Why are some interpreters not being honest with the text involving Daniel 9:27?

[Davidpt]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Anyone being honest with the text is going to take this entire verse to be pertaining to the 70th week, then interpret it based on that.

IOW...

This part---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.--is involving the 70th week.

Therefore, it is impossible, thus unreasonable, to interpret this verse in such a manner where it involves no gap whatsoever.

To illustrate this, let's assume this part--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is what Christ did on the cross in the middle of the 70th week.

If there are no gaps anywhere, that means this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---is entirely fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ having died on the cross. Totally preposterous that that part can fit like that. The way many interpreters try and get around this is by being dishonest with the text, that some of it, particularly that part, is meaning outside of the 70th week, not during it.

That would be like arguing that verse 25 is not pertaining to the first 69 weeks. Some of it is pertaining to events outside of the first 69 weeks. Yet no one I'm aware of, regardless what their position is, pertaining to the 70 weeks, would argue in that manner per verse 25. Why do they argue in that manner per verse 27 then? Maybe because they are being dishonest with the text, thus place their interpretation above the text, rather than actually agreeing with the text.

As to this part in question---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---there are ways to interpret that without having to take it in a literal sense. Clearly, if one is applying that part to 70 AD, not only would it be outside of the 70 weeks, it would be being taken in the literal sense per that interpretation since 70 AD involved literal events.

But if we apply that part to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 instead and what all that involves, now we are no longer obligated to take that part in a literal sense. Not unless you are a Preterist or a Pretribber. Thankfully, not all of us are either of those.

 

[Keraz]

The 69th 'week' ended with the death and resurrection of Jesus.
There is no indication of another 7 year period after that, so a gap time of nearly 2000 years, is now known to us.

Daniel 9:27 clearly divides the 70th week into 2 three and a half year periods.
Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 12:7 describe the second half, when the holy people of God will be in the power of the 'beast'.
Revelation describes that same half several times; Revelation 13:5-7, the 'beast' conquers God's holy people for 42 months and again in Revelation 11:2.
In that same period, the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth, for 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

The final seven years will commence with a treaty of peace signed between the 'beast'- who will be the leader of the One World Government and the leaders of God's holy people; all the Christians by then, living in all of the holy Land. They will have just recently experienced the dramatic defeat of a huge attacking army from the North, led by a man known as Gog.
The first half of that treaty will be peaceful and is therefore not mentioned. But at the mid point of it, the 'beast' will come to Jerusalem in force and conquer the holy people. Zechariah 14:1-2
He will sit in the Temple and declare himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

This triggers the Great Tribulation of the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls, culminating in the Battle of Armageddon and the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Revelation 17:16-18, Revelation 19:11-21

The 70th 'week' of Daniel WILL take place in the last 7 years of this Christian era.
No doubt about it! And there is no need to be concerned, as we faithful Christians do have God's promises for His protection thru it all. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:2

 

[Truth7t7]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Anyone being honest with the text is going to take this entire verse to be pertaining to the 70th week, then interpret it based on that.

IOW...

This part---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.--is involving the 70th week.

Therefore, it is impossible, thus unreasonable, to interpret this verse in such a manner where it involves no gap whatsoever.

To illustrate this, let's assume this part--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is what Christ did on the cross in the middle of the 70th week.

If there are no gaps anywhere, that means this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---is entirely fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ having died on the cross. Totally preposterous that that part can fit like that. The way many interpreters try and get around this is by being dishonest with the text, that some of it, particularly that part, is meaning outside of the 70th week, not during it.

That would be like arguing that verse 25 is not pertaining to the first 69 weeks. Some of it is pertaining to events outside of the first 69 weeks. Yet no one I'm aware of, regardless what their position is, pertaining to the 70 weeks, would argue in that manner per verse 25. Why do they argue in that manner per verse 27 then? Maybe because they are being dishonest with the text, thus place their interpretation above the text, rather than actually agreeing with the text.

As to this part in question---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---there are ways to interpret that without having to take it in a literal sense. Clearly, if one is applying that part to 70 AD, not only would it be outside of the 70 weeks, it would be being taken in the literal sense per that interpretation since 70 AD involved literal events.

