Dan Clarkston
Active Member
You gave no Scripture that teaches that being "chosen" means that God causes you to believe and remain faithful by the indwelling Spirit.
They have to twist scripture to get their doctrine and engage in subterfuge
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You gave no Scripture that teaches that being "chosen" means that God causes you to believe and remain faithful by the indwelling Spirit.
Well, you may think this is heresy but I think Paul the Apostle would disagree.It's absolutely false doctrine to teach or believe that the Lord assigns some people to burn in hell before they are ever born, before they have ever even had the opportunity to sin or be involved in wrong doing.
That isn't necessarily true. Paul will never contradict the prophets, but he doesn't need to make reference to the prophets.Being an Apostle does not mean Paul can write his Epistles without OT prophecy to back up what he is teaching. Paul gave evidence from the OT Scriptures for everything he was teaching the Church, and more so for the Jewish population.
You can see it for yourself.Here you give more vague references. Where, in "Romans 5, 1 Peter 1, James 1" does it plainly teach that endurance in belief is a gift of God?
I apologize. I thought you read Romans 9.You throw in "chosen" as if the Bible interprets "chosen" like you do, but you give no Scripture proof.
Yes, but endurance in believe proves that God chose them because God is the one who guarantees endurance.Those God chooses to save are those who believe, according to all the Scriptures.
Not all believers are the chosen. Only those who have attested faith are the chosen.The believers are the Chosen of God whom Paul and Peter were writing to.
It doesn't matter who reads the letter. All three apostles clarify the subject.Were Paul and Peter writing to the unbelievers or believers in Christ to instruct them?
I did. You must have missed it.You gave no Scripture that teaches that being "chosen" means that God causes you to believe and remain faithful by the indwelling Spirit.
The phrase "by faith" doesn't indicate that faith is the means to grace. If there were a means to grace, as Paul said, it wouldn't be grace.The Promise and Grace of God is by faith, the same faith Abraham had in God.
Again, you and I both know that John 3:16 isn't true for all believers. It applies to those who endure and never fall away. Peter, Paul, and James tell us who, among all the believers, will never fall away.Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.
John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life
So you say. But you confuse correlation with causation. Belief and the indwelling are correlated and sometimes coincidental. But God does not pour out his spirit on every believer. He pours out his spirit on those whom he has chosen.There is a difference between renouncing the detestable things (repentance), and being able to walk in God's statutes and keep His ordinances.
We have to genuinely believe first, a commitment to obey Lord Jesus, before we receive life from the indwelling Spirit.
Sure, but even those who truly believe might fall away. God prepares the hearts of those whom he intends to save and none of them will ever fall away.True Faith, by which we receive the Spirit, always includes repentance, by which renounce evil and commit to obey Lord Jesus, following him.
Not everyone who repents or believes is being saved. Only those whom God chooses to save will receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and never fall away.What Ezekiel is teaching us is that we must first repent - a commitment to renounce evil and to follow Lord Jesus. When we do so, the Spirit indwells us to give us the ability to walk in His statutes that we committed to when we first believed.
No. I am saying that God must first give an individual a new heart and a new spirit so they will endure. God guarantees that those he has chosen will never fall away.So, are you saying that God must first give you a new heart and a new spirit so you can repent and believe?
Is that what Paul meant to say? I don't think so.God is not willing that "anyone" should perish, even those who remain in wickedness.
I disagree. The fact that God warns people to repent, doesn't nullify divine determinism.As you can see, God is kind and patient with all mankind, desiring us to repent, leading us to repentance, but not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly is leading all mankind to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed and created mankind to think and act according to His will.
Well, you may think this is heresy but I think Paul the Apostle would disagree.
Some will remain others won't. Peter tells you the reason why some don't, but your quote left that part out.I will show you what the Apostles actually taught; though, I am not sure I know who the other two Apostles are that you speak of.
The Christians are admonished to remain in the faith to be saved:
1 Peter 1:9 (ENIV) 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Anyone who believes this has not understood what they teach.
None of the Apostles taught that God guarantees that we will endure in the faith to the end;
We have seen from Peter that endurance is a gift of God's grace, which is true of all those whom God has caused to be born again to a living hope.rather, they teach that the responsibility to endure in the faith is completely upon each Christian.
who endures temptation . . .James 1:12-16 (James instructing the Church) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him... 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
What does belief have to do with it? Is God saving those who believe that Paris is the capital of France? Is he saving those who believe that water freezes at zero degrees Celsius? What an odd thing to say.A person receives the Holy Spirit by believing, period.
