The Baptism In The Holy Spirit

[rockytopva]

I have taken devotions from William Seymour and have put together a video that I named "The Baptism in the Holy Ghost: Seymour-Azusa Street." It uses the metaphor of the Old Testament temple giving 7 steps to the baptism...

***The Outer Court ***
1. The Outer Gate - Justification - The outer gates: We are justified by faith and Jesus is the door to the Kingdom of God.
2. The Alter - Salvation - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved! (Acts 15:11) (Acts 16:31)
3. The Laver - Outer sanctification - Conforming to a righteous believers standard.
*** The Inner Court ****
4. The Table of Shewbread - Immersed in the Word of God.
5. The Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, love, joy, energy, illumination. (Also called spiritual fruit)
6. The Alter of the Golden Incense - Prayer and praise.
*** The Holy of Holies ***
7. The Ark of the Covenant - The Shekinah Glory.


Note... I have left tongues out of the Holy of Holies and have likened the Baptism to the Shekinah Glory. I just know too many people who claim to have the gift of tongues but deep down they are like everyone else.

I prepared this video many months ago and am planning on redoing it. So if anyone has any suggestions they will be appreciated. Thanks

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=HUYYHNPe0o0

 

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You've got a nice presentation there, but I don't think it addresses the subject properly.

Too many buzz words. No clear succinct demonstrable simple explanations.

For example, your photos of ancient temples as well as the Hebrew temple are all accurate, but how does that relate to the viewer/reader and to his spiritual experience?
Oh yes, you quoted the scripture that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, but it's just another buzz word.

A lot of people, including Christians, don't know what that really means and therein lies the main problem.

For example. Look at what ought to be a really simple idea that isn't clearly understood.
What is a soul and what is a spirit?
You'd think that these two english words would have been easily defined and understood, except that they aren't.
Look at threads on the subject here on this board and on others. Folks just don't know the difference.

If people don't know how to define what it is they ARE, how can they understand the relationship between the Holy Spirit and man, sin and salvation, God and the devil?

Your video takes HUGE leaps and takes for granted that the viewer both understands and accepts what you're trying to say. It is VERY scholarly work, very complex and very pretty and potentially very confusing becuse it takes in a grand sweep of theology in just a small space.

Remember the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simply Simple).
For example;
Q. What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
A. God in me

Even my three word answer can be misunderstood. Humanist secular society deems that god is in all of us. Not the same. Not even close. It's as different as looking at a picture of ice cream and eating a banana split.

If I may make a suggestion; that you treat this video as a sort of grand outline to an entire series, each part of the series being a lengthy detailed explanation of every minor point in the video. You could write a large book based on this video and not even cover the subject as well as you'd like....once you got going.

Go back to square one and start over with ONE IDEA and keep your presentation simple. Take nothing for granted on the part of the viewer/reader.

Your video was good, but I get the idea that it was just a toy to you.
You have more grandiose ideas in your head and you've done them a disservice in such a small compact presentation.

Write a book.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that it was Edwin Louis Cole who once said that "Change is not change until its change."


To get the "God in me" out of the mind and into the heart is something sometimes easier said then done. My old Baptist church has been 40 years praying for revival and when you go to the web site... They are still praying for revival!

It's almost like Plato's Meno where Socrates is debating the source of virtue. If virtue is not knowledge can it be taught? If not then it must have been bestowed upon us by the divinity. So to reword that phrase "If the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not knowledge can it be taught?" If I were to teach people how to speak in tongues and them explain to them that they had received the Holy Spirit would I be speaking truth or fantasy? Or if I were to tell someone that they had the Holy Spirit and they had not the spiritual light and energy would I be speaking truth or fantasy?


"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," - Galatians 4:19


Paul was writing to a church who apparently was a million miles away from having "Christ be formed in you." So I think there are seven things important to get people from here to there...

1. Justification - Building of faith
2. Salvation - Sinners prayer
3. Sanctification - Setting a righteous believers standard.
4. Daily in the word - Give them that little "Daily Word" publication and encourage a good mental diet.
5. Spiritual Light - Set the correct spiritual atmosphere
6. Prayer and Praise - Have prayer meetings and meetings of praise and worship...
7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit - At this point they should be really close to the shekinah glory!

