No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

[Truth7t7]

Yes, it speaks of those who are there at the time. If some are raptured before that time, they are not included, it still speaks of those who are there at the time. If someone dies before that time, they are not included, it still speaks to those who are there at the time.

Much love!

It speaks "Prophetically" to the "Future" Church that will be witnesses of the "Future" great tribulation and second coming

I cant make it more plain and simple

 

[Timtofly]

These statements do not have to be taken personally, but I can see how you would. There is no easy way to say it, Mark, if you wish to discuss it at all? Try to take the assumed "poison" out of it. And look at the claims again.

God calls us to be bold, and not fear confessing his name. If we put even family ahead of Christ, we are unworthy of him, and he will deny us. Is that poisonous? No--only if you wear the shoes. Only if you're ashamed of Christ.

To fear the terrors of the so-called Tribulation Period is to shrink from faith that God is able to make us stand, to help us in our affliction. Paul was beat down, but not destroyed. You may not be afraid of suffering ridicule for Christ. Then don't wear the shoes!

Those who want to pose a Pretrib position build up the "Tribulation Period" into a holy terror, to scare people so that they're so afraid of this period of time they quickly opt for the Pretrib position. It is an unfair strategy, but that's how it works. Create an image of the "Tribulation Period" as a Hell on earth, replete with heads lopped off, plagues covering the earth, terrible weather conditions, boils, etc. This is designed to prove that the "Tribulation Period" is the "Wrath of God" and not designed to be experienced by Christians.

In reality, we all know, Postrib and Pretrib, that Christians do go through the Tribulation, through the persecutions of Antichrist, and through the plagues of the earth. Who else does the Antichrist persecute but Christians?

I don't at all believe you're being "intellectually dishonest" if you adopt the Pretrib position. No doubt you were taught it or raised up on it. However, these tactics in Pretrib teaching are real, and, I believe, designed to create fear so that you believe in that system.

False systems, by nature, utilize carnal arguments to attract attention. That's why we have all these Pretrib Rapture movies and books--they're pure entertainment, with very little spiritual value. But for what it's worth, there is some Christianity in them, and I therefore indulge in them myself. ;)

The tribulation is the final harvest of Adam's flesh and blood. All will be dead before it can be over.

 

[GEN2REV]

One of the biggest reasons this extra-biblical doctrine has been created and foisted upon mainstream Christianity is that it allows, and actually encourages, luke-warm Christians to be wishy-washy in their commitment to God and the Bible. Why?

It promises a Second Chance for all.

Now hear this: THERE WILL BE NO SECOND CHANCES!

The time is NOW to get right with God.

The funny thing, 7T7, is that many will come out of the woodwork to RE-TRANSLATE all of these verses, but these verses all fully, and clearly, support your thread.

(Matthew 24:29-31)(Mark 13:26-27)(Luke 21:27-28)
"Immediately AFTER the Tribulation ... shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: ... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds ... with power and great glory. He shall send His angels ... and they shall gather together His elect ..."

Jesus (God) only returns once and He will return with the clouds. (Isaiah 19:1)(Mark 13:26)(Acts 1:9-11)((Revelation 1:7)

In the book of John it is stated SIX TIMES that Jesus is coming on the LAST DAY. (Cue the 'Last Day' naysayers -"Aargh! It doesn't mean last day, it means something else!!")

Jesus, Himself, says Last Day FIVE TIMES.
(John 6:39-40,44,54; 11:24; 12:48)

This subject always reminds me of an excellent passage from an author that I do not endorse due to certain false doctrines, but he absolutely got this one right. Sorry for the length, but its quantity is equal to its quality.

This is why we don't want, or need, a Pre-Trib Rapture. God is only coming once and when He does, it will likely resemble this:

"God will invade. But I wonder whether people who ask God to interfere openly and directly in our world quite realise what it will be like when He does. When that happens, it is the end of the world. When the author walks onto the stage the play is over. God is going to invade, all right: but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural (world) melting away like a dream and something else -- something it never entered your head to conceive -- comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing: it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realised it before or not. Now, today, this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us a chance. It will not last for ever. We must take it or leave it."