Jesus is being descriptive, not prescriptive, with his language. What he says about believers is true only to the degree that said believers persevere in the faith. And perseverance is a gift of God's grace.We receive the Spirit by faith, not so we can believe
John 7:37-38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
No. I believe that we must be given the Spirit so we can endure in belief. Remember the parable of the sower. Only the soil that the farmer has tilled and cultivated will produce a faith that endures.
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit {{{through faith}}}.
By believing we receive the Spirit. You believe we must receive the Spirit so we can believe, but that is not what the Scriptures teach.
It makes sense to me.Your doctrine does not even make sense.
Hardening doesn't keep someone from believing. Hardening keeps someone from repenting.Why would God harden someone when they already cannot believe unless the being indwelt by the Holy Spirit???
It doesn't take power to believe. All it takes is rationality. God exerts his power to maintain our belief.So, now you are saying that the Spirit does not give us the power to believe?
You didn't address the question though. In your view, it is okay for God to foreclose on individual free will. And for some reason this doesn't bother you. Paul clearly argues that some people in Israel did not attain justification because God hardened some individuals. And he also argued that God granted mercy (not hardening) to others.That was sufficiently explained. God desires to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32), just like God did with Israel all through Israel's history. However, God's patience has limits, just as God explains in His dealing with Israel. Paul's use of the "Potter and the Clay" is the same as God's use of it in Jeremiah 18, although Paul does not give the details in that section of Romans 9, but if you keep reading Romans 9 (See: Romans 9:30-33, and Romans 1:22-28), you will see that it was the Jew's continued lack of faith that caused God to harden them.
If one compares Jeremiah with Romans, one will notice that Jeremiah's potter analogy makes a different point than Paul's potter analogy. Jeremiah's potter analogy illustrates how God deals with nations, making them and remaking them as he sees fit, in response to repentance or obstinance, as the case may be.God gives us reasons why he forms someone for noble or ignoble purpose, and that all depends on whether the sinner will resist or repents (Jeremiah 18:1-12; 2 Timothy 2:19-22).
The Apostle Paul didn't show or demonstrate the mankind has freedom of the will. Rather, everyone already knows this. He has no reason to prove or demonstrate something that everyone knows.The Lord taught thru the Apostle Paul that men have free will and can fall away from the Lord and end up being lost after having been born again.
Well, this thread is dedicated to untwisting the verses.In order to hold the calvinist position, one must only on to verses they can twist to make them sound like God is calvinist while rejecting / ignoring the whole counsel of God which blinds them to the Truth. It's sad really.
The Apostle Paul didn't show or demonstrate the mankind has freedom of the will
Well, this thread is dedicated to untwisting the verses
That isn't necessarily true. Paul will never contradict the prophets, but he doesn't need to make reference to the prophets.
Not all believers are the chosen. Only those who have attested faith are the chosen.
The phrase "by faith" doesn't indicate that faith is the means to grace. If there were a means to grace, as Paul said, it wouldn't be grace.
Again, you and I both know that John 3:16 isn't true for all believers. It applies to those who endure and never fall away. Peter, Paul, and James tell us who, among all the believers, will never fall away.
Sure, but even those who truly believe might fall away. God prepares the hearts of those whom he intends to save and none of them will ever fall away.
Is that what Paul meant to say? I don't think so.
I disagree. The fact that God warns people to repent, doesn't nullify divine determinism.
1 Peter 1:4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you . . .
Verse 4 in the passage is based on Peter's thesis statement in verse 3, which talks about a specific group of people chosen by God to be born again. Those who have been born again by God have a hope that is unfailing. Furthermore, they will inherit imperishable treasures that are reserved for them in heaven.
1 Peter 1:6-7 In this, you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
Peter does not recommend sadism. He isn't saying that we should be happy because we are feeling Pain. The suffering doesn't make us happy. Rather, he is saying that we should be happy when our faith is proven. A proven faith will result in praise and glory, he says. Our suffering only lasts a little while by comparison to our glory, which lasts forever. And the proving of our faith is valuable to us personally because it ratifies our personal outcome.
What does belief have to do with it? Is God saving those who believe that Paris is the capital of France? Is he saving those who believe that water freezes at zero degrees Celsius? What an odd thing to say.
No. I believe that we must be given the Spirit so we can endure in belief. Remember the parable of the sower. Only the soil that the farmer has tilled and cultivated will produce a faith that endures.
