Wrangler
Well-Known Member
100%. Sin would not be possible if human agency was a strict extention of divine will.Are you suggesting that human agency exists apart from the divine will?
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100%. Sin would not be possible if human agency was a strict extention of divine will.Are you suggesting that human agency exists apart from the divine will?
Yet, even with the redeeming work of Jesus' death on the cross, many will still not find pardon - even those who claim to be believers.Without the redeeming work of Jesus' death on the cross and his ascension, one will never find another way to find pardon.
Yes, the condition does prove we can go other way. If we could not go another way, it would be unconditional.The conditional does not prove that we can go either way.
It's Jeremiah's potter analogy, isn't it? Paul merely piggy backed on it.Paul's Potter analogy
You are being willfully ignorant of the point; the reaction of the pot being created.Paul's Potter analogy is intended to defend his position against those who claim that Paul's arguments are invalid because they lead to absurd conclusions. Paul's argument must be invalid, for instance, because it leads to the conclusion that God is unjust.
You are doing a bang-up job here C+Z. Keep up the great work.I like to think that we are dealing with a complicated subject and that discussion among friends can be helpful to those who follow along. I opened this thread at someone else's request, and I did so because she asked and because I thought it might be helpful to others.
Moreover, the doctrine of election as it pertains to Perseverance is very encouraging. And, during these times, I want to be as encouraging as possible.
Paul's Potter analogy is intended to defend his position against those who claim that Paul's arguments are invalid because they lead to absurd conclusions. Paul's argument must be invalid, for instance, because it leads to the conclusion that God is unjust.
The analogy seeks to illustrate the fundamental and foundational reasons behind the act of creation. I explain the analogy in terms of a hypothetical woman who goes to the store to buy a pot. Her choices are limited to the available pots and she chooses a pot that was already created. But God is not like the woman who chooses a pot. He is like the potter who makes a pot. And one of the fundamental principles of creation is "form follows function". Paul's analogy makes this point explicit.
Granted, the potter analogy doesn't speak to the reaction of the pot, except to say that a pot would not say, "Why did you make me this way?"
Sadism implies that God is treating someone in a way they didn't deserve. But Paul's analogy specifies that God is treating someone based on the purpose for which they were designed.
You argue that God's "election" is not a matter of creation, but a matter of selection. In your view, preordination is nothing more than a decision to reward believers with salvation and to punish unbelievers. Each individual must decide for himself, whether to believe or not; and each individual must decide to maintain belief.
Accordingly, in your view, God predetermined to love anyone who believed his promise and to hate those who despised it. Since Jacob believed God's promise, God loved him, and since Esau despised his birthright, God hated Esau.
I get your view, but does it square with Paul's argument? Did Paul intend to illustrate the principle that God rewards the good and punishes the bad? No. Not really. Paul removes judgment from the equation.
God tells Rebekah, before her twins were born, that the younger would serve the older. Was this merely a prediction of the future?
No, not entirely. God's word to Rebekah was a promise, indicating his intent to purposely help Jacob and burden Esau.
He points out that God decided to work things out for the good of Jacob, and work things out for the detriment of Esau. Everything God did for Jacob, gave Jacob the advantage over his brother Esau. And everything God did against Esau put him at a disadvantage.
In Paul's mind, the account of Jacob and Esau illustrates the call of God. He writes, ". . . so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls . . ." In Romans 11, Paul will assert that the callings of God are irresistible.
Jacob didn't compel or induce God to work on his behalf. Jacob didn't petition or pray to God that he might help Jacob gain an advantage over Esau.
Rather, it was Jacob's "calling" to be the leader of Israel. It was Esau's "calling" to serve his brother. And since God "called" Jacob to be the leader of Israel, God orchestrated Jacob's personal history to Jacob's advantage and to Esau's disadvantage. Understand, God assigns our calling to us before we are born and he orchestrates our personal histories such that we will fulfill our calling.
On the contrary, that is my conclusion -- not my assumption.
By faith doesn't mean "because of faith."
I think so. But your interpretation of the phrase "by faith" makes salvation into wages.