But if we apply that part to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 instead and what all that involves, now we are no longer obligated to take that part in a literal sense. Not unless you are a Preterist or a Pretribber. Thankfully, not all of us are either of those.

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and (Final Judgement), as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Anyone being honest with the text is going to take this entire verse to be pertaining to the 70th week, then interpret it based on that.

IOW...

This part---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.--is involving the 70th week.

Therefore, it is impossible, thus unreasonable, to interpret this verse in such a manner where it involves no gap whatsoever.

To illustrate this, let's assume this part--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is what Christ did on the cross in the middle of the 70th week.

If there are no gaps anywhere, that means this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---is entirely fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ having died on the cross. Totally preposterous that that part can fit like that. The way many interpreters try and get around this is by being dishonest with the text, that some of it, particularly that part, is meaning outside of the 70th week, not during it.

That would be like arguing that verse 25 is not pertaining to the first 69 weeks. Some of it is pertaining to events outside of the first 69 weeks. Yet no one I'm aware of, regardless what their position is, pertaining to the 70 weeks, would argue in that manner per verse 25. Why do they argue in that manner per verse 27 then? Maybe because they are being dishonest with the text, thus place their interpretation above the text, rather than actually agreeing with the text.

As to this part in question---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---there are ways to interpret that without having to take it in a literal sense. Clearly, if one is applying that part to 70 AD, not only would it be outside of the 70 weeks, it would be being taken in the literal sense per that interpretation since 70 AD involved literal events.

But if we apply that part to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 instead and what all that involves, now we are no longer obligated to take that part in a literal sense. Not unless you are a Preterist or a Pretribber. Thankfully, not all of us are either of those.

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained "Future"

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Davidpt]

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained "Future"

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I'm sorry to have to be blunt here, but an interpretation such as this, belongs in the trash, not something even remotely worthy of considering/entertaining.

Maybe some feel the same way about the OP? But if they could only actually accept that every single thing recorded in verse 27 is something that transpires during the 70th week though, they would then have to be the most illogical reasoning persons on the planet to continue insisting there are no gaps anywhere in the 70 weeks. Keeping in mind, that is if they were to accept that verse 27, all of it, pertains to events that transpire during the 70th week, thus none of it pertains to events outside of the 70th week. A gap somewhere in the 70 weeks is the only way to make sense of the text in that case. Initially I have been thinking the gap is between the 69th and 70th week. Now I'm beginning to think it might be in the middle of the week instead.

IOW, Christ fulfills the midst of the 70th week 2000 years ago. A gap then follows, thus the remainder of the 70th week is put on hold until 2 Thessalanians 2:4 and what all that involves, starts being fulfilled, thus that being the remaining last half of the 70th week. After all, it's not like one can argue that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 does not involve abominations, keeping in mind that the last section of Daniel 9:27 pertains to abominations.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm sorry to have to be blunt here, but an interpretation such as this, belongs in the trash, not something even remotely worthy of considering/entertaining.

Maybe some feel the same way about the OP? But if they could only actually accept that every single thing recorded in verse 27 is something that transpires during the 70th week though, they would then have to be the most illogical reasoning persons on the planet to continue insisting there are no gaps anywhere in the 70 weeks. Keeping in mind, that is if they were to accept that verse 27, all of it, pertains to events that transpire during the 70th week, thus none of it pertains to events outside of the 70th week. A gap somewhere in the 70 weeks is the only way to make sense of the text in that case. Initially I have been thinking the gap is between the 69th and 70th week. Now I'm beginning to think it might be in the middle of the week instead.

IOW, Christ fulfills the midst of the 70th week 2000 years ago. A gap then follows, thus the remainder of the 70th week is put on hold until 2 Thessalanians 2:4 and what all that involves, starts being fulfilled, thus that being the remaining last half of the 70th week. After all, it's not like one can argue that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 does not involve abominations, keeping in mind that the last section of Daniel 9:27 pertains to abominations.

As was clearly shown, the 70 literal weeks are future, and will begin with a future command to build the wall and street in Jerusalem

 

[Randy Kluth]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Anyone being honest with the text is going to take this entire verse to be pertaining to the 70th week, then interpret it based on that.

