Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy

[Timtofly]

Paul actually said we are not to mourn our dead brothers and sisters because, "...the dead in Christ shall rise..." For the dead to rise they have to be dead. The word "shall" means sometime in the future. In this case it's when Jesus comes back to gather us together. Until then, the dead are really dead. With something that clearly stated, I see no reason to go through a bunch of mental gymnastics so as to accord with a preconceived idea. Just accept what's written as it's written.

You are taking Scripture out of context, and then not even pointing to the passage you quoted. You all do mental gymnastics over the fact the OT redeemed literally all came out of sheol with physical bodies per Matthew 27:52-53

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

That happened hours before the thief even died himself. He went straight to Paradise and put on the building Paul states in 2 Corinthians 5:1.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Those that came out of their graves had that permanent incorruptible physical body, but they had to wait to ascend physically with Jesus on Sunday morning.

The thief entered Paradise that day, the instant his soul left this temporal corruptible physical body. That is when he put on the permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise.

 

[Rich R]

The body does not determine who you are. The soul does. The soul has a body. The soul has a spirit that is separated from us in our state of death. In this state of death we are a soul that has put on a physical body. That is it. The spirit will be put on at the Second Coming. I do not adhere to Greek philosophy. Nor much of church theology given by converts from Greek tradition. We do not have the spirit in us. The word spirit in that usage just means air. I don't even care for the terms mortal or immortal.

Have you ever looked at Greek philosophy and Egyptian myths regarding soul and compared it to church doctrine? They are virtually identical.

Of course that in and of itself is no proof that the church got it's doctrine from them. However, if you compare what the Bible says about the dead (take an honest look at the verses I've quoted for starters), it raises some serious questions as to just where the church doctrine did come from.

 

[Rich R]

You are taking Scripture out of context, and then not even pointing to the passage you quoted. You all do mental gymnastics over the fact the OT redeemed literally all came out of sheol with physical bodies per Matthew 27:52-53

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

That happened hours before the thief even died himself. He went straight to Paradise and put on the building Paul states in 2 Corinthians 5:1.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Those that came out of their graves had that permanent incorruptible physical body, but they had to wait to ascend physically with Jesus on Sunday morning.

The thief entered Paradise that day, the instant his soul left this temporal corruptible physical body. That is when he put on the permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise.

I'll just go over the thief on the cross with Jesus. The rest you quoted can be explained in such a way that they agree with the several clear verses I quoted that say the dead are really dead, but they require a bit more background and an open mind which admittedly is very difficult in light of 2,000 years of tradition. Nonetheless, the true words have also been around for 2,000 years, so it is possible to break the bonds of tradition with truth.

Anyway, the thief: you may know that in the original texts, there was no punctuation. The commas and periods we see in our modern translations were not put their by God. People put them there and as such carry no ultimate weight when it comes to truth.

Here's how pretty much all translations put Luke 23:43:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

​

With the comma after, "Verily I say unto thee," it would indeed indicate that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise that day. But there is a big problem with that. Did Jesus go to paradise that day? No. The Bible is clear that he spent three days in the grave. Also it contradicts the many clear verses I quoted that say the dead have no thoughts, don't praise God, etc.

But let's look at what happens if we move that comma after the words, "To day." If one man can put it after "I say unto thee" there is no reason another man can put it somewhere else. Neither was really God's idea.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

Now it says that Jesus told the thief that day, i.e. he said the words that day, that some day in the future he would be with Jesus in paradise. What day would that be? Revelation chapter 19 talks about the resurrections. Jesus also spoke about them. But if the dead aren't really dead, what's the point of those future resurrections? There would be no point! Anyway, when understood in this way, we don't have to explain away the verses that say the dead have no thoughts, don't praise God, etc. Everything agrees and the integrity of God's word stands.

I'll touch briefly on the bodies that came out of the graves when Jesus rose. Where does it say they went to paradise? It doesn't. Something else must be at play here. I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[Timtofly]

Have you ever looked at Greek philosophy and Egyptian myths regarding soul and compared it to church doctrine? They are virtually identical.

Of course that in and of itself is no proof that the church got it's doctrine from them. However, if you compare what the Bible says about the dead (take an honest look at the verses I've quoted for starters), it raises some serious questions as to just where the church doctrine did come from.

Certainly not from Jesus, nor Paul the apostle.

