We continue now with the comments made by one of our forum members (Robert Dirrick) on our reply on the Seventh Day Adventist beliefs concerning the Son of God. (See Part 1)
Roberts continues: ‘Since plainly the Word was God, then to say the Word began in the beginning is to say that God began in the beginning’.
In reply, it’s true, “The Word was god [theos]” Strong’s # 2316: a god; a mighty one, but he WAS NOT [ho Theos] THE God Strong’s # 3588: the, the definite article here distinguishing between the two.
As it is written in the original Greek:
Both of the following translations are correct; however, we like the second one better as it more clearly defines the statement. In the first translation the translators seemed a little reluctant to translate the Geek, “tov” or “ton”, i.e. “the”, Strong’s # 3588, most likely because of their Trinitarian bias. Nevertheless, the word is still there and can’t be ignored even if they chose to leave it blank.
As it is taken from the “Interlinear Bible”, found on the Bible Hub
᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
In [the] beginning was the Word and the Word was with – God
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
and God was the Word.
“The Emphatic Diaglott [Interlinear]” by Benjamin Wilson
᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
In a beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
and a god was the Word.
Bible Students make much of the use and non-use of the definite article in the Greek text in certain contexts. This is a legitimate part of bible study. In John 1 this is also an important consideration. When we introduce a subject in English, we introduce it with an indefinite article, immediately thereafter we switch to the definite article in order to refer to the thing we have just introduced.
For example, we might say: “I saw A cat. THE cat was in a tree”, and THE cat was after A bird, but THE bird flew away.”
“I saw A (indefinite article) cat. THE (definite article) cat was in a tree”
Note that each time a new subject or thing is introduced even within the same passage, such as our bird in the foregoing; it once again begins with an indefinite article.
Now how does this relate to our subject, let’s take a look. Our first object is the “beginning”.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1-2 NKJV)
The correct English translation would be:
“In A (indefinite article) beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was a God. He was in THE (definite article) beginning with God.”
Switching to another subject in our text, viz. “God” we read:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE (definite article; Greek: Ton Theos) God, and the Word was A (indefinite article; Theos) god. He was in the beginning with THE (definite article) God.”
In regards to placing the indefinite article (“a”) in the statement, “and the Word was a god”, this is left up to the translators to decide, however they have no choice but to add the definite article in the statement, “and the Word was with the God”, because it is clearly written in the Greek text.
“The translators being Greek scholars, are the ones who set this up and maintained it through the years. Believing in the Trinity theory they continue to translate as though the indefinite article (“a”) does not belong there. And it doesn't in Greek, but they are translating into English in which proper grammar demands the indefinite article ("a") for truth's sake. The ("a") is never used as an indefinite article in Greek; it is a number when used alone or else it is incorporated into words but never as an article. The translator puts in or leaves it out at his discretion.
How one translates the verse is actually irrelevant, as far as understanding the scripture in harmony with the Bible itself. Theos as applied to the Logos still refers back to the Hebraic usage of EL and ELOHIM, not to later re-definitions and terminology developed by the apostasy after the apostles died.
It is very straightforward regardless as to which way you wish to view Theos, whether as definite or indefinite, adjective or noun. The Logos is not the only true God with whom he was with, thus he is Theos in a sense similar to Jesus' usage of Theoi [the plural of Theos] as applied to the "sons of God." -- John 10:34, 35.
It should be apparent that if the Logos was WITH someone, he was not that someone that he is with. The Logos was with Ton Theos, he is not Ton Theos with whom he was with.
Who was the Logos with in the beginning?
Jesus later said that he was with his Father before the world existed. (John 17:5) Most Trinitarians deny that Jesus is the Father. Therefore, we need to examine, in the light of the rest of the scriptures [not through the later definitions of Trinitarian tint], how Theos is applied to the Logos.
Jesus himself gives us the clue, by going back to Hebraic usage of the word elohim (gods, or in singular settings, God in the superlative), when he quoted Psalm 82 and spoke of the elohim and theoi (plural of Theos), and applied it to those to whom the Word of God came. (John 10:34, 35)
In using the Hebraic background, Jesus shows that there is a proper usage of Theos other than meaning the Supreme Being -- the Supreme Power (the Almighty Himself). Remembering that the basic Hebraic meaning of the words el, elohim and eloah is strength, power, might, etc., the words are used in the OT in other terms than to denote Supreme Being Himself.
Certain men and angels are also called ELOHIM: Exod 4:16; 7:1; Psa 8:5 {compare Heb 2:9}; 86:6-8; 95:3; 50:1; Psa 82:6,7 (See John 10:34, 35; 1 John 3:2) The wicked (familiar) spirit that impersonated Samuel is also called elohim. (1 Sam 28:13)
Likewise, we read of the anointing of Jesus as elohim by his elohim -- his God: Psa 45:6, 7 (Heb 1:8, 9; Isa 61:1)
From this we see that it is no strange thing for Jesus to be referred to Theos, El, and Elohim, for he is the second most powerful being in the universe. So, we conclude that Theos is used of Jesus, not to denote that he is God, the Supreme Being, the Almighty Himself, but to denote the power he possessed, as received from the Almighty Father (The only Innate Power -- for all others who have power receive their power from him).”
