same with Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David…ALL were naturally conceived, naturally born IN and OF SIN…and LIKE Mary each were Chosen BY the Lord God Himself, to SERVE God IN A PARTICULAR Expressly Identified MANNER, to WHICH…EACH individual…AGREED.
Every Terrestrial manKIND of being, Identified in Scripture (as examples), or not Identified in Scripture, have their OWN personal Experiences with the Lord God, to Learn, Hear, Listen For His Request of SERVICE UNTO HIM, and the individuals own FREEWILL to ACCEPT or REJECT the order, way, manner in and of the Lord Gods REQUEST for Service UNTO HIM.
Abram, Issac, Jacob, David, Joseph (husband of Mary), Mary, Paul, John, Peter, Luke….ON and ON identified IN Scripture…
ARE ALL “AS THEMSELVES ADULTS”… being REQUESTED by God to SERVE God in a particular order, way and manner.
AS “ADULTS”, they EACH of their OWN freewill, decide, choose, COMMIT, to ACCEPTING the Lord Gods REQUEST to AGREE to SERVE God “according TO Gods, Order and Way.”
And by ALL Scriptural ACCOUNTS…
“AS ADULTS”, Each DID SO, (same as others identified IN Scripture)…Fulfill their EXPRESS Agreement …. WITH the Lord God.
It is HUMAN men, particularly Gentile men, particularly Gentile men who established an Organization they Called “Catholic”, with the INtENT, DETERMINATION, ORGANIZED AGREED PLOT….
TO SPREAD “THEIR WORD”, throughout the world AND Universe.
* the world is “the Earth with all its inhabitants and all things upon it”
* the universe is “all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, and all other forms of matter and energy”.
Rom 1:
[8] First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
IF and when a man is taught and does call ON “souls, spirits, claims of bodily humans “IN” Heaven…”
Where specifically is such teaching taught?
Who specifically perpetuated such teaching?
TO Whom IN Heaven specifically is such teaching taught to CALL on by Name a specific individual?
What is the specific PURPOSE for an individual IN THIS WORLD, to MAKE a specific Calling to ANOTHER IN AN other World?
ANYONE?
ANYONE practice such things, that they can answer…where?, who?, whom?, what?
There is no case for any natural born terrestrial manKIND of being to be naturally conceived, naturally born, WITHOUT SIN IN and OF their natural body.
The SEED of EVERY terrestrial manKIND of being “IS” CORRUPTED and Reproduces, Multiplies CORRUPTED OFFSPRING.
Mary had a daddy, a mommy, that knew one another, slept together, copulated, and her daddy’s natural seed fertilized her mommy’s natural egg, and they reproduced, multiplied, and her mommy delivered forth Mary, herself a natural born corrupted offspring.
Same with Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David…ALL were naturally conceived, naturally born IN and OF SIN…and LIKE Mary each were Chosen BY the Lord God Himself, to SERVE God IN A PARTICULAR Expressly Identified MANNER, to WHICH…EACH individual…AGREED.
Every Terrestrial manKIND of being, Identified in Scripture (as examples), or not Identified in Scripture, have their OWN personal Experiences with the Lord God, to Learn, Hear, Listen For His Request of SERVICE UNTO HIM, and the individuals own FREEWILL to ACCEPT or REJECT the order, way, manner in and of the Lord Gods REQUEST for Service UNTO HIM.
Abram, Issac, Jacob, David, Joseph (husband of Mary), Mary, Paul, John, Peter, Luke….ON and ON identified IN Scripture…
ARE ALL “AS THEMSELVES ADULTS”… being REQUESTED by God to SERVE God in a particular order, way and manner.
AS “ADULTS”, they EACH of their OWN freewill, decide, choose, COMMIT, to ACCEPTING the Lord Gods REQUEST to AGREE to SERVE God “according TO Gods, Order and Way.”
And by ALL Scriptural ACCOUNTS…
“AS ADULTS”, Each DID SO, (same as others identified IN Scripture)…Fulfill their EXPRESS Agreement …. WITH the Lord God.
It is HUMAN men, particularly Gentile men, particularly Gentile men who established an Organization they Called “Catholic”, with the INtENT, DETERMINATION, ORGANIZED AGREED PLOT….
TO SPREAD “THEIR WORD”, throughout the world AND Universe.
* the world is “the Earth with all its inhabitants and all things upon it”
* the universe is “all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, and all other forms of matter and energy”.