Hardening doesn't keep someone from believing. Hardening keeps someone from repenting.
It doesn't take power to believe. All it takes is rationality. God exerts his power to maintain our belief.
You didn't address the question though. In your view, it is okay for God to foreclose on individual free will. And for some reason this doesn't bother you. Paul clearly argues that some people in Israel did not attain justification because God hardened some individuals. And he also argued that God granted mercy (not hardening) to others.
I can only assume that as a fellow Christian, you believe that God's mercy is unmerited. I also believe that God's mercy is unmerited grace. .
If one compares Jeremiah with Romans, one will notice that Jeremiah's potter analogy makes a different point than Paul's potter analogy. Jeremiah's potter analogy illustrates how God deals with nations, making them and remaking them as he sees fit, in response to repentance or obstinance, as the case may be.
Paul's potter analogy deals with the question of God's choice and why God is not unjust to choose a person before they are born. Paul's analogy has nothing to say about God's interaction with human beings after they are born.
Jeremiah's potter analogy:
1) deals with nations, not individuals.
2) illustrates God's ability to reform a nation that repents.
Paul's potter analogy:
1) deals with individuals, specifically, individuals "of the promise."
2) helps the reader understand why God is not unjust to deal with individuals based on a choice he made before they were born.
Agreed, Paul would never contradict God. However, Paul's teaching and commentary are only sometimes based on prior revelation. As an Apostle of Jesus Christ, he has been given spiritual wisdom and insight into the mystery of God's will, which allows him to provide new revelation.Paul would never contradict God.
I understand. But it doesn't follow that since Paul employs the OT to make theological points, he always does so. Sometimes he doesn't. But when he does, he expects his Jewish readers to open the Bible to the passage at hand and see that his point is supported by the OT passage.The fact is that Paul did give Scripture evidence, referring to the OT, for the whole Gospel revelation he preached about. That is how Paul reasoned with the Jews. If you use a study Bible, you will see all the many OT references Paul made in his Epistles.
That is a misunderstanding of my view. I would never argue that all believers will have the same experience or outcome because that is different from what the Apostles argue. I explained in my previous posts that the Apostles qualify their statements about perseverance. Paul's statement about perseverance, for instance, is restricted to a subset of believers who each have a unique quality about them.Your belief is that there is a difference in “faith” of believers that the Apostolic Writers were writing to.
No, the passages I quoted don't have warnings within them. They are meant to encourage us to persevere under persecution, knowing that those whom God is saving will not fail to save them. He gives us his Holy Spirit as a surety.In contrast to your belief, the Apostles’ letters are all addressed to, and directed to, the true Spirit indwelt believers to instruct and warn them to remain faithful to receive eternal life lest they be cut off. While unbelievers may also view Paul's letters, Paul specifically addressed his letters to the true born again Christians.
No, the Apostles taught that we are saved by grace through faith.That is your belief, but the Apostles taught that God's grace is not by works but by faith (Romans 2:4-5).
Right. And all true believers will be saved. They will never fall away.All true believers receive the Holy Spirit.
The Apostles taught that born again, Spirit indwelt believers would not fall away.Whether the Spirit indwelt believers remain in the faith is another matter of concern that the Apostles warned the true Spirit indwelt believers about in their Letters to the Churches.
I disagree because Peter, Paul and James teach us that those with the indwelling Holy Spirit will not fall away. The power of God keeps them until the day of salvation.The indwelling Spirit does not prevent us from falling away, nor does the Spirit maintain our faith;
Your argument relies on "if" statements, which are inherently filled with contingency. But such "if" statements do not defeat or nullify other statements where the Apostles have removed all contingency. Such arguments purposely ignore the power of God and his saving work.rather, the NT Writers warn that the Spirit indwelt believers are obligated to live by the Spirit to have life.
What he said should be understood from within the context where it appears. What is Paul's point in that passage?That is what he said, whether you are enabled to accept it or not.
I apologize, but where does Paul say that God allows us to make our own choices in the matter? I don't think Paul teaches that. On the contrary, Paul says that our salvation is a matter of God's choice, not our choice.God is patient with ALL mankind leading us to repentance; for, God’s kind intention is to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32); however, Paul teaches us that God allows us to make our own choice in the matter, as Paul plainly taught.
