covenantee
Well-Known Member
Because the only prince in the passage is Messiah.So how can their prince be the Messiah when Caesar was their god and king?
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Because the only prince in the passage is Messiah.So how can their prince be the Messiah when Caesar was their god and king?
Already you reveal your having succumbed to men's doctrines trying to rely on interpretation by 'word fallacies'.Only until the verses talking about the tearing of the veil. Not after that. It's not a fallacy. Ignoring the facts about it in order to hold onto the notion that it's a physical temple in Jerusalem being spoken of in 2 Thess 2:4 is a fallacy. In this case you are the one holding onto a fallacy.
Dan, 12:4 tells us, imo, that both secular and prophetic knowledge will increase in the latter days. The generation that actually sees these things start to be fulfilled will again, imo, have a greater understanding of prophecy than all the previous generations combined. I prefer to believe the scriptures themselves and not historic man's interpretation of them.I'll take historical Christian orthodoxy over modernist cultic dispensationalism.
Every time.
Dan. 9: 26 and 27 are not speaking of the same event and the destruction of the temple was and is not the AoD and neither was the offering of pagan sacrifices by AE. The Aod is one thing alone and the image of Zeus that AE erected in the temple was a "type" for the real AoD which is depicted in Rev. 13:14-15. The AoD is something that will be placed, set up and found standing in the holy place. Christ said it was still in the future and I believe him. Btw, I agree that the verses you listed that I used have nothing to w/ the destruction of the temple because neither does the AoD.Daniel 8:11; 11:31 and 12:11 has nothing to do with any destruction of the temple. The city and temple are not destroyed in those verses, and the temple is only defiled by an idol in it.
Those prophecies were fulfilled in the 2nd century BC, but that history did not completely fulfill everything. That's why they also point to 2 Thess 2:4 (and Matthew 24:15 - which also has nothing to do with the destruction of God's temple, but with its defilement, and corresponds with 2 Thess 2:4).
The error many make is to conflate the defilement of the temple (Dan 8:11; 11:31 and 12:11) with its destruction prophesied in Daniel 9:26-27, which prophesies the destruction of both the city and the temple.
QUOTE
"Abomination of Desolation" is a phrase from the Book of Daniel describing the pagan sacrifices with which the 2nd century BC Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes replaced the twice-daily offering in the Jewish temple, or alternatively the altar on which such offerings were made."
(Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia)
UNQUOTE
That temple was not destroyed. And the verses which talk about the defilement by Antiochus IV are Daniel 8:11, 11:31 and 12:11 - but because the prophecy is about the end time, Antiochus IV is only the type of the Antichrist. He did not completely fulfill the prophecy.
You really do need to separate the above defilement of God's temple from the destruction of the 2nd temple prophesied in Daniel 9:26-27.
They are three of the kings mentioned in Rev. 17 but it's not those nations themselves, it's the nations they each, in their time, ruled over that neighbor Israel that are "the people of the prince to come", speaking of the future a/c because it is folks from those nations, as Rome's conscripted soldiers, that actually cased the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70ad. Only the leaders were actually Romans. There is a reason the bible separates them from the future prince because in the context of the book of Daniel as a whole, the "prince to come" was "not" speaking of Titus nor Messiah.The beast of Revelation is not even the Eastern part of the Roman Empire. It's the former kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and the Macedonian/Greek empires. Islamic. The Eastern part of the Roman Empire at its height soon after the time of Christ did not stretch much further East than current-day Lebanon, Israel and Gaza. The lion, the leopard and the bear of Revelation 13 is neither the Western nor the furthest extent of the Eastern part of the Roman Empire
The ONLY "little horn", who has ever been, and shall never be again, nor one like him, was Antiochus Epiphanies lV.And such an unscriptural belief is EXACTLY what the antichrist needs to be successful and create the Apostasy....that is how "church-ianity" of all flavors will fall away. This is as bad, maybe worse than Pretrib's version where they escape away so they don't face the AC or Preterism's version where the AC is also real, but came long ago in the past.
