WWJD with LGBTQ?

[Lizbeth]

Let's try this.
A monogamous, legally married, homosexual couple comes to the Lord.
Should they divorce, or remain in the relationship?
Would you allow them fellowship in your church? Leadership? Ministry?

1 Corinthians 7:21-24 NIV
Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—
although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person;
similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.
24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God,
should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

/

They are not even married in God's eyes. Man's laws certainly do not always agree with God's laws. As the scriptures say....count the cost of following Him. What does scripture say.....that is what some of you WERE. Not still are, but WERE.

Oh my goodness, the liberties you want to take with the word of God. We were all sinners when we were called.....should we all stay in our sins then? Of course not, that isn't what that scrip is talking about at all Wow, wow....so this is the kind of thing you are teaching folks? You are going to have a lot to account for.......and it's likewise very sad for those souls who believe you.

 

[Lizbeth]

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Too bad that wasn't sufficient. Right?

/

Why are you asking me? It isn't my word, but God's.....you are arguing against HIM.

 

[St. SteVen]

They are not even married in God's eyes. Man's laws certainly do not always agree with God's laws. As the scriptures say....count the cost of following Him. What does scripture say.....that is what some of you WERE. Not still are, but WERE.

Same for a divorced and remarried heterosexual couple coming to the Lord?
Been married for 20 years, with two additional children. You would Bible-bash them into a second divorce?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Did Jesus die to save us from God?
Too bad that wasn't sufficient. Right?

Why are you asking me? It isn't my word, but God's.....you are arguing against HIM.

So, you DO actually believe that Jesus died to save us from God? -- ???

Wow.

/

 

[The Learner]

 

[Jethro2]

When someone, anyone, brings a false gospel, (a false teaching as well),

arguing / debating/ trying to have a conversation/

does not work. Who recently noted the blind leading the blind.

Carrying on thread after thread supporting the lies of the enemy opposed to Jesus

has no benefit , unless God sees fit to open someone's eyes, to free them from the lies or to protect them from the lies ahead of time, so that they are not facing God's Wrath when God Executes His Vengeance on the ones with hearts full of perverseness daily. Their posts are also.
God will not withhold His Perfect Justice Forever - if they repent, they may be spared.

Or as Jesus Says Himself "Unless you all (sinners) repent, you will all likewise perish".

 

[Aunty Jane]

A monogamous, legally married, homosexual couple comes to the Lord.
Should they divorce, or remain in the relationship?
Would you allow them fellowship in your church? Leadership? Ministry?

If they were Chist’s true disciples, then no one would have to require them to do anything…they would require it of themselves. Knowing God’s laws, they would willingly separate and begin a new life as single people, eager to please their God and to abide by the rules laid down in his word.

As @Lizbeth has mentioned….they are not married in the eyes of God anyway.
Man’s laws do not trump God’s laws. Who would rightly expect God to change his laws to suit what sinful humans want? It’s humans who have to change to suit what God wants.…..sometimes that is a difficult thing to do…..but love for God can lead a person to sacrifice much, knowing that a rich rewards awaits them. (Heb 11:1)

No sacrifice made will ever be a waste of effort…..yet you seem to believe that isn’t fair of God to demand that his children obey him…..it was disobedience that got us into this mess in the first place….continuing disobedience just makes everything worse….and it makes God weak if he does not enforce his own laws.
Is his justice somehow imperfect?

 

[TheHC]

1 Corinthians 7:21-24 NIV
Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—
although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person;
similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.
24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God,
should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

What do you think this means? “Remain” in what situation?

Please read 1 Corinthians 6:9,10…. its all lumped together as unrighteous acts.

Can a person wanting to please God “remain” a drunkard?
Can a person live as an adulterer and still have God’s approval?

What the Bible really is discussing here, is living or practicing these things.

It’s late, goodnight.

 

[Lizbeth]

St. SteVen said:
Did Jesus die to save us from God?
Too bad that wasn't sufficient. Right?

So, you DO actually believe that Jesus died to save us from God? -- ???

Wow.

/

Yes indeed......to save us from His wrath......to save us from perishing.......to save us from the wages of sin.....that we may be hid in Christ from His consuming fire. He is a great King....how do Kings treat their enemies as opposed to their friends? Except this King has provided the way that we may be His friends and escape His wrath.