-C.S. Lewis
Mere Christianity (p. 65)

 

[Truth7t7]

These statements do not have to be taken personally, but I can see how you would. There is no easy way to say it, Mark, if you wish to discuss it at all? Try to take the assumed "poison" out of it. And look at the claims again.

God calls us to be bold, and not fear confessing his name. If we put even family ahead of Christ, we are unworthy of him, and he will deny us. Is that poisonous? No--only if you wear the shoes. Only if you're ashamed of Christ.

To fear the terrors of the so-called Tribulation Period is to shrink from faith that God is able to make us stand, to help us in our affliction. Paul was beat down, but not destroyed. You may not be afraid of suffering ridicule for Christ. Then don't wear the shoes!

Those who want to pose a Pretrib position build up the "Tribulation Period" into a holy terror, to scare people so that they're so afraid of this period of time they quickly opt for the Pretrib position. It is an unfair strategy, but that's how it works. Create an image of the "Tribulation Period" as a Hell on earth, replete with heads lopped off, plagues covering the earth, terrible weather conditions, boils, etc. This is designed to prove that the "Tribulation Period" is the "Wrath of God" and not designed to be experienced by Christians.

In reality, we all know, Postrib and Pretrib, that Christians do go through the Tribulation, through the persecutions of Antichrist, and through the plagues of the earth. Who else does the Antichrist persecute but Christians?

I don't at all believe you're being "intellectually dishonest" if you adopt the Pretrib position. No doubt you were taught it or raised up on it. However, these tactics in Pretrib teaching are real, and, I believe, designed to create fear so that you believe in that system.

False systems, by nature, utilize carnal arguments to attract attention. That's why we have all these Pretrib Rapture movies and books--they're pure entertainment, with very little spiritual value. But for what it's worth, there is some Christianity in them, and I therefore indulge in them myself. ;)

I agree with your detailed explanation, in how the Pre-Trib rapture is sold based upon "Fear"

Yes it was the many movies in the 70's-80's-90's played every Friday & Saturdsy nights in Churches around the country, antichrist death squads chasing down Christian's, no medical delivered in emergency rooms unless the mark was received, guillotines on every street corner (Fabricated Propaganda)

I will post the top propaganda "Film Series" with a link for those that desire to take a peek, there are many "Smiles"

1972 A Thief In The Night

1978 A Distant Thunder

1981 Image Of The Beast

1983 The Prodigal Planet

 

[marks]

It speaks "Prophetically" to the "Future" Church that will be witnesses of the "Future" great tribulation and second coming

I cant make it more plain and simple

I'm afraid I can't either. It applies to those who are alive on the earth at the time. It doesn't apply to my mother, for instance, as she has passed away. It may not apply to me either. I may be dead tomorrow, and these things fulfilled after that.

And just the same, if the church present is whisked away in a rapture, those people won't be present on the the earth after that, but even so, those prophesies will just the same be fulfilled in those who are alive and present on the earth at that time.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm afraid I can't either. It applies to those who are alive on the earth at the time. It doesn't apply to my mother, for instance, as she has passed away. It may not apply to me either. I may be dead tomorrow, and these things fulfilled after that.

And just the same, if the church present is whisked away in a rapture, those people won't be present on the the earth after that, but even so, those prophesies will just the same be fulfilled in those who are alive and present on the earth at that time.

Much love!

You desperately fight to maintain a pre-trib rapture, I fully agree those seen will be future as you falsely suggest I dont

You then create a scenario that any taken in a pre-trib rapture could be included in Luke 21:25-28, 100% False

The scripture clearly states they will look up when the signs of the second coming are seen, you falsely suggest they will be raptured before this

 

[Enoch111]

The Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens,

More nonsensical posts on Bible eschatology, about which YOU HAVE NO CLUE. Why not deal with teachings which you actually understand?

