WWJD with LGBTQ?

[quietthinker]

Do you see the contradiction?
Did you think the Law of Moses (the Torah) was not given by God?

You said:
"No longer under the Law of Moses, yes.....
... our righteousness must EXCEED that of those under the Law, not be less than theirs."

Not under = EXCEED ???

I think we need to understand this better.
Exceeding doesn't mean MORE legalistic, it means NOT legalistic.


Agree.
You shouldn't talk to anyone like that.
Um... what were you saying?

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An interesting way of seeing it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Men will be judged in the same manner Judas was judged. He judged himself. He judged he was not worthy to live. Jesus certainly didn't judge him that way; he washed his feet just a few hours earlier.

Wow.
That's a heavy thought. Thanks.

Imagine what was going through both of their minds at that moment. ???
Jesus removing Judas' sandals possibly thinking, "This is my betrayer."
Judas possibly thinking, "I'm planning to betray him, is it worth it? Can I really do this?"

Then at supper Jesus commands Judas, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”- John 13:27 NET

The challenge in Christianity is not to love Jesus, it's to love Judas.

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[quietthinker]

Then at supper Jesus commands Judas, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”- John 13:27 NET

I think this was a part of Jesus' non resistance. He never forced, either physically, emotionally or psychologically because that's how God is. He allows us to make our choices and those choices have consequences, either for life or for death.....even when he is in the firing line.

 

[Lizbeth]

Did you forsake all that thou hadst?

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Do you think it would be seemly to answer a question like that?

 

[St. SteVen]

An interesting way of seeing it.

Yes.
I believe Matthew chapter five beginning at verse 17 is greatly misunderstood.

Most people claim that the law is not abolished. (by clipping out "or the Prophets")
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.
I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them.[q] - vs 17 NET

Jesus wasn't talking about the laws themselves, but rather the BOOKS of the Law, or the BOOKS of the Prophets.
The fulfillment was of the PROPHECIES about him, not "the law" per se.
Jesus explained this after his resurrection. Here's the scripture.

Luke 24:44 NET
Then[a] he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you,
that everything written about me[b] in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms[c] must be fulfilled.”

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

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[Lizbeth]

The church has labeled homosexuality as "sexual perversion".
And they lump same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria and transgender with that.

That's what this topic is about. Did we get that right?
And how will the church handle this EVER-GROWING issue going forward?

Those who can't live with this sort of bigotry are seeking church elsewhere.

Thirty churches in Toronto.

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Do you know what perverse means? The bible speaks of it a lot in relation to many things. It means distorted, warped, crooked, not plumb with the plumbline. Shouldn't we all endeavour to line up with the plumbline? God's word applies to all sinners equally without discrimination.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Did you forsake all that thou hadst?

Do you think it would be seemly to answer a question like that?

If it makes you uncomfortable, we can consider it a rhetorical question.
Very few have forsaken all that they have to follow Christ. BUT...
In the scripture YOU quoted (see below), he says, unless you do, you "cannot be my disciple." (ouch)

Where does that leave you?
You even refuse to answer the question. Denying Christ publicly?
And there you are trying get the speck out of my eye.

Matthew 22:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

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[Lizbeth]

I think God's long suffering is longggggggggg, ie it never ends. Jesus revealed this. If ever there was a time for God's long suffering to be revealed as having a shelf life surely it must have been when Jesus was tortured and murdered for being that which no other man had ever been.....or hasn't there been any thought given or the imagination transported to the situation and how the whole dastardly thing unfolded?....God with absolute power allowing himself to be violated....and that without resistance.

Men will be judged in the same manner Judas was judged. He judged himself. He judged he was not worthy to live. Jesus certainly didn't judge him that way; he washed his feet just a few hours earlier.

His longsuffering for Israel ended in 70AD sadly, with the judgment/wrath that came to pass as prophesied.

 

[St. SteVen]

God's word applies to all sinners equally without discrimination.

I wish we could say that about the church's doctrine. - LOL

(sorry, that was such a good set-up)

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[quietthinker]

His longsuffering for Israel ended in 70AD sadly, with the judgment/wrath that came to pass as prophesied.

Israel was invaded by the Romans; they had become so odious to them that they went ballistic. It wasn't God who judged them, their undoing was themselves.
God weeps for his recalcitrant children.....his 'wrath' is allowing them to reap the consequences of their sustained choices.... even as he holds back the winds of strife.

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you know what perverse means?

As it applies to homosexual relationships, what do we define as perverse?
The church takes a hard line on this. Zero tolerance. As you can tell from my posts...
I'm not sure if we got this one right. The church has made a VERY complex issue into a knee-jerk binary one.

LGBTQ:
L = No!
G = No!
B = No!
T = No!
Q = No!

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[Lizbeth]

St. SteVen said:
Did you forsake all that thou hadst?

If it makes you uncomfortable, we can consider it a rhetorical question.
Very few have forsaken all that they have to follow Christ. BUT...
In the scripture YOU quoted (see below), he says, unless you do, you "cannot be my disciple." (ouch)

Where does that leave you?
You even refuse to answer the question. Denying Christ publicly?
And there you are trying get the speck out of my eye.