I already argued how your analysis does not square with God's role as a creator. In your view, God is selecting people according to decisions that the people make. This is like the woman who goes to the store to pick out a vase. But God is not like the woman who goes to the store to pick out a vase. God is like the potter who makes vases.
I don't know any Calvinists who interpret "foreknowledge" as "fore-caused."
Most Calvinists that I know, and I agree with them, understand Biblical foreknowledge in terms of a covenant. If God has a covenant with a people in the past, then he has "foreknown" them. To "know" somebody is to have a relationship with them.
Jesus used the verb "to know" in Matthew 7:23, where he clearly means "You and I never had a relationship together."
I think the reason why we find so many interpretations of a verse is more likely due to personal preference and worldview.
So you admit that God gives each person a measure of faith? But for some reason you want to say that you came up with saving faith on your own? How does that work?
The passage you quoted highlights the boast of those who have a proven faith. There is only one reason why a faith remains, even after sustaining trials and tribulations. "The Love of God is poured out into the heart in the form of the Holy Spirit." And under that condition, a person's hope will not be disappointed.
You got that wrong. It was Abraham's faith that was accounted as Justifedness. Abraham wasn't justified because he had faith. Abraham's faith indicated that he was justified.
No, that is not fatalism. You left out an essential component of fatalism, which is nihilism -- the idea that nothing really matters.
Not According to Peter, who said that Paul is hard to understand.
I find it interesting how some make becoming Born Again by the Spirit of God, so very complicated.You are doing a bang-up job here C+Z. Keep up the great work.
What is missing by most in this type of conversation is the fact as my heart was a witness to it, that 'most' folks are first moved by God to come to salvation, like the first step before preparing our heart for cultivation and then fertilization in planting the holy seed into our heart. We enter into salvation as God moves first by His will to affect/infect our heart with his presence. It is not up to us and our own will at all.
He rattles it and revealed the sin within our heart. Then if our heart/spirit is sincerely and humbly moved by this at all, we then compel ourselves, as our own desire to REPENT to God, as we then have opened the door for God to go to work. It is a holy spiritual affair, of God's will that brings salvation to us, not as a quiet, even sincere space of time where we decide alone when and how to make a decision one day to be saved. I question one's salvation when one says it is this way, and its a decision based on my free-will. It makes me gringe, especially because that never happened to me when God one day gave me his Spirit through his Son. Our will at the moment, prior to and after receiving the Spirit of God is completely yielded or arrested and suppressed by our choice because of God's overwhelming presence and our sense of love for him. We are made this way, to come to our Creator in awe of his presence, and give ourselves to him, to perform his surgery on us, as the fragile mortal and human being that we are in comparison.
.....Blessings to you and your work here...
Well said RJ, and I can really dig what you said here. I see too many folks thinking and believing that possessing the Spirit of the Son and of the Father is purely an intellectual human decision and exercise, from start to finish; from what I read, anyway. It is God's calling and his method of saving us, not ours. When one reads we must believe and in faith or obey commandments these terms MUST be unpacked.I find it interesting how some make becoming Born Again by the Spirit of God, so very complicated.
For me, and as God’s word says....we are Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed....that’s His “ Living “ word....that one must receive into ones heart/spirit...the Living Spirit gives birth to spirit.....it’s by the Living word of God that we become His Spiritual children....not by “ our word”....
Faith is Alive And Active and must be planted into our spirit by God’s Living word, in other words His Living Spirit, the Holy Spirit...so very simple to understand...Spirit gives birth to spirit....that’s it, a done deal.....then we are heirs with Christ, we then grow and mature in the Spirit.....as the word of God is Alive and Active.
Faith is also a manifestation of the Spirit...without God’s witness who resides in our spirit permanently....how can we get to know God through his Living word / Spirit.....we can’t!
A Born Again produces fruit of the Spirit....there is no fruit in our spirit....that’s why we must be Born Of The Spirit by the Will Of God....it’s a Supernatural/ Spiritual event m that in my case, blew me socks off......
My opinion and belief 100%.
