Matthew 28:19 – Trinity corrupted verse

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David in NJ

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(We seem to be covering every topic under the sun here!)

It was God's (Yahweh's) creation, His design, His will and His command that it be created, and, as you quoted from John 1:3, He created it through Jesus, through the agency of His son. As it says in Colossians 1:

Colossians says Jesus Created ALL things - it does not say the Father created all things - The Father is giving to His SON the Authority to create ALL things.

16) For by him/Jesus were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him/Jesus, and for him:
17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. 19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.
(We seem to be covering every topic under the sun here!)

It was God's (Yahweh's) creation, His design, His will and His command that it be created, and, as you quoted from John 1:3, He created it through Jesus, through the agency of His son. As it says in Colossians 1:

Colossians says it was JESUS who created all things and that this pleased the Father = READ it again
 

Ezra

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The trinity doctrine never acknowledges Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.
amazing how do you come to this conclusion ? the trinity doctrine teaches Christ is coming back in the flesh
 

BroRando

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amazing how do you come to this conclusion ? the trinity doctrine teaches Christ is coming back in the flesh

If you worship a trinity doctrine that even mentions Jesus Christ in it. I would like to see. Which trinity doctrine mentions Jesus Christ coming back in the flesh? You state there is, so show it. Thanks.
 

Ezra

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If you worship a trinity doctrine that even mentions Jesus Christ in it. I would like to see. Which trinity doctrine mentions Jesus Christ coming back in the flesh? You state there is, so show it. Thanks.
how else would he come? you cant see a spirit ? every eye shall see him Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen so am i to guess your oneness ?
 

Ezra

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If you worship a trinity doctrine that even mentions Jesus Christ in it. I would like to see. Which trinity doctrine mentions Jesus Christ coming back in the flesh? You state there is, so show it. Thanks.
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
 

BroRando

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Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Are you joking? That's not the trinity doctrine!
 

Illuminator

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What makes you think that nobody noticed?! The Roman Catholic church persecuted a lot of Christians because their beliefs were different to what the Pope and bishops said they should be.
Bringing up past atrocities is a nowhere discussion because sola scripturists like you were just as bad. if not worse.
Protestant Inquisitions: “Reformation” Intolerance & Persecution
You said they believed in the Trinity, which is contrary to the Bible, therefore I consider them to be confused/deceived people.
And you admit you don't know who they are or what they taught. You are not making sense.
Of course not! God's truth is based on God's written word to us - the Bible. That's why I keep quoting from the Bible to support what I understand it to mean. I don't expect anybody to believe a word I say if it is contrary to what the Bible says.
TRANSLATION:
I don't expect anybody to believe a word I say if it is contrary to what I say the Bible says. Your ultimate authority is not the Bible, but your opinion of what the Bible means. This is the same as every heretic who used "Bible alone" to support their heresies, starting with Arius, then Nestorius, then Apollinarius, and virtually every heretic in the patristic period.
And yet Paul said that "This you know, that all who are in Asia turned away from me; of whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes" (2 Timothy 1:15), so being taught by the Apostles doesn't mean that they won't fall away from the truth and into error.
Phygelus and Hermogenes were not Church Fathers, and they turned away from Paul. Using 2 Timothy 1:15 to disprove the ECF is an act of desperation.
Read Revelation chapters 2 and 3 to see what Jesus said about the early Church. Revelation 2:14-15 shows that there were some Christians who held to wrong teachings. Paul wrote that there will be a falling away from the truth - he was right.
Paul wrote much about end times and the anti-Christ, but he never said the gates of hell would prevail over the Church. That's another one of your man made traditions in direct contradiction the promise of Jesus Himself.
 
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Ezra

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Are you joking? That's not the trinity doctrine!
am i joking no i am not most every major denom teaches the trimity father son holyghost are you apostolic Pentecost really not sure you know what your talking about ?
 

Illuminator

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Because it's a misleading translation (translated by Trinity believers who missed out 'a') and it is inconsistent with other verses of Scripture if it truly was "the Word was God".
It's becoming clearer now.