What may be clear to you is not always clear to others who feel they are being equally objective. Sometimes an obvious statement in Scripture is rejected out of the desire to *want* to believe something contrary. These are matters of the heart often best left to the Lord to sort out.

IOW...
This part---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week--is involving the 70th week.
This part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is involving the 70th week.
This part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.--is involving the 70th week.

This is not clear to me, that the "overspreading of abominations" takes place *within* the 70th Week. It certainly is related to the 70th Week, but is not said to take place *within* the 70th Week.

Dan 9.27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Please note that it can be legitimately read the following way. He, ie the ruler, whose people will destroy the temple, will confirm God's promised New Covenant through Christ's death.

He will accomplish this by putting Christ to death, which will by default terminate Temple offerings and sacrifices. That is, the Roman leader at the time will indirectly effect the fulfillment of God's New Covenant when he puts Christ to death, displacing Jewish sacrifices for a better, more lasting, atonement for sin.

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness."

Here we read that Christ's death, at the hands of the Roman ruler, effects the atonement for Israel's sin. It is the confirmation of the New Covenant, intended by God to be fulfilled when Christ is "cut off."

Nothing here indicates that the Temple is destroyed in the 70th Week. Rather, what takes place in the 70th Week is the fulfillment of God's New Covenant, marking Christ as the final atonement for sin.

What follows, then, is the destruction of the Temple with its sacrifices when the people of the ruler to come destroy the city and the sanctuary. And this takes place *after* the 70th Week, ie after Christ has been put to death as an atonement for sin.

When Christ died, Temple sacrifices lost their efficacy, since Israel had shown themselves illegitimate in their worship. This brought on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple within the very generation of Jesus' apostles, but not within the 70th Week when Christ was put to death.

This is only my scenario--one that does not require the fulfillment of the "overspreading of abominations" within the 70th Week. It may be difficult from the standpoint of how you've traditionally seen it. But with some thought, you can consider how I see it differently.

 

[RedFan]

Who are you accusing of dishonesty in your OP? Can you name some of the "interpreters" you accuse of deliberate misinterpretation?

 

[Davidpt]

Who are you accusing of dishonesty in your OP? Can you name some of the "interpreters" you accuse of deliberate misinterpretation?

What I am pointing out is this. All of Daniel 9:27 involves the 70th week. None of it is meaning outside of the 70th week. One is then being dishonest with the text, whoever that might be, if they have some of verse 27 involving the 70th week but not all of it. If they were to be honest with the text instead, no way could they still be insisting there are no gaps amywhere in the 70 weeks.

Verse 27 alone proves that because if this part is meaning what Christ accomplished on the cross---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---but that all of verse 27 involves events that transpire during the 70th week, including this part--- and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,etc, but that some are insisting there are no gaps anywhere in the 70 weeks, well obviously this part can't fit within 3.5 of Christ having gone to the cross--- and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,etc. Therefore, there has to be a gap.

The way some are trying to get around that, they are not being honest with the text. They are claiming that this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,etc---is meaning after the 70 weeks have been fulfilled rather than during when it is being fulfilled. The context of verse 27 is the 70th week and not the 70th week plus outside of that week. The same for verse 25. The context is the first 69 weeks and not the first 69 weeks plus outside of those weeks.

As to verse 26, it seems rather simple to me.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


This part---And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself--fits with this part--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

And this part---and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined---fits with this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Except nothing in verse 26 is pertaining to 70 AD though that is the popular view.

 

[covenantee]

And this part---and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined---fits with this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What do you think that is describing?

 

[Davidpt]

Here is some more of my thinking pertaining to the OP.

If verse 27 can allegedly involve both the 70th week and outside of that week, the same should be true of verse 25 in a similar manner. That it involves both the first 69 weeks and outside of those weeks.

Here's verse 25 in it's entirety.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Now one needs to point out which part or parts is focusing on something outside of this first 69 weeks. Of course one can't point that out but somehow one can point something like that out in verse 27, though. And one reason why ,is because, even though that one is allowing the NT to explain some of verse 27, thus Luke 21:20 explains it, thus 70 AD explains it, that one is still not using the correct source to explain it because verse 27 involves abominations and that what happened in 70 AD didn't.

