Why not Everyone will be Saved

[FaithWillDo]

Thanks Joe. What a hope we have in a thoughtful loving Creator. That He will gather all to Himself and enjoy us throughout His never ending existence.
I can't wait to be perfected and to become a fully functioning pleasure generating being unto my Creators Who said, let Us make man in Our own image.

Oh to experience completeness, when Christ is fully formed in us.

We may very well hear our Father say, These are My beloved sons and daughters in whom I am well pleased.

Glory to our Creators Who do ALL things well.

Dear 12question,
Thanks for your comments.

You said:
Oh to experience completeness, when Christ is fully formed in us.

It sounds like you are not far away.

As you inferred, this creation is for God's purpose of creating new offspring (children of God). God will complete all things just as He stated from the beginning. No one will be lost. This is the meaning of life that seems to escape most people, even people who call themselves "Christian".

Again, thanks for your post.

Joe

 

[12question]

No one will be lost.

I agree that at some stage in the eternity no one will be lost, all will be found and gathered to Father.

But in the mean time I'm excited about the stage between now and then. When those redeemed out from amoung the all....

Revelation 5:9-10 NKJV
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

...are given the (almost sovereign) role to serve God as His representative authorities as kings & priests on earth

And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

My heart is almost bursting with anticipation and the sheer excitement at the very thought. Oh, I can't finds words that could come close to expresssing what I'm feeling right now.

Oh, glory to God in the highest!!!

 

[12question]

God will complete all things just as He stated from the beginning.

I appreciate your faith. It is inspiring.

I also appreciate one of our brother's expression of faith when he said, I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I agree that at some stage in the eternity no one will be lost, all will be found and gathered to Father.

But in the mean time I'm excited about the stage between now and then. When those redeemed out from amoung the all....

Revelation 5:9-10 NKJV
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

...are given the (almost sovereign) role to serve God as His representative authorities as kings & priests on earth

And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

My heart is almost bursting with anticipation and the sheer excitement at the very thought. Oh, I can't finds words that could come close to expresssing what I'm feeling right now.

Oh, glory to God in the highest!!!

Dear 12question,
You said:
And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

The purpose for the Elect (the First Fruits of the harvest) is to reign (serve, Luke 22:24-27) with Christ in the final age and assist Him in bringing in the remaining harvest of mankind. That final age will only come to an end after the last person of mankind has been converted into a child of God - and then, and only then, will God be "all in all:

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It is always amazing to me how a person who says that they have faith in Christ, will say that Christ cannot save all mankind in light of scriptures like the one above. All mankind has died in Adam, and it is that same "all" who will be made alive in Christ. Who could that possibly leave out?

Joe

 

[12question]

Who could that possibly leave out?

None! All will repent. All will be saved from their potential ongoing never ending existence away from their Owners and Creators.

And I look forward to King Jesus setting up His kingdom on this earth and ruling from His headquarters in Jerusalem.

And the joy that fills my heart right now, just meditating on this truth by faith is amazing.

To be a king, to be a priest unto God with Jesus the Supreme King is incredible.

I've asked for this and imagined this many times. And to know that God is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, is fantastic!

The 12 disciple have been promised that they will rule as kings over the 12 tribes of Israel, their people from amoung whom they were redeemed.

Over what tribe, tongue, people, nation will you be ruling Joe?

Isn't this super exciting!!!

 

[12question]

That final age will only come to an end after the last person of mankind has been converted into a child of God - and then, and only then, will God be "all in all:

A part of me hopes you are right. The reason I hope you're right is so that no one has to experience time in the lake of fire with Satan and co.

Yet it may appear that Satan is going to be released from his holding place where he remains (1000 years) unable to deceive the people on earth. Then upon being released and unrepentant he goes out with a vengeance deceiving many of those who have been under our rulership for 1000 years and together they gather around our headquarters (Jerusalem) to destroy us. Thankfully Father steps in and deals with them.

 

[FaithWillDo]

None! All will repent. All will be saved from their potential ongoing never ending existence away from their Owners and Creators.

And I look forward to King Jesus setting up His kingdom on this earth and ruling from His headquarters in Jerusalem.

And the joy that fills my heart right now, just meditating on this truth by faith is amazing.

To be a king, to be a priest unto God with Jesus the Supreme King is incredible.

I've asked for this and imagined this many times. And to know that God is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, is fantastic!