Even after posting my beliefs on the subject if someone were to watch the video would it do them any good? So I too examine my approach on this subject. Your opinion is valuable. As you said many books could be written on this subject all of which I am trying to fit in a 15 minute video..

I assume great responsibility for what I post on the Web. As I will give account to God one day for 'every idle word' (Matthew 12:36) I try to represent him well in all my postings.


Thanks.

 

[[email protected]]

I believe that it was Edwin Louis Cole who once said that "Change is not change until its change."


To get the "God in me" out of the mind and into the heart is something sometimes easier said then done. My old Baptist church has been 40 years praying for revival and when you go to the web site... They are still praying for revival!

It's almost like Plato's Meno where Socrates is debating the source of virtue. If virtue is not knowledge can it be taught? If not then it must have been bestowed upon us by the divinity. So to reword that phrase "If the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not knowledge can it be taught?" If I were to teach people how to speak in tongues and them explain to them that they had received the Holy Spirit would I be speaking truth or fantasy? Or if I were to tell someone that they had the Holy Spirit and they had not the spiritual light and energy would I be speaking truth or fantasy?


"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," - Galatians 4:19

I was serious when I suggested that you write a book, or books, or expanded videos. Not joking. You've got some serious back story work already 'in the can', so to speak.

Sorry to hear about the church that prayed for 40 years for revival. (It almost sounds as though that's a lead line for a joke.)

I spent nearly thirty years in the Episcopal church and discovered to my dismay that their problems are caused by the leadership. It is far too easy to blame the flock for the sins and omissions of the shepards. Those poor folks didn't even have enough guidance to pray for divine healing, much less revival..

The great spectacular American revival period is past. The last one was in the late 1960's and early 1970's. That time was an invitation to all. It was an open letter, if you will, from God to every ear that heard it, to come to His table. It was a glorious time and I'm priviledged to be able to say that I was part of it. We shall not see anything like it again in this country.

However, I do believe that there is a work of the Holy Spirit being done among us. I've sat in churches from one coast to the other and the HS seems to be saying and doing the same thing everywhere. It is a call to Holiness and honesty. It is a call to shed the sins and habits of false religion and to abandon our attitude of passive indifference toward God. It is a quiet movement, but immensly powerful. I would not be surprised if you went back to your old church and discovered such a thing happening beneath the surface.

There is a great deal more to the baptism/filling of the Holy Spirit than excited, unintelligable utterances (and I've done my share, believe me). As I stated before, it is extremely difficult to teach anyone the basic principles of Christian spirituality. The majority of Americans are too opinionated, too obstinate and too spiritually illiterate to absorb new information. One can, however, teach a man if he has experienced a small touch from God or if he is going through a hard time. In that sense, then, our present economic difficulty is a blessing.

I have also observed that there is an urgency to this most recent work of the Holy Spirit and I cannot but wonder why.

 

[Martin W.]

I have been in Pentecostal churches where the folks are swinging on the chandeliers , rolling on the carpet , and making a lot of noise.

It looks mostly like emotional exuberance with little else accomplished.

On the other hand I have observed a small "quiet" rural Canadian Church with less than 70 members at any one time. But that is because thousands of Christians have come through the doors , only to go out worldwide and accomplish incredibly solid growth for Christianity. The accomplishments border on miraculous.

I ask ..... which setting has The Holy Spirit at work ???

The Pentecostal would probably say the little church was "not filled with the Spirit" ..... it is .... "too "dead" ... in their opinion. They are mistaken.

It is a common error the charismatic makes. The charismatic does not have an elusive on the Holy Spirit but it is hard to get them to acknowledge it.

It detracts from their prideful feeling of being exclusive..They claim that nobody has more Holy Spirit than the Charismatic. Just ask one and you will see..


My observations
Martin W

 

[rockytopva]

I have redone the video by the way... And didn't omit the very important disclaimer....

“Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.” - William Seymour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SID1FZZDtPw

 

[rockytopva]

I was serious when I suggested that you write a book, or books, or expanded videos. Not joking. You've got some serious back story work already 'in the can', so to speak.

Sorry to hear about the church that prayed for 40 years for revival. (It almost sounds as though that's a lead line for a joke.)