Nowhere does it mention abominations in Luke 21, but it does mention abominations in Matthew 24. Except none of that is involving what Luke 21:20 is involving, it is involving what 2 Thessalonians 2:4, for one, is involving, and that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not involving 70 AD, not even remotely.

It seems rather silly to me that there is 2 Thessalonians 2:4 to contend with, and that it is involving abominations, but it is not involving anything recorded in Daniel 9:27 because that is involving abominations that allegedly took place during 70 AD. If that is true, it should no longer be a mystery what these abominations were in 70 AD.

Yet all the ones that insist abominations took place back then can't even all agree with each other. Why not? Like I pointed out, it should no longer be a mystery at this point if it was fulfilled 2000 years ago. Thus all interpreters that insist abominations took place at the time should be in unanimous agreement with one another, not in disagreement instead. All that does is raise red flags, not prove they are correct instead. Because if they were correct, obviously they would all be in agreement with what the AOD was in 70 AD. Yet they are not. One person insists it was this. another person insists it was something else instead, so on and and so on. It then become a multiple choice answer and we then need to choose who sounds more convincing. Thus raises red flags.

 

[Davidpt]

What do you think that is describing?

I take it to be involving the following, for one.


Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?


I can't picture any of that involving 70 AD. A lot of interpreters take this to be involving A4E. But it can't mean him either since the timing involving Daniel 9:27 is meaning after Christ had already been born, and that A4E lived before Christ was born. That assuming that I am correct to connect some of Daniel 9:27 with that of what is recorded in these verses above in Daniel 8.

 

[RedFan]

What I am pointing out is this. All of Daniel 9:27 involves the 70th week. None of it is meaning outside of the 70th week. One is then being dishonest with the text, whoever that might be, if they have some of verse 27 involving the 70th week but not all of it. If they were to be honest with the text instead, no way could they still be insisting there are no gaps amywhere in the 70 weeks.

Verse 27 alone proves that because if this part is meaning what Christ accomplished on the cross---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---but that all of verse 27 involves events that transpire during the 70th week, including this part--- and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,etc, but that some are insisting there are no gaps anywhere in the 70 weeks, well obviously this part can't fit within 3.5 of Christ having gone to the cross--- and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,etc. Therefore, there has to be a gap.

The way some are trying to get around that, they are not being honest with the text. They are claiming that this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,etc---is meaning after the 70 weeks have been fulfilled rather than during when it is being fulfilled. The context of verse 27 is the 70th week and not the 70th week plus outside of that week. The same for verse 25. The context is the first 69 weeks and not the first 69 weeks plus outside of those weeks.

As to verse 26, it seems rather simple to me.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


This part---And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself--fits with this part--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

And this part---and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined---fits with this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Except nothing in verse 26 is pertaining to 70 AD though that is the popular view.

Ah. You draw no distinction between being dishonest and being mistaken. That moots my question.

 

[wooddog]

What do you think that is describing?

Satan's kingdom. For 1984 years it is been worked on, can you see it?

 

[Zao is life]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Anyone being honest with the text is going to take this entire verse to be pertaining to the 70th week, then interpret it based on that.

IOW...

This part---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.--is involving the 70th week.

Therefore, it is impossible, thus unreasonable, to interpret this verse in such a manner where it involves no gap whatsoever.

I'm not being intellectually honest when I say that if the above is the case, then there is no gap between the judgment of the Northern Kingdom of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel in 722 BC,

and the time when they have been restored to God and have been united into one nation with the Southern kingdom of Judah - because the events are written about in the same verse:

Hosea 1
4 And the LORD said to him, Call his name God Will Sow. For still in a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, and will cause the kingdom of the house of Israel to cease.

11 Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head. And they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel.

The judgment of the sons of Israel took place in the valley of Jezreel in 722 BC. That's when they "came up out of the land" (were exiled).

Were the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel gathered together at the same time?

No, they were not.

So my way of seeing especially the final verse in any prophecy, is to bear in mind how the prophets very frequently wrote, by closing or concluding the last verse of a prophecy with a repeat of the prophecy and mixing it with something unrelated to the rest of the verse.

