Whose immortality? The last Adam's (Christ's), or our own?

[Zao is life]

What is the Orthodox Christian view on this? (by "Orthodox" I mean the opposite of heretical, not "Official Orthodox Church doctrine")

We do know the following:-

We know that Jesus said,

"Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in γέεννα géenna (gehennah)" -- Matthew 10:28

Gehennah is the word that Jesus used as a symbol of a state of everlasting destruction every time He spoke of everlasting destruction. (Mat.5:22, 29 & 30 | Mark 9:43, 45 & 47; Mat.10:28; Mat.18:9; Mat.23:15 & 33; Luke 12:5; James 3:6),

but whenever He or the apostles spoke of the place of departed souls (Lazarus and the rich man etc), the word haides is used, which is also the word that the LXX always uses to translate the Hebrew word sheol.

Both words were consistently translated as "hell" by the translators of the KJV.

In the Revelation of Jesus Christ to His churches, John saw a vision of all whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life experiencing a second death, which the Revelation also calls the lake of fire - but Jesus also begins to close His Revelation with the words:

Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

Adam had the right to freely eat of the tree of life before he disobeyed God's commandment - and obedience required no action on Adam's part. It was disobedience that required an action, which was brought about by a conscious choice.

So it was disobedience that brought death to Adam. Continued obedience would not have been an action, but it would have been evidence of believing the Word of God, in Whom John 1:4 tells us is life. That life is imparted to the one who believes.

According the the Revelation only those who do His commandments will have the right to the tree of life, and obedience requires no action but only faith (believing in) the Word of God in Whom is life,

so we do not attain this (already given) gift of God ourselves through obedience, any more than Adam could, but only through faith (believing in) Christ. We can only experience death through acts of disobedience.

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men." - John 1:4.

Everlasting life is in the Word, and we are told:

"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;” -- John 5:26

We are not told that any other human has life in himself.

But we ARE told that God has given us life, and that this life is in His Son, and that we receive it through faith.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 6
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Genesis 2
9 And out of the ground made Yhwh God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

16 And Yhwh God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

22 And Yhwh God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore Yhwh God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Revelation 2
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Assemblies; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Garden of God.

Revelation 22
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It's clear that (eternal) Life is imparted by the One in Whom is life.

We are also told in scripture that our dead bodies will be resurrected through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and by the same power.

Everlasting life in a body that does not die is also called "immortality", and this is what we are told about Christ:

“Who only hath (ἔχω échō) immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.” -- 1 Timothy 6:16.

The word échō (Strongs 02192) expresses possession.

So is 1 Timothy 6:16 telling us that we will all possess our own immortality, or is it telling us that the One who has life in Himself alone possesses immortality, and that all humans will come to share in the same immortality that is the last Adam's (Christ's) immortality - also since it is through HIS resurrection and the power of HIS resurrection that all will be raised bodily from the dead?

The interpretation of the second death is for the eschatology board, so I won't comment on it here.

But it's clear that we are not told that all human beings have life in ourselves - it's the life of Christ that is given to us through faith in Him. What about immortality?

 

[Rightglory]

What is the Orthodox Christian view on this?

So is 1 Timothy 6:16 telling us that we will all possess our own immortality, or is it telling us that the One who has life in Himself alone possesses immortality, and that all humans will come to share in the same immortality that is the last Adam's (Christ's) immortality - also since it is through HIS resurrection and the power of HIS resurrection that all will be raised bodily from the dead?

Why is this so difficult for you to understand. First, Christians are not Pantheists. We do not become God and share in His immortality.
All human beings will be raised from the dead because of the resurrection of the Incarnated Christ. I Cor 15:21-22 is addressing this point.
Death came to all men as a consequence of Adam's sin, that is mortality - capable of death. Christ, who assumed that same human nature will give it life, immortality because He arose from the dead with that same human nature. I Cor 15: 53-54 reiterates this fact. This is a created immortality, it is NOT the same as God's immortality.
We are and will always be created beings. We will not become God.

But it's clear that we are not told that all human beings have life in ourselves - it's the life of Christ that is given to us through faith in Him. What about immortality?

This is referencing spiritual life, not physical life. Our relationship with God, spiritual life is through faith, believing in Him and remaining faithful we will inherit this life for an eternity. While those who do not believe, will not inherit an eternal relational, spiritual life but will exist apart from that life.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is the Orthodox Christian view on this?

Gehennah is the word that Jesus used as a symbol of a state of everlasting destruction every time He spoke of everlasting destruction. (Mat.5:22, 29 & 30 | Mark 9:43, 45 & 47; Mat.10:28; Mat.18:9; Mat.23:15 & 33; Luke 12:5; James 3:6),

Yes, Gehennah is a trash dump. It is where you put things you don't want in the holy city.

but whenever He or the apostles spoke of the place of departed souls (Lazarus and the rich man etc), the word haides is used, which is also the word that the LXX always uses to translate the Hebrew word sheol.

Hades refers to the place human spirits go after their bodies have died. Jesus made the place of the dead a "Paradise" for those who belong to him.

Both words were consistently translated as "hell" by the translators of the KJV.

Yes, unfortunately, "Hell" came to imply strictly the place of eternal punishment, when it originally just meant the place *all people* go at physical death, saint and sinner.

