“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

[atpollard]

Jesus lost one of those given Him by the father - He said so Himself.

No man can take us out of His hand by force, but Jesus spews out the lukewarm.

Nothing can separate us from Gods love - it doesn’t say nothing can separate us from God. Indeed the warning from Hebrews 3 is that you can harden your heart from sinning, and depart FROM the living God.
He loved us when we were sinners enough to send Jesus to die for us - thus God loves everyone , unconditionally, even those who end up in hell - but salvation is very conditional.

Eternal life is conditional on continuing to listen to His voice, and continuing to follow Jesus, in Matthew 10:27 and 28.

What’s the good news? If you believe and repent of your sins, (meaning to be sorry for past sins, and change our mind about sin, and decide to live as righteously as possible, and repent when we sin), we avoid Gods wrath and hell.

There is no promise that God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ, as OSAS claims.

We are told the opposite- we are not our own anymore, we’ve been bought with a price - that our service to God is to make our bodies a Holy, living sacrifice- that we have to deny ourself, take up our cross daily and follow Him to be His disciple - told that anyone who puts their hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God - and much more.

Let us all shed a tear for the strawman.
You have killed him.
You have WON the argument that I was not making about who is right.

Your victory would be complete if only you had BOTHERED to answer the question that I had actually asked and told me what is the point is of worshiping a god that is as deceitful in his promises as any sinful man. Unfortunately, the real question that I asked still hangs in the air … unanswered.

[Hint: NOBODY is for, what you are fighting so hard against. I certainly NEVER, NOT EVER, advocated for the possibility that “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”. Nor have I EVER HEARD ANYBODY ADVOCATE FOR THAT BELIEF, except people like you that want to argue against it.]

Tilt away at those windmills, Don Quixote.
You will yet slay them.

 

[Robert Gwin]

They don’t have eyes to see or ears to hear.

To them, God’s law is restrictive rather than protective.

Quite possibly

 

[Curtis]

Let us all shed a tear for the strawman.
You have killed him.
You have WON the argument that I was not making about who is right.

Your victory would be complete if only you had BOTHERED to answer the question that I had actually asked and told me what is the point is of worshiping a god that is as deceitful in his promises as any sinful man. Unfortunately, the real question that I asked still hangs in the air … unanswered.

[Hint: NOBODY is for, what you are fighting so hard against. I certainly NEVER, NOT EVER, advocated for the possibility that “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”. Nor have I EVER HEARD ANYBODY ADVOCATE FOR THAT BELIEF, except people like you that want to argue against it.]

Tilt away at those windmills, Don Quixote.
You will yet slay them.

Ah, you got to use the term STRAW MAN as every Calvinist does. Congratulations.

I answered your question- the Bible, especially Paul, makes it clear that everlasting life can be cancelled by continuing in willful sin, because The one doing that no longer meets the covenant requirements for salvation of having faith and repentance.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus lost one of those given Him by the father - He said so Himself.

It's so funny that rather than reply to this simple statement, at pollard turns to personal attacks. It shows the strength of his argument. That is, it shows he lost the argument.

 

[Curtis]

It's so funny that rather than reply to this simple statement, at pollard turns to personal attacks. It shows the strength of his argument. That is, it shows he lost the argument.

I’ve noticed that it’s either the type of person that is attracted by the fatalist philosophy of Calvinism or that the doctrine affects them, but the majority of them I’ve dealt with are disdainful of anyone that doesn’t fall for their spiel of imposing their false definition of predestination and election doctrines into scripture.

And one of them that used to hang out in the AOL chat room that was particularly nasty and hateful, finally said he hated all non Calvinists, because failure to believe it meant I was the unelected and predestined for hell - and that he is supposed to hate us because in Romans 9 God hated unelected Esau, but loved Jacob - and if God hates us, he’s supposed to also hate us.

And they also have to work the words straw man , exegesis, hermeneutics, and eisegesis into their dialogue - always,

 

[Wrangler]

And they also have to work the words straw man , exegesis, hermeneutics, and eisegesis into their dialogue - always,

Nowadays, it is even simpler. If you don’t agree with me, you must be a racist, sexist, homophobe, Islamophobe and make granny eat dog food.

 

[atpollard]

Ah, you got to use the term STRAW MAN as every Calvinist does. Congratulations.

I answered your question- the Bible, especially Paul, makes it clear that everlasting life can be cancelled by continuing in willful sin, because The one doing that no longer meets the covenant requirements for salvation of having faith and repentance.

What was my question, because we seem to remember it differently if THAT is your answer to it.

[HINT: That DOES NOT answer the question that I asked … which reveals something.]

 

[atpollard]

It's so funny that rather than reply to this simple statement, at pollard turns to personal attacks. It shows the strength of his argument. That is, it shows he lost the argument.