Another example (this time it occurs at the same time as the first part of the prophecy):

17 .. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth.

And all the birds were filled from their flesh. "

Bible prophecy is literally riddled with places where the prophet concludes the last verse in the prophecy with a repeat of what was said earlier, mixing it with a prophecy about something else - and very often it does not mean that everything that is mentioned in the concluding verse would take place in the same period in time (as in Hosea 4:11).

The prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 is about the Messiah:

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.

Where's the prince of the people who would come and destroy the city and sanctuary mentioned in the above verse?

IMO here's how Daniel concludes the prophecy about the coming of the Messiah:

26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.
27 And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.

But in the same prophecy, Daniel adds more information, because the information is pertinent to the same topic:

26. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.
27. and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.

Bearing in mind how the prophets very often closed or concluded the prophecy in the last verse in the prophecy, does the destruction of the city and the temple have to occur in the same week or decade or century as the Messiah being cut off?

It's not the way the prophets wrote or spoke just because it's the way we Anglo-Saxons of 2024 speak, and hence the way we understand what the prophets wrote in a concluding verse in a prophecy.

To illustrate this, let's assume this part--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is what Christ did on the cross in the middle of the 70th week.

Yes.

If there are no gaps anywhere, that means this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---is entirely fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ having died on the cross. Totally preposterous that that part can fit like that.

The way many interpreters try and get around this is by being dishonest with the text, that some of it, particularly that part, is meaning outside of the 70th week, not during it.

IMO I'm not being intellectually dishonest David (I understand what you mean).

I'm not being dishonest because I understand how the prophets often concluded the final verse in a prophecy, mixing it with something that, though it was pertinent to the subject of the prophecy, did not necessarily have to take place at the same time as the main subject in the prophecy.

To me the only question is whether or not the people and the prince of the people who would come and destroy the city and sanctuary have already come and destroyed the city and the sanctuary. And my answer would be "Yes - 40 years later".

 

[Randy Kluth]

What I am pointing out is this. All of Daniel 9:27 involves the 70th week. None of it is meaning outside of the 70th week.

I already showed that to be untrue with respect to my view of this. The prophecy is indeed concerned with the 70th Week, which ends the period with 2 things--the cutting off of Messiah, along with the termination of offerings, and the destruction of the temple.

In his Olivet Discourse Jesus separated these two things. He said it would be later, within his same generation, that the temple would be destroyed. In other words, he would be cut off 1st, and then later, the termination of Temple offerings would be completely terminated.

None of this involves dishonesty. It is just a matter of reading the prophecy as it was fulfilled historically. The 70 Weeks culminated in the termination of Temple offerings at the death of Christ. And the prince to come, ie the Roman ruler, would later come, within the same generation, to utterly destroy the Temple itself. Where is the "dishonesty" in that?

One is then being dishonest with the text, whoever that might be, if they have some of verse 27 involving the 70th week but not all of it. If they were to be honest with the text instead, no way could they still be insisting there are no gaps amywhere in the 70 weeks.

The "prince to come," who was the Roman ruler, did not intend to fulfill biblical prophecy, but in effect that is what he did. By having Christ killed at the end of his 3.5 year ministry he in effect "confirmed God's Covenant of atonement with Israel."

He in effect put an end to Israel's offerings to God inasmuch as the God to whom they were offering these things was rejected at the cross. And the Roman ruler merely confirmed this rejection by accommodating their request to have Christ put to death.

Dan 9.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.... 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ [That is, the Roman ruler will cause God's Covenant to complete the 70 Weeks.] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. [That is, the Roman ruler will end Israel's Temple offerings by having Christ cut off.] And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on it. [That is, the Roman ruler will set up his people as an army to lay siege to Jerusalem, destroying the temple.]

 

[Douggg]

Who are you accusing of dishonesty in your OP? Can you name some of the "interpreters" you accuse of deliberate misinterpretation?

I think it is a case more of "mistaken" interpretation instead of dishonesty.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm sorry to have to be blunt here, but an interpretation such as this, belongs in the trash, not something even remotely worthy of considering/entertaining.