The 12 disciple have been promised that they will rule as kings over the 12 tribes of Israel, their people from among whom they were redeemed.

Over what tribe, tongue, people, nation will you be ruling Joe?

Isn't this super exciting!!!

Dear 12question,
As I said earlier, our reign with Christ is one of service and its purpose is one of gathering in the full harvest of mankind into the Kingdom of Heaven. Our reign will not be like the reign of the kings on this earth.

The passion for my service comes from my love for the lost which Christ gave to me. I have this love now for the fallen away believers in the apostate church. My love for them is manifested in the time I spend teaching the truth of Christ to them.

For the "few" apostate believers who have been chosen and have been made ready (Latter Rain and spiritual blindness healed), my efforts are rewarded. However, for most, my teachings fall on deaf ears and leaves my belly "bitter" (Rev 10:10).

The below scripture explains the work I do for the Lord:

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one turns him back; 20 Let him know, that he which turns a sinner (apostate believer) from the error of his way shall save their soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Do you understand why James mentions Elijah in this scripture and why he mentions Elijah's 3 1/2 years drought? Understanding this reason is vital in understanding the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel to their conversion/salvation.

The 3 1/2 years of drought begins for a new believer immediately after they have received the Early Rain of the Spirit. It ends for them when Christ "comes again" and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the Spirit of Truth). The time in between the two rains of the Spirit is called a time of "great tribulation" when the temple of God (the new believer) becomes desolate (A of D). This is the time when the believer becomes apostate by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. This type of believer is what makes the churches of the world "apostate". And as God's Word says, no one is spared from experiencing this "Day of Evil" when Satan governs them from "within". Only the second coming of Christ with the Latter Rain of the Spirit can turn a sinner from the error of their ways. For this reason, Christ will send a converted believer to the sinner with the call of repentance from works. They will come to the sinner in the spirit of Elijah. This is the work that the Lord has given me to do. Then, if the sinner is one of the Elect, Christ will cause them to repent of their works. Their repentance will make Christ's pathway "straight" for Him to return to them and pour out the Holy Spirit upon them. With the Latter Rain, the believer will be restored and "born again". They will then reign with Christ over their own judgment (Rev 19). After their judgment is complete, the Elect believer will be converted.

In the final age, the Elect believer will ride again with Christ when He judges the rest of mankind. When this judgment is finished, all mankind will be "born again" and converted.

Christ mentions this time of judgment below and how He will judge the "lost":

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

When Christ and His Bride (the Elect) judge the "lost" in the final age, Christ will not omit justice, mercy and faith from their judgment. Before the "lost" perish (the true penalty of sin) in the Lake of Fire, Christ will have mercy upon them and will pour out the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain of the Spirit is what will give them "faith". With this faith, Christ will come a second time to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Spirit, they will be "born again" as a child of God and will then be gathered up to heaven. The child of the Devil (who they used to be) will remain in the Lake of Fire until he is destroyed. This will satisfy justice.

The verses below apply to the salvation of the "lost" in the final age:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes (represent the Elect) will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

Because judgment is a necessary component of mankind's salvation, Christ longed to start that process of judgment:

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

In case you are not aware, "fire" is a spirit word (John 6:63) which represents judgment. It is not literal fire.

In the end, 1Cor 15:20-28 will be completed and all mankind will be saved.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

A part of me hopes you are right. The reason I hope you're right is so that no one has to experience time in the lake of fire with Satan and co.

Yet it may appear that Satan is going to be released from his holding place where he remains (1000 years) unable to deceive the people on earth. Then upon being released and unrepentant he goes out with a vengeance deceiving many of those who have been under our rulership for 1000 years and together they gather around our headquarters (Jerusalem) to destroy us. Thankfully Father steps in and deals with them.

Dear 12question,
Even Satan and the fallen angels will someday experience the judgment of Christ.

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword (represents God's Word) shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

And like mankind who will also be slayed by the sword of Christ, Satan will be saved and converted, too.

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (God's Word) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind): and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Then these scriptures will be proven true:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth (mankind), or things in heaven (fallen angels).

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Joe

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

From Genesis 12:3 we know that only those who have embedded themselves in God's fertile soil will be blessed by Abraham's descendants in the distant future.

Those who have chosen to not send their roots down into God's fertile soils to draw their nourishment from God's words will not be blessed and as such they will not be judged to be righteous, and the second death will become their future.