Matthew 22:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

/

Amen. Quite right. And let's not wrest it or twist it or dilute it to our own destruction.

 

[Lizbeth]

Israel was invaded by the Romans; they had become so odious to them that they went ballistic. It wasn't God who judged them, their undoing was themselves.
God weeps for his recalcitrant children.....his 'wrath' is allowing them to reap the consequences of their sustained choices.... even as he holds back the winds of strife.

Think we could say that in God's sovereignty and just wrath at the end of His longsuffering, He withheld His protection from them. Prophesied as an outpouring of His wrath and anger.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Did you forsake all that thou hadst?

If it makes you uncomfortable, we can consider it a rhetorical question.
Very few have forsaken all that they have to follow Christ. BUT...
In the scripture YOU quoted (see below), he says, unless you do, you "cannot be my disciple." (ouch)

Where does that leave you?
You even refuse to answer the question. Denying Christ publicly?
And there you are trying get the speck out of my eye.

Matthew 22:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Amen. Quite right. And let's not wrest it or twist it or dilute it to our own destruction.

Not sure what part(s) of my post you agreeing with, and what part(s) you wish to ...
"not wrest it or twist it or dilute it to our own destruction." ???

I'm guessing you and I both are in the same boat as to have not having forsaken ALL (needs to be defined) to follow Christ.

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[TheHC]

St. SteVen said:
1 Corinthians 7:21-24 NIV
Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—
although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person;
similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.
24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God,
should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

That's a good question, thanks.
No, I don't see being "a drunkard" or "an adulterer" as a "situation they were in" that should continue.
And a homosexual LIFESTYLE of illicit uncommitted promiscuity would be the same.
Not a situation that should continue.

If the homosexual relationship is monogamous, that requires some additional thought.

The question that needs to be addressed:
Is the biblical prohibition against same sex relationships
in reference to uncommitted relationships (promiscuity, like adultery/fornication),
or does it include monogamous (committed) relationships?

Same for a divorced and remarried heterosexual couple coming to the Lord?
Been married for 20 years, with two additional children. Should we Bible-bash them into a second divorce?
I have never heard of a church requiring this. Pretty sure I have heard advice that they should stay together.
Homosexuality would throw a wrench in that?

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I follow your scenario: this same-sex couple are committed (as a marriage should be.) A 20-year bond. That’s quite close! Near unbreakable. And some of these couples exhibit a desire to be close to God? Well….

With this world’s influence so strong, some concepts have become so entrenched, that I believe it will take Jehovah God Himself - and Jesus - to step in on an individual level, during each one’s resurrection, and possibly alter these things.

One thing we do know: Whatever Jehovah God and Jesus do, however they handle the situation, it will be just and caring.

They both paid a heavy price for us: Jesus dying from torture, and His Father watching His Son die!

 

[Aunty Jane]

St. SteVen said:
A monogamous, legally married, homosexual couple comes to the Lord.
Should they divorce, or remain in the relationship?
Would you allow them fellowship in your church? Leadership? Ministry?

God’s laws?
Do you mean the Law of Moses that we are not under?

No…we are now under the law of the Christ which, in principle, embraces all aspects of the Law of Moses as Jesus said….

”And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love the Lord your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matt 22:35-40)

You are trying to find loopholes in God’s law to suit the abberation of homosexuality and gender identification, which are products of our inherited imperfection. God will not change his long held laws and principles to accommodate what he forbids. You need to get that memo.

The question that needs to be addressed:
Is the biblical prohibition against same sex relationships
in reference to uncommitted relationships (promiscuity, like adultery/fornication),
or does it include monogamous (committed) relationships?

Since the Bible clearly states that God does not change, why are you requiring him to, and at the same time requiring us to do the same with respect to this question? What part of his law on these things do you not understand? Shaking your fist at God because you don’t think he is fair, will not alter a thing….neither will so called, “gay Christians” who want to dictate their will to God and expect him to capitulate….it’s never going to happen.

A secondary question would be about adultery/fornication.
Sometimes idolatry is labeled as adultery in the Bible.
Is it the act of idol worship, or the unfaithfulness to God, that is the issue?
Spiritual monogamy compared to spiritual promiscuity.

You are twisting things a bit here…..Those who did not know God when they divorced and remarried are not convicted because of their ignorance. When God yokes a man and a woman in marriage, it is to be a lasting commitment with the two existing as “one flesh” in his eyes. Most who bother to get married these days were never yoked together by God in the first place, so their current situation stands approved by God because now their union recognized and is blessed by him. No homosexual couple can claim to be yoked together by God….it is entirely their own decision.
If they become genuine Christians, no one will have to compel them to do what God requires…they will see the need to bring their lives into harmony with his will and do what is necessary…it is a sacrifice on their part and will have his blessing….OTOH, if they believe that God turns a blind eye to his own standards of conduct concerning his own creation, then they have no future in the world to come. It’s their choice.

Well, in my example, they are legally married. I didn't specify for how long.