Falsehoods:
1. The AC isn't a real end times figure.
2. We won't be here to have to deal with the AC.
3. The AC came in the past so cannot be a future figure.
All are antichrist denial.
Steer FAR away from all of those doctrines.
The ONLY "little horn", who has ever been, and shall never be again, nor one like him, was Antiochus Epiphanies lV.
There IS NO future "AoD" to come, nor shall there be a future one man band, magic man, that "church-ianity" loves to call "THE" Antichrist. It's all a fabrication through "the wisdom of men".
EDIT: you and countless others are blatantly misunderstanding what "Beasts" and "horns" are symbolized to be in Daniel**.
But then in Rev., most all want to now personalize, the 10H Beast, the Image of that Beast , and the 2H Beast.
WHY??
You all don't know why, nor have you thoroughly researched it to understand that the 10H Beast in Rev. has been EVOLVING down through the years to today, being wounded, yet did live.
It's still with us, being known as the countries of Europe, whereby 10 of them in the near future, will be appointed and operative through the Beast (having 10H), of which shall be a Global Economic Empire, by which the "MoB" (digital money) shall come.
The Image is the UN, and the 2H Beast is the USA.
**Note: "horns" are symbolic of governments having a military.
The ONLY "little horn", who has ever been, and shall never be again, nor one like him, was Antiochus Epiphanies lV.
There IS NO future "AoD" to come, nor shall there be a future one man band, magic man, that "church-ianity" loves to call "THE" Antichrist. It's all a fabrication through "the wisdom of men".
EDIT: you and countless others are blatantly misunderstanding what "Beasts" and "horns" are symbolized to be in Daniel**.
But then in Rev., most all want to now personalize, the 10H Beast, the Image of that Beast , and the 2H Beast.
WHY??
You all don't know why, nor have you thoroughly researched it to understand that the 10H Beast in Rev. has been EVOLVING down through the years to today, being wounded, yet did live.
The wisdom and understanding of historical defenders of the true faith have been recorded and preserved for our benefit and edification. It is the epitome of arrogance and ignorance to suggest that our wisdom and understanding is superior to theirs. Such is the essence of cultism. Wisdom and understanding do not increase over time, but rather erode and disappear as the events of Scripture and history fade from memory and cognizance.Dan, 12:4 tells us, imo, that both secular and prophetic knowledge will increase in the latter days. The generation that actually sees these things start to be fulfilled will again, imo, have a greater understanding of prophecy than all the previous generations combined. I prefer to believe the scriptures themselves and not historic man's interpretation of them.
I'm not saying that modern "man's" wisdom will prevail. The various dispensations are God's designs, not made up by man. What will make our knowledge of the end times greater is the outpouring of the HS upon the church that will be equal to or greater than that the apostles received. I believe God's plan for the last generation of the church is just as important, if not more so, then the 1st generation's of the church. Actually, it's historicists that depends on the wisdom of men. Many futurists depend on the new understanding given by the HS of God in these latter days.The wisdom and understanding of historical defenders of the true faith have been recorded and preserved for our benefit and edification. It is the epitome of arrogance and ignorance to suggest that our wisdom and understanding is superior to theirs. Such is the essence of cultism. Wisdom and understanding do not increase over time, but rather erode and disappear as the events of Scripture and history fade from memory and cognizance.
To paraphrase George Santayana, those who ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat its errors.
What to believe?
Two centuries of modernist cultic dispensational delusion and denial
or
Seventeen centuries of declaration of Christ as the theme and fulfillment of prophecy by recognized defenders of the True Faith
Who needs a hint?
Okay, then when does Daniel 7:11-12 take place then?
It is my understanding that the judgement of the heavenly hosts, i.e., the beasts and the little horn of Daniel 7:1-10, will take place in our near future at the same time that the Kings of the earth are judged on the earth, (Isaiah 24:21-22) and they, the judged heavenly hosts, who are the four beats and the Little horn in Daniel 7:1-10 plus the judged kings of the earth will be gathered together and imprisoned in a pit, i.e., the Bottomless pit, for a period of 1,000 years after which they along with Satan will be released for a little while period.