We continue with Roberts remarks in our next post.
Roberts continues: ‘Since plainly the Word was God, then to say the Word began in the beginning is to say that God began in the beginning’.
In reply, it’s true, “The Word was god [theos]” Strong’s # 2316: a god; a mighty one, but he WAS NOT [ho Theos] THE God Strong’s # 3588: the, the definite article here distinguishing between the two.
As it is written in the original Greek:
Both of the following translations are correct; however, we like the second one better as it more clearly defines the statement. In the first translation the translators seemed a little reluctant to translate the Geek, “tov” or “ton”, i.e. “the”, Strong’s # 3588, most likely because of their Trinitarian bias. Nevertheless, the word is still there and can’t be ignored even if they chose to leave it blank.
As it is taken from the “Interlinear Bible”, found on the Bible Hub
᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
In [the] beginning was the Word and the Word was with – God
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
and God was the Word.
“The Emphatic Diaglott [Interlinear]” by Benjamin Wilson
᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
In a beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
and a god was the Word.
Bible Students make much of the use and non-use of the definite article in the Greek text in certain contexts. This is a legitimate part of bible study. In John 1 this is also an important consideration. When we introduce a subject in English, we introduce it with an indefinite article, immediately thereafter we switch to the definite article in order to refer to the thing we have just introduced.
For example, we might say: “I saw A cat. THE cat was in a tree”, and THE cat was after A bird, but THE bird flew away.”
“I saw A (indefinite article) cat. THE (definite article) cat was in a tree”
Note that each time a new subject or thing is introduced even within the same passage, such as our bird in the foregoing; it once again begins with an indefinite article.
Now how does this relate to our subject, let’s take a look. Our first object is the “beginning”.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1-2 NKJV)
The correct English translation would be:
“In A (indefinite article) beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was a God. He was in THE (definite article) beginning with God.”
Switching to another subject in our text, viz. “God” we read:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE (definite article; Greek: Ton Theos) God, and the Word was A (indefinite article; Theos) god. He was in the beginning with THE (definite article) God.”
In regards to placing the indefinite article (“a”) in the statement, “and the Word was a god”, this is left up to the translators to decide, however they have no choice but to add the definite article in the statement, “and the Word was with the God”, because it is clearly written in the Greek text.
“The translators being Greek scholars, are the ones who set this up and maintained it through the years. Believing in the Trinity theory they continue to translate as though the indefinite article (“a”) does not belong there. And it doesn't in Greek, but they are translating into English in which proper grammar demands the indefinite article ("a") for truth's sake. The ("a") is never used as an indefinite article in Greek; it is a number when used alone or else it is incorporated into words but never as an article. The translator puts in or leaves it out at his discretion.
How one translates the verse is actually irrelevant, as far as understanding the scripture in harmony with the Bible itself. Theos as applied to the Logos still refers back to the Hebraic usage of EL and ELOHIM, not to later re-definitions and terminology developed by the apostasy after the apostles died.
It is very straightforward regardless as to which way you wish to view Theos, whether as definite or indefinite, adjective or noun. The Logos is not the only true God with whom he was with, thus he is Theos in a sense similar to Jesus' usage of Theoi [the plural of Theos] as applied to the "sons of God." -- John 10:34, 35.
It should be apparent that if the Logos was WITH someone, he was not that someone that he is with. The Logos was with Ton Theos, he is not Ton Theos with whom he was with.
Who was the Logos with in the beginning?
Jesus later said that he was with his Father before the world existed. (John 17:5) Most Trinitarians deny that Jesus is the Father. Therefore, we need to examine, in the light of the rest of the scriptures [not through the later definitions of Trinitarian tint], how Theos is applied to the Logos.
Jesus himself gives us the clue, by going back to Hebraic usage of the word elohim (gods, or in singular settings, God in the superlative), when he quoted Psalm 82 and spoke of the elohim and theoi (plural of Theos), and applied it to those to whom the Word of God came. (John 10:34, 35)
In using the Hebraic background, Jesus shows that there is a proper usage of Theos other than meaning the Supreme Being -- the Supreme Power (the Almighty Himself). Remembering that the basic Hebraic meaning of the words el, elohim and eloah is strength, power, might, etc., the words are used in the OT in other terms than to denote Supreme Being Himself.
Certain men and angels are also called ELOHIM: Exod 4:16; 7:1; Psa 8:5 {compare Heb 2:9}; 86:6-8; 95:3; 50:1; Psa 82:6,7 (See John 10:34, 35; 1 John 3:2) The wicked (familiar) spirit that impersonated Samuel is also called elohim. (1 Sam 28:13)
Likewise, we read of the anointing of Jesus as elohim by his elohim -- his God: Psa 45:6, 7 (Heb 1:8, 9; Isa 61:1)
From this we see that it is no strange thing for Jesus to be referred to Theos, El, and Elohim, for he is the second most powerful being in the universe. So, we conclude that Theos is used of Jesus, not to denote that he is God, the Supreme Being, the Almighty Himself, but to denote the power he possessed, as received from the Almighty Father (The only Innate Power -- for all others who have power receive their power from him).”
We continue with Roberts remarks in our next post.