Rom 1:
[8] First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
IF and when a man is taught and does call ON “souls, spirits, claims of bodily humans “IN” Heaven…”
Where specifically is such teaching taught?
Who specifically perpetuated such teaching?
TO Whom IN Heaven specifically is such teaching taught to CALL on by Name a specific individual?
What is the specific PURPOSE for an individual IN THIS WORLD, to MAKE a specific Calling to ANOTHER IN AN other World?
ANYONE?
ANYONE practice such things, that they can answer…where?, who?, whom?, what?
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Yeah but you're leaving out one important concept. Mary is the mother of God. So of course she has to be holy. And that's why she's often referred to as the holy Mary mother of God.
Of course I mentioned no such thing.
Scripture does not teach God descended from His own Creations.
Mary was an earthly body of dust, same as every other earthly body, naturally conceived and naturally born in SIN.
Heb 7:
[1] For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
[2] To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
[3] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor ending of life…….
DOES APPLY to the Lord God Almighty.
DOES NOT APPLY to Mary.
Mary’s FIRST born child, foretold to be a son,
And Mary FIRST born child, that which she delivered forth, according to prophecy, was CALLED, the Son of man, and by the NAME, JESUS.
Fact IS: Mary’s FIRSTBORN, FIRST was Delivered Forth OUT FROM GOD in Heaven, and SENT to Mary’s VIRGIN WOMB.
When something ALIVE comes forth (is DELIVERED) out from something ALIVE…
The DELIVERED “thing” is called BORN.
When Gods Word, came forth OUT of God MOUTH, and given a PREPARED BODY, by God Himself, and a NAME established, by God Himself…THAT DELIVERED “holy thing”….was by, through, of God… BORN OF GOD… and DELIVERED FORTH FROM God…and SENT to Mary’s Virgin Womb…
To EXPRESSLY EFFECT the will, desire and pleasure of God Himself.
God Bless you,
Taken
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
I have a question.
Why would any woman who had given birth to Christ Jesus no longer be holy if she followed through with her commitment to her marriage?
Why does that detract from her holy requirements to have Jesus?
Once he is born, why would she need to be remain holy... which people seem to think means without physical relations with her husband... unless it was because she would have heavenly duties that normal people will never attain..... after all... Mathew never told us that.... and we all agree the New Testament books are complete.
Matthew 1
18 Now the birth of Jesus [r]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been [s]betrothed to Joseph, before they came together
(They were betrothed but had not been together yet when she was found pregnant.)
she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned [t]to send her away secretly.
20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for [u]the Child who has been [v]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
(So an angel appeared to Joseph telling him "do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; " Interesting...
that it did not say he would be living with her as brother and sister... that it was his name that ws needed to keep the baby legitimate)
21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for [w]He will save His people from their sins.”
22 Now all this [x]took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”
(Yes, she was a virgin untouched by any man until Jesus was born..... we know that.)
24 And Joseph [z]awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
25 [aa]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
So I repeat... If they had done what they were told until after Jesus was born, why if she had consumated the marriage with Joseph after her days of purification...
BTW... If she was holy ... and such... why did she need purified after the birth?
.... why was it necessary for her to remain untouched the rest of her life?
WE ARE TOLD... all the way back in
Genesis 2....For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Matt 19:5 ...and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH ‘?
Mark 10: 6-8 ... “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
“FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."
Eph 5:31 ... FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
4 times I readily find a man and wife become one flesh... Yet Joseph is told to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife...
So... how is it that chastity is the "requisite" for being holy when over the years... a long while back admittedly...
there were married Popes.... INCLUDING ST. PETER.
catholicsay.com
Before entering the priesthood, Sicco had been married and had three sons who also entered Holy Orders:
When his mother died, his father, the knight Foulquois, entered a Carthusian monastery where he ended a saintly life. Guido married, and for a short time wielded the spear and the sword. Then devoting himself to the study of law under the able direction of the famous Durandus, he gained a national reputation as an advocate. St. Louis, who entertained a great respect and affection for him, took him into his cabinet and made him one of his trusted councillors. His wife died, leaving him two daughters, whereupon he imitated his father to the extent that he gave up worldly concerns and took Holy orders.
.. His first act was to forbid any of his relatives to come to the Curia, or to attempt to derive any sort of temporal advantage from his elevation. Suitors for the hands of his daughters were admonished that their prospective brides were “children not of the pope, but of Guido Grossus”, and that their dowers should be extremely modest. The two ladies later preferred the seclusion of the convent.