In the Revelation of Jesus Christ to His churches, John saw a vision of all whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life experiencing a second death, which the Revelation also calls the lake of fire - but Jesus also begins to close His Revelation with the words:

The "2nd Death" is beyond Hades. It is Eternal Punishment, beyond human mortality and physical death. It is eternal separation from God's city, just as physical death is separation from the present world.

so we do not attain this (already given) gift of God ourselves through obedience, any more than Adam could, but only through faith (believing in) Christ. We can only experience death through acts of disobedience.

The idea that obedience and repentance, as well as human work, are unneeded in responding to Christ's righteousness is wrong. We do not earn Salvation anymore than sinful Man was able to achieve final atonement for his sins.

But to say we need do nothing is absurd. To have faith is to simultaneously repent. And to repent requires that we *do something.*

In accepting Christ we choose to live by his life, as opposed to our own life. We go his way instead of our own way. We choose to live in partnership with him, with him as our Lord, as opposed to independent living, rejecting and rebelling against the word of God.

The idea that "faith" is the opposite of "works," or negates anything we "do," is absurd, wrong, and unbiblical. It originates from Protestant Doctrine that had been concerned to show we don't earn our own Salvation. While it is true that Christ must approach us 1st with the word of God in order for us to respond to it it is equally true that we must respond to it!

You will *never* be able to get around this biblical statement, unless you wish to rebel against it:

Mark 1.15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

 

[Zao is life]

Why is this so difficult for you to understand. First, Christians are not Pantheists. We do not become God and share in His immortality.
All human beings will be raised from the dead because of the resurrection of the Incarnated Christ. I Cor 15:21-22 is addressing this point.
Death came to all men as a consequence of Adam's sin, that is mortality - capable of death. Christ, who assumed that same human nature will give it life, immortality because He arose from the dead with that same human nature. I Cor 15: 53-54 reiterates this fact. This is a created immortality, it is NOT the same as God's immortality.
We are and will always be created beings. We will not become God.

This is referencing spiritual life, not physical life. Our relationship with God, spiritual life is through faith, believing in Him and remaining faithful we will inherit this life for an eternity. While those who do not believe, will not inherit an eternal relational, spiritual life but will exist apart from that life.

No one said anything about becoming God. That's your own false assumption.

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Christ is fully God, but He is also 100% Man. There is the first Adam and there is the last Adam. We share in the death of the first Adam, because we are all his seed. We share in the resurrection of the last Adam, because spiritually we have been born of God. His own Spirit, and we are the seed of Abraham who believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness.

The key words you have made it plain that you fail to see in verse 21 of 1 Corinthians 15 are BY MAN, and by this you are betraying the fact that you do not fully understand what it means for Christ to be the Son of man and the last Adam. The fact that He is also the Son of God makes no difference to the fact that by man came death, and because of Christ's resurrection from the dead, by man will come immortality - and that man is Christ, who has put His Spirit into us, Who also quickens our dead bodies through our faith in Christ.

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

We do not become God. That blasphemous false assumption about what I have said is in your own misunderstanding. We will share in the resurrection and immortality (@Rightglory meant to write inheritance) of the last Adam. Do we become God because of this? No, we don't. Likewise through His Spirit who gave us birth we will share in the immortality of the last Adam, who alone owns (possesses) immortality, which came about through His resurrection.

 

[Zao is life]

The idea that obedience and repentance, as well as human work, are unneeded in responding to Christ's righteousness is wrong.

No one said that obedience and repentance are not required by God. That's your false assertion about what others say.

We do not earn Salvation anymore than sinful Man was able to achieve final atonement for his sins.

Exactly - but yet you still combine them because you combine human works with faith and say this = salvation.

But to say we need do nothing is absurd. To have faith is to simultaneously repent. And to repent requires that we *do something.*

In accepting Christ we choose to live by his life, as opposed to our own life. We go his way instead of our own way. We choose to live in partnership with him, with him as our Lord, as opposed to independent living, rejecting and rebelling against the word of God.

The idea that "faith" is the opposite of "works," or negates anything we "do," is absurd, wrong, and unbiblical.

What you say about combining faith and human works as necessary for salvation (or at least implying that) is what is absurd, unbliblical, and wrong.

Salvation is not by faith + works. We are not saved by works AT ALL. Good works (the fruit of the Spirit) flows from the Spirit in the believer, which is also why Jesus said we must abide in the Vine because without Him, we can do nothing. This does not mean we can continue in sin. Continuing to sin is a sign that the person is not abiding in the Vine, or is not saved at all.

What you say betrays the fact that you do not fully understand the gospel.

It originates from Protestant Doctrine that had been concerned to show we don't earn our own Salvation.

This again is expressing your own belief in what is not true, not that of the Protestants. What Jesus did on the cross earned our salvation - completely, and our works do not add to it, and His resurrection is the power of God that gives us the assurance of our own resurrection individually. You have really bluffed yourself if you think that the good works (fruit of the Spirit) that flows from the Spirit of Christ in the believer earns or adds to our salvation, and you now walk around blindfolded to the true gospel, although you can still see partially through the cloth.

We choose to live in partnership with him

You cannot live in partnership with Him by producing your own human works. If your works are not produced by the Spirit (the fruit of the Spirit of Christ in you) through your spirit being in communion with His Spirit, then you have combined your own working for your salvation with Christ's finished work of salvation.

While it is true that Christ must approach us 1st with the word of God in order for us to respond to it it is equally true that we must respond to it!

Which is exactly what Christ said and what His apostles said, and does not prove anything else you say about this. It only proves that you have built yourself a sandcastle of erroneous and false doctrine above what is true. At least your rock is Christ. The straw you are expressing that you have built on top of the rock will be burned up in due time - as well as any straw I or anyone else has built on top of the rock upon whom alone our salvation stands.