 

[Timtofly]

I'll just go over the thief on the cross with Jesus. The rest you quoted can be explained in such a way that they agree with the several clear verses I quoted that say the dead are really dead, but they require a bit more background and an open mind which admittedly is very difficult in light of 2,000 years of tradition. Nonetheless, the true words have also been around for 2,000 years, so it is possible to break the bonds of tradition with truth.

Anyway, the thief: you may know that in the original texts, there was no punctuation. The commas and periods we see in our modern translations were not put their by God. People put them there and as such carry no ultimate weight when it comes to truth.

Here's how pretty much all translations put Luke 23:43:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

​

With the comma after, "Verily I say unto thee," it would indeed indicate that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise that day. But there is a big problem with that. Did Jesus go to paradise that day? No. The Bible is clear that he spent three days in the grave. Also it contradicts the many clear verses I quoted that say the dead have no thoughts, don't praise God, etc.

But let's look at what happens if we move that comma after the words, "To day." If one man can put it after "I say unto thee" there is no reason another man can put it somewhere else. Neither was really God's idea.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

Now it says that Jesus told the thief that day, i.e. he said the words that day, that some day in the future he would be with Jesus in paradise. What day would that be? Revelation chapter 19 talks about the resurrections. Jesus also spoke about them. But if the dead aren't really dead, what's the point of those future resurrections? There would be no point! Anyway, when understood in this way, we don't have to explain away the verses that say the dead have no thoughts, don't praise God, etc. Everything agrees and the integrity of God's word stands.

I'll touch briefly on the bodies that came out of the graves when Jesus rose. Where does it say they went to paradise? It doesn't. Something else must be at play here. I'll leave it at that for now.

Jesus was God, and had 3 separate parts.

The body did not go to Abraham's bosom nor Paradise. Certainly you would not say the thief entered the same tomb as Jesus did, and call the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea: Paradise.

The soul of Jesus went to Abraham's bosom. The spirit went to be with God in Paradise. But Paradise is where God inhabits a physical place, so the thief went to Paradise then, just like Stephen did when he was stoned to death.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus was God, and had 3 separate parts.

The body did not go to Abraham's bosom nor Paradise. Certainly you would not say the thief entered the same tomb as Jesus did, and call the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea: Paradise.

The soul of Jesus went to Abraham's bosom. The spirit went to be with God in Paradise. But Paradise is where God inhabits a physical place, so the thief went to Paradise then, just like Stephen did when he was stoned to death.

I trust you are born again as I am. In the overall scheme of things that is the most important. The rest will be sorted out and made plain when Jesus comes back. Of course if you are right, we don't have to wait until Jesus comes back. Still, I can't help be wonder if it's the latter, why will he bother to come back? I mean we'd already be with him. We'll see at some point though. On that I think we can agree.

 

[Timtofly]

I trust you are born again as I am. In the overall scheme of things that is the most important. The rest will be sorted out and made plain when Jesus comes back. Of course if you are right, we don't have to wait until Jesus comes back. Still, I can't help be wonder if it's the latter, why will he bother to come back? I mean we'd already be with him. We'll see at some point though. On that I think we can agree.

Jesus comes back to set up the 7th Kingdom for the Day of the Lord. The Second Adam has yet to physically oversee a subdued earth without sin and decay. Paul said:


"Jesus must reign until all enemies are destroyed, and earth is subdued".

That is what the Day of the Lord is for. Satan is bound for a thousand years, and many more humans will be born on earth for that last millennium. The 7th Trumpet declares Jesus as the King over all nations.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus comes back to set up the 7th Kingdom for the Day of the Lord. The Second Adam has yet to physically oversee a subdued earth without sin and decay. Paul said:


"Jesus must reign until all enemies are destroyed, and earth is subdued".

That is what the Day of the Lord is for. Satan is bound for a thousand years, and many more humans will be born on earth for that last millennium. The 7th Trumpet declares Jesus as the King over all nations.

Sounds good. What is the 7th Kingdom? It's something new to me.

 

[Keraz]

Have you ever looked at Greek philosophy and Egyptian myths regarding soul and compared it to church doctrine? They are virtually identical.

Of course that in and of itself is no proof that the church got it's doctrine from them. However, if you compare what the Bible says about the dead (take an honest look at the verses I've quoted for starters), it raises some serious questions as to just where the church doctrine did come from.