As I said in a previous post, "If-statements" and warnings are expressions of uncertainty and contingency. However, if we solely focus on these passages and ignore other parts that depict situations where God removes all uncertainty, we will fail to have a balanced view of the overall picture.I believe in Divine Determinism; in that, God has determined to save all those who freely choose to believe in Lord Jesus. And God has determined to judge all those who refuse to believe (John 1:16-18). God has determined that true believers who remain faithful to the end will be permanently saved in His Kingdom.
And they remain faithful because God has chosen them and exerts his power on their behalf.Although our faithfulness does not merit our salvation, God counts as worthy to stand before the Son of Man, those who do remain faithful.
That's right. But God is the one who guarantees to keep those whom he has chosen from falling away.We all agree that the hope believers have is in the unfailing promises of God, because God’s promises are true; however, that does not mean that some believers, who presently have this hope, will not later fall away into false doctrine or sinful lusts.
The Apostles qualify their statements and restrict them to individuals who have unique qualities. You quote 2 Peter 1:8-11, which is an "if-statement" addressing conditions and qualifications for those whom God is saving. However, I pointed you to 1 Peter chapter one, where Peter's message concerns a subset of believers from whom God has removed all contingency. I'm not suggesting that you ignore the "if-statements". I am suggesting you balance them with surety statements. In that chapter, Peter is concerned about those who "were born again into a living hope."We all agree that the trials of life prove our faith, but where does Peter say that our faith is guaranteed to endure through these trials?
I understand, but you place a greater emphasis on "believing" than the Apostles do. Belief is necessary, but it is a symptom of a deeper and more profound inner transformation. According to Paul in Romans chapter 2, a "true Jew" is one who is inwardly transformed, and it is this transformation that pleases God. Those who worship God must worship him in mind, heart, soul, and spirit.If you were reading the context, you would realize this has nothing to do with Paris, or water freezing. Only true believers receive the Spirit.
My point centered on the content of belief, specifically, content that challenges my existence. It is relatively easy to believe that Paris is the capital of France. This fact doesn't challenge my integrity, character, or value system. It says nothing about ME, personally. But the idea that I am a damnable sinner, worthy of hell and damnation is a negative remark about who I am. The Bible tells me that I am a sinner from the core of my being and that truth is a derogatory remark aimed directly at me, if I choose to accept the truth about myself.Question: Does the Spirit indwell a person because he believes that Paris is the Capital of France, or does the Spirit indwell a True repentant believer in Lord Jesus?
It isn't a matter of ability. According to the Apostles, they don't.That does not mean Spirit indwelt believers cannot fall away from the faith.
The scriptures you quoted don't nullify the other scriptures indicating the removal of contingency.Not according to the Scriptures I quoted for you.
Not according to the Apostles.Born again Christians can and do fall away
The warnings are public, not individual. For those whom God is saving, the warnings become the arena in which to prove faith., and that is why the Apostles keep warning the Brothers and Sisters in Christ to remain faithful,
Those with an indwelt spirit will never give up. That is the promise.lest they fall away and be cut off. The Spirit will only give eternal life to the Spirit indwelt believer who continually sows to the Spirit without giving up.
In my mind, those two ideas are the same idea. If God provides the power to be saved by our faith in him, then it follows that God exerts his power to maintain our faith. If we are left to fall away, then we are maintaining our own faith.Can you show me the Scriptures that teach “God exerts his power to maintain our belief? So far, you have provided verses that you say prove this to be true, but, in fact, they only prove God provides the power to be saved by our faith in him.
The scriptures you quoted prove that God exerts his power to maintain our belief.So, show me the Scriptures that plainly teach that God exerts his power to maintain our belief.
You didn't address my ACTUAL question because I don't think you understand it. I can only lament over my inability to communicate the idea. I can see that you think what you said makes sense, and is a logical answer but it isn't.I addressed this same question of yours at least 5 times so far. You cannot comprehend the response because your doctrine has veiled your eyes so you cannot see. God's desire is to save all, even those who remain in wickedness (Romans 2:4-5), and God offers his grace of salvation to all (John 3:16); however, God has every right to harden people so they cannot repent and be saved again, either temporarily or permanently, because they continually refused God’s grace, choosing instead to live for their own lusts or their false doctrines.
Not only this, but they both exemplify that God creates in real-time. In Jeremiah, he is talking about forming nations and reforming them if they become "spoiled" in the process. In Romans, Paul is talking about forming particular individuals based on his purpose for them. In Jeremiah, the question at hand is whether God has the right to reform a nation that has been "spoiled." In Romans, the question is whether God has the right to punish or reward a person before they have had the ability to do good or evil?The “Potter and Clay” analogy is the same in "Jeremiah 18" and "Romans 9;" in that; both recognize God’s will to choose whom he will form for blessing or punishment, or for noble or ignoble purposes.