 

[Truth7t7]

More nonsensical posts on Bible eschatology, about which YOU HAVE NO CLUE. Why not deal with teachings which you actually understand?

Biased Opinion, Void Of Scriptural Argument, Because There Isnt Any

A Pre-Trib Rapture Is Man's Created "Fiction" Promoted By John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield in His 1909 Reference Bible

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Pretrib is an invention of Man, who wanted to believe that Christians shouldn't have to suffer in times of God's wrath upon the earth. But throughout history, there have been particularly difficult periods in which God's wrath was poured out on sections of humanity, and Christians always had to endure as witnesses to God's love and grace in those times. There is a reason God doesn't call cowards

Yes, we cowardly pre-tribbers Resemble your wonderful remarks :)

But Thanks Be Unto God For HIS Rightly Divided Purpose for
The Body Of CHRIST! Amen? We have NEVER denied tribulations For
The Body Of CHRIST! God is "Pouring Out GRACE," NOT wrath!

GRACE Word for infirmities! {RDf}:​

And, we also understand Great Tribulation for The Nation Of ISRAEL, but
"the TWAIN shall never meet," NEVER being Mixed Up and Confused! Amen?

Imagine that, Comforting And EDIFYING children of God, teaching them
"NO hope of Glorification {salvation}" = "you WILL GO into Great Tribulation
and suffer WRATH!" Possibly Even "Taking The Mark of the beast!"

When God Plainly And Clearly TEACHES, By The Holy Spirit:

"For God hath NOT appointed us {HIS Body} To wrath, but to obtain salvation
By our LORD JESUS CHRIST, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with HIM {Glorification}. Wherefore COMFORT
yourselves together, and EDIFY one another, even as also ye do.
(1_Thess 5 : 9-11 KJB!)

Strange is it not, cowards believing God, Comforting And Edifying one another!
Don't "see much of that" in these Divisive Discussions, eh?

Now:
While those who prefer God's Prophecy/Law Program, And
"live BY SIGHT," Are looking, watching, and WAITING for
the Wicked one, the son of Perdition, Great Trib And WRATH...

Rightly Divided (2_Timothy_2 : 15 KJB!) From {RDf} "Things That Differ!":
...Plain And Clear Scriptures Supporting Great GRACE Departure!:

...we {cowards}, who "live BY FAITH, And NOT by sight..."
(2_Corinthians_5 : 7 KJB!), According To The
"Revelation Of The MYSTERY," God's GRACE Program, Are:

Looking, Watching, Waiting For our Blessed Hope, The HOLY ONE:

”...The Coming Of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, and our
gathering together Unto HIM…“ ( 2_Thessalonians 2 : 1! )

"For I reckon that The Sufferings of this present time are not
worthy to be compared with The Glory which shall be revealed
in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for
the manifestation of the sons of God...

...ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of The Spirit, even
we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for The Adoption,
to wit, The Redemption Of our body!" ( Romans_8 : 18, 19, 23! )

"But if we hope for That we see not, then do
we with patience wait for It." ( Romans_8 : 25! )

HOPE For The Redemption Of CHRIST?

"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for The
Coming of our LORD JESUS CHRIST!" ( 1_Corinthians 1 : 7! )

"...And take the helmet of salvation, and The SWORD of The Spirit,
Which Is The WORD of God: praying always with all prayer and
supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all
perseverance and supplication for all saints…" ( Ephesians_6 : 12-18! )

What?:
Watching/persevering The “future age” of Antichrist/Gr8-Trib/Wrath, or The
Present Time “Age of God Pouring Out GRACE Word for infirmities,”
watching for:

CHRIST And Redemption?

"For our conversation [citizenship] is in Heaven; from whence also we
look for The Saviour, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!" ( Philippians_3 : 20! )

Looking for/persevering the Persecutor, or: FOR The SAVIOUR?