The most dramatic illustration of what happens to us when we die can be seen in the passage from John 11:38-44 where Yeshua calls Lazarus back from the dead. He did not call him back out of heaven - but from out of the grave. Why? Because Lazarus was dead - not hanging out in some etherial netherland. There is no Hebrew thought in the Original Writings of a person's soul (which is translated as the English "spirit") being separated from the rest of what it means to be human. The division of man into "body-mind-soul" is a thoroughly Greek invention elaborated on by the Greek philosopher, Plato, in his book "the New Republic". The Hebrew word, nephesh has been translated into the English "soul" because of the influence of the Greek word psyche introduced into the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanakh (OT), also known as the LXX). In the Hebraic perspective, however, human beings are one homogenized entity - the person, the nephesh. When the apostle Paul cites the Hebrew Habakkuk 2:4 in Romans 1:17 and Galatians 3:11, he is not speaking as if the soul could be saved but the body could not. Paul is speaking about the entire person, the Hebrew nephesh. Just as the verse in Habakkuk suggests, it is not a soul that is "puffed up", it is an entire way of being in the world that involves everything about a person - thoughts, choices, feelings, will and consequent actions. Compounding this doctrinal error is the unscriptural belief that humans possess an immortal soul. To this day, pastors within Christendom teach that, at death, the soul goes to a place called "heaven" for doing well, or to purgatory or "hell" for committing various degrees of evil. This concept of the immortality of the soul being something apart from the rest of a man only began appearing into what became "Christian" theology some 200 to 250 years after the Resurrection of Yeshua when the writings of Ignatius, Marcion and Origen began the process of syncretism (which is the merging or fusion of different systems of thought or belief). However, the scriptures themselves do not teach the immortality of the soul; rather, they reveal, "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment; so Jesus, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to rescue from death those who are eagerly waiting for Him." (Hebrews 9:27, Matthew 16:27).

Neither do the scriptures reveal that when one dies, the soul goes to heaven or hell leaving the body behind. Rather, it clearly shows that when one dies they await the resurrection of the dead - both of the righteous and of the wicked (Daniel 12:2, John 5:25-29, 1Corinthians 15:24-28, Revelation 20:13).

The apostles were witnesses that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, fulfilling the Promise of God, that is vital to others within His Family having the hope of also being raised from the dead just as He was.

Yeshua did not resurrect Himself - that was the Father's doing. Had the Father not raised Him, He would still be there (Romans 8:11). Since there is no "time" in eternity, consequently, there is no time between a person's death and their resurrection. This is why scripture describes those who have died as being "asleep" because when you are asleep, there is no conscious awareness of the passage of time.
Ref: haRold Smith

 

[Timtofly]

Sounds good. What is the 7th Kingdom? It's something new to me.

2 times in Revelation, it is said Jesus will rule over the nations. Revelation 12:5

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

Revelation 19:15

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron."

In Revelation 11:15 at the 7th Trumpet, Jesus is declared the King over the nations.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Starting with the statue in Daniel 2, there would be 5 world empires to rule the nations in their scope of influence. Those 5 kingdoms covers from Daniel to the Reformation. In Revelation, John included two more kingdoms to make 7, but the 7th was different, as the 7th head became the 8th kingdom, not the 7th kingdom.

That is why in Revelation 17:10-11 we see:

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

The 8th king is of the 7, so there is still a 7th that is not part of this dragon/beast. This dragon only has 7 heads, not 8.

So the 7th King is not a person from the earth, but the Lamb declared King of all nations at the 7th Trumpet. The 8th king is not both the 7th and 8th, so only the Lamb fits the 7th Kingdom.

We have been under the 6th Kingdom since the Reformation. The one that is not really a kingdom, but mortally wounded. The church destroyed the statue at the Reformation, as that is when the 5th Kingdom fell, showing that the first 5 have fallen.