Shalom

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hello

From Genesis 12:3 we know that only those who have embedded themselves in God's fertile soil will be blessed by Abraham's descendants in the distant future.

Those who have chosen to not send their roots down into God's fertile soils to draw their nourishment from God's words will not be blessed and as such they will not be judged to be righteous, and the second death will become their future.

Shalom

Dear Jay Ross,
Your understanding of how a person is saved is based upon the false belief that mankind has a free will ability to choose or reject Christ. This understanding comes from Satan's false gospel which mixes "works" (Old Covenant) with faith in Christ (New Covenant). When a believer does this mixing, they are trying to serve two masters.

God's Word says that the only way a person can make a decision for Christ is for Christ to come to that person (without their asking or permission) and give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain of the Spirit, the person will have a measure of faith and will call Jesus "Lord".

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Without the Spirit, no one would ever accept Jesus as their Lord:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man has no ability or desire to ever accept Jesus as their Lord. The natural man is just too carnally minded. Because all mankind is in this utterly lost spiritual condition, Christ will come to a person at a time of His choosing and freely give them the Holy Spirit. This is the ONLY WAY a person can be saved. It happens to them not because of their own "works" but because of the "works" of Christ. And Christ gives them the free gift of salvation because of His grace and not because of anything the person has ever done or said.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

If Christ wanted to save every person who is living today, He could easily do it by giving everyone the free gift of the Holy Spirit. With that gift, no one would reject Christ. However, doing it this way is not in accordance with the plan that God established from the foundation of the world to save mankind. Under that plan, Christ is only saving the Elect in this age. They are the first fruits of His harvest. The main harvest of mankind will not occur until the final age. Only then will these scriptures be proven to be true:

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

The false gospel you teach mixes man's works with faith. It is nothing more than filthy rags and will never be able to clothe a person in the righteousness of Christ.

Joe

 

[Jay Ross]

Dear Jay Ross,
Your understanding of how a person is saved is based upon the false belief that mankind has a free will ability to choose or reject Christ. This understanding comes from Satan's false gospel which mixes "works" (Old Covenant) with faith in Christ (New Covenant). When a believer does this mixing, they are trying to serve two masters.

Dear Joe,

In my post I was not addressing the methodology of how a person is saved or how it comes about. Rather I was quoting Scripture, i.e., Genesis 12:3, re how Israel will bless all the peoples of the earth that inhabit His/God's fertile soil/field. I was addressing the topic of this thread, "Why not Everyone will be Saved?"

Those that are judged to be righteous will be saved while those who are judged to be unrighteous will go into the lake of fire.

If this is not true, then the Gospel that you are preaching leaves a lot to be desired and is not the Gospel that Christ Brought.

Shalom

 

[FaithWillDo]

Dear Joe,

In my post I was not addressing the methodology of how a person is saved or how it comes about. Rather I was quoting Scripture, i.e., Genesis 12:3, re how Israel will bless all the peoples of the earth that inhabit His/God's fertile soil/field. I was addressing the topic of this thread, "Why not Everyone will be Saved?"

Those that are judged to be righteous will be saved while those who are judged to be unrighteous will go into the lake of fire.

If this is not true, then the Gospel that you are preaching leaves a lot to be desired and is not the Gospel that Christ Brought.

Shalom

Dear Jay Ross,
Whether you realize it or not, you were addressing how a person receives salvation.

My response was based on the underlined portions of your comments below:

From Genesis 12:3 we know that only those who have embedded themselves in God's fertile soil...

Those who have chosen to not send their roots down into God's fertile soils to draw their nourishment from God's words will not be blessed and as such they will not be judged to be righteous, and the second death will become their future.

Mankind does not "choose" Christ nor can anyone embed themselves into God's fertile soil. Christ is the farmer and He does the planting, tending and harvesting of His crop of mankind - and He even does the watering:

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the latter and former (Early) RAIN unto the earth.

Our salvation is 100% the work of the Lord so that no man can boast (Eph 2:9).

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

1Cor 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and CHOSEN, and faithful.

If mankind did have to choose Christ to be saved, then salvation would require a "work" (confession of faith) from mankind. But scripture says differently.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

A person's confession of faith comes from Christ after He freely gives them the Spirit. With the Spirit, they will only confess Jesus as Lord - they have no choice in the matter because Christ made that choice for them.