CONCLUSION... LOOKS LIKE THE HOLY SEES WERE NOT NECESSARILY SO HOLY AFTER ALL.
Why would any woman who had given birth to Christ Jesus no longer be holy if she followed through with her commitment to her marriage?
Why does that detract from her holy requirements to have Jesus?
Once he is born, why would she need to be remain holy... which people seem to think means without physical relations with her husband... unless it was because she would have heavenly duties that normal people will never attain..... after all... Mathew never told us that.... and we all agree the New Testament books are complete.
Matthew 1
18 Now the birth of Jesus [r]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been [s]betrothed to Joseph, before they came together
(They were betrothed but had not been together yet when she was found pregnant.)
she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned [t]to send her away secretly.
20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for [u]the Child who has been [v]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
(So an angel appeared to Joseph telling him "do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; " Interesting...
that it did not say he would be living with her as brother and sister... that it was his name that ws needed to keep the baby legitimate)
21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for [w]He will save His people from their sins.”
22 Now all this [x]took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”
(Yes, she was a virgin untouched by any man until Jesus was born..... we know that.)
24 And Joseph [z]awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
25 [aa]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
So I repeat... If they had done what they were told until after Jesus was born, why if she had consumated the marriage with Joseph after her days of purification...
BTW... If she was holy ... and such... why did she need purified after the birth?
.... why was it necessary for her to remain untouched the rest of her life?
WE ARE TOLD... all the way back in
Genesis 2....For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Matt 19:5 ...and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH ‘?
Mark 10: 6-8 ... “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
“FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."
Eph 5:31 ... FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
4 times I readily find a man and wife become one flesh... Yet Joseph is told to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife...
So... how is it that chastity is the "requisite" for being holy when over the years... a long while back admittedly...
there were married Popes.... INCLUDING ST. PETER.
Popes Who Were Married | Articles
There existed Bishops, priest and even Popes who were married before receiving the mantle of Church leadership.
catholicsay.com
1. St Peter
Saint Peter (Simon Peter), whose mother-in-law is mentioned in the Gospel verses Matthew 8:14–15, Luke 4:38, Mark 1:29–31 and who was healed by Jesus at her home in Capernaum. This clearly depicts Peter as a married man, and 1 Cor. 9:5 suggests Peter’s wife accompanied him on his mission. Clement of Alexandria notes that “Peter and Philip begat children” and writes: “When the blessed Peter saw his own wife led out to die, he rejoiced because of her summons and her return home, and called to her very encouragingly and comfortingly, addressing her by name, and saying, ‘Remember the Lord.’ Such was the marriage of the blessed, and their perfect disposition toward those dearest to them.” Later legends, dating from the 6th century onwards, suggested that Peter had a daughter – identified as Saint Petronilla. This, however, is likely to be a result of the similarity of their names.2. Pope St. Hormisdas
He was born at Frosinone, Campagna di Roma, Italy. Before becoming a Roman deacon, Hormisdas was married, and his son would in turn become Pope under the name of Silverius. During the Laurentian schism, Hormisdas was one of the most prominent clerical partisans of Pope Symmachus. He was notary at the synod held at St. Peter’s in 502. Two letters of Magnus Felix Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, survive addressed to him, written when the latter tried to regain horses and money he had lent the Pope.
3. Pope Adrian II
After the death of St. Nicholas I, the Roman clergy and people elected, much against his will, the venerable Cardinal Adrian, universally beloved for his charity and amiability, descended from a Roman family which had already given two pontiffs to the Church, Stephen III and Sergius II. Adrian was now seventy-five years old, and twice before had refused the dignity. He had been married before taking orders, and his old age was saddened by a domestic tragedy. As pope, he followed closely in the footsteps of his energetic predecessor. He strove to maintain peace among the greedy and incompetent descendants of Charlemagne.4. Pope John XVII
Pope John XVII was Pope for about seven months from 16 May to 6 November 1003.Before entering the priesthood, Sicco had been married and had three sons who also entered Holy Orders:
- John, Bishop of Praeneste
- Peter, a Deacon
- Andrew, a Secundicerius
5. Pope Clement VI
Born at Saint-Gilles on the Rhone, 23 November, year unknown; elected at Perugia 5 February, 1265; d. at Viterbo, 29 November, 1268. After the death of Urban IV (2 October, 1264), the cardinals, assembled in conclave at Perugia, discussed for four months the momentous question whether the Church should continue the war to the end against the House of Hohenstaufen by calling in Charles of Anjou, the youngest brother of St. Louis of France, or find some other means of securing the independence of the papacy. No other solution offering itself, the only possible course was to unite upon the Cardinal-Bishop of Sabina, by birth a Frenchman and a subject of Charles. Guido Le Gros was of noble extraction.When his mother died, his father, the knight Foulquois, entered a Carthusian monastery where he ended a saintly life. Guido married, and for a short time wielded the spear and the sword. Then devoting himself to the study of law under the able direction of the famous Durandus, he gained a national reputation as an advocate. St. Louis, who entertained a great respect and affection for him, took him into his cabinet and made him one of his trusted councillors. His wife died, leaving him two daughters, whereupon he imitated his father to the extent that he gave up worldly concerns and took Holy orders.