Matthew 22

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Luke 14

31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
A monogamous, legally married, homosexual couple comes to the Lord.
Should they divorce, or remain in the relationship?
Would you allow them fellowship in your church? Leadership? Ministry?

If they were Chist’s true disciples, then no one would have to require them to do anything…they would require it of themselves. Knowing God’s laws, they would willingly separate and begin a new life as single people, eager to please their God and to abide by the rules laid down in his word.

God’s laws?
Do you mean the Law of Moses that we are not under?

The question that needs to be addressed:
Is the biblical prohibition against same sex relationships
in reference to uncommitted relationships (promiscuity, like adultery/fornication),
or does it include monogamous (committed) relationships?

A secondary question would be about adultery/fornication.
Sometimes idolatry is labeled as adultery in the Bible.
Is it the act of idol worship, or the unfaithfulness to God, that is the issue?
Spiritual monogamy compared to spiritual promiscuity.

As @Lizbeth has mentioned….they are not married in the eyes of God anyway.

Well, in my example, they are legally married. I didn't specify for how long.

For the sake of discussion, I imagined them as having been together for over a decade.
Life had brought them together. They were soul mates. Fully committed to each other.

Now, you are proposing that this couple having at this point found the Lord,
should abandon each other? That they should seek a legal divorce. (since the are legally married)
Break up their family, if they had children together. (through adoption)
How do we suppose the children would feel about this?

Same for a divorced and remarried heterosexual couple coming to the Lord?
Been married for 20 years, with two additional children. You would Bible-bash them into a second divorce?
I have never heard of a church requiring this. Pretty sure I have heard advice that they should stay together.
Homosexuality would throw a wrench in that?

This whole thing appears to be a spiritual/emotional/social train wreck to me.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

Same for a divorced and remarried heterosexual couple coming to the Lord?
Been married for 20 years, with two additional children. You would Bible-bash them into a second divorce?

/

They are not equivalent situations, sorry. Apples and oranges.

I don't believe in bible-bashing, but speaking the truth in love. And as Jane wisely and rightly said, they would require it of themselves. Though I personally think some might need a little time to sort themselves out after coming to faith, be instructed in the word, and time to make practical arrangements etc, and I believe the Lord's grace would extend that far.

But not everyone who names the name of Christ is truly born again. By their fruits we will know them. Wresting the word of God to justify remaining in sin isn't good fruit. Jesus said we need to AGREE with our Adversary along the way...before He hands us over to the Judge. If we acknowledge and confess our sins as sin, He will be faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we would judge ourselves we will not be judged with the world. The idea of REPENTANCE seems to be a best kept secret in some segments of Christendom, yet it is essential to being freed from sin and bondage. Seek righteousness and humility and it may be that we will be hid on the day of the Lord's anger.

I thought this was about how the church should treat those who are still lost and those who are coming to Christ, what our attitude should be. Now it's clear you don't even consider sexual perversions to be sinful, so there is just no basis for discussion here. There is room for compassion and mercy...... when we acknowledge our sin as sin and we're willing to do battle with it. If anyone can't agree with the word of God and recognize and acknowledge their sin as sin they must still be lost and under wrath. If you are born again you receive LIGHT to see by, because you have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness and blindness into the kingdom of light and illumination.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
1 Corinthians 7:21-24 NIV
Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—
although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person;
similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.
24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God,
should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

What do you think this means? “Remain” in what situation?

Please read 1 Corinthians 6:9,10…. its all lumped together as unrighteous acts.

Can a person wanting to please God “remain” a drunkard?
Can a person live as an adulterer and still have God’s approval?

What the Bible really is discussing here, is living or practicing these things.

It’s late, goodnight.

That's a good question, thanks.
No, I don't see being "a drunkard" or "an adulterer" as a "situation they were in" that should continue.
And a homosexual LIFESTYLE of illicit uncommitted promiscuity would be the same.
Not a situation that should continue.

If the homosexual relationship is monogamous, that requires some additional thought.

The question that needs to be addressed:
Is the biblical prohibition against same sex relationships
in reference to uncommitted relationships (promiscuity, like adultery/fornication),
or does it include monogamous (committed) relationships?