To slaves of The LORD JESUS CHRIST:

"...ye also have A Master in Heaven. Continue in prayer, and
watch in the same with thanksgiving; withal praying also for
us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak
The Mystery Of CHRIST…" ( Colossians_4 :1-3! )

our "enemy HATES This MYSTERY Of PURE GRACE"
More than anything, Correct?

“And to wait for His SON from Heaven, Whom He Raised from the
dead, even JESUS, Which Delivered us from the wrath to come!"
( 1_Thessalonians 1 : 10! ) wrath of antichrist to come?

“Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as
do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep, sleep
in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for a helmet, The Hope of Salvation. For God
Hath not Appointed us to wrath, but to obtain Salvation By our
LORD JESUS CHRIST, Who Died for us, that, whether we wake or
sleep, we Should Live Together With HIM! Wherefore COMFORT
yourselves together and EDIFY one another, even as also ye do.”
( 1_Thessalonians 5 : 5-11! ) Why not just OBEY God?

Please advise how we go into Gr8-Trib, When God Has NOT
appointed us to, And Delivered us from, "the wrath to come"?

And, Finally:

“LOOKING for That Blessed Hope, and The Glorious Appearing
of THE Great God and our Saviour JESUS CHRIST!” ( Titus_2 : 13! )

Conclusion:
Are we "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting" for:

THE Wicked one ? OR The HOLY One, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!?

About Colossians_3 : 2: Is your “affection” = Things of “earth” =
antichrist? Or “Things Of Heaven” = The LORD JESUS CHRIST?

Be Blessed!

to be continued in "In/Post-Trib" Problems...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

"In/Post-Trib" Problems:

Precious friend(s), I personally believe The Timing of our
Great GRACE Departure Is Very Important, Because:

(1) Which is Better?:
in/post-trib:
"men" instructing watchmen to look for antichrist, And "preparing" by
Selfishly Hoarding Up seven years of food for famine, to "endure to the
end of Great Tribulation!," Thus, "living BY SIGHT [the law]!"? Or:

pre-trib cowards:
Obeying God, Under HIS Amazing GRACE, "walking By FAITH,
not by sight..." Looking, Watching, And Waiting For

[ our "Blessed HOPE!" ] The LORD JESUS CHRIST!...

...While loving our neighbor, And Selflessly working to use God's
{ Provided } money to "GIVE to them in need," while performing All
"good works" For God, in Order To Be:

►►► "Prepared" For Judgment In PRE-TOJT Departure TO Heaven! ◄◄◄
(1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15! cp 1 Corinthians 4 : 12; Ephesians 4 : 28;
1 Thessalonians 4 : 11-12; Philippians 4 : 19; 2 Corinthians 9 : 8;
Romans 12 : 20!) Amen?

(2) For those who Still Insist on “living BY SIGHT” to SEE anti-christ First,
and "enter" Into Great Tribulation, "under his {Satan's} GOVERNMENTAL
reign," Then do they not have The Following Scriptural "Dilemma"?

Please Prayerfully/Carefully Consider This - From God And HIS Word!:

Today, ALL members of The Body Of CHRIST Are COMMANDED, By God,
To "be subject to governmental authorities, And to pray For them!"
(Romans_13 : 1-7; Titus_3 : 1; 1 Timothy_2 : 1-4).

How does that then "work out" (Disobedience?), for the Body Of CHRIST
"members," who WILL GO Into the Great Tribulation, as "the government
Will Be Under The Control" Of Satan and the Beast! (Revelation_13 : 4)?

Since in/posties “WILL be subject,” guess THEY had better “take his MARK,” Eh?

(3) Borrowed from my Part 16: Great GRACE Departure!