Mark 1.15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Well only you will understand why you falsely imply that myself and Protestants in general do not believe that we all needed to repent and believe the good news.

You have shown that you do not fully believe the good news, though. By what you have said you have shown that you have chosen to add your own human works to it, which is going to get you nowhere, because your righteousness produced by your obedience i.e your works will always be tainted with sin, unlike Christ's, who has become THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS unto those who place their faith 100% in Him and in His works and 0% in their own good works.

The fruit of the Spirit that Jesus has told you that you will not be able to produce apart from Him is the fruit of the Spirit of Christ in you. It is not your fruit,

and the fruit of the Spirit of Christ in you which prompts you to do what is right and restrains you from doing what is wrong, does not become your fruit through your obedience.

 

[Zao is life]

We choose to live in partnership with him

You cannot live in partnership with Him by producing your own human works. If your works are not produced by the Spirit (the fruit of the Spirit of Christ in you) through your spirit being in communion with His Spirit, then you have combined your own working for your salvation with Christ's finished work of salvation.

Maybe you should spend less time on attacking Protestant doctrine and more time on attempting to understand what they are saying, and where you are going wrong.

@Randy Kluth it does not answer the question in the OP, which is why I'm pointing out that you are attacking Protestant doctrine instead of sticking to the scriptures.

No one has offered a good explanation of why 1 Timothy 6:16 says that Christ alone possesses immortality.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You cannot live in partnership with Him by producing your own human works.

So who is going to do the believing, who is going to do the repenting, if it isn't the person whose faith and whose repentance it is? This is not the same thing as claiming a person can self-atone or self-justify before God and earn Eternal Life. You are confusing these things.

People do believe, and people do repent. And they do good works, all acceptable in eternity before God. They just must be done in response to the word of Christ and in partnership with him. All the virtue is his.

Therefore, we obtain virtue by exercising it willfully when we see that word, receive that word, and choose to live by that word. It isn't being done by somebody else! Our partnership with Christ does *not* mean that we do the work of atonement together with Christ! Rather, our partnership consists of letting Christ take the lead, and then become willing servants, and then obedient children.

If your works are not produced by the Spirit (the fruit of the Spirit of Christ in you) through your spirit being in communion with His Spirit, then you have combined your own working for your salvation with Christ's finished work of salvation.

Maybe you should spend less time on attacking Protestant doctrine and more time on attempting to understand what they are saying, and where you are going wrong.

I was born a Protestant, and am a life-long Protestant. So nobody is more qualified than me to criticize what Protestants believe and where their beliefs (our beliefs) have gone south.

I'm *not* a Catholic. I'm not Orthodox. I'm Protestant. I'm a big fan of both Luther and Calvin, along with the rest of them. I even have sympathies for Separatists.

@Randy Kluth it does not answer the question in the OP, which is why I'm pointing out that you are attacking Protestant doctrine instead of sticking to the scriptures.

No one has offered a good explanation of why 1 Timothy 6:16 says that Christ alone possesses immortality.

Christ alone possesses immortality because Paul is referring to a divine attribute, and not to endless living or endless existence.

1 Tim 6.15 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever.

Here you have Paul defining how he is using the word "immortality." He is using it in the sense of it being combined with eternal Deity, and being infinite. This, by definition, does not apply to anything that was made. It is a different kind of endless existence that is known *only* to God Himself.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No one said that obedience and repentance are not required by God. That's your false assertion about what others say.

You say that our "works" play no role in our Salvation. But then you deny that you forbid "obedience and repentance" in our Salvation. These things are works, not done to earn Salvation, but an essential element in our Salvation.

It is critical for you to understand the difference here--otherwise, we're just wasting time. I'm not saying our involvement in our Salvation, ie our Works, have anything to do with earning our Salvation, with helping Christ to save us, with self-atonement or self-Justification. I'm just saying that Christ himself required that we repent when we believe.

Believing does not stand apart from the works of repentance--they are identified as the same. You don't get faith without works. And if we're to do works that are acceptable in our Salvation, it must be in response to the word of Christ. He initiates the action. We respond.

The virtue is not ours, but his. Our only virtue is in our willful obedience to the word of Christ.

Exactly - but yet you still combine them because you combine human works with faith and say this = salvation.

I've never said that our works or our partnership with Christ means we earn our Salvation! I've said that repeatedly. At the same time, Christ himself made human works part of Salvation when he called for men to "believe and repent." Those are human works, by definition.

What you say about combining faith and human works as necessary for salvation (or at least implying that) is what is absurd, unbliblical, and wrong.

I never never said our works *earn* Salvation! When I say that works are *necessary* for Salvation I mean that God requires that we repent and believe, that we respond to God's word willfully. Those are works we *must* do, works that are *necessary* in our Salvation.

I've been down this road many times. I know that when the person I'm speaking with refuses to understand my point there is no sense reading further.

 

[Rightglory]

The key words you have made it plain that you fail to see in verse 21 of 1 Corinthians 15 are BY MAN, and by this you are betraying the fact that you do not fully understand what it means for Christ to be the Son of man and the last Adam. The fact that He is also the Son of God makes no difference to the fact that by man came death, and because of Christ's resurrection from the dead, by man will come immortality - and that man is Christ, who has put His Spirit into us, Who also quickens our dead bodies through our faith in Christ.