For the sake of discussion, I imagined them as having been together for over a decade.
Life had brought them together. They were soul mates. Fully committed to each other.

And if they are genuine in their “coming to Christ”, they will have a new commitment….to God and his son. One that should be stronger than any human relationship.
They will voluntarily separate and do the will of God, not just their own selfish will.

At Matt 10:32-38, Jesus states what is required of every Christian…
”Everyone, then, who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father who is in the heavens. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens. 34 Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.”

Apply that admonition to a SS couple….our response to Christ’s commands is a test of our loyalty…..we either pass the test…or we don’t.

Now, you are proposing that this couple having at this point found the Lord,
should abandon each other? That they should seek a legal divorce. (since the are legally married)
Break up their family, if they had children together. (through adoption)
How do we suppose the children would feel about this?

Now you are again putting human emotions before God’s requirements……tell me how many monogamous couples do this on a regular basis? Marriage ends in divorce more often than it doesn’t. Children today, do not know what a committed relationship looks like.
If the separation is amicable, the children will be way less affected than if it is hostile, which it usually is because very few have the maturity to make their relationships last.

Same for a divorced and remarried heterosexual couple coming to the Lord?
Been married for 20 years, with two additional children. You would Bible-bash them into a second divorce?
I have never heard of a church requiring this. Pretty sure I have heard advice that they should stay together.
Homosexuality would throw a wrench in that?

This whole thing appears to be a spiritual/emotional/social train wreck to me.

Thinking purely from the flawed human perspective will do that……it elicits the ‘boo hoos‘ and the injustice of it all, as if perfect relationship exist for the majority in today’s world…..Heterosexual couples do not have the same situation as homosexual couples because their union is not forbidden by God….it’s really that simple.
Sacrifices are needed, and if they are not made to please God, no blessings can be expected. It’s a choice….a difficult one, but not impossible as there are quite a few in my own brotherhood who have made that sacrifice and lived the blessings that came from it……they are not miserable or regretful…..they prayerfully sought God’s help and received it…..you seem to leave God out of this altogether as a positive aspect of these decision….you concentrate only on the negative, as satan would want you to. You then spread the negative to influence others to your viewpoint….so do you understand where that then places you?

Are you familiar with the admonition that a well respected Pharisee named Gamaliel, made with regard to Jesus’ apostles when they were trying to force them to stop preaching?…
He told them…
“So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.”

From their perspective, the Jews were trying to protect Judaism from the apostasy of these Christians….but Gamaliel gave them something to think about….what if they were wrong? Where did they then put themselves from God’s perspective? That they might find themselves “fighters against God himself”…..

Food for thought….

 

[St. SteVen]

Since the Bible clearly states that God does not change...

I don't think that means what you claim it does.

To me it means that we can trust him.
It seems that you think that means the old covenant and the new covenant are identical.
Is that right? Correct me if I misunderstand you. Thanks.

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[Aunty Jane]

I don't think that means what you claim it does.

To me it means that we can trust him.

Are you free to interpret scripture to “I think”? Does it really matter what any of us “think”?
We have the entirety of Scripture to answer any questions or issues. Cherry picking verses that seem to support our viewpoint is really a form of self deception…one that God himself will not correct except by what is written in his word. We are really showing him where our loyalties are based.
Excuses for aberrant behavior will not be accepted.

It seems that you think that means the old covenant and the new covenant are identical.
Is that right? Correct me if I misunderstand you. Thanks.

Since God does not change his standards for anyone, we can assume that his moral standards cannot change for anyone….most especially for those who want to live a lifestyle that he clearly condemns in his word, both in the OT and the NT.

The new covenant is not identical, but based on unchangeable principles that the original law conveyed….the basics of the 10 Commandments, but there were many more laws governing Jewish life, all of them equally binding but not equally punished. There were capital offenses and those that required compensation to a victim….a very just system.

Homosexuality along with ALL forms of sexual immorality were punishable by death, so this indicates something for which God will not forgive an unrepentant, sexually immoral sinner.

 

[St. SteVen]

Are you free to interpret scripture to “I think”?

Yes, I am.

Does it really matter what any of us “think”?

Yes, it does.

The mindset that our thoughts don't matter is preposterous to me.

God loves us; we are his kids. He cares what his kids think.

We understand this because we have kids, and we care what they think.
Why do we do that? Where did we learn to care about what our kids think?

Again... the mindset that our thoughts don't matter is preposterous to me.

Just to be clear... MY THOUGHTS MATTER !!!!! - LOL

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[St. SteVen]

We have the entirety of Scripture to answer any questions or issues.

So, are all the answers in the Bible?
There is NOTHING outside of the Bible that will answer our questions?

Or should I ask...
NOTHING outside of the church's interpretation of the Bible that will answer our questions?

Cherry picking verses that seem to support our viewpoint is really a form of self deception…one that God himself will not correct except by what is written in his word.

That saw cuts both ways.
Are you claiming that you don't cherry-pick?

We are really showing him where our loyalties are based.
Excuses for aberrant behavior will not be accepted.

Yes. Loyalty to the institutional church and its doctrines?

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