Paul isn't even making the same point that God made in Jeremiah.Paul is not contradicting God; rather, Paul is not, at this time, giving a detailed view of God's reasons, which God himself stated in Jeremiah 18, for forming some for blessing and others for punishment.
No, I am understanding each potter analogy within the passage where it appears. God's word in Jeremiah has no bearing on Romans 9.What you are doing, is ignoring God’s reasons for forming some for blessing and others for punishment; and then, you are forcing your own doctrine of “Diving Determinism” into Paul’s writing, as if that is what Paul was teaching of "how" God forms some for blessing and others for punishment.
Agreed, Paul would never contradict God. However, Paul's teaching and commentary are only sometimes based on prior revelation. As an Apostle of Jesus Christ, he has been given spiritual wisdom and insight into the mystery of God's will, which allows him to provide new revelation.
I understand. But it doesn't follow that since Paul employs the OT to make theological points, he always does so. Sometimes he doesn't. But when he does, he expects his Jewish readers to open the Bible to the passage at hand and see that his point is supported by the OT passage.
For instance, Paul argues that Isaac, not Ishmael, was a child of promise. Anyone can look at the book of Genesis to verify the facts of the matter. Indeed, it is true, based on the book of Genesis, that Ishmael was not a child of promise, but Isaac is a child of promise.
Paul also argues that God is not unjust in electing Jacob over Esau even before the boys were born because God has the right as a creator to elect anyone he wants based on his purpose for each individual. He uses a Potter analogy in his argument.
Peter explains,
1 Peter 1: 6-7
In this, you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ . . .
The Apostles qualify their statements and restrict them to individuals who have unique qualities. You quote 2 Peter 1:8-11, which is an "if-statement" addressing conditions and qualifications for those whom God is saving. However, I pointed you to 1 Peter chapter one, where Peter's message concerns a subset of believers from whom God has removed all contingency. I'm not suggesting that you ignore the "if-statements". I am suggesting you balance them with surety statements. In that chapter, Peter is concerned about those who "were born again into a living hope."
We follow Paul's argument to it's logical conclusion and draw inferences from what he said. I interpret Paul according to his argument. And I avoid overlaying Jeremiah's prophecy onto Paul's argument because Paul's argument stands on its own. Those who overlay Jeremiah onto Romans 9, will draw the wrong conclusion and obscure what Paul intended to say.You write that Paul would never contradict God, but yet you want to interpret Romans 9 as if Paul was teaching that God acts according to your doctrine of Divine Determinism.
Paul argued that God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau before the boys were born. God's decision to treat the boys differently did not depend on their actions, good or bad. Instead, God regarded each boy according to his purpose for each boy. One might complain that God's decision is arbitrary and, therefore, unjust. Paul defends God's integrity by pointing out God's transcendent nature as the creator of all that exists. Just as a pot maker has the right to determine whether a pot will be a vase or a toilet, God has the right to determine whether a person will serve to demonstrate God's mercy or serve to demonstrate God's justice. And God behaves toward each individual according to his purpose for that individual.Yet, Paul never taught that God determines everything, including all the choices we make (good or bad) as if this was all in a script.
On the contrary, he explains that God creates each individual for a specific purpose and then he treats them accordingly. And he sets each individual's purpose beforehand.Paul does not explain the reasons “why” God acts in this isolated section of his Letter to the Romans.
Here, Paul indicates that God's mercy depends solely on his purpose and not on the merit of others.For instance, God 'shows mercy on whom he will show mercy, and compassion on whom he will show compassion' (Romans 9:15). Regarding salvation, Paul explains that God’s kind intension to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).
On the contrary, God's has mercy on whom he will show mercy. Therefore it doesn't depend on whether or not someone refuses his grace. It can't be both ways.In addition, God is completely righteous, showing no discrimination or favoritism; God’s wrath is on those who refuse His grace by the Gospel of Christ.
According to God's word, we are saved by Grace through faith.According to God's Word, we access God's saving grace by faith, just as Abraham did.
God not only makes promises, he loves and hates individual people. "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated." If God loves an individual, he pours out his Holy Spirit into their hearts and this guarantees that they will never fall away.To those who believe, God makes promises, but if we fall from the faith, we are cut off from the promises God made to Israel.
Descriptive not prescriptive.Grace is granted to those who have faith.