Righteousness and Holiness

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marks

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Something @stunnedbygrace wrote, gave me the idea to ask this . . .

Righteous describes our state, while holy describes our nature.

Do you agree? Disagree?

This is something I'd like to talk about, and hear other's thoughts.

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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Something @stunnedbygrace wrote, gave me the idea to ask this . . .

Righteous describes our state, while holy describes our nature.

Do you agree? Disagree?

This is something I'd like to talk about, and hear other's thoughts.

Much love!

I have my thoughts, but I don't want to discourage responses. So I will wait to give my answer later. ;)
 

CharismaticLady

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Something @stunnedbygrace wrote, gave me the idea to ask this . . .

Righteous describes our state, while holy describes our nature.

Do you agree? Disagree?

This is something I'd like to talk about, and hear other's thoughts.

Much love!

Good question, marks.

I've thought about that from Revelation 22:11 in light of being made sinless by Christ taking away our sin, and then going forward to perfection in the maturity of the fruit of the Spirit. So I see righteous as sinless, and maturity in all fruit of the Spirit as being holy. We are righteous long before we are holy, but either state we are in when we die, is how we will remain - from a baby Christian to a pillar in the Bride of Christ.

11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
 
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marks

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I have my thoughts, but I don't want to discourage responses. So I will wait to give my answer later. ;)

I'm really just intending this as a starting point. I'm not necessarily settled in my thoughts on the matter. There is much to talk about I think!

Much love!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Good question, marks.

I've thought about that from Revelation 22:11 in light of being having been made sinless by Christ taking away our sin, and then going forward to perfection in the maturity of the fruit of the Spirit. So I see righteous as sinless, and maturity in all fruit of the Spirit as being holy. We are righteous long before we are holy, but either state we are in when we die, is how we will remain - from a baby Christian to a pillar in the Bride of Christ.

11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

I kind of like what you've said here but...to be forgiven and seen by God as righteous by trust does not mean a man is sinless. To be sinless is holiness. I think it must be the difference between being led and taught by the Spirit versus walking IN the Spirit. I'm going a bit over my head here. I'm doubtful if a man can walk at all times in the Spirit. But I remain hopeful that he can at all times walk in trust at some point in his life without stumbling in trust so darn much!
 
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CharismaticLady

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seen by God as righteous by trust does not mean a man is sinless.

I'm not sure what you mean by "righteous by trust." When I became born again it was real, I was literally filled to overflowing with the Spirit of God, and afterwards I had no desire to sin, whereas before, I was a slave to sin, and involved with a married man that to this day is still the love of my life. 30 years prior to being born again is when I "trusted" that God would take me to heaven, and seen by Him as righteous. I was wrong.

To be sinless is holiness.

When you are cleansed of all unrighteousness you are clean, sinless. Jesus took away all our past sins and erased them. That is when we are born again with a new Spirit-filled nature that you call holiness. But we are far from perfect because the seeds of the fruit of the Spirit need time to grow. They have nothing to do with sins unto death like my adultery that was completely taken away, but are flaws just the same. They are called trespasses, a minor sin by comparison. And we are to forgive each other these trespasses against each other according to the Lord's Prayer and the next verse, Matthew 6:14-15, in order to remain "sinless." I equate perfection with holiness, but I also like your view of holiness as our new nature, and it is probably the right one. Otherwise, who would be saved, for without holiness, no man shall see God? I should call perfection, the mature state of glorification. That is what I received from the Spirit when I asked about sanctification. The life-long process after becoming born again is not sanctification (overcoming sin), but glorification (becoming like Christ.) 2 Peter 1:5-7 are the steps. It is the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit.

I think it must be the difference between being led and taught by the Spirit versus walking IN the Spirit. I'm going a bit over my head here. I'm doubtful if a man can walk at all times in the Spirit.

I find it hard not to walk in the Spirit. He is part of my new nature. But, I guess at my age and after 44 years of being in the Spirit it would be easy...

But I remain hopeful that he can at all times walk in trust at some point in his life without stumbling in trust so darn much!

Regarding "stumbling" I like the steps I just mentioned. Read the context, especially the end. 2 Peter 1:2-11.
 

Philip James

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Something @stunnedbygrace wrote, gave me the idea to ask this . . .

Righteous describes our state, while holy describes our nature.

Do you agree? Disagree?

This is something I'd like to talk about, and hear other's thoughts.

Much love!

Hello marks,

The one who does what is right and just is righteous.

When a virtuous man turns away from what is right and does wrong, he shall die for it.

But when a wicked man turns away from wickedness and does what is right and just, because of this he shall live.

And still you say, "The way of the LORD is not fair!"? I will judge every one of you according to his ways, O house of Israel.