Since you use Gen 12:3 to support your statements, here is that scripture:

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The chosen Elect are the ones who will bless Abraham, and in return, they will be blessed by being harvested early (first fruits of the harvest). They will become spiritual Jews and heirs of Abraham (family of Abraham).

Those who curse Abraham will not be blessed but will be cursed. They will be the ones who are cast into the Lake of Fire for judgment. But from that judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and bless them before they perish (the penalty of sin). Christ blesses them by giving them the Early Rain of the Spirit - which will give them faith. With that faith, the pathway for Christ to come to them a second time will be made "straight". When Christ comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, the person will be ripe for the harvest and will then be gathered into the Kingdom of Heaven (the barn). In this way, all the families will be blessed.

These verses apply:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he (the chosen Elect) shall receive a reward (heir to the promises). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (judgment in the Lake of Fire).

By quoting Gen 12:3, you are actually saying that you believe all mankind (all families of the earth) will be saved. Is that what you believe or are you just not understanding the verse?

Joe

 

[Jay Ross]

By quoting Gen 12:3, you are actually saying that you believe all mankind (all families of the earth) will be saved. Is that what you believe or are you just not understanding the verse?

No, but that is what you are saying when you posted this in your rebuttal: -

Those who curse Abraham will not be blessed but will be cursed. They will be the ones who are cast into the Lake of Fire for judgment. But from that judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and bless them before they perish (the penalty of sin). Christ blesses them by giving them the Early Rain of the Spirit - which will give them faith. With that faith, the pathway for Christ to come to them a second time will be made "straight". When Christ comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, the person will be ripe for the harvest and will then be gathered into the Kingdom of Heaven (the barn). In this way, all the families will be blessed.

Now with regards to Genesis 12:3, in the translation that you quoted,

Gen 12:3: - And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The translation of H:0127, where the Root Hebrew word has the meaning of "soil" (From 'adam; soil (from its general redness) -and translated in this manner in the OT - country, earth, ground, husband(-man) (-ry), land.) as "the earth" is misleading as it suggests that all the peoples of the earth are saved.

It seems to me that you are presenting UR theology.

In Ezekiel 18 the prophet tells us that even if a righteous man "sins" that he will die the second unless he repents. That is the requirement for all of mankind, which according to your definition seems to be a work of man and therefore not acceptable to God.

In this chapter it also tells us that if a wicked man repents and turns to keep God's laws and statutes, that he will live instead of dying the second death in the distant future.

If I say that God will save me, but do not turn to send my roots down into God's fertile soil, then I am not communing with God and allowing Him to refine me into the personhood that He had intended me to be since the beginning of time.

You, sir, have a very superficial understanding of God's salvation plan.

This is what is recorded of God's words to Cain when his countenance fell when God favoured Ables offering more than he favoured Cains.

Gen 4:6-7: - 6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

I will let you argue with God to convince Him that your understanding of His salvation plan is actually God's Plan.

Goodbye

 

[FaithWillDo]

No, but that is what you are saying when you posted this in your rebuttal: -



You, sir, have a very superficial understanding of God's salvation plan.

Dear Jay Ross,
What I have presented is the Gospel of Christ which is based solely on faith and the works of Christ. What you have been presenting is Satan's "another gospel" which mixes the works of man with faith.

Your understanding of God's Word is filtered through your "works" based belief system (your paradigm) which comes from your carnal nature. All mankind has this "works" based belief system until they receive BOTH the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit and have been converted.

For that reason, Christ said that new believers who have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit will still prefer the Old Wine:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The Old Wine represents the Old Covenant which is based upon the works of man. This works based covenant is "religion". Religion is how carnal mankind tries to approach God to make themselves acceptable. Adam and Eve did it in the Garden of Eden when they tried to cover their nakedness (sin) with an apron of fig leaves. Because Adam and Eve tried to make themselves acceptable by their own works, Christ cast them out of the Garden and their marriage relationship with Christ ended.

After Christ gives a unbeliever the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will have a "measure of faith" and will enter the church. However, the Early Rain of the Spirit is only given in a small measure and will leave the new believer carnally minded and spiritually blind.

These scriptures apply:

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished (void of truth). 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits (spirit of anti-Christ) more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mark 8:21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand? 22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town (called out from the world); and when he had spit on his eyes (Early Rain of the Spirit), and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking (spiritually blind and can only see carnally as "Christ and Him crucified"). 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes (Latter Rain of the Spirit), and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly (spiritual blindness healed).