Maybe some feel the same way about the OP? But if they could only actually accept that every single thing recorded in verse 27 is something that transpires during the 70th week though, they would then have to be the most illogical reasoning persons on the planet to continue insisting there are no gaps anywhere in the 70 weeks. Keeping in mind, that is if they were to accept that verse 27, all of it, pertains to events that transpire during the 70th week, thus none of it pertains to events outside of the 70th week. A gap somewhere in the 70 weeks is the only way to make sense of the text in that case. Initially I have been thinking the gap is between the 69th and 70th week. Now I'm beginning to think it might be in the middle of the week instead.

IOW, Christ fulfills the midst of the 70th week 2000 years ago. A gap then follows, thus the remainder of the 70th week is put on hold until 2 Thessalanians 2:4 and what all that involves, starts being fulfilled, thus that being the remaining last half of the 70th week. After all, it's not like one can argue that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 does not involve abominations, keeping in mind that the last section of Daniel 9:27 pertains to abominations.

Personally I don't feel that the OP is trash. I just don't see why though the 70 weeks pertains only to the coming of the Messiah in verses 24-25, and neither the people of the prince who was to come and destroy the city and sanctuary, nor their prince were mentioned in verses 24-25, yet suddenly the 70 weeks has to pertain to them too just because they are mentioned in verses 26-27.

And I don't see why that should be the case because prophecy is riddled with closing verses of a prophecy where the subject mentioned earlier is mixed with an added statement that though related in some way, has nothing to do with the fulfillment of the actual event being prophesied

- and Hosea 1:11 is only one example of many other examples (aside from Daniel 9:26-27) where this is the case. In Hosea 1:11 the restoration of the house of Israel and their being rejoined to the house of Judah under one Head was not written into that verse because it would take place at the same time as the judgment of Israel in 722 BC.

 

[Timtofly]

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Anyone being honest with the text is going to take this entire verse to be pertaining to the 70th week, then interpret it based on that.

IOW...

This part---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is involving the 70th week.

This part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.--is involving the 70th week.

Therefore, it is impossible, thus unreasonable, to interpret this verse in such a manner where it involves no gap whatsoever.

To illustrate this, let's assume this part--and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease--is what Christ did on the cross in the middle of the 70th week.

If there are no gaps anywhere, that means this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---is entirely fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ having died on the cross. Totally preposterous that that part can fit like that. The way many interpreters try and get around this is by being dishonest with the text, that some of it, particularly that part, is meaning outside of the 70th week, not during it.

That would be like arguing that verse 25 is not pertaining to the first 69 weeks. Some of it is pertaining to events outside of the first 69 weeks. Yet no one I'm aware of, regardless what their position is, pertaining to the 70 weeks, would argue in that manner per verse 25. Why do they argue in that manner per verse 27 then? Maybe because they are being dishonest with the text, thus place their interpretation above the text, rather than actually agreeing with the text.

As to this part in question---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---there are ways to interpret that without having to take it in a literal sense. Clearly, if one is applying that part to 70 AD, not only would it be outside of the 70 weeks, it would be being taken in the literal sense per that interpretation since 70 AD involved literal events.

But if we apply that part to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 instead and what all that involves, now we are no longer obligated to take that part in a literal sense. Not unless you are a Preterist or a Pretribber. Thankfully, not all of us are either of those.

What does pre-trib have to do with the Cross? Was the Cross prior to the tribulation or after? Do post trib people claim the Cross happens after the tribulation?

The Cross was the middle of the 70th week. But Daniel 9:27 is not about the Cross, but the 7th Trumpet. I guess the Cross was literal, but the 7th Trumpet is not literal in your interpretation. The last half of the 70th week deals with the Prince to come. That is still future as that also happens before the tribulation just like the Cross was pre-trib. The Prince is on the earth for the last half of the 70th week, or what is left of it after it is shortened.

 

[Timtofly]

Except nothing in verse 26 is pertaining to 70 AD though that is the popular view.

The Jews destroyed their own temple out of the Civil Unrest that brought on the wrath of Rome.

The Temple was only destroyed twice. Once by Nebuchadnezzar, and once in the Conflict between the Jews and Rome. Verse 26 was written after the first time, and can only be about 70AD, because the Temple that is future will never be destroyed by human hands.