Post Departure "Deception"!: ​

Just AFTER The Resurrection/Departure Of The Body Of CHRIST To HEAVEN!:

Problem:
Those "Left Behind" who "heard and Understood

God's Most Wonderful Gospel Of GRACE" ​

will have NO SECOND CHANCE, According to God's Pure And Holy WORD!:

{Does anyone NOTICE the following DOUBLE DECEPTION!?}:

"Even him {THE Wicked one}, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all
power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness
in them that perish, because they received not The Love Of The Truth, that they
might be saved. And for this cause God Shall Send them Strong Delusion, that
they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who BELIEVED NOT
THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness!" (2_Thessalonians 2 : 9-12)

a) So, how is it that those "Eternally Saved Under GRACE," HAVE TO GO Into
Gr8Trib, and make a Decision "whether or not to take the MARK of the beast," when
God Makes It Very Plain and Clear that it is "those who received not The Love
Of The Truth," and those "who BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH," During HIS
"Dispensation of PURE GRACE," are ALL "damned And perish"?

b) TODAY Is Still THE {Mystery/GRACE} Day of Salvation! And It Is:

SIMPLE As Can Be!​

c) AFTER The Mystery/GRACE Day Is Ended, And God REMOVES ALL "His
ambassadors" {The Body Of CHRIST} (1Co_5 : 20 KJB!), FROM The earth,
THEN, {RDf}

He Resumes HIS "Prophetic Program" for ISRAEL {And the nations}, And
HIS Prophecy of GREAT Tribulation, FOR THEM! {NOT us, who are gone!}

More "study":
God's ALL-Sufficient BLOOD!
God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!"
(1 Thessalonians_5 : 21 KJB!)

Bonus q:
Is it a "good or bad work" to "call God's children names {cowards}"?
(Titus 3 : 2 KJB!)

Be Blessed!

 

[Enoch111]

A Pre-Trib Rapture Is Man's Created "Fiction" Promoted By John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield in His 1909 Reference Bible

More nonsense from someone who can only attack Christians who have passed away and who cannot defend themselves. Shame on you from promoting this NONSENSE. No one should put up with nonsense such as this.

 

[Timtofly]

The will be no Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a "Fictional" teaching of man

When Jesus Christ returns its (The End) Not the beginning of a Millennial Kingdom on Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

You embrace a second of trib, but afraid of a measly 1000 years?

Some in the OT had to wait 3000 years for the Cross, 5000 for the Second Coming. Those in the first century have waited 2000 years for the Second Coming.

Today people totally dismiss the next 1000 years. How impatient and a slap in the face to the rest of the church.

 

[Timtofly]

In the book of John it is stated SIX TIMES that Jesus is coming on the LAST DAY. (Cue the 'Last Day' naysayers -"Aargh! It doesn't mean last day, it means something else!!")

Right, because 1000 does not mean 1000? It means something else?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, we cowardly pre-tribbers Resemble your wonderful remarks :)
Strange is it not, cowards believing God, Comforting And Edifying one another!
Don't "see much of that" in these Divisive Discussions, eh?
Now:
While those who prefer God's Prophecy/Law Program, And
"live BY SIGHT," Are looking, watching, and WAITING for
the Wicked one, the son of Perdition, Great Trib And WRATH...
Please advise how we go into Gr8-Trib, When God Has NOT
appointed us to, And Delivered us from, "the wrath to come"?
And, Finally:
“LOOKING for That Blessed Hope, and The Glorious Appearing
of THE Great God and our Saviour JESUS CHRIST!” ( Titus_2 : 13! )
Conclusion:
Are we "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting" for:

THE Wicked one ? OR The HOLY One, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!?

to be continued in "In/Post-Trib" Problems...

Please see your inconsistency here. You are offended that you are fit into the category of "cowards"--at least you think that. And then you proceed to fit your detractors into the category of *looking for Antichrist, and not Christ!* You put Postribs into the category of *wanting Christians to experience God's wrath.* ;) lol!