 

[Rich R]

The most dramatic illustration of what happens to us when we die can be seen in the passage from John 11:38-44 where Yeshua calls Lazarus back from the dead. He did not call him back out of heaven - but from out of the grave. Why? Because Lazarus was dead - not hanging out in some etherial netherland. There is no Hebrew thought in the Original Writings of a person's soul (which is translated as the English "spirit") being separated from the rest of what it means to be human. The division of man into "body-mind-soul" is a thoroughly Greek invention elaborated on by the Greek philosopher, Plato, in his book "the New Republic". The Hebrew word, nephesh has been translated into the English "soul" because of the influence of the Greek word psyche introduced into the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanakh (OT), also known as the LXX). In the Hebraic perspective, however, human beings are one homogenized entity - the person, the nephesh. When the apostle Paul cites the Hebrew Habakkuk 2:4 in Romans 1:17 and Galatians 3:11, he is not speaking as if the soul could be saved but the body could not. Paul is speaking about the entire person, the Hebrew nephesh. Just as the verse in Habakkuk suggests, it is not a soul that is "puffed up", it is an entire way of being in the world that involves everything about a person - thoughts, choices, feelings, will and consequent actions. Compounding this doctrinal error is the unscriptural belief that humans possess an immortal soul. To this day, pastors within Christendom teach that, at death, the soul goes to a place called "heaven" for doing well, or to purgatory or "hell" for committing various degrees of evil. This concept of the immortality of the soul being something apart from the rest of a man only began appearing into what became "Christian" theology some 200 to 250 years after the Resurrection of Yeshua when the writings of Ignatius, Marcion and Origen began the process of syncretism (which is the merging or fusion of different systems of thought or belief). However, the scriptures themselves do not teach the immortality of the soul; rather, they reveal, "...it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment; so Jesus, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to rescue from death those who are eagerly waiting for Him." (Hebrews 9:27, Matthew 16:27).

Neither do the scriptures reveal that when one dies, the soul goes to heaven or hell leaving the body behind. Rather, it clearly shows that when one dies they await the resurrection of the dead - both of the righteous and of the wicked (Daniel 12:2, John 5:25-29, 1Corinthians 15:24-28, Revelation 20:13).

The apostles were witnesses that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, fulfilling the Promise of God, that is vital to others within His Family having the hope of also being raised from the dead just as He was.

Yeshua did not resurrect Himself - that was the Father's doing. Had the Father not raised Him, He would still be there (Romans 8:11). Since there is no "time" in eternity, consequently, there is no time between a person's death and their resurrection. This is why scripture describes those who have died as being "asleep" because when you are asleep, there is no conscious awareness of the passage of time.
Ref: haRold Smith

You're right!

Gen 2:7,

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

​

It's plain in the very beginning that God did not create man's body and put a soul into it. Man was a living soul. Man was a living soul because he breathed. When the breathing stops the man is no longer living, he is dead. I've seen enough dead people to notice they aren't breathing.

Often times in the scriptures "soul" is put by the figure of speech synecdoche where a part of something stands for the whole. Acts 2:41 being but one example. We still use it today. When filing a flight plan part of the information is, "X number of souls on board."

Two thousand years of tradition is a tough nut to be cracked, but Genesis 2:7 wasn't written yesterday. It's been there for anybody who wants to know the truth.

I bought into the lie for many years, but it didn't take much convincing me to change. I really didn't at all like the thought of floating around on a cloud and playing a harp for eternity. People are earthlings. Have been from the beginning.

Sadly, the state of the dead is not the only Greek philosophy currently reigning in the orthodox church. I don't think it would far from the truth to suggest that there is more Greek philosophy in the orthodox church than scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

You're right!

Gen 2:7,

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

​

It's plain in the very beginning that God did not create man's body and put a soul into it. Man was a living soul.

Man is both a soul and has an internal soul. Two different types of souls.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Rich R]

Man is both a soul and has an internal soul. Two different types of souls.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

How would you suggest we make 1 Thess 5:23 agree with Gen 2:7?

 

[ewq1938]

How would you suggest we make 1 Thess 5:23 agree with Gen 2:7?

Man is both a soul and has an internal soul. Two different types of souls.

Soul has three definitions.


1: The word soul is an old English term that could be used in place of the word "person" or "human being". Basically if you had a soul you could be called a soul.


2: The word soul can be a reference to the human body.


3: The word soul is also the spiritual part of human beings (it's moral and emotional aspect), and survives death and will wait for a physical body to inhabit again at the resurrection.


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we have all the parts that comprise a whole person:

body
soul
spirit


The soul here is definition 3.


1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here soul is speaking of all three, body soul and spirit together as a complete person. This would be a soul as in definition 1 and 2.


Human beings have a soul and a spirit and a body. Colloquially a person is a "soul" but a different type of soul than the soul within us.

 

[Timtofly]

1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So 8 spirits got off the ark, and gave birth to all the nations?

They were souls, because they did not die in the Flood. They actually still had a physical body as well.