.. His first act was to forbid any of his relatives to come to the Curia, or to attempt to derive any sort of temporal advantage from his elevation. Suitors for the hands of his daughters were admonished that their prospective brides were “children not of the pope, but of Guido Grossus”, and that their dowers should be extremely modest. The two ladies later preferred the seclusion of the convent.
CONCLUSION... LOOKS LIKE THE HOLY SEES WERE NOT NECESSARILY SO HOLY AFTER ALL.
May I comment on your question?
1.) Mary did not give birth to Christ Jesus. She gave birth to Jesus.
2.) Mary must be holy because the Catholics are the first to teach that Mary gave birth to Christ Jesus.
A distinction must be made between the various usages and combinations of his name: Jesus, Christ, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, and Lord Jesus Christ. Failing to make these distinctions and assuming that they are all used interchangeably clouds certain essential insights that are critical for christological accuracy. Basically, the usage of these terms is indicative of two distinctions. One is about his person, his humility when he was here upon the earth. The other is about his exaltation. Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says the word “Christ” appears “when there is reference to the work or redemption.” This term emphasizes not so much the person of Christ as the job he was sent to do. This becomes very important when we understand Christ Jesus as he functions today with the power of God that has been placed within him.
The word "Christ" means "anointed" which leads to the obvious question, with what? Acts 10:38, says "with the holy spirit and with power." The holy spirit was upon men by measure in the Old Testament (2 Kings 2:9), Jesus received it without measure (John 3:34). So his messianic works were accomplished by the power of the holy spirit upon him, and it is those works in which he is presently engaged that is the referent of the word "Christ" in biblical usage. "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27), refers not to a person but to the same enablement of the holy spirit without measure that Jesus received to become the "Christ."
"Jesus" refers to his earthly life and mission prior to being risen from the dead. "Jesus Christ" refers to the person who is the Son of God seated at the right hand of God. It is he with whom we have fellowship (1 John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 1:9). Though he is the exalted Christ seated at the right hand of God, he is personally acquainted with every member of his body, his brothers and sisters (Hebrews 2:11). "Christ Jesus" emphasizes his exalted position at the right hand of God, and the legal rights and privileges that have resulted from his accomplishments. This compound form of his name is most often used with "in" and "by" emphasizing not his person but his works.
God has highly exalted the Christ, and gave him a name, which is above every name. Thus, "Christ" became the name of his changed position; after he was raised from the dead, and exalted in glory. "Christ" in the Epistles denotes our position, blessing, and standing before God. In Christ, never in Jesus, marks him as the now glorified one who was once humbled. The combination with "Lord" marks his authority and power. "God hath made this same Jesus both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
First... "God has highly exalted the Christ, and gave him a name, which is above every name. Thus, "Christ" became the name of his changed position; after he was raised from the dead, and exalted in glory. "Christ" in the Epistles denotes our position, blessing, and standing before God. In Christ, never in Jesus, marks him as the now glorified one who was once humbled."
And it is exactly because of this. The fact that it is a done deed, that it is appropriate for us to refer to Him as Christ Jesus.
But you best take another look at and see what those people were told.
Luke 1
30 The angel told her,
“Don’t be afraid, Mary. You have found favor [a] with God.
31 You will become pregnant, give birth to a son,
and name him Jesus.
32 He will be a great man
and will be called the Son of the Most High.
The Lord God will give him
the throne of his ancestor David.
33 Your son will be king of Jacob’s people forever,
and his kingdom will never end.”