Our bodies are not quickened by faith. We, mankind, do not receive immortality by faith. We all get immortality at the resurrection in the last day. I Cor 15:53-54. Quicken means to make physically alive, not spiritually or relational which we get by faith.

 

[Zao is life]

You say that our "works" play no role in our Salvation. But then you deny that you forbid "obedience and repentance" in or Salvation. These things are works, not done to earn Salvation, but an essential element in our Salvation.

It is critical for you to understand the difference here

It's critical for you also to understand the difference here. I do understand the difference, but your argument makes it clear you do not, unless you are just using this as a straw-man argument.

The word repentance implies a change of mind which produces a complete turn-around and the obedience it produces is obedience through faith, not by human works. In your argument you have obedience which is - by your own words - human - obedience (which is the same as human obedience to commandments or law) mixed up with good works produced by obedience to Christ through faith, which is produced by an individual's response to the Spirit of Christ in the repentant person.

--otherwise, we're just wasting time. I'm not saying our involvement in our Salvation, ie our Works, have anything to do with earning our Salvation, with helping Christ to save us, with self-atonement or self-Justification. I'm just saying that Christ himself required that we repent when we believe.

So you've been using it all along as a straw-man argument in order to falsely imply that I am denying that Christ Himself required that we repent when we believe, by mixing up human works with works that are produced by faith in Christ which produces obedience to Christ, and thereby wasting my time.

Believing does not stand apart from the works of repentance--they are identified as the same. You don't get faith without works. And if we're to do works that are acceptable in our Salvation, it must be in response to the word of Christ. He initiates the action. We respond.

Which is exactly what I have said. So why are you falsely implying I have it differently?

The virtue is not ours, but his.

Thanks for repeating what I have said in different words.

Our only virtue is in our willful obedience to the word of Christ.

A requirement obeyed does not create virtue. Choose which one you would like it to be. Human virtue, or obedience through faith in Christ?

I've never said that our works or our partnership with Christ means we earn our Salvation! I've said that repeatedly. At the same time, Christ himself made human works part of Salvation when he called for men to "believe and repent." Those are human works, by definition.

Repentance means a complete turn-around from an old way of life. It involves a lot more than good works produced by faith in Christ. You have an obsession with the word "works" and have conflated human works with works produced by the Spirit of Christ in those who believe, which shows that you do not understand what you are "correcting" others about.

I never never said our works *earn* Salvation! When I say that works are *necessary* for Salvation.

There we go. Christ's finished work on the cross are the only works that were necessary for salvation. You do indeed have works earning salvation by the things you say, instead of righteous or good works produced by obedience to Christ - the Vine - as prompted by His Spirit, the evidence of salvation.

I mean that God requires that we repent and believe, that we respond to God's word willfully.

We respond to God's word willingly and to the Spirit of Christ willingly i.e obedience by faith in Christ. The fact that you chose the word "willfully" speaks volumes because it once again shows that you have human self-effort conflated with the fruit of the Spirit and walking by the Spirit (by faith in Christ) so as to produce the works of the Spirit and not to do the works of the flesh.

Those are works we *must* do, works that are *necessary* in our Salvation.

There are no human works necessary for salvation. Salvation is ALL the finished work of Christ and NONE of us. If we do not have works produced by faith in Christ evident in our lives - the fruit of the Spirit - it shows that we are either not abiding in the Vine or were never saved by faith in Christ in the first place.

I've been down this road many times. I know that when the person I'm speaking with refuses to understand my point there is no sense reading further.

What you don't know is that your point is based on your own misinterpretation of repentance and works.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The word repentance implies a change of mind which produces a complete turn-around and the obedience it produces is obedience through faith, not by human works.

Clearly, you do not understand. Why bother if you're not going to want to understand? I've repeatedly told you that when we speak of "human works" in the sense of earning our own Salvation I'm *not* advocating for that! What I do advocate for is the idea that there is the human element in our repentance, which is a form of works, that has nothing to do with *earning our Salvation.*

In your argument you have obedience which is - by your own words - human - obedience (which is the same as human obedience to commandments or law) mixed up with good works produced by obedience to Christ through faith, which is produced by an individual's response to the Spirit of Christ in the repentant person.

I don't even know what that means? "Human?" You're advocating for "non-human repentance?"

So you've been using it all along as a straw-man argument in order to falsely imply that I am denying that Christ Himself required that we repent when we believe, by mixing up human works with works that are produced by faith in Christ which produces obedience to Christ, and thereby wasting my time.

I think you're totally confused. Go back to what I said about our works of repentance having *nothing* to do with *earning our own Salvation.* Then we can try again....maybe.

You said, "There are no human works necessary for salvation. Salvation is ALL the finished work of Christ and NONE of us."

So you don't believe repentance from our sin and self has anything to do with obtaining our Salvation? Or you don't believe we need to repent at all to be Saved? In either case, you don't answer what I quoted you from the words of Jesus, “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

So you don't believe Jesus said that we must repent and believe to be Saved? Do you just cross that verse out of your book?

You always come back with, "But we don't earn our Salvation by works of repentance." But brother, NOBODY said any different! I'm just saying what Jesus said, that the works of repentance are part of our Salvation even though we don't earn it. We are being *required* to repent, or do you refuse to answer this question?