I suppose there's no getting around coming across like you are ridiculing the "other side?" And clearly, I'm in the same position. So let's not get offended. Let's just discuss the issues.

As I've been arguing, going through life's experiences in this world, where God judges the wicked, is not a rose garden. It is a prickly path. But this is *not* us experiencing God's wrath towards us. Rather, it is a shared experience in which we are stuck suffering some of God's wrath directed at unbelievers and the wicked. We are here to share God's love and forgiveness for them, if they only repent!

We look for Antichrist not as if we like him or want him. Rather, he represents the end of the long wait in this age, in which the wicked dominates the righteous. The wicked have ruled through the centuries. However, it cannot come to an end until the final apostasy, the apostasy of Antichrist.

And so yes, we do look for Antichrist, but not to love and cherish him, but rather, to dispose of him and all of his ilk. Jesus comes 3.5 years later to destroy him! That's also what Postribs are looking for! ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

"In/Post-Trib" Problems:

Christians look for Antichrist because Paul said that must happen before Christ can come back for his Church--2 Thes 2.1-3. We are also exhorted by Jesus to keep watch out for false Christs and false Prophets, who claim that somehow their peculiar form of Christianity is bringing in the Kingdom immediately.

Pretribs themselves teach that Christ can come "at any moment." This is the kind of Kingdom hysteria that Jesus and Paul ruled out. The Kingdom comes only when the Father determines such. Until such time our job is to remain active Christians in the spiritual Kingdom of God.

The "Great Tribulation" is actually defined by Jesus in Luke 21 as the punishment of the Jewish People in the present age. I don't need to quote it for you. I quote it all the time, and it is simply ignored by most. They don't want to believe what Jesus explicitly said.

No matter, Jesus said that this punishment began to come upon the Jews after they rejected their Messiah. It was to come upon them in Jesus' own generation, which is what happened in 70 AD, when Jerusalem was overcome by the Romans. Jesus warned that the Jewish religious system would be trashed, and the temple demolished. All this literally happened in 70 AD.

Jesus said certain birth pains would happen as signs that this was about to take place, evidence that the Romans were about to become militarily aggressive, and eventually bring God's punishment down upon the ungodly, wicked Jews. This indeed happened in 70 AD, even though Futurists want everything in Bible Prophecy to be about the future. They want the "Abomination of Desolation" to be about the Antichrist, when it was really about the Roman destruction of the temple in 70 AD! The Church Fathers believed this, and Dan 9 explicitly says it--even the general time when it would happen, after the Messiah is "cut off."

And so, Jewish believers were warned by Jesus that they would have to go through this time of Divine Wrath against the Jewish People generally, even though believers were not the object of this wrath. They had to experience the same fate that the Jewish People had to experience, so that believers would be witnesses to how the Jews *should be.*

Jewish Christians experienced the loss of their nation, and the loss of financial security associated with their fields and animals. They went through this period of wrath, but it was *not* God's wrath against them.

This story is given in the Bible also for other nations who would go through the same experience as the Jews. There have now been Christian nations throughout the world, now in the stages of their own apostasy. And Christians have to be forewarned that they will go through troubles in their own countries, as God begins to bring judgment upon their false religion and wickedness.

In my country, the US, we are experiencing all kinds of judgments, from wild fires in the West to hurricanes in the East. We are all going through the plagues of AIDS and the Coronavirus--all 4 stages to date! This isn't being directed against Christians, but it is *not* God's will to deliver us out of this tribulation, since we are called to be witnesses in this fallen world, to hopefully save some, and to properly judge and see the rest removed.

Your arguments, therefore, miss the mark with me. Sorry.

 

[Truth7t7]

More nonsense from someone who can only attack Christians who have passed away and who cannot defend themselves. Shame on you from promoting this NONSENSE. No one should put up with nonsense such as this.

Non-Sense?

Just Factual Truth on Dispensationalism's Founding Father, Adulterer C.I. Scofield.