Peace be with you!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I'm not sure what you mean by "righteous by trust." When I became born again it was real, I was literally filled to overflowing with the Spirit of God, and afterwards I had no desire to sin, whereas before, I was a slave to sin, and involved with a married man that to this day is still the love of my life. 30 years prior to being born again is when I "trusted" that God would take me to heaven, and seen by Him as righteous. I was wrong.

You dont understand that Abraham believed and trusted what God said and God counted his trust as righteousness? That is the righteousness that is by trust (faith.) God counted his trust as righteousness before Abraham did anything else.

God grows a mans faith. That should lead to other things, but you seem to insist God may take no time and patience with a man but must take him into holiness first and that is not the experience of most men. Most men learn the obedience of trust by the things they suffer.
 
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marks

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Hello marks,

The one who does what is right and just is righteous.

When a virtuous man turns away from what is right and does wrong, he shall die for it.

But when a wicked man turns away from wickedness and does what is right and just, because of this he shall live.

And still you say, "The way of the LORD is not fair!"? I will judge every one of you according to his ways, O house of Israel.


Peace be with you!
I have to say, I do find our covenant to be based on better promises!

Much love!
 

stunnedbygrace

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I have to say, I do find our covenant to be based on better promises!

Much love!

You are doing what is right if you admit the truth. You are doing what is right to trust God. A sinner walks away justified if he admits the truth about himself and trusts God.
 
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marks

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Be Holy, even as I am Holy.

How do we fulfill that?

Are we told to do something which we cannot do?

Will faith in Christ fulfill holiness in us?

Much love!
 

Riverwalker

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Righteous describes our state, while holy describes our nature
That's very good yes. Our righteousness is not our own and not of our doing, It is a gift of God. But living right, being holy and sanctified to our Lord is our choice....and if our nature is to serve God, we will choose to live right.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
 
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CharismaticLady

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You dont understand that Abraham believed and trusted what God said and God counted his trust as righteousness? That is the righteousness that is by trust (faith.) God counted his trust as righteousness before Abraham did anything else.

God grows a mans faith. That should lead to other things, but you seem to insist God may take no time and patience with a man but must take him into holiness first and that is not the experience of most men. Most men learn the obedience of trust by the things they suffer.

Wow! You are the one that said sinlessness was holiness. I didn't. That is when we are born again and cleansed of all unrighteousness. I think of that as being made righteous. We are justified and sanctified when we are born again.

I said holiness had to do with perfection which takes a lifetime, and the steps are 2 Peter 1:5-7.

But think what you want of me. I'm done with this thread.
 

quietthinker

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If one has concluded that God has had a change of mind in how he runs the show anytime in his governance one hasn't understood the unchangeable nature of God.

Could it be that what matters is eclipsed by our own wisdom? ...the wisdom that cannot discern the right hand from the left but makes many words to prove they can?

I would suggest that the carnal man cannot understand the inherent beauty in righteousness or holiness except to stay away from it; to feel threatened by it and to formulate theories which gives, at least in their own mind, impunity.

Adam knew he was naked because in rebellion his self image plummeted both spiritually, emotionally and finally physically. It went so fast righteousness and holiness became a threat which he thought a few leaves would mitigate. His progeny continue with their inherited affliction.

Why would a man born anew argue with God's unspeakable gift of righteousness and holiness. In truth one would acknowledge their many deficits while gratitude and trust in God's provision would exclaim with David 'Oh how I love thy Law'
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Wow! You are the one that said sinlessness was holiness. I didn't. That is when we are born again and cleansed of all unrighteousness. I think of that as being made righteous. We are justified and sanctified when we are born again.

I said holiness had to do with perfection which takes a lifetime, and the steps are 2 Peter 1:5-7.

But think what you want of me. I'm done with this thread.

Not quite sure what I did that offended you and made you flee the thread but okay.

edit to add: I searched back through my conversations. In my head I had you mixed up with someone in another thread called just by faith. In my head, I was attributing something he/she said to you. I maybe should not be in more than one thread at once. I have done this a few times in the past too. I’m really sorry for mixing you up with someone else!
 
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Enoch111

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Righteous describes our state, while holy describes our nature.
Not really. There are two kinds of righteousness -- imputed righteousness (which is God's gift to the one who believes on Christ, which means that one is justified by grace through faith) and practical righteousness (doing right through application of the two greatest commandments, which sum up the Ten Commandments, which means walking in the Spirit). Imputed righteousness pertains to our STANDING with God. Practical righteousness pertains to our STATE.