 

[Zao is life]

Zao is life said:

The key words you have made it plain that you fail to see in verse 21 of 1 Corinthians 15 are BY MAN, and by this you are betraying the fact that you do not fully understand what it means for Christ to be the Son of man and the last Adam. The fact that He is also the Son of God makes no difference to the fact that by man came death, and because of Christ's resurrection from the dead, by man will come immortality - and that man is Christ, who has put His Spirit into us, Who also quickens our dead bodies through our faith in Christ.

Our bodies are not quickened by faith.

I did not say our bodies are quickened by our faith. I said our bodies are quickened by God and the only way this can happen is if we walk by faith. I grow tired of your straw-man arguments, which are evidence that you have painted yourself into a corner

Romans 8 our bodies are quickened by the Spirit of God when we walk in the Spirit by faith.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The only way we can be led by the Spirit of God and hence be in the Spirit of God is to walk by faith in Christ.

Your repeated false accusations are straw-man arguments that prove you have no biblical argument.

We, mankind, do not receive immortality by faith.

Tell me where I said we receive immortality by faith (instead of by the power of Christ's resurrection) please, or rather just stop making yourself look foolish with building your case on a pile of straw-man arguments.

We all get immortality at the resurrection in the last day. I Cor 15:53-54. Quicken means to make physically alive, not spiritually or relational which we get by faith.

We got justified because of Christ's blood shed for our sins.
We receive eternal life n Christ because Christ has life in Himself.
We get resurrected at the last day because we are resurrected by the power of Christ's resurrection.
We become immortal because of Christ's immortality, who alone posses immortality, and our dead bodies are quickened by the Spirit of Christ.
Christ is the last Adam.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." -- Matthew 10:28

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -- Revelation 20:14-15

You make the omnipotent God incapable of destroying both body and soul in gehenna with your human immortality that cannot be done away with - the kind of immortality that SCRIPTURE TELLS YOU only Christ possesses.

There will be a resurrection of the just and of the unjust. Both will have immortal bodies. Yet the unjust will be destroyed and there will be a second death.

It's because Christ alone owns | possesses immortality.

 

[Zao is life]

Clearly, you do not understand. Why bother if you're not going to want to understand? I've repeatedly told you that when we speak of "human works" in the sense of earning our own Salvation I'm *not* advocating for that! What I do advocate for is the idea that there is the human element in our repentance, which is a form of works, that has nothing to do with *earning our Salvation.*

I don't even know what that means? "Human?" You're advocating for "non-human repentance?"

I think you're totally confused. Go back to what I said about our works of repentance having *nothing* to do with *earning our own Salvation.* Then we can try again....maybe.

You said, "There are no human works necessary for salvation. Salvation is ALL the finished work of Christ and NONE of us."

So you don't believe repentance from our sin and self has anything to do with obtaining our Salvation? Or you don't believe we need to repent at all to be Saved? In either case, you don't answer what I quoted you from the words of Jesus, “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

So you don't believe Jesus said that we must repent and believe to be Saved? Do you just cross that verse out of your book?

You always come back with, "But we don't earn our Salvation by works of repentance." But brother, NOBODY said any different! I'm just saying what Jesus said, that the works of repentance are part of our Salvation even though we don't earn it. We are being *required* to repent, or do you refuse to answer this question?

Well you say I don't understand even while you make it clear it's you who does not understand (but only understands your own interpretation of reality) so we are going around in circles and may as well be done because otherwise we will just continue with the cross-accusations.

PS: YOU used the word human when you spoke of works.

@Randy Kluth You keep saying in various ways that our works save us even after Jesus saved us. Neither of us denies that good works - the fruit of the Spirit - must be evident in the life of the believer who is saved by grace. So your arguments are more straw-man arguments and whether this is deliberately done by yourself or not, your straw man arguments also act as red herrings that do not answer the question in the OP.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well you say I don't understand even while you make it clear it's you who does not understand (but only understands your own interpretation of reality) so we are going around in circles and may as well be done because otherwise we will just continue with the cross-accusations.

PS: YOU used the word human when you spoke of works.

Yes, we're not going anywhere because as many times as I say I'm not talking about "human works that earn Salvation" you insist on coming back to that accusation. Not a good conversation....

 

[Zao is life]

EVERLASTING LIFE OWNED
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind." -- John 1:1-4

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

EVERLASTING LIFE GIVEN
"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

RIGHTEOUSNESS OWNED
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One. -- 1 John 2:1

RIGHTEOUSNESS GIVEN
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death. -- Philippians 3:9-10

IMMORTALITY OWNED
-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

IMMORTALITY GIVEN
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." -- 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.

CORRUPTION / DECAY
"The creation itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption [phthorá] into the glorious liberty of the children of God." -- Romans 8:21.

We got justified because of Christ's blood shed for our sins.
We receive eternal life in Christ because Christ has life in Himself.
We get resurrected at the last day because we are resurrected by the power of Christ's resurrection.
We become immortal because of Christ's immortality, who alone posses immortality, and our dead bodies are quickened by the Spirit of Christ.

Christ is the last Adam.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." -- Matthew 10:28

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -- Revelation 20:14-15​

 

[Rightglory]

Zao is life said:

The key words you have made it plain that you fail to see in verse 21 of 1 Corinthians 15 are BY MAN, and by this you are betraying the fact that you do not fully understand what it means for Christ to be the Son of man and the last Adam. The fact that He is also the Son of God makes no difference to the fact that by man came death, and because of Christ's resurrection from the dead, by man will come immortality - and that man is Christ, who has put His Spirit into us, Who also quickens our dead bodies through our faith in Christ.