Paul's conversion experience also teaches the same truths on spiritual blindness. Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit on the Damascus Road. That was when Paul first called Jesus "Lord". However, Paul could not see Christ and had to ask who the voice speaking to him was. Paul then become physically blind to represent his spiritual blindness. After spending three days in Damascus, Christ came a second time to Paul (typed by Ananias) and poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The scales then fell off Paul's eyes and Paul was told to eat "meat" (truth).

After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit and enters the church, Satan will come to them and plant his seed of the spirit of anti-Christ within them (Parable of the Wheat and the Tares & Mat 12:43-45). This will cause the Abomination of Desolation within the new believer (God's temple). Satan will then deceive the spiritually blind & carnally minded believer into following his "another gospel" (religion) because it tastes better than the New Wine. When the believer drinks the Old Wine, they commit the sin that leads to death just as Adam and Eve did. This will cause the believer to fall from grace and lose their salvation.

It is these fallen away believers who make up the apostate churches of the world. Though there are many denominations/sects within the apostate church, the one belief they all have in common is that they follow Satan's false gospel which mixes works with faith.

If a fallen away believer is also chosen from the foundation of the world, Christ will come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, Christ will heal the chosen person's spiritual blindness and they will be restored to Christ. Judgment will then immediately follow and remove & destroy the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (worsened carnal nature) from within the chosen believer. With their carnality destroyed, the chosen believer will then start walking by faith and will worship God in Spirit and in truth.

These verses apply to the chosen believer's judgment:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation (spiritual blindness healed), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand. 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains (judgment/typed by Lot).

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came (judgment), and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two (one flesh) be in the field (works); the one (man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ) shall be taken, and the other left (child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (works/making leavened bread, Mat 13:33); the one (Great Harlot) shall be taken, and the other left (new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit).

After their judgment is complete, the chosen believer will be converted and saved.

Mankind's salvation happens because of the physical work of Christ that He did in the flesh (the cross) and by His spiritual work that He is presently doing under the New Covenant. Salvation requires no works from mankind. It is a free gift and is given to mankind because of the grace of God. This is the true Gospel of Christ.

If you don't wish to continue our discussion, this will be my last post to you on this thread.

Joe

 

[Jay Ross]

If you don't wish to continue our discussion, this will be my last post to you on this thread.

Joe,

Since you have judged me to be a sinner, I give thanks that you recognise that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory f God.

Since this thread is all about Why everybody will not be saved, I will stick with my previous comments. God does draw us to Himself, but it is our choice if we want to be in relationship with God.

If we take root in God's fertile soil, then He will nourish us and as long as we do not turn away from God's love towards us, then at the final judgement our righteousness will be judged. If we are found in the Book of Life, then we will enter into our promised heritage and possession.

So yes, it will be goodbye from this side of the conversation as I find that your accusations are based on a few lines of text. You have told me that I preach a different gospel to you, and I agree with you as you do not preach the Gospel as recorded in the Scriptures but your own understanding. You have chosen what you believe in and disbelieve what you chose too, such that the only person believe in, is yourself.

That is not who I am. I believe in God and accept His counsel. Your counsel does not comes from the God that I worship.

Goodbye

 

[12question]

Our reign will not be like the reign of the kings on this earth.

King Jesus promised His 12 disciples that they will rule for 1000 years over the 12 tribes of Israel, their people from amoung whom they were redeemed.

Over what tribe, tongue, people, nation will you be ruling with King Jesus for that 1000 years, Joe?

 

[Hobie]

I agree that at some stage in the eternity no one will be lost, all will be found and gathered to Father.

But in the mean time I'm excited about the stage between now and then. When those redeemed out from amoung the all....

Revelation 5:9-10 NKJV
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

...are given the (almost sovereign) role to serve God as His representative authorities as kings & priests on earth

And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

My heart is almost bursting with anticipation and the sheer excitement at the very thought. Oh, I can't finds words that could come close to expresssing what I'm feeling right now.

Oh, glory to God in the highest!!!

How do you read these texts..

Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[FaithWillDo]

King Jesus promised His 12 disciples that they will rule for 1000 years over the 12 tribes of Israel, their people from amoung whom they were redeemed.

Over what tribe, tongue, people, nation will you be ruling with King Jesus for that 1000 years, Joe?