34 Mary asked the angel, “How can this be? I’m a virgin.”
35 The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come to you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy child developing inside you will be called the Son of God
Matthew 1
Conception and Birth of Jesus
18 Now the birth of Jesus [r]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been [s]betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned [t]to send her away secretly.
20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for [u]the Child who has been [v]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for [w]He will save His people from their sins.” 22 Now all this [x]took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”
24 And Joseph [z]awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
25 [aa]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
If you cannot understand that now it has been fulfilled and is appropriate and proper to always refer to our Savior as Christ Jesus, especially knowing that they knew what He would be accomplishing in His life from the age of accountability... say 12... until and through his ministry and Resurrection... ............
I asked "Why would any woman who had given birth to Christ Jesus no longer be holy if she followed through with her commitment to her marriage?"
You replied "
1.) Mary did not give birth to Christ Jesus. She gave birth to Jesus."
To me it is totally disrespectful to just refer to the child Mary had as Jesus when Both she and Joseph were told He would be special especially for His people.
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Jesus was not born the Lord Christ. He became that after the resurrection.
To call Him "Christ" (anointed one) only after His resurrection is fine if you wish. But that wasn't Peter's view in Acts 10:36-40:
"You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen."
There is a sequence here: (1) God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power; (2) He went around doing good and healing; (3) He was hung on a cross; (4) He was raised from the dead.
In Luke 4:16-21 we read:
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Then there is Matt. 16:15-17:
"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
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Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
And Donald Trump was not born president but if you were talking aboput his birth and childhood would you refer to him as Donny , Former President Trump or President Trump?
Once it is achieved references should always refer to the achieved station.
Mary was not ‘holy’. She was an earthly body, conceived and naturally born in SIN.
Her virgin womb, is what the Lord God used for His purpose, with her agreement. Her soul became SAVED via the Baptism of the Holy Spirit…AFTER Jesus returned to Heaven….making that some 30 years AFTER Jesus was delivered forth from her virgin womb.
Nothing whatsoever indicates Mary did not fulfill her LAWFUL duties as a wife to her husband….AFTER the birth of Jesus and the Mosaic (LAWFUL) waiting period after delivering forth a son, she fulfilled her obligation she agree to, of her Service unto God of remaining a Virgin during her 9 months pregnancy and …
7 days after the birth…as she is unclean
1 day…the 8th day the boy child circumcised.
33 more days…to pass her unclean issue of blood.
THEN…she is LAWFULLY able to have a sexual relationship with her husband.
(Lev 1: 1-4)
Glory to God,
Taken
We are not comparing apples with apples. Trump did not change and become something else when God raised him from the dead and made him both Lord and Christ. Something his mother Mary did not give birth to.
A couple of things hit my mind here...
1.) Acts 10:36 was written after God raised Jesus out from among the dead and made him to be both Lord and Christ.
2.) God anointing Jesus with the spirit and power (which means he was not born with it) is not what happened when God made him to be both Lord and Christ after he was raised from the dead..
My point was that referring to the pre-resurrection Jesus as "Christ" has scriptural support.
We agree on that. I write it this way...
Christ: Anointed, messiah, a term applied to everyone anointed with the holy oil, chiefly to the High Priest. The expected savior, as the redeemer. In the church epistles it often denotes Christ spiritual. Christ as the head of the one body. E.W. Bullinger
Prophets, Priests, and Kings were anointed before they assumed office that signified royal competence. Anointing was a means of investing someone with power, such as the anointment of King Solomon to signify divine sanctification and approval. Aaron was the first to be anointed for the priesthood, and the High Priest was often called the anointed Priest. The prophet Elijah was anointed and received the command to anoint Elisha. The character of the anointment gave the King the privilege of becoming the Lord’s anointed, that signified he was to serve God and reign in God’s stead over the people. The right to anoint the King was executed by the Prophet, and then later in time, only the High Priest had the right to anoint the King.
The title “the Lord’s anointed” was later shortened to “anointed.” The Hebrew, in the Aramaic form uses the word “messiah.” The Greeks translated “messiah” into the Greek as “Christ.” Jesus was anointed as Prophet, Priest, and King to signify the fulfillment of the promised messiah. Jesus was also anointed by God with the holy spirit and with power (Acts 10:38). As believers we are anointed by God because of the seed of Christ that is born within us. “Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God” (2 Corinthians 1:21).
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
You can't have intended "him" to mean "Trump" here. (Although his mother was named Mary.)
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I do not dare to compare the Lord Christ to Trump.
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