I did not say our bodies are quickened by our faith. I said our bodies are quickened by God and the only way this can happen is if we walk by faith. I grow tired of your straw-man arguments, which are evidence that you have painted yourself into a corner

I have underlined the statement you made where you say that Christ, who has put His Spirit into us, who also quickens our dead bodies through faith. Then you say "I did not say our bodies are quickened by our faith. You are so confused on this issue you cannot keep track of what you say in succeeding statements.
It does not matter, mankind receives immortality at the resurrection through/because of the risen Incarnated Christ. That is the summary of ICor 15:21-22 as well as I Cor 15:53-54. It is also stated in Rom 5:18. Then there is your statement "quote" of scripture.......below

Romans 8 our bodies are quickened by the Spirit of God when we walk in the Spirit by faith.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The only way we can be led by the Spirit of God and hence be in the Spirit of God is to walk by faith in Christ.

Your repeated false accusations are straw-man arguments that prove you have no biblical argument.

Tell me where I said we receive immortality by faith (instead of by the power of Christ's resurrection) please, or rather just stop making yourself look foolish with building your case on a pile of straw-man arguments.

First, It is very clear in Rom 8:11 that our, namely, all of mankind actually, even though Paul is speaking to believers here, but the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, will also quicken OUR MORTAL bodies, which ONLY happens in the eschotan. Scripture does not contradict itself. Faith has NOTHING TO DO WITH MANKIND becoming IMMORTAL. It is the same Spirit, but then you should know that there is ONLY ONE Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit plays many roles in this world. It is the same Spirit that calls all men to repentance. It is the same Spirit that dwells in us so that we can follow God's will, be active believers which is another point you totally misunderstand in your discussion with Randy.

We got justified because of Christ's blood shed for our sins.
We receive eternal life n Christ because Christ has life in Himself.
We get resurrected at the last day because we are resurrected by the power of Christ's resurrection.
We become immortal because of Christ's immortality, who alone posses immortality, and our dead bodies are quickened by the Spirit of Christ.
Christ is the last Adam.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." -- Matthew 10:28

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -- Revelation 20:14-15

You make the omnipotent God incapable of destroying both body and soul in gehenna with your human immortality that cannot be done away with - the kind of immortality that SCRIPTURE TELLS YOU only Christ possesses.

There will be a resurrection of the just and of the unjust. Both will have immortal bodies. Yet the unjust will be destroyed and there will be a second death.

It's because Christ alone owns | possesses immortality.

You are very confused on a lot of issues here. First, I never stated or implied that man receives immortality on his own. Secondly, we, as humans do not get the immortality of Christ. We will never be God. When our bodies are resurrected, we receive immortality, not Christ's or more accurately, God's, but a created immortality.
You contradict yourself above again as well. You quote scripture again, "There will be a resurrection of the just and of the unjust. " How can this happened if believers get it through faith.
You take Revelations as literal, rather than as figuratively. Being able and actually doing it, are two different things. God does not destroy His created order, including mankind, all of mankind, and the world itself. Where those who inherited the second death, which is a spiritual separation from God for an eternity actually abide, scripture does not say. Those of the Second Death might wish they would be destroyed, but that will not happen. They will live eternally as well, as human beings.

 

[Zao is life]

I have underlined the statement you made where you say that Christ, who has put His Spirit into us, who also quickens our dead bodies through faith. Then you say "I did not say our bodies are quickened by our faith.

I think you need to do to a Christian Bible study course to find out the difference between through faith and by faith - because you are very, very confused.

Clue: We are saved by grace through faith. We are not saved by grace (and) by faith.

So simple even high school Sunday school students understand it.

You will never proceed beyond an elementary understanding until you understand this, as all your posts show - because as a result, you do not understand what scripture is telling you.

EVERLASTING LIFE OWNED
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind." -- John 1:1-4

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

EVERLASTING LIFE GIVEN
"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

RIGHTEOUSNESS OWNED
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One. -- 1 John 2:1

RIGHTEOUSNESS GIVEN
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death. -- Philippians 3:9-10

IMMORTALITY OWNED
-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

IMMORTALITY GIVEN
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." -- 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.

CORRUPTION / DECAY
"The creation itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption [phthorá] into the glorious liberty of the children of God." -- Romans 8:21.

We got justified because of Christ's blood shed for our sins.
We receive eternal life in Christ because Christ has life in Himself.
We get resurrected at the last day because we are resurrected by the power of Christ's resurrection.
We become immortal because of Christ's immortality, who alone posses immortality, and our dead bodies are quickened by the Spirit of Christ.

Christ is the last Adam.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." -- Matthew 10:28

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -- Revelation 20:14-15
​

Though we are given immortality because of the last Adam's (Christ's) immortality, Immortality will never belong to the created humans. It did not belong to Adam, though he was immortal before he sinned. His body only died after he sinned, and would not have died had he not sinned.

Immortality belongs only to Christ - but you do not believe what the scripture says. So just like Adam you believe that you will never die (in your case once you have been resurrected), because you do not believe that God is able to destroy both body and soul with everlasting destruction, regardless of immortality or incorruptibility (which is not decaying, not dying) that has been given to the sons of Adam - because it only BELONGS to Christ, as the scripture says.

 

[Zao is life]

You are very confused on a lot of issues here. First, I never stated or implied that man receives immortality on his own. Secondly, we, as humans do not get the immortality of Christ. We will never be God. When our bodies are resurrected, we receive immortality, not Christ's or more accurately, God's, but a created immortality.