That statement had nothing to do with my question.
It shows that I have no interest in chasing after ARMINIAN bunny trails when MY ‘heart of the matter’ question is completely ignored.

 

[atpollard]

And they also have to work the words straw man , exegesis, hermeneutics, and eisegesis into their dialogue - always,

When the shoe fits so perfectly, it is hard to ignore it.

To skillfully refute what I have never claimed … like “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ” … really is all about a straw man. It would be rude to accuse you of being antichrists deliberately speaking lies to spread discord among the brethern, so we give you the benefit of the doubt that you are Christians engaging in straw man tactics to prop up your biblically weak position.

What other reason could there be for the misrepresentation of Reformed beliefs after 400 years of being corrected that what you claim we believe is NOT what we believe. Start by posting what R.C. Sproul says Reformed Theology believes and refute what he claims we believe and stop posting falsehoods like “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”. When you stop arguing against straw men, we will stop calling them straw men.

HOWEVER I INVITE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG:
Just post a legitimate Reformed (Doctrine of Grace / Calvinist) Theologian that teaches “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ” and I will publicly apologize and ask your forgiveness … as Christian Brothers concerned about my soul. Otherwise, let others judge between us based on your own words and decide who is speaking dishonestly … the strawman poster or the strawman accuser.

 

[Curtis]

Let us all shed a tear for the strawman.
You have killed him.
You have WON the argument that I was not making about who is right.

Your victory would be complete if only you had BOTHERED to answer the question that I had actually asked and told me what is the point is of worshiping a god that is as deceitful in his promises as any sinful man. Unfortunately, the real question that I asked still hangs in the air … unanswered.

[Hint: NOBODY is for, what you are fighting so hard against. I certainly NEVER, NOT EVER, advocated for the possibility that “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”. Nor have I EVER HEARD ANYBODY ADVOCATE FOR THAT BELIEF, except people like you that want to argue against it.]

Tilt away at those windmills, Don Quixote.
You will yet slay them.

Except that MANY MANY people, even some famous preachers, teach that it doesn’t matter how sinfully you live, you can never, ever, lose salvation - I’ve had OSAS types tell me that if Hitler got saved before he did all the pure evil he did, and never repent of it, that Hitler is now in heaven.

I’ve had believers living in sin daily such as drunkenness get angry when I told them that paul warned the brethren that no drunk shall enter into heaven, but they claimed OSAS means they will be saved no matter how they live.

So you can say what you want, for forty years, I’ve seen what is COMMONLY taught and believed - that you can live however you want, even be indistinguishable from a non believer in behavior, and God will welcome you into heaven.

And where does OSAS originate? Straight from calvinism, and TULIP.

Hyper grace types also teach that a believer never has to repent from any sins, which is bogus.

 

[Curtis]

When the shoe fits so perfectly, it is hard to ignore it.

To skillfully refute what I have never claimed … like “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ” … really is all about a straw man. It would be rude to accuse you of being antichrists deliberately speaking lies to spread discord among the brethern, so we give you the benefit of the doubt that you are Christians engaging in straw man tactics to prop up your biblically weak position.

What other reason could there be for the misrepresentation of Reformed beliefs after 400 years of being corrected that what you claim we believe is NOT what we believe. Start by posting what R.C. Sproul says Reformed Theology believes and refute what he claims we believe and stop posting falsehoods like “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”. When you stop arguing against straw men, we will stop calling them straw men.

HOWEVER I INVITE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG:
Just post a legitimate Reformed (Doctrine of Grace / Calvinist) Theologian that teaches “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ” and I will publicly apologize and ask your forgiveness … as Christian Brothers concerned about my soul. Otherwise, let others judge between us based on your own words and decide who is speaking dishonestly … the strawman poster or the strawman accuser.

I don’t care about your Calvinist websites - when preachers routinely teach that you can’t be lost as a believer, because of Perseverance of the saints - that being saved is all Gods choice and there’s no freewill, thus you can’t fall - they are saying you can live however you want - and that falsehood has spread far and wide to groups like southern baptists who don’t claim to follow deformed dogma, but preach OSAS, like Charles Stanley’s teaching on “the carnal Christian” , that you can live completely sinfully in all areas of your life, even to the point of being indistinguishable from a non believer- and still be saved.

This is commonly taught, and just because you state that it’s not what you believe or teach, doesn’t negate the facts about what OSAS has come to mean to the majority of believers today, nor negate that the origins of it are right from John Calvin and other deformed doctrine authors and teachers.

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus lost one of those given Him by the father - He said so Himself.

No man can take us out of His hand by force, but Jesus spews out the lukewarm.

Nothing can separate us from Gods love - it doesn’t say nothing can separate us from God. Indeed the warning from Hebrews 3 is that you can harden your heart from sinning, and depart FROM the living God.
He loved us when we were sinners enough to send Jesus to die for us - thus God loves everyone , unconditionally, even those who end up in hell - but salvation is very conditional.