Same for a divorced and remarried heterosexual couple coming to the Lord?
Been married for 20 years, with two additional children. Should we Bible-bash them into a second divorce?
I have never heard of a church requiring this. Pretty sure I have heard advice that they should stay together.
Homosexuality would throw a wrench in that?

/

 

[Lizbeth]

St. SteVen said:
A monogamous, legally married, homosexual couple comes to the Lord.
Should they divorce, or remain in the relationship?
Would you allow them fellowship in your church? Leadership? Ministry?

God’s laws?
Do you mean the Law of Moses that we are not under?

The question that needs to be addressed:
Is the biblical prohibition against same sex relationships
in reference to uncommitted relationships (promiscuity, like adultery/fornication),
or does it include monogamous (committed) relationships?

A secondary question would be about adultery/fornication.
Sometimes idolatry is labeled as adultery in the Bible.
Is it the act of idol worship, or the unfaithfulness to God, that is the issue?
Spiritual monogamy compared to spiritual promiscuity.


Well, in my example, they are legally married. I didn't specify for how long.

For the sake of discussion, I imagined them as having been together for over a decade.
Life had brought them together. They were soul mates. Fully committed to each other.

Now, you are proposing that this couple having at this point found the Lord,
should abandon each other? That they should seek a legal divorce. (since the are legally married)
Break up their family, if they had children together. (through adoption)
How do we suppose the children would feel about this?

Same for a divorced and remarried heterosexual couple coming to the Lord?
Been married for 20 years, with two additional children. You would Bible-bash them into a second divorce?
I have never heard of a church requiring this. Pretty sure I have heard advice that they should stay together.
Homosexuality would throw a wrench in that?

This whole thing appears to be a spiritual/emotional/social train wreck to me.

/

No longer under the Law of Moses, yes.....and that means our righteousness must EXCEED that of those under the Law, not be less than theirs. Never mind committing adultery but if we even look after someone to lust after them..... The bar is set higher for we who are in Christ, not lower.

But what's the use of discussing scripture with those who don't love the truth but are seeking only to justify the sins that they love more.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Did Jesus die to save us from God?
Too bad that wasn't sufficient. Right?
So, you DO actually believe that Jesus died to save us from God? -- ???

Yes indeed......to save us from His wrath......to save us from perishing.......to save us from the wages of sin.....that we may be hid in Christ from His consuming fire. He is a great King....how do Kings treat their enemies as opposed to their friends? Except this King has provided the way that we may be His friends and escape His wrath.

Wow.
The answer to that question should be so obvious. No! Jesus did NOT die to save us from God.
That's preposterous. Because...

It means that God created a situation whereby humankind would need to be rescued from himself.
What's wrong with this picture?



/

 

[Lizbeth]

The OT record we have has been written by folk with a particular view of how God operates (his character)....and they act accordingly.....often barbarically.

Jesus also has a view of God's character, in fact Jesus being the Creator who is the only eyewitness of God and the communicator with the Prophets now bends backwards to reveal what God is like, revealing what they thought God was like is a long way from what he actually is like.
None of the OT writers had the view that God's nature is self sacrificing and love is manifest by vulnerability. They thought God was a sword wielding Demagogue who had his favourites which they considered they were.

The question is, who is it we are going to hear? Who were the disciples instructed to hear? The voice from the cloud on the Mountain said to listen to the Son. They had Moses and Elijah for centuries but now the Son has appeared; he is the one the Father is well pleased with; it is the Father who instructs who to hear. Ultimately this shifts how we understand/see Almighty God....Sovereign, if you like.

What do I think this means in real terms? It means if the words and activity we read about in the OT attributed to God do not align with the character of Jesus, we have every right to question them.
For those with courage and self honesty this inevitably results in paradigm shift ('born again') a far more enlightened view of God than many writers had, including what they attributed to God saying and doing.

The spotlight of scrutiny in the light of Jesus' revelation of The Father is absolutely necessary if the Father's heart is to open in our consciousness.
Without Jesus we have a God itching to get his pound of flesh.