You are showing once again that you are the one who is very confused on a number of issues. There will be no "created" immortality for billions of created humans. The only immortality is the immortality of the last Adam, which He EARNED.

Your false assertion that the last Adam's (Christ's) immortality that will be given to us "will make us God" is exactly the same as saying that the everlasting life of Christ, the last Adam, that is given to us "will make us God" - but you are adding a falsehood to what is written.

EVERLASTING LIFE OWNED
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind." -- John 1:1-4

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

EVERLASTING LIFE GIVEN
"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

Only in your imagination will that make the created human being "God".

It's the same with immortality. It is written that it belongs only to the Son of God, the last Adam, but will be given to us.

Only in your imagination will that make the created human being "God".

But you keep making it obvious that you do not believe what is written regarding Christ alone possessing immortality.

You contradict yourself above again as well. You quote scripture again, "There will be a resurrection of the just and of the unjust. " How can this happened if believers get it through faith.

READ the scripture without arguing against what is written.

Romans 8 our bodies are quickened by the Spirit of God when we walk in the Spirit by faith.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit (of Christ) is life because of (Christ's) righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The only way we can be led by the Spirit of God and hence be in the Spirit of God is to walk by faith in Christ.

The unbelievers do not consider themselves debtors to Christ so as to mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit. Therefore they will be resurrected, but will experience the second death in the lake of fire - because immortality is through faith in Christ.

"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15).

The lake of fire is THE SECOND DEATH.

You have made it clear that you are unable to grasp the most basic things (such as the difference between by faith and through faith) and so in your own confusion believe it's the scriptures telling you these things that you are confused with, and so you have produced your own theology based on your attempts to make things fit.

You take Revelations as literal, rather than as figuratively.

Here we go again. The same old tried false assertions by the ignorant pretending to be wise and "correcting" the "misunderstanding" of the "less informed" and "less wise". All your multiple false assertions are starting to make me yawn.

Revelation is full of symbology and metaphor that are telling is about literal things - such as the lake of fire being a metaphor for everlasting destruction of both soul and body in what Jesus elsewhere called "gehennah".

Being able and actually doing it, are two different things. God does not destroy His created order, including mankind, all of mankind, and the world itself.

Yeah right. Like the flood never happened. And like Jesus was being hypothetical when He told ALL of us to fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehennah (which means that we should fear God because He is able to destroy both soul and body WITH everlasting destruction).

But you show by your false assertions that you do not actually believe Jesus and believe the scriptures, because it will never happen, according to you - so Jesus spoke hypothetically, according to you.

Where those who inherited the second death

What do you mean "inherited" the second death? They will experience the second death because they did not inherit eternal life in Christ through their faith in Him, and the immortality that they find themselves with after the resurrection is not what they got through faith. Therefore they will experience the second death, because their names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Adam's death was the first death. Christ IS the resurrection and the life. The second death has not occurred yet.

But you do not even understand the difference between by faith and through faith, and this is why you are so confused about what the Word of God is telling you.

Those of the Second Death might wish they would be destroyed, but that will not happen. They will live eternally as well, as human beings.

The above statement is absolutely extra-biblical. You have produced it through pure speculation and conjecture in the imagination of your own mind.

But your posts prove that you don't actually believe everything that is written and do not stick to scripture, so it's not surprising that you assert the above.

 

[Rightglory]

I think you need to do to a Christian Bible study course to find out the difference between through faith and by faith - because you are very, very confused.

Clue: We are saved by grace through faith. We are not saved by grace (and) by faith.

So simple even high school Sunday school students understand it.

You will never proceed beyond an elementary understanding until you understand this, as all your posts show - because as a result, you do not understand what scripture is telling you.

EVERLASTING LIFE OWNED
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind." -- John 1:1-4

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

EVERLASTING LIFE GIVEN
"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

RIGHTEOUSNESS OWNED
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One. -- 1 John 2:1

RIGHTEOUSNESS GIVEN
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death. -- Philippians 3:9-10

IMMORTALITY OWNED
-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

IMMORTALITY GIVEN
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." -- 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.

CORRUPTION / DECAY
"The creation itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption [phthorá] into the glorious liberty of the children of God." -- Romans 8:21.

We got justified because of Christ's blood shed for our sins.
We receive eternal life in Christ because Christ has life in Himself.
We get resurrected at the last day because we are resurrected by the power of Christ's resurrection.
We become immortal because of Christ's immortality, who alone posses immortality, and our dead bodies are quickened by the Spirit of Christ.

Christ is the last Adam.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." -- Matthew 10:28

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -- Revelation 20:14-15
​

Though we are given immortality because of the last Adam's (Christ's) immortality, Immortality will never belong to the created humans. It did not belong to Adam, though he was immortal before he sinned. His body only died after he sinned, and would not have died had he not sinned.

Immortality belongs only to Christ - but you do not believe what the scripture says. So just like Adam you believe that you will never die (in your case once you have been resurrected), because you do not believe that God is able to destroy both body and soul with everlasting destruction, regardless of immortality or incorruptibility (which is not decaying, not dying) that has been given to the sons of Adam - because it only BELONGS to Christ, as the scripture says.

You can believe what you want. You have nothing but your opinion on the matter. What I gave to you has been the understanding of the gospel from the beginning. Your attempt to put your understanding or interpreting what I stated notwithstanding.
You have a problem in understanding someone and interpret them within your own understanding which invariably creates false statements. As I mentioned before with your discussion with Randy, Instead of trying to understand what he is actually saying, or asking the right questions, you interpret what he states to make it fit your own understanding. That creates circles which is what is happening in our discussion. You put words into my mouth that I never stated, nor implied. Then you claim what I stated was incorrect. No, what is incorrect is your understanding of what I stated.