That church and their overly fundamentalist pastor is woefully too much like a joke. My mom made me go there when I was a boy and it was all that I could do to keep from falling asleep.

Thanks for the comment... I must cry along with *John Wesley that I am no more than a "knave, a fool, a rascal, and a scoundrel but am content." I prefer to be nothing so Christ can be my all in all.

*Wesley's letter to Francis Asbury

London, September 20, 1788


To The Reverend[sup]1[/sup] Francis Asbury:


There is, indeed, a wide difference between the relation that you stand with the Americans, and the relation where I stand with all Methodists. You are the elder brother of the American Methodists: I am, under God, the Father of the whole family. Therefore I naturally care for you all in a manner no other persons can do. Therefore, I, in a measure, provide for you all, for the supplies which Dr Coke provides for you, he could not provide, were it not for me, were it not only permit him to collect, but also support him in so doing.

But, in one point, my dear brother, I am a little afraid, both the Dr and you differ from me. I study to be a little, you study to be great. I creep, you strut along. I found a school, you a College! Nay, and call it after your own names[sup]2[/sup]! O beware! Do not seek to be something! Let me be nothing and “Christ be all in all!”

One instance of this, of your greatness, has given me great concern. How can you, how dare you, suffer yourself to be called Bishop? I shudder, I start at the very thought! Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content: But they shall never, by my consent, call me Bishop! For my sake, for God’s sake, for Christ’s sake, put a full end to this! Let the Presbyterians do what they please, but let the Methodist know their calling better.

Thus, my dear Franky, I have told you all that is in my heart. And let this, when I am no more seen, bear witness how sincerely I am your affectionate friend and brother.

John Wesley


Footnotes:

1. He didn't call him 'Bishop Asbury.'
2. Cokesbury College - The name is formed from its two founders, Coke and Asbury.

 

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I have been in Pentecostal churches where the folks are swinging on the chandeliers , rolling on the carpet , and making a lot of noise.

It looks mostly like emotional exuberance with little else accomplished.

Me too.

Emotional exuberance? I think that much of the time that's exactly what it is.

I find nothing wrong with that, however.
I have also known times of striking evidence of the presence and work of the Holy Spirit in those churches.

African-American worship services are really fun too sometimes.

Is there something wrong with having a good time in church?

It is all a matter of expression and a desire to share one's faith in a special way.
It doesn't mean that the worship is fake or that the faith is false.

It may suggest that some of us are too quick to judge the heart of another man.

On the other hand I have observed a small "quiet" rural Canadian Church with less than 70 members at any one time. But that is because thousands of Christians have come through the doors , only to go out worldwide and accomplish incredibly solid growth for Christianity. The accomplishments border on miraculous.

I ask ..... which setting has The Holy Spirit at work ???

How about both!

Is that a stretch for you?

If so, ask yourself why.

 

[IanLC]

I belong to a Christ church. We are holiness-penteocstal in doctrine. We do not believe that the gifts of tongues is the only evidence of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of you. Because it is not and would be false to say so. So i get personally affended when people make generalizations of pentecostals because many of the stereotypes are not true!

 

[rockytopva]

I belong to a Christ church. We are holiness-penteocstal in doctrine. We do not believe that the gifts of tongues is the only evidence of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of you. Because it is not and would be false to say so. So i get personally affended when people make generalizations of pentecostals because many of the stereotypes are not true!

I will give that one a thumbs up! It's kinda like saying that all black people are the same or all white people are the same. The model of revival given to us by William Seymour...

***The Outer Court ***
1. The Outer Gate - Justification - The outer gates: We are justified by faith and Jesus is the door to the Kingdom of God.
2. The Alter - Salvation - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved! (Acts 15:11) (Acts 16:31)
3. The Laver - Outer sanctification - Conforming to a righteous believers standard.

*** The Inner Court ****
4. The Table of Shewbread - Immersed in the Word of God.
5. The Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, love, joy, energy, illumination. (Also called spiritual fruit)
6. The Alter of the Golden Incense - Prayer and praise.

*** The Holy of Holies ***
7. The Ark of the Covenant - The Shekinah Glory.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14

Our Pentecostal Holiness church here in Virginia came about by in home prayer meetings / bible studies. If people could open their homes to prayer and bible study and humble themselves and fast and pray its hard to tell what will break out!