Eternal life is conditional on continuing to listen to His voice, and continuing to follow Jesus, in Matthew 10:27 and 28.

What’s the good news? If you believe and repent of your sins, (meaning to be sorry for past sins, and change our mind about sin, and decide to live as righteously as possible, and repent when we sin), we avoid Gods wrath and hell.

There is no promise that God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ, as OSAS claims.

We are told the opposite- we are not our own anymore, we’ve been bought with a price - that our service to God is to make our bodies a Holy, living sacrifice- that we have to deny ourself, take up our cross daily and follow Him to be His disciple - told that anyone who puts their hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God - and much more.

Yes paul and others including JESUS gave many warnings and reminders .
Yes they sure did .

 

[Curtis]

Yes paul and others including JESUS gave many warnings and reminders .
Yes they sure did .

What’s sad is that OSAS is the deception about sin that Paul warned about multiple times, is the doctrine of demons warned about, and yet they consider that deception to be sound doctrine.

 

[atpollard]

Except that MANY MANY people, even some famous preachers, teach that it doesn’t matter how sinfully you live, you can never, ever, lose salvation - I’ve had OSAS types tell me that if Hitler got saved before he did all the pure evil he did, and never repent of it, that Hitler is now in heaven.

Names, please. So we can judge credibility. I had someone tell me that aliens hunted dinosaurs to extinctions with laser rifles … that does not make it a generally accepted belief.

Without references or exact quotes, we have only your memory of what you believe you heard SOMEONE say with no possible way to verify anything.

I will present the explanation of Perseverance of the Saints on the OP of a new topic and cite the source so you can verify that is what he taught (he has recently left us to join the great cloud of witnesses). Then you can refute the errors in an actual “Calvinist” teaching by an actual Calvinist.

 

[atpollard]

This is commonly taught …

“It is commonly taught” … the battle cry of Every True Strawman* (with an actual name and example never provided).



*(a pun on the expression ‘no true Scotsman’ … a logical fallacy)

 

[forever]

Matthew 22 [NLT - 'cause it is easy to read]

1 Jesus also told them other parables. He said, 2 “The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. 3 When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come!
4 “So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ 5 But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. 6 Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them.

7 “The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. 8 And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. 9 Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ 10 So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. 12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. 13 Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”​

Look at the CONTEXT.

Verse 2 ... we are comparing the Kingdom of Heaven to "the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son." Start with the stupid obvious:

• King = God the Father
• Son = Jesus, God the Son
• Wedding Feast = "Kingdom of Heaven" = party with God

Verse 3 ... "banquet was ready" is time to gather people to the Feast (Kingdom)

• sure sounds like the arrival of the Messiah as God incarnate to me. It there a better time to start to gather people to the Kingdom than the arrival of the "bridegroom" to gather his bride?
• "sent his servants to notify those who were invited" sounds like John the Baptist calling the 'chosen Nation' (Israel) that God had been inviting to this event since Moses first wrote about it.

verse 4-6 ... describes the Jews that rejected God's invitation.

• killed prophets in the OT
• killed John the Baptist
• killed Jesus
• rejected, beat and killed the Apostles

verse 7 ... God's wrath

• partially fulfilled in the OT (foreshadow and down payment)
• prophetic foreshadow of a major payment of wrath in AD 70
• ultimately to be paid in full when the Son of God returns for Judgement.

verse 8-10 ... Israels rejection will not stop God's plans

• invitation to "Wedding Feast" = "Kingdom of Heaven" = "Heaven" thrown open to all!
• Not just "invited" (Nation of Israel)
• Not just those living "Holy Lives" according to the LAW.
• Gentiles and Sinners are now invited!
• (I think that "invited" is the same as "called" in verse 14.)

verse 11-13 ... the importance of the right clothes:

• so one should make an effort to dress appropriately for an event in the world: a lawyer showing up for court in a tee-shirt and cut-offs would be thrown out of court or arrested for showing contempt for the gathering.
• the man didn't say that he had no "appropriate" clothes to wear when asked by the host ... he had no excuse.
• Christians are clothed in the righteousness of Christ ... so anyone attempting to enter the "Wedding Feast" (Kingdom of Heaven) not clothed 'appropriately' will be thrown out.
• Read Matthew 7: 21-23 [NLT] “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’" ... not wearing the right clothes.

verse 14 ... For many are called, but few are chosen.