 

[Zao is life]

You can believe what you want.

Thank you, I will. Because unlike you, I believe only in what is written in the scriptures, and I do not reject any parts that go against any beliefs that I may have held to the contrary, nor do I add anything to the scriptures.

So I've taken the liberty of bold-printing and underlining the scriptures below which either in this thread or in this other thread you have rejected because they go against your beliefs, and which scriptures you have added your own imagination and speculation to (for example by talking about people living in immortal bodies separate from God for all eternity). Correct me please if I have misunderstood any part of what you have been saying.

EVERLASTING LIFE OWNED
-- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

In him was life [zōḗ], and the life was the light of mankind." -- John 1:1-4

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

EVERLASTING LIFE GIVEN
-- "And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

RIGHTEOUSNESS OWNED
-- "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One. -- 1 John 2:1

RIGHTEOUSNESS GIVEN
-- "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death. -- Philippians 3:9-10

RESURRECTION OWNED
-- "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" -- John 11:25

-- "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -- John 14:6

RESURRECTION GIVEN
-- "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming." -- 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

IMMORTALITY OWNED
-- "He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." -- 1 Timothy 6:15-16

IMMORTALITY GIVEN
-- "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." -- 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.

CORRUPTION / DECAY
-- "The creation itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." -- Romans 8:21.

We got justified because of Christ's blood shed for our sins.
We receive eternal life in Christ because Christ has life in Himself.
We get resurrected at the last day because we are resurrected by the power of Christ's resurrection.
We become immortal because of Christ's immortality, who alone posses immortality, and our dead bodies are quickened by the Spirit of Christ.

Christ is the last Adam. There will be no immortality 'created' for billions of created humans. The only immortality is the immortality of the last Adam, which He EARNED. Just as with the resurrection from the dead.

-- "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna." -- Matthew 10:28. (You claimed Jesus was speaking hypothetically, without using the word hypothetical - but what you said implies that Jesus was speaking hypothetically).

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -- Revelation 20:14-15.

Those who will experience the second death written about in the Revelation will experience it because they did not inherit eternal life in Christ through faith in Him, so the immortality that they find themselves with after the resurrection of the just and of the unjust (Acts 24:15), will not be what they got through faith in Christ. Therefore they will experience the second death, because their names are will not be written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

So what could possibly be a motive for someone who knows the truth choosing to follow a lie, like Adam did? We only need to consider three things to find the answer:

1. Adam's motive.
2. The fact that Satan is cunning, subtle and crafty.
3. The fact that God permitted Satan to test immortal humans who were immortal.

Adam knew the truth. He knew Word of God. God spoke it to Adam directly. So Adam knew perfectly well that the words "You will not surely die" was a direct contradiction to what God had said, and the assertion of the serpent implied that God's words ".. you will surely die", were a lie.

What was Adam's motive for rejecting the Word of God?

".. For God ['ĕlôhîym] does know that in the day all of you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and all of you shall be as gods ['ĕlôhîym], knowing good and evil." -- Genesis 3:5.

It has to do with wanting to make oneself like the Most High, as in Isaiah 14:14's reference to the king of Babylon:

-- "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." -- Isaiah 14:14.

Only God has everlasting life in Himself. Satan's first lie was that Adam & Eve would not die.

'Once saved always saved' / eternal security is in Christ. Eternal life is in the Word. Immortality belongs to the last Adam. He EARNED it. Just as with the resurrection from the dead.

Both Genesis 2:7 and John 3:8 speak of the Spirit of God breathing His (eternal) life into man, and God alone has life in Himself. It follows that eternal zōḗ (eternal life), as well as immortality is in Christ alone, who alone possesses immortality according to the scriptures, and who alone has life in Himself, according to the scriptures. (1 Timothy 6:16; John 5:26).

God said to Adam:

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." (Genesis 2:17, literal translation from the Hebrew).

It implies that Adam (the creature) did not have immortality in himself, and this therefore gives us the knowledge that we do not have - and can never have - immortality | eternal life in ourselves.

It teaches us that if we do not abide in the Word of God, then we will die.

"You will not surely die" is a lie from the beginning:

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

It's always been about the Word we abide in:

".. you will surely die." vs.
"You will not surely die."

You have a problem in understanding someone and interpret them within your own understanding

Which is exactly what you have been doing with almost all my posts. You seem to be far more keen on proving your own understanding of the scriptures correct though it is produced by your rejection of some statements in scripture as well as adding doctrine that does not exist in the text.

I may have misunderstood @Randy Kluth and will get back to his posts when I get the time to see where I went wrong in understanding what he was saying or implying - but you should be concerning yourself with the fact that your finger-pointing is at the man in your mirror.

You have been on the attack since your first post in this thread by instead of dealing with the scripture, falsely accusing me of being pantheistic and making man God. You could have dropped the constant attacking and stick to the scriptures I quoted and discussing those scriptures only, as you went ahead and made your interpretation of the pertinent texts known. You chose not to.

And since in-between your attack mode and insulting manner you have already made your own private interpretation of the pertinent texts I have quoted known, claiming that your own personal interpretations, rejections and additions to the scriptures I quoted, are "Orthodox and have always been held by the church", there is no need for me to continue in this discussion with you.