Dear 12question,
Here is what the spiritual symbol "1000 years" represents:

2Pet 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

In 2nd Peter chapter 3, Peter is teaching about Christ's judgment and how that judgment compares to the spiritual symbol "thousand years". And as you will see later, John in Revelation chapter 20 is teaching about the same subject.

When Peter compares a thousand years to a day, the “day” Peter is referring to is the Day of the Lord. Both the “Thousand Years” and the “Day of the Lord” are spiritual symbols which represent Christ’s judgment. They do not represent any specific amount of literal time - that is a carnal understanding of the symbols.

2Pet 3:10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

When Christ’s judgment arrives, it comes as a thief in the night and will destroy the “heavens” and the “earth” of the believer. The earth represents mankind’s spiritual nature (heart). The heavens represent mankind’s mind. In the verse above, Peter is speaking about mankind’s carnal spiritual nature and carnal mind. These are the Old Heavens and the Old Earth.

When Christ comes a "second time" to a believer and gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit, it will immediately be followed by the arrival of the Day of the Lord/Thousand Years. Christ's judgment will destroy the Old Heaven and the Old Earth. Once they are completely destroyed, the Elect believer will be governed by a New Heaven and a New Earth which will come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early (referring to the Elect/First Fruits): for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

This verse below applies to what Peter stated about the Thousand Years:

Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. 4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. 5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

Though the above verse is clouded in spiritual language, it is also teaching that the Day of the Lord is like a Thousand Years.

This verse also applies:

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a Thousand Years TWICE TOLD, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

The above verse is speaking of the Elect who will reign with Christ in judgment “twice told”. The first time they reign with Christ is over their own judgment (presented in Rev 19:11-14). The second time they reign with Christ is in the final age when the lost are judged (Joel 2:1-11). During both judgments, the Elect do not see any good and all who are judged (mankind, children of the devil) will go to “one place” (Lake of Fire, destruction).

Revelation chapter 20 is a continuation of chapter 19 and the thousand years taught there carries the same meaning as Peter taught.

When judgment comes to an Elect believer, Satan will be bound during that time of judgment (a thousand years) and not allowed to tempt the believer until they are converted. This time of judgment for the Elect believer is called the Day of the Lord. But since the believer is "born again" prior to their judgment occurring, they do not experience wrath. Instead, they will reign with Christ over their own judgment (as shown in Rev 19:11-14) as a newly born child of God (a Bride).

This time of judgment for an Elect believer is also called the "1000 years" reign. After the chosen believer's judgment is complete, Satan will be loosed for a "little season" (shown in detail in Rev 20:7-10) to test the newly converted believer. This time of testing for a believer was "typed" by Christ when Satan came to Christ at the end of His 40 days of fasting. And like Christ, the converted believer will not fall for Satan's deceptions.

Also, the spiritual term "First Resurrection" represents the complete spiritual process of conversion. It is not the bodily resurrection from the grave. It is the spiritual resurrection.

The full process of the First Resurrection (conversion) is taught in the previous chapter (Rev 19:7-21) using the marriage analogy. It consists of the birth of the child of God (Marriage of the Lamb) and their learning truth directly from Christ (Marriage Supper of the Lamb). After the believer has received sufficient knowledge, judgment will fall on the believer and remove their "chaff". After the believer is converted, they will have eternal salvation and will walk by faith.

As for your question on who I believe I will be reigning over (serving) in the final age, I won't speculate because God's Word tells us "not to go beyond what is written":

1Cor 4:6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

How do you read these texts..

Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Dear Hobie,
The "right hand" is a spiritual symbol for "works".

Exo 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

If a believer is following a gospel which mixes their own works with the works of Christ, they should cut off their right hand (their own works) and trust solely in the works of Christ. This is true faith.

Christ is not saying that a person should literally cut off their own hand to avoid going to hell. I hope that is not what you are teaching others.

As for Luke 13:3:

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Since Christ is not willing that anyone perish, He will see to it that all mankind repents:

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Since Christ is mankind's God, just who or what is going to stop Christ from accomplishing His "will"?