C.I Scofield died in the sin of Adultery in 1921, being married to a woman who was not his wife (Hettie Van Wart)

(C.I. Scofield) abandoned his wife (Leotine) and two daughters (Abigail) and (Helene) in Kansas, and went to Dallas and pastored a small Church where he met (Hettie Van Wart) 24 years old, (Scofield) at 41 divorced (Leotine) and ran off and married (Hettie) (Adultery)

(Scofield) and (Hettie) produced the 1909 reference bible, with (John N. Darby's) notes in dispensationalism in the margins

Yes (Scofield) died in 1921 while remaining married to (Hettie), while his wife (Leotine) lived (Adultery)

Of course you want to silence this truth, just like the Liberal media desires to silence all conservatives, nothing new

 

[GEN2REV]

Right, because 1000 does not mean 1000? It means something else?

Ohhhh the old cherry-picked PARTIAL-VERSE maneuver.

We're discussing scripture here. It is always best to use scripture to make your points.

(2 Peter 3:8) "... beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

The rest of that verse you are referring to reverses the statement to make it clear that it is stating that God exists outside of time. He created time, space and matter - therefore He exists outside of time. It is not stating that every time the Bible uses the word 'Day' it really means 1000 years.

My scriptural evidence?

Genesis ONE
(Genesis 1:5) "... And the evening and the morning were the first day." One physical day, not a spiritual day, not a cryptic/symbolic day, not 1000 years.

That verse is repeated FIVE TIMES more so there is no chance that it can be debated by those who love to claim creation week actually took 6000 years. (Gen. 1:8, 13, 19, 23, 31)

When Jesus Christ says 'the Last Day' FIVE TIMES in the book of John, He means the Last Day.

How does it support a Pre-Trib Rapture for Jesus to console His beloved that He would be back for them in the last thousand years?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Christians look for Antichrist because Paul said that must happen before Christ can come back for his Church--2 Thes 2.1-3. We are also exhorted by Jesus to keep watch out for false Christs and false Prophets, who claim that somehow their peculiar form of Christianity is bringing in the Kingdom immediately.

Pretribs themselves teach that Christ can come "at any moment." This is the kind of Kingdom hysteria that Jesus and Paul ruled out. The Kingdom comes only when the Father determines such. Until such time our job is to remain active Christians in the spiritual Kingdom of God.

The "Great Tribulation" is actually defined by Jesus in Luke 21 as the punishment of the Jewish People in the present age. I don't need to quote it for you. I quote it all the time, and it is simply ignored by most. They don't want to believe what Jesus explicitly said.

No matter, Jesus said that this punishment began to come upon the Jews after they rejected their Messiah. It was to come upon them in Jesus' own generation, which is what happened in 70 AD, when Jerusalem was overcome by the Romans. Jesus warned that the Jewish religious system would be trashed, and the temple demolished. All this literally happened in 70 AD.

Jesus said certain birth pains would happen as signs that this was about to take place, evidence that the Romans were about to become militarily aggressive, and eventually bring God's punishment down upon the ungodly, wicked Jews. This indeed happened in 70 AD, even though Futurists want everything in Bible Prophecy to be about the future. They want the "Abomination of Desolation" to be about the Antichrist, when it was really about the Roman destruction of the temple in 70 AD! The Church Fathers believed this, and Dan 9 explicitly says it--even the general time when it would happen, after the Messiah is "cut off."

And so, Jewish believers were warned by Jesus that they would have to go through this time of Divine Wrath against the Jewish People generally, even though believers were not the object of this wrath. They had to experience the same fate that the Jewish People had to experience, so that believers would be witnesses to how the Jews *should be.*

Jewish Christians experienced the loss of their nation, and the loss of financial security associated with their fields and animals. They went through this period of wrath, but it was *not* God's wrath against them.