The New World Translation (NWT) is produced by the Watch Tower Society, the parent organization of the Jehovah’s Witnesses (JWs). The New Testament (or “Christian Greek Scriptures,” as they call it) was first produced in 1950, followed by the Old Testament (“Hebrew Scriptures”), produced progressively in five volumes from 1953-1960. Modern versions of the NWT contain the entire Bible in one volume.

The NWT is a travesty of the Scriptures for two main reasons:

First, of the five men who comprised the translation committee–Nathan Knorr, Fred Franz, Albert Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel–Franz is the only one who had any knowledge at all of the biblical languages. Franz studied Greek for only two years (not biblical Greek, though), and he was allegedly self-taught in Hebrew. The other four men completely lack any credentials that would qualify them as competent biblical scholars.

Second, the text of the NWT is distorted and twisted in a manner to suit the erroneous beliefs of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Numerous examples could be cited. For instance, John 1:1, in the NWT, reads that the Word was ” a god” (rather than “God”) because JWs deny the divinity of Christ. Similarly, in Colossians 1:15-20, the NWT inserts the word “other” into the text four times because JWs believe that Christ was created. Also, in Matthew 26:26, the NWT reads “this means my body” (rather than “this is my body”) because JWs deny the Real Presence.

Reputable Catholic and Protestant biblical scholars alike reject the NWT as being biased, unreliable, and unscholarly. People who open their doors to the JWs ought to be warned that the NWT is not a safe or reliable translation of God’s Word.
What can you tell me about the New World Translation? | Catholic Answers
Five Questions for the Jehovah’s Witnesses | Catholic Answers
 

Illuminator

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TRANSLATION COMMITTEE
clowns.jpg

ARE YOU BLIND? ITS RIGHT THERE IN THE ORIGINAL 1950'S GREEK!​
 
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David in NJ

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Are you joking? That's not the trinity doctrine!

Dear BroRando,
Those of us who have been Born Again by the Holy Spirit through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ know who God is because He revealed Himself to us through His Word and His Spirit.
It is this Great Joy that wells up from inside us through His revealed knowledge of scripture, opening and freeing our minds to understand and know His Truth.
We do not put our trust in man concerning these things, neither did we discover these things on our own but the Father chose us to know Him through His Son revealed by His Spirit directly into our spirit.

Pray to the Lord Jesus Christ, open your heart to Him. He will not lie to you or mislead you.
PEACE
 

keithr

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Colossians says it was JESUS who created all things and that this pleased the Father = READ it again
I know that's what it says. I quoted the verses to you! Perhaps you should read again what I wrote?!
 

keithr

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Bringing up past atrocities is a nowhere discussion because sola scripturists like you were just as bad. if not worse.
Protestant Inquisitions: “Reformation” Intolerance & Persecution
So you agree then that people noticed the falling away from the truth?!

And you admit you don't know who they are or what they taught. You are not making sense.
I said I didn't know who you were referring to by the "ECF". WDYUWIS?

TRANSLATION:
I don't expect anybody to believe a word I say if it is contrary to what I say the Bible says. Your ultimate authority is not the Bible, but your opinion of what the Bible means.
No, I quote some verses and explain what I think they mean. It's the verses that are the 'ultimate authority'; it is up to you to decide whether or not you agree with my interpretation. I'm just sharing my understanding in the hope it will help me and others to correctly understand God's word.

Phygelus and Hermogenes were not Church Fathers, and they turned away from Paul. Using 2 Timothy 1:15 to disprove the ECF is an act of desperation.
You're misunderstanding what I wrote again (no wonder you also misunderstand the Bible!). I commented on that verse, saying it showed that "being taught by the Apostles doesn't mean that they won't fall away from the truth and into error". The verse is an example of people being taught by Paul who then turned away from him ("all who are in Asia turned away from me"). I said nothing about "Church Fathers", nor did I comment on the two people who he named.

Paul wrote much about end times and the anti-Christ, but he never said the gates of hell would prevail over the Church. That's another one of your man made traditions in direct contradiction the promise of Jesus Himself.
I've no idea of what you are saying there! I've never mentioned anything about 'gates of hell prevailing over the Church'.
 
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keithr

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It's becoming clearer now.