Then in Dan 7:18-26 we are introduced to the four facetted beast that consist of the first four beasts of Danial 7:1-12 acting together in unison which is also referenced in chapter Rev 13, 17 and 19.
Now in Daniel 7:12 the beasts are allowed to live for a "season", i.e., 1,000 years, plus for a "time, which I believe will be for around 20-25 years before they are collectively, including Satan, dispatched into the Lake of Fire.
The "time" period mentioned in Daniel 7:12 is after the Bottomless pit is unlocked which will allow the imprisoned kings of the earth, the judged heavenly hosts, i.e., the beast and the False Prophet, i.e., the little horn of Daniel 7 & 8, and Satan to march all over the earth to upsurge God.
The Roman Empire army was given to the Little Horn so that the Little Horn could "magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. And in the rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did."
It seems that your understanding is lacking in what you post.
Most Christians are not aware that the prophetic book of Daniel was for OC Israel, during the "Age of Indignation", just as the book of Revelation is for the NC church, for the "Age of God's Grace" through Jesus.Shalom
There are no "various dispensations". There are two: the Old Testament and the New Testament.I'm not saying that modern "man's" wisdom will prevail. The various dispensations are God's designs, not made up by man. What will make our knowledge of the end times greater is the outpouring of the HS upon the church that will be equal to or greater than that the apostles received. I believe God's plan for the last generation of the church is just as important, if not more so, then the 1st generation's of the church. Actually, it's historicists that depends on the wisdom of men. Many futurists depend on the new understanding given by the HS of God in these latter days.
Most Christians are not aware that the prophetic book of Daniel was for OC Israel, during the "Age of Indignation", just as the book of Revelation is for the NC church, for the "Age of God's Grace" through Jesus.
. . . .
Okay, then when does Daniel 7:11-12 take place then?
It's called interpretation by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, and not by words verbatim, according to "the wisdom of men", crunching words like numbers, as if our forms of correct language is the key.No, he wasn't the little horn. He has not yet been revealed and he and his ten horned kingdom is defeated by a coming of God and that hasn't happened yet. It's also hypocritical that you speak so much against the idea of a singular AC when you believe the AC was a singular man.
The ten horned beast is not yet in power because Rev 13 gives it only 42 months, not longer as you believe. Your "church-ianity" doesn't adhere to what is actually written,. but makes up it's own things and claims it's scripture.
Maybe you didn't perceive what I said about Daniel and Revelation.So, you have no idea as to when Daniel 7:11-12 actually takes place.
and not by words verbatim
Maybe you didn't perceive what I said about Daniel and Revelation.
Here it is again:
"Most Christians are not aware that the prophetic book of Daniel was for OC Israel, during the "Age of Indignation", just as the book of Revelation is for the NC church, for the "Age of God's Grace" through Jesus.
It ended on the Day of Jesus' death and resurrection, the beginning the New Covenant, formerly displayed on Pentecost, which initiated the Age of God's Grace through faith in Jesus.And you still did not reply to my question but gave your understanding of what the respective times are applicable to. When does the time of indignation of the Israelites end?
Correct, ever since Pentecost.Remember that there is no distinction between the Israelites and the Christians, we are both God's Saints, and we will suffer at the end of the Seventh Age.
Israel on this side of the cross of Christ will all be of The Great Multitude.The redemption of the Israelites will occur soon just as Jesus foretold during His first advent.
Shalom
It ended on the Day of Jesus' death and resurrection, the beginning the New Covenant, formerly displayed on Pentecost, which initiated the Age of God's Grace through faith in Jesus.
Correct, ever since Pentecost.
Israel on this side of the cross of Christ will all be of The Great Multitude.
The symbolic words of Jesus often do point back to the prophetic OT scriptures.Not by the words God uses in scripture is what it is.