This story is given in the Bible also for other nations who would go through the same experience as the Jews. There have now been Christian nations throughout the world, now in the stages of their own apostasy. And Christians have to be forewarned that they will go through troubles in their own countries, as God begins to bring judgment upon their false religion and wickedness.

In my country, the US, we are experiencing all kinds of judgments, from wild fires in the West to hurricanes in the East. We are all going through the plagues of AIDS and the Coronavirus--all 4 stages to date! This isn't being directed against Christians, but it is *not* God's will to deliver us out of this tribulation, since we are called to be witnesses in this fallen world, to hopefully save some, and to properly judge and see the rest removed.

Your arguments, therefore, miss the mark with me. Sorry.

One could put Jews in the basket of Anti-Christ as in regards to all and anyone who is Anti-Christ.

The Jews were finished 2000 years ago, who ever is claiming to be a Jew from then on to today is nothing but a Kike that's not worthy of anything at all to do with God.

The true worthy people of God were called Israelites by Jesus Christ in fact, remember Nathaniel ? and they were the followers of Jesus Christ who were the first Christians in fact.

Who is worthy to be called a Jew ? well one who truly abides in the OT books and abides in Holy Moses, how many of them are around truly ? 100 ? 1000 ? 144000 ? what has such a one truly got ? well such as they, they have the key to the coming to Jesus if they are genuine in regards to Holy Moses, that's the Key, just as it was back 2000 years ago.
Anyone claiming to be a Jew and is holding onto the Talmud or any such works has no hope at all and never did. they are not worthy at all of any claim to be a Jew regardless. such are cursed !

The whole point is the you must be truly born again and outside of that are lost to the Holy Spirit.
Once one is truly born again you are Saved because you truly know that Jesus Christ is the King of Israel ! Israel means Servants of God.
So if one does not understand that Jesus Christ is the King of Israel then such a one is looking for God, for they are lost and seeking Mans works, that's why they push all the Jew nonsense and anyone who peddles in such nonsense is lost in fact, that's why they are looking for the 2ed coming ? for they do not have 100% faith is Jesus Christ. so they have to add Works to the subject. and start ranting on and on about the so called State that they claim to be Israel, that's blasphemy ! it's clearly not Israel at all, they are truly rejecting Jesus Christ, they clearly can not seen him ! because they are not truly born again in fact, because if they did they would know such a State is folly. even the dedicated Jews know that it's not Israel but they hope it will become Israel, well that's obvious ! because they don't know who Jesus Christ truly is. for if they did they would be truly born again Christians.

The second coming all will be born again, just as anyone who truly has been Saved in the history for 2000 years has.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I have had pre trib claim that no one has been saved and they claim it's only after the trib comes that Salvation comes, so they are truly claiming that Jesus Christ has never came in fact ?
But who is their Lord ? Lord Lord they will say, but Jesus does not know them, for they do not know him.
So what is it that they are doing, well they are serving what the deluded Jews did 2000 years ago and following in mans works being lead astray by the same type of creeps that did what they did to Jesus Christ, for this cursed Mob are that that Jesus warned us about who's Father was of lies and a murderer from the beginning and all carnal people love such. clearly that is exposed in what they did to Jesus Christ. they are one in the same trash. they take pleasure in Malice.

 

[GEN2REV]

More evidence:

Just 2 verses after (2 Peter 3:8) 'the Day of the Lord' is presented describing it as surprising people like a thief in the night. So a thousand year period is going to sneak up on everyone?

Just 2 verses after that, it is repeated as 'the Day of God' and describes the world, and all that is therein, melting with fervent heat. So God will spend a thousand years destroying the earth? Where's the scripture for that? He made it in six days, ya know. It's always easier, and quicker, to scrap something than it is to build it.

As much as there are a million interpreters in the world today to confuse the pants off so many well-meaning Christians, I think it's fair to simply use some common sense when reading scripture and not feel like every single verse is a cryptic message of prophecy that needs to be studied with algorithms and interpreted by the most authoritative leaders of our time.

God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33)