And holiness is separateness or separation, hence dedication (being set apart as a living sacrifice to God). Those who are righteous separate themselves from the philosophies and ideas of the world, as well as from all that is sinful and evil in the world (the three primary lusts). They also separate themselves from apostate churches and sinning brethren (until there is repentance).

But they also expose (or rebuke) the evil that is around them (as did Christ). Christ was holy -- "separate from sinners". Which did not mean that He would not mingle with sinners. It meant that he would not partake of their evil deeds, nor fellowship with evildoers. And He did not hesitate to cleanse the temple, or condemn the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers, and the leaven of the Pharisees (their doctrines).
 

stunnedbygrace

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I'm not sure what you mean by "righteous by trust." When I became born again it was real, I was literally filled to overflowing with the Spirit of God, and afterwards I had no desire to sin, whereas before, I was a slave to sin, and involved with a married man that to this day is still the love of my life. 30 years prior to being born again is when I "trusted" that God would take me to heaven, and seen by Him as righteous. I was wrong.

Now that I figured out what went wrong in our conversation, I hope you will be back.
I am trying to reconcile my own experience with yours which is probably nuts, but I think I’m doing so to make sure that I never, never make someone sad or discouraged God doesn’t want to be sad or discouraged.

You put the word trusted in quotes, so I’m thinking that means you are saying you didn’t really trust. I would like to know if that was truly, truly the case or if your trust was still just very small and weak. Did you struggle in trust those 30 years? Did you read your bible ever or get little understandings? Did you ever pray or talk to God in those 30 years? Did you ever sense His presence in any way those years?
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I do think I see one thing I can relate to and somewhat understand in what you said in your post, and it’s a very new thing for me so I would not have been able to relate at all except for very recently. It’s when you say you asked God about sanctification and all your desire to sin left you.

I had recently said to God, I have struggled to trust You more these 14 years. I have insisted on trust even when people thought I was a weirdo for it and I didn’t care what they thought. My entire being was focused on trusting You more and more and it filled my whole world. But I lack love and I see trust is not enough. Faith is not enough. I am so filled with all these resentments and angers just like everyone else, even the people I know who don’t trust You at all. I hate myself and I hate them as well, we are all intolerable. If I, who trust You, have the same lack of love as those who don’t trust you at all, what is the point of anything? I see that I lack love and I see that it will never be in me unless You give it to me. I want to flee others and I want to flee myself. I do not have love so I can’t love others and I hate myself every bit as much as I hate everyone else.

Soon after, I realized my passions, angers and resentments were somehow knocked out. Someone would do or say something awful, ugly, unfair and I would hold back these tears until after they’d gone. I could not figure out what the tears were about since I wasn’t angry or resentful at how they’d acted. It took me awhile to figure out that what I was feeling with the tears was pity.I was crying because I pitied them seeing as how they were still being tossed around by their passions when He had somehow let me escape mine.

But I think I can see we both received the same gift, miracle, mercy. I would explain it as not being ruled by my passions any more, which I think might be the same thing as your “ no desire to sin.” I am not aware of any great outward sins I was stuck in but inwardly, I was murdering everyone over and over again for their pettinesses, their selfishnesses, their lack of care for me even though I was the same way as them. And you asked God about sanctification, I asked Him for love, but what He gave us seems to be the same thing. I don’t know if it is love, this pity for others still in that captivity. I kind of think it isn’t...but I don’t know.

But we differ on whether we were trusting God, however imperfectly, or had eternal life before our passions were calmed. I was trusting Him and asking for what I saw I lacked. I could see He was saving me every day, leading me every day, teaching me about what was right, teaching me the obedience of trust by the things I suffered. I just couldn’t do what was right even though I knew it was right. I could not. My passions would not allow it. My passions were the enemies in the land.

My main concern is to build up the trust of others rather than making them sad or defeated, seeing as how such great good came to me by learning to radically trust rather than worry and by asking for what I saw I lacked. How could I not want this great blessing for them or fail to encourage them to lay aside worries for trust? If they are growing in trust, they are doing the one thing God has asked of them and HE is the one growing it. So it’s very easy to see He is saving them every day, so why would anyone say to them, you are not saved until your passions are subdued or until your trust is grown huge. And if they have received a down payment of Gods Spirit and are being led into the hard things they suffer to grow their trust, I think some could be sidetracked by your saying one is not being saved by God and being kept by God until they no longer sin in their hearts. I would just like you to reconsider the babies and not discourage them and I am writing this last part with tears and hope that you might consider those still weak in their trust.
 

Philip James

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I have to say, I do find our covenant to be based on better promises!

Much love!

Yes indeed, thanks be to God!

Better promises that actually empower us to do what is right and just..

And so we will be called to a higher account..

Peace be with you!