So, if we incinerate our personal enemies he would be fine with that?
Even human authorities wouldn't tolerate that.
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The Character of God - Reader Poll
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Even human authorities wouldn't tolerate that.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
For most of human history, that's how human authorities themselves have behaved. Making an enemy of Kings and Pharaohs and Caesars and Führers could definitely shorten your lifespan. Or worse...
And so, God made Man in His own image...
That's also faintly blasphemous.
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I think he is more like us than we realize. IMHO (in a good way)
Thanks for posting the Bruce Hornsby song. I used to own that album.
He has such a powerful voice, but limits the way he uses it. (much appreciated)
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--- PARODY ---
God: Welcome to the afterlife.
Person: Who are you?
God: I created you for my own purposes.
Person: Like what.
God: For destruction.
Person: What does that mean?
God: You will be annihilated.
Person: Why?
God: It was my choice for you.
Person: What did I do to deserve this.
God: You were born a sinner.
Person: Not by my choice.
God: Right. By my choice.
Person: Was that fair?
God: It doesn't matter. You can't stop me.
Person: Who did you say you were again?
You sound more like the Devil than God.
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God: Welcome to the afterlife.
Person: Who are you?
God: I created you for my own purposes.
Person: Like what.
God: For destruction.
Person: What does that mean?
God: You will be annihilated.
Person: Why?
God: It was my choice for you.
Person: What did I do to deserve this.
God: You were born a sinner.
Person: Not by my choice.
God: Right. By my choice.
Person: Was that fair?
God: It doesn't matter. You can't stop me.
Person: Who did you say you were again?
You sound more like the Devil than God.
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Probably not, no. <smile>
Do you think me to be suggesting that? I'm really at a loss to guess what would prompt you to ask such a thing.
Do you mean that all-inclusively? Because some probably would...
I was kind of with you up to 'annihilation'... <smile>
Stop again. <smile> Yes, as Paul says, the potter (God, the Creator) has every right... to "make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use..." and, "desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles" (Romans 9).
And, regarding us believers, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him; in love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1).
However, yes, we were all born sinners, certainly not by God's choice, but because of Adam's choice. Adam, the first man, is the federal head of the human race, and we all inherit the same sin nature that Adam acquired when he disobeyed God in Genesis 3. So legally speaking, it was our choice to be sinners; Adam was representative of all humanity in Eden: "...sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned... one trespass led to condemnation for all men..." (Romans 5).
God's choice is mercy and grace and redemption through the second Adam, Christ Jesus;
"...much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ... one act of righteousness leads to justification... as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous and life..." (Romans 5)
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God..." (Ephesians 2)
God grants that gift only to His elect, which ~ back to Romans 9 ~ is His prerogative. He would have been perfectly just to give this mercy, grace, and redemption to no one.
Ah, there it is. Yes, Paul anticipates that and asks, "Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?'” And then the potter and the clay and all the rest, cited above...
And I would ask, too, who gets to define "fair?" <chuckle> Is your idea of "fairness" that God only be allowed ~ forced, as it were ~ to give this gift to all? Wouldn't that gift then be no longer a gift, but a mere obligation? Is the Creator somehow obligated to the created?
To many, many folks, that's absolutely true; they do end up calling evil "good," and good "evil." Are you doing that?
Grace and peace to you, Steven.
What?
Not by God's choice?
God is omniscient, he didn't see this coming?
Adam was in charge of the destiny of humankind?
Where is God's sovereignty in that?
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
I've supported a ministry for years whose motto is, "God is NOT mad at you."
(And I have it on good authority that God is quite fond of you, Nancy.)
From 2 Peter 2
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8(for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.
So we know the patience of the Lord is our salvation and like Lot He would have been grieved day after day before He let His righteous anger express.
This is the issue - the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God and the anger of God is always just - these are two different angers so lets stop painting God with the same bush as angry humans.