I’m not here to ram it down some peoples throats that they have it all wrong....but, I will always give all the Glory to God regarding my second Spiritual birth.....God did it all.....the Supernatural/ Spiritual rebirth that is....no man or woman on the planet could ever....Spirit gives birth to spirit....I am Born Of The Spirit, 100% now belong to God....who can do whatever he likes with this child of His....He has my heart/ spirit 100% Praise His Holy Name!
Because I am his child, my will, will always come inline with His, eventually, he chose me for His Purpose and plan, I am not my own anymore......a Born Again...Will always GLORIFY GOD.......I died when I became Born Again.......I no longer live, God lives in me...I’m His property as was bought for a price....Jesus was that price.
Short commentary.Well said RJ, and I can really dig what you said here. I see too many folks thinking and believing that possessing the Spirit of the Son and of the Father is purely an intellectual human decision and exercise, from start to finish; from what I read, anyway
The Gospel is a command. We are commanded to believe.Paul never frames salvation as an offer.
Jesus is the Elect Servant. All who are in Christ share what He has, including His election. We were chosen "in Him". We are not "in Him" until we are reborn.Have you never read that "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in love"? This is a clear elucidation of the concept of predestination.
I find it interesting how some make becoming Born Again by the Spirit of God, so very complicated.
For me, and as God’s word says....we are Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed....that’s His “ Living “ word....that one must receive into ones heart/spirit...the Living Spirit gives birth to spirit.....it’s by the Living word of God that we become His Spiritual children....not by “ our word”....
Faith is Alive And Active and must be planted into our spirit by God’s Living word, in other words His Living Spirit, the Holy Spirit...so very simple to understand...Spirit gives birth to spirit....that’s it, a done deal.....then we are heirs with Christ, we then grow and mature in the Spirit.....as the word of God is Alive and Active.
Faith is also a manifestation of the Spirit...without God’s witness who resides in our spirit permanently....how can we get to know God through his Living word / Spirit.....we can’t!
A Born Again produces fruit of the Spirit....there is no fruit in our spirit....that’s why we must be Born Of The Spirit by the Will Of God....it’s a Supernatural/ Spiritual event m that in my case, blew me socks off......
My opinion and belief 100%.
I’m not here to ram it down some peoples throats that they have it all wrong....but, I will always give all the Glory to God regarding my second Spiritual birth.....God did it all.....the Supernatural/ Spiritual rebirth that is....no man or woman on the planet could ever....Spirit gives birth to spirit....I am Born Of The Spirit, 100% now belong to God....who can do whatever he likes with this child of His....He has my heart/ spirit 100% Praise His Holy Name!
Because I am his child, my will, will always come inline with His, eventually, he chose me for His Purpose and plan, I am not my own anymore......a Born Again...Will always GLORIFY GOD.......I died when I became Born Again.......I no longer live, God lives in me...I’m His property as was bought for a price....Jesus was that price.
To me, this is the heart of the matter.No Scripture teaches that God created anyone repenting and believing; rather, God patiently urges, reasons with, pleads with, commands, admonishes, and warns everyone to repent and believe (Romans 2:4-6; Acts 17:30; Isaiah 1:18-20; Ezekiel 18:23; Ezekiel 33:11; Jeremiah 32:33; Acts 7:51-57; Jeremiah 18:10-12; Matthew 22:3; Matthew 23:37; Isaiah 45:21-22; and so many more).
Yes, "Born Again" is simple, and is explained to Nicodemus by Lord Jesus.
On the subject of being “born again” in (John 3:8), Nicodemus’ questions “How can these things be?” (John 3:9). After rebuking Nicodemus, Lord Jesus answers Nicodemus in “John 3:13-18.” Lord Jesus is teaching to Nicodemus, and to all of us, how these things can be; in that, the new birth of the Spirit is the eternal life of God.
The above is not how God says we are Born Again.The indwelling Spirit is eternal life, and we possess that eternal life by faith after hearing the Gospel Word. We pass out of spiritual death onto life by faith, not so we can believe (John 5:24).
One can’t believe in Jesus without God given Faith, then one believes, because they have been Born Of The Spirit.John 5:24 (WEB) 24 Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.