• From the context that led up to this verse ...
• "many are called" = the call of the good news (gospel) goes out to many.
  • every time the gospel is preached, many in the crowd have an opportunity to HEAR the truth.
  • MANY are invited to repent, to turn to God and be forgiven.
  • No one is excluded from being invited because of their birth or their sin.
  • Many are called because the servants really have taken to the streets and markets to spread the invitation to the Kingdom of Heaven.
• "few are chosen" = a sad truth that there will not be a need to push and squeeze to enter the Kingdom because so many have accepted the invitation of the King.
  • I am a Particular Baptist, so I have specific beliefs related to the Doctrines of Grace that some will object to, but which I learned from reading scripture before I discovered that it had a name. I will ignore them and focus on a few more "universal" points.
  • The road to hell is wide and path to Heaven is narrow ... many and few. (Matthew 7:13)
    
  • There are many soils for a seed to fall on, but only one is "good soil" that will yield a harvest ... many and few. (Matthew 13:1-23; Mark 4:1-20; Luke 8:1-15).

Many are invited to be saved, but few are those chosen by God [Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB]:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

...not quite ATP , sorry

the parables - inclusive this section -
are about the end of time yes but virtually only about the start of Revelation ,
so not as 'a general denomer of who will ultimately enter heaven or go to hell' ;
therefore "the place of gnashing of teeth" is not 'hell' -
but 'the hellish time during [the firsthalf of-] Revelation

... God explains very very much in prophets about that awful time ,
and he consistently warns for it and exhorts TO ESCAPE it ;
in a prophets chapter is said that
when the relative small group who wíll escape it have been taken ,
the others come and say "but then where will wé go ?"
and its said
"who must die by the sword - to the sword ,
who must die by famine , [etc]"

..and Christ constantly linked back to the prophets wherein that was said
(but the Pharisees have been doctoring the NT ,
hence His fury against those pharisees :
because the latter .. obstructed the direct relation between OT and NT)

 

[atpollard]

...not quite ATP , sorry

Actually, @forever … quite (and you are forgiven)

The “few chosen” in Matthew 22:14 are “chosen” for the “Kingdom of God” and eternal life.

 

[Enoch111]

Except that MANY MANY people, even some famous preachers, teach that it doesn’t matter how sinfully you live, you can never, ever, lose salvation...

I don't believe anyone preaches such nonsense. What many people fail to understand is that there are two issues which must be addressed at the same time: (1) the eternal security of the believer and (2) the requirement for sanctification in those who are justified by grace through faith.

(1) There is absolutely no question that since God justifies the ungodly by His grace, it is solely on the merits of Christ. Therefore salvation is the GIFT of eternal life, and what God gives freely He does not take back. No one can earn salvation, neither can anyone keep himself saved.

(2) At the same time, those who are saved are commanded to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. There is no allowance for a sinful lifestyle. Therefore God deals with sin in the life of a believer, and it can even go as far as "the sin unto death" (premature physical death).

Now it is true that mainline denominations are presently approving of homosexuality, same-sex marriage, etc. But those are not Bible-believing and Bible-preaching churches. They are apostate.

 

[forever]

Actually, @forever … quite (and you are forgiven)

The “few chosen” in Matthew 22:14 are “chosen” for the “Kingdom of God” and eternal life.

Actually, @forever … quite (and you are forgiven)

The “few chosen” in Matthew 22:14 are “chosen” for the “Kingdom of God” and eternal life.

..but why ? isn't that very God-unlike ?
isnt God much greater than but allow a number of souls of the many many ones who are His' ?

im not trolling you atp
but if you think about it , these verses must be about something else as 'eternal life'

in prophets , God rarely - if ever ! - adresses 'souls going to hell' ,
as far as "the adam-type soul" is concerned
(there are also 'corrupt souls' as a group which he don't consider His' as you know)

instead , God is very .. concerned [or perhaps better 'infatuated'] with the theme "endtime",
90% or more of prophets IS about the endtime (Revelation) -- and AFTER :
simply because that is the time when He will restore Paradise
which is in the other reality

... this is what God desires , throughout prophets ,
and therefore , per definition , is what Christ desires , no ?

But there is a problem , a problem will occur in the time of the end : now :
namely , that his souls will have forgotten the existence of paradise in the other reality ,
(I can't tell that still cause i'm a newbie here grin) ,
but in prophets He takes that most serious ,
saying "how my people have forgotten My covenant"
by which he means "have forgotten that they must seek my reality again",
cq search the eden land and his sacred mountain tsiun - in the other reality .

this is what your quote is about ....
because only the , relative small group of 'sons' will leave

.. it does not mean that all the millions of [other] souls will not be saved :
they will -- but áfter the first half of revelation ;
because most believers today think they will be , somehow , saved from the worst ,
[in prophets as "they will say : peace - but there-will-be-no peace')

 

[Curtis]

“It is commonly taught” … the battle cry of Every True Strawman* (with an actual name and example never provided).



*(a pun on the expression ‘no true Scotsman’ … a logical fallacy)

I gave you an example. Charles Stanley, carnal Christian sermon.

Beyond that, I don’t really care what you think.

Don’t forget to say strawman a few more times.

It’s so impressive.