But since you believe that mankind's salvation is up to the individual and their own work of repentance and confession of faith, you don't believe that Christ's "will" of saving all mankind can be accomplished. However, God's Word says differently:

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Since Christ is not willing that any should perish, Christ will make sure that all mankind repents before they perish from the penalty of sin. It is for that very reason the Father sent Christ into the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

With the beliefs that you hold dear, you have elevated mankind's "will" to be too strong for Christ to overcome. Don't you know that Christ is in the business of changing hearts and minds? That is the spiritual work that Christ is doing under the New Covenant. And since Christ has the desire and the power to overcome mankind's "will", He will most certainly see to it that everyone repents before they perish:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Because Christ loves all mankind, He will not stopping working until the last person of mankind has repented and has been saved. Only then will it be testified to be true that Christ is the Savior of mankind:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

 

[12question]

How do you read these texts..

Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

What exactly are you asking?

Dear 12question,
Here is what the spiritual symbol "1000 years" represents:

2Pet 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

In 2nd Peter chapter 3, Peter is teaching about Christ's judgment and how that judgment compares to the spiritual symbol "thousand years". And as you will see later, John in Revelation chapter 20 is teaching about the same subject.

When Peter compares a thousand years to a day, the “day” Peter is referring to is the Day of the Lord. Both the “Thousand Years” and the “Day of the Lord” are spiritual symbols which represent Christ’s judgment. They do not represent any specific amount of literal time - that is a carnal understanding of the symbols.

2Pet 3:10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

When Christ’s judgment arrives, it comes as a thief in the night and will destroy the “heavens” and the “earth” of the believer. The earth represents mankind’s spiritual nature (heart). The heavens represent mankind’s mind. In the verse above, Peter is speaking about mankind’s carnal spiritual nature and carnal mind. These are the Old Heavens and the Old Earth.

When Christ comes a "second time" to a believer and gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit, it will immediately be followed by the arrival of the Day of the Lord/Thousand Years. Christ's judgment will destroy the Old Heaven and the Old Earth. Once they are completely destroyed, the Elect believer will be governed by a New Heaven and a New Earth which will come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early (referring to the Elect/First Fruits): for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

This verse below applies to what Peter stated about the Thousand Years:

Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. 4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. 5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

Though the above verse is clouded in spiritual language, it is also teaching that the Day of the Lord is like a Thousand Years.

This verse also applies:

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a Thousand Years TWICE TOLD, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

The above verse is speaking of the Elect who will reign with Christ in judgment “twice told”. The first time they reign with Christ is over their own judgment (presented in Rev 19:11-14). The second time they reign with Christ is in the final age when the lost are judged (Joel 2:1-11). During both judgments, the Elect do not see any good and all who are judged (mankind, children of the devil) will go to “one place” (Lake of Fire, destruction).

Revelation chapter 20 is a continuation of chapter 19 and the thousand years taught there carries the same meaning as Peter taught.

When judgment comes to an Elect believer, Satan will be bound during that time of judgment (a thousand years) and not allowed to tempt the believer until they are converted. This time of judgment for the Elect believer is called the Day of the Lord. But since the believer is "born again" prior to their judgment occurring, they do not experience wrath. Instead, they will reign with Christ over their own judgment (as shown in Rev 19:11-14) as a newly born child of God (a Bride).

This time of judgment for an Elect believer is also called the "1000 years" reign. After the chosen believer's judgment is complete, Satan will be loosed for a "little season" (shown in detail in Rev 20:7-10) to test the newly converted believer. This time of testing for a believer was "typed" by Christ when Satan came to Christ at the end of His 40 days of fasting. And like Christ, the converted believer will not fall for Satan's deceptions.

Also, the spiritual term "First Resurrection" represents the complete spiritual process of conversion. It is not the bodily resurrection from the grave. It is the spiritual resurrection.

The full process of the First Resurrection (conversion) is taught in the previous chapter (Rev 19:7-21) using the marriage analogy. It consists of the birth of the child of God (Marriage of the Lamb) and their learning truth directly from Christ (Marriage Supper of the Lamb). After the believer has received sufficient knowledge, judgment will fall on the believer and remove their "chaff". After the believer is converted, they will have eternal salvation and will walk by faith.

As for your question on who I believe I will be reigning over (serving) in the final age, I won't speculate because God's Word tells us "not to go beyond what is written":

1Cor 4:6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

Joe

Thanks for responding Joe. I love the fresh revelation Father has been giving me since I stopped consulting the bible. These revelations have transformed my thinking and has been impacting the way I live my life. Highly recommend hearing directly from the Spirit of Christ without the bible.
It might be a too big of a task to take on for some.