Jesus was gracious and merciful to forgive and heal the lame man at the pool of Bethesda.......but then He told Him to go and sin no more LEST SOMETHING WORSE HAPPEN TO HIM. Yes THAT Jesus. Remember what happened to Ananias and Saphira. The God of the old testament is still the God of the new. But this is the time of His longsuffering and grace that we are to account as salvation.....and that longsuffering has a shelf-life...an expiry date known only to the Father. SLOW to anger....means He gives us plenty of warning and time to repent before His anger does fall.

 

[St. SteVen]

Now it's clear you don't even consider sexual perversions to be sinful, so there is just no basis for discussion here.

The church has labeled homosexuality as "sexual perversion".
And they lump same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria and transgender with that.

That's what this topic is about. Did we get that right?
And how will the church handle this EVER-GROWING issue going forward?

Those who can't live with this sort of bigotry are seeking church elsewhere.

Thirty churches in Toronto.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

St. SteVen said:
A monogamous, legally married, homosexual couple comes to the Lord.
Should they divorce, or remain in the relationship?
Would you allow them fellowship in your church? Leadership? Ministry?

God’s laws?
Do you mean the Law of Moses that we are not under?

The question that needs to be addressed:
Is the biblical prohibition against same sex relationships
in reference to uncommitted relationships (promiscuity, like adultery/fornication),
or does it include monogamous (committed) relationships?

A secondary question would be about adultery/fornication.
Sometimes idolatry is labeled as adultery in the Bible.
Is it the act of idol worship, or the unfaithfulness to God, that is the issue?
Spiritual monogamy compared to spiritual promiscuity.


Well, in my example, they are legally married. I didn't specify for how long.

For the sake of discussion, I imagined them as having been together for over a decade.
Life had brought them together. They were soul mates. Fully committed to each other.

Now, you are proposing that this couple having at this point found the Lord,
should abandon each other? That they should seek a legal divorce. (since the are legally married)
Break up their family, if they had children together. (through adoption)
How do we suppose the children would feel about this?

Same for a divorced and remarried heterosexual couple coming to the Lord?
Been married for 20 years, with two additional children. You would Bible-bash them into a second divorce?
I have never heard of a church requiring this. Pretty sure I have heard advice that they should stay together.
Homosexuality would throw a wrench in that?

This whole thing appears to be a spiritual/emotional/social train wreck to me.

/

As for me I couldn't even begin to discuss what God's wisdom and grace might be for someone in a pickle, when you don't even believe them to be in a pickle. See that? No basis for discussion. Ships passing.

 

[St. SteVen]

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Did you forsake all that thou hadst?

/

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus was gracious and merciful to forgive and heal the lame man at the pool of Bethesda.......but then He told Him to go and sin no more LEST SOMETHING WORSE HAPPEN TO HIM. Yes THAT Jesus. Remember what happened to Ananias and Saphira. The God of the old testament is still the God of the new. But this is the time of His longsuffering and grace that we are to account as salvation.....and that longsuffering has a shelf-life...an expiry date known only to the Father. SLOW to anger....means He gives us plenty of warning and time to repent before His anger does fall.

I think God's long suffering is longggggggggg, ie it never ends. Jesus revealed this. If ever there was a time for God's long suffering to be revealed as having a shelf life surely it must have been when Jesus was tortured and murdered for being that which no other man had ever been.....or hasn't there been any thought given or the imagination transported to the situation and how the whole dastardly thing unfolded?....God with absolute power allowing himself to be violated....and that without resistance.

Men will be judged in the same manner Judas was judged. He judged himself. He judged he was not worthy to live. Jesus certainly didn't judge him that way; he washed his feet just a few hours earlier.

 

[St. SteVen]

No longer under the Law of Moses, yes.....and that means our righteousness must EXCEED that of those under the Law, not be less than theirs. Never mind committing adultery but if we even look after someone to lust after them..... The bar is set higher for we who are in Christ, not lower.

Do you see the contradiction?
Did you think the Law of Moses (the Torah) was not given by God?

You said:
"No longer under the Law of Moses, yes.....
... our righteousness must EXCEED that of those under the Law, not be less than theirs."

Not under = EXCEED ???

I think we need to understand this better.
Exceeding doesn't mean MORE legalistic, it means NOT legalistic.

But what's the use of discussing scripture with those who don't love the truth but are seeking only to justify the sins that they love more.

Agree.
You shouldn't talk to anyone like that.
Um... what were you saying?

/