The New World Translation (NWT) is produced by the Watch Tower Society, the parent organization of the Jehovah’s Witnesses (JWs).
I never mentioned anything about the NWT or Jehovah’s Witnesses. You're jumping to conclusions without any evidence! (And no, I am not a JW.)
 
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Illuminator

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From the OP:

There is now even better proof than this though. It was known by the Catholic Church that the Jews had preserved a copy of the original Gospel of Matthew in the Hebrew language. The fact that it exists is proof that God wanted it preserved. There have been many attempts to destroy the credibility of this very valuable Hebrew Gospel, because it is the only existing manuscript that proves Matthew 28:19 did not originally contain the Trinitarian baptismal formula. Catholics and Protestants have no other reason to cast doubt on the validity of this manuscript. In fact, early writers claim that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew:
False claim. There are no original manuscripts. They don't exist. What we have are extant copies meticulously preserved by scribes and later canonized. This "this very valuable Hebrew Gospel" is a polemical treatise written by a Jew in the 14th century, if you bother to read the introduction of your own links:Hebrew-Gospel-of-MATTHEW-by-George-Howard-Part-One.pdf (kingdomofyisrael.org)

A complete Hebrew Text of Matthew appeared in the body of a fourteenth century Jewish polemical treatise entitled Even Bohan (JrTO l~, ''The Touchstone"). The author, Shem-Tob ben-Isaac ben-Shaprut (sometimes called Ibn Shaprot), was born in Tudela in Castile in the middle of the fourteenth century. He later settled in Tarazona in Aragon where as a physician he practiced medicine. There he completed the Even Bohan in 1380. He revised his work several times-in 1385, around 1400, and even later-by adding another five books or sections to the original twelve.1 Most manuscripts contain either fifteen or sixteen chapters, not always arranged in the same order. Of the original books, usually the first deals with the principles of the Jewish faith, the next nine deal with passages in the Bible that were disputed by Jews and Christians, the eleventh discusses haggadic sections in the Talmud used by Christians or Jewish proselytes to Christianity, and the twelfth (sometimes thirteenth) contains the entire Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew, with polemical comments by Shem-Tob interspersed throughout the text. Part one of the present volume contains the Hebrew text of Matthew found in Shem-Tob's treatise. A critical apparatus, noting manuscript variation, accompanies the text, and an English translation appears on facing pages. The polemical comments of Shem-Tob have been eliminated so that the gospel text may run continuously from beginning to end without interruption. Part two contains an analysis of Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew, including its place within the traditional Hebrew/Aramaic-Matthew tradition, and a literary, textual, and theological profile.
Your "proof" is shaky at best. A Jew in the 14th century is not an authority on the Trinity, since they flatly deny it. The real error we need to examine are the false teachings of Oneness Pentecostalism. Personally, I don't have a problem with "Jesus only" baptism, if it is understood that "Jesus" encompasses His oneness with the Father, and the Person of the Holy Spirit, that should be a given. But is that the case with you? If not, you are left with re-defining who Jesus is. Heretics tried it, and it took 4 centuries and as many councils to straighten out the mess they caused. That's why the full Trinity doctrine proclaimed at the Council of Chalcedon is so complex, it's because of the heretics. The first recourse that self-proclaimed experts (with fake degrees) have is to reject the Council of Nicae with LIES about Constantine.

The Nicene Creed is the accepted norm on this forum (at least it used to be). I can't see how anybody can reject this creed and claim to be a Christian at the same time.
 

Illuminator

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So you agree then that people noticed the falling away from the truth?!
People only noticed the falling away from the truth in the middle of a 16th century revolt. Common sense says this is not a reliable source. There is no historical evidence of doctrinal error formally being taught, (excluding the reformers politics) but plenty of evidence of stupid people doing bad things. You refuse to make the distinction.
I said I didn't know who you were referring to by the "ECF". WDYUWIS?
Is said some the Early Church Fathers (ECF) were taught directly by the Apostles, and you replied with 2 Timothy 1:15 to discredit them, a non-sequitur fallacy.
No, I quote some verses and explain what I think they mean. It's the verses that are the 'ultimate authority'; it is up to you to decide whether or not you agree with my interpretation. I'm just sharing my understanding in the hope will help me and others to correctly understand God's word.
The Bible is/was never intended to be a do-it-yourself manual.
TEXT without CONTEXT is a PRETEX.
The BIBLE without the CHURCH is just an EXCUSE.