Not originally, no. But, as a result of Adam's actions in Eden, God pronounced a judgment and a sentence on Adam and all his progeny ~ all mankind. But God promised to undo it ~ Genesis 3:15 is the first promise that He would redeem the world.
Yes, this was His plan from the foundation of the world.
No. See above.
I like this comment, Steven. I might... rearrange (so to speak) it thusly: I think we are more like Him (in certain ways; others not so much) than we realize. I think we are thinking along the same lines here, but I think the order is important... and I think you will probably agree with that.
Grace and peace to you, Steven.
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Nancy
Well-Known Member
I love you brother...BTW-Rob?I've supported a ministry for years whose motto is, "God is NOT mad at you."
(And I have it on good authority that God is quite fond of you, Nancy.)
Nancy
Well-Known Member
"...My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways... For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9).LOL! His Word is very clear about His attributes. And, as you must know:
"...what can be known about God is plain to (all), because God has shown it to (all). For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made" (Romans 1:19-20).
No "double standard..." With all due respect, what you say here is very shortsighted. The way in which things manifest themselves in God is sinless, whereas the way in which they manifest themselves in people is sinful. Just to take anger as an example, there is such thing as a holy and righteous ~ and thus sinless ~ anger, but there is also an unholy, unrighteous ~ and thus sinful ~ anger. The two manifestations are very, very different.
Certainly, but you seem to imply a very limited view of love.
Would you propose we counsel God according to our own standards of love and justice?
Possibly.
Actually, I would redirect that question thusly: Does God hold us to a lower standard than He holds Himself to? No, right?
So if we fall short ~ and we do (to put it mildly) ~ then will He compromise His standard... and even Himself... for us?
Or does He provide a way ~ actually a Way ~ for us to meet that standard... a Savior Who meets that standard on our behalf, redeeming and thereby reconciling us to God?
A great passage, to be sure. It seems to me that how you might define love and perfection is at least somewhat different ~ lower (again, to put it mildly), really ~ than God's. Which makes sense, actually; as Isaiah (quoting God) said...
"...My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways... For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9).
... as David said...
"O LORD, You have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, You know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay Your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it" (Psalm 139:1-6).
...and Paul:
"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to Him that He might be repaid?' For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be glory forever. Amen" (Romans 11:33-36).
Grace and peace to you.
This is an awesome verse. And I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons that vengeance belongs to God alone. Our anger can be very sinful and blinded by such anger, we can lash out without all the information and hurt someone so bad, possibly even irreparably. That is un-righteousness.
He is just even when wiping out a whole city. His standard is perfection and without Christ, we would all fail.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Lol, yes, maybe. But, I don't see those things as His anger or wrath...yet! I see those things as a result of a fallen world...?
BTW- We have not been judged yet, but we sure have to live through the "reap and sow" while still on the earth.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Not at all - as long as it is righteous...
This raises an important issue - Jesus would have passed the tables in the temple foyer many times but didnt get angry and turn the tables - why ??? Because He didnt see the Father doing it. There is a right time and a right way to act against sin and wickedness.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Hah! Paul's strawman came to life and started winning the argument. "Why then does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" I think that's a damned reasonable question to ask, and Paul can't answer it. Paul had to put down a Golem of his own making.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
In which case, as in disciplining misbehaving children, it may be necessary for a Father to exhibit anger.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Getting back to my Catholic neighbor's perception of the "God of the Old Testament" being angry all the time - I suspect that is because the OT writers spent a considerable amount of time and parchment relating the circumstances that led up to the Babylonian exile. What we're allowed to see is a Father disciplining His kids, which is not something I like to watch in real life.
My brother and sister and I privately referred to our father as "Ol' Grouch". Towards the end of his life, he told me he knew that and how deeply it hurt him. Ouch.
Yes, possibly.
Disappointment works better. IMHO
To me, anger communicates that the child is inherently bad and needs the devil beat out of them.
Whereas disappointment communicates that the child is inherently good and has failed in their poor behavior.
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