You're misunderstanding what I wrote again (no wonder you also misunderstand the Bible!). I commented on that verse, saying it showed that "being taught by the Apostles doesn't mean that they won't fall away from the truth and into error". The verse is an example of people being taught by Paul who then turned away from him ("all who are in Asia turned away from me"). I said nothing about "Church Fathers", nor did I comment on the two people who he named.
You're misunderstanding what I wrote again (no wonder you also misunderstand the Bible!). If an ECF fell into error, they wouldn't called a Church Father in the first place. Nobody is saying the ECF writings are at par with Scripture, but their writings give us rather good glimpses into what the early church believed and practiced. You bury your head in the sand every time they are mentioned because none of them were Protestants.

I've no idea of what you are saying there! I've never mentioned anything about 'gates of hell prevailing over the Church'.
But you assert the historic Church fell away, contrary to God's promises. We believe in faith that the Church is infallible and indefectible, based on many biblical indications. It is theoretically possible (speaking in terms of philosophy or epistemology) that the Church could stray and have to be rejected, but the Bible rules that out. We believe in faith that it has not and will not.

Protestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.

We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.
 

Ronald Nolette

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It is Yahweh speaking. His redeemer could be refering to to Israel's redeemer (as the International Standard Version translates it - "the King of Israel and its Redeemer". Yahweh is both Israel's king and redeemer.


Yahweh is saying in Isaiah 44:6 that He (Yahweh) is the only almighty God. He is the first in time and in rank - nobody is greater than Him. As He said a little earlier, in Isaiah 43:10, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

Revelation 1:
17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

That is clearly Jesus speaking. God, Yahweh, has always been immortal and cannot die. Jesus was the first (in time and importance) of God's creation, and last direct creation of God, so maybe that is what Jesus meant by saying he was the first and last.


Jesus is God's son, and he now has the same immortal divine nature as God, but that does not mean that God is a Trinity of persons. God is God, His son is His son. Christians too are promised to be given the same divine nature and to become adopted sons of God - just because Jesus became His firstborn son before us doesn't mean that God is made up of three persons.

The resurrected Jesus, sat down at God's right hand, refers to God as his God, so clearly Jesus still denies that he is part of a Trinity God.

Keep telling yopurself these things. It won't make them any truer but you can keep pretending God doesn't know grammar and doesn't know words used.

but for the public record- Isaiah 44:6 2 people are speaking, there is no other way to define it unless you believe all rules of grammar do not apply.

And Rev. 1? Jesus knew what first and last meant, Jesus was never created. He knew that first and last is the exact same as Is. 44. If Jesus meant He was the first and most important, why didn't He say so and not have to have us rely on your allegorical additions? Jesus died physically because He came to take on human flesh to die for our sins, but He did not die spiritually!

Yes Jesus is Gods Son. He is also just as divine as His Father is. He existed as God in eternity past as the Scriptures say. He is called God as the scriptures say. He is equal to God as the Scriptures say. that does not make Him Goed the Father, He is God the Son.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Because it's a misleading translation (translated by Trinity believers who missed out 'a') and it is inconsistent with other verses of Scripture if it truly was "the Word was God".


Because I believe Jesus, not what the Jews mistakenly thought.


Because it's another poor translation (I covered this in a previous post) - 'God' should be 'who'. Why would God need to be justified, seen of angels and received up into glory (received by who)?


Prove it is a misleading translation. YOu make an accusation , now back it up with evidence. and if the "a" is required, it still makes Jesus a God. and if there is onlyh one true god then Jesus has to be a false God! You cannot get around that with any fancy logic.

It was not the Jews who called Jesus equal to God, but John the Apostle, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit! Was the Holy Spirit wrong? Are you saying that John, in commenting on why the Jews sought to kill Jesus was wrong in his commentary?

You did not cover it in a poswt to me. god was manifest in the flesh- it doesn't matter why anyone thinks why? It is what God say8s and had inspired!