What are the "Last Days?"

[Randy Kluth]

I heard the term "last days," and see a basic confusion with many who are trying to understand this term. What are the "last days," if they were designated as such in the apostles' time, and are also used for the end of the age?

Really, I think we need to understand that the term often reflects the fall of a civilization, such as when Israel declines as a nation of God, and is close to national judgment. It involves a state of apostasy from the true faith, and is accompanied by an imminent judgment of God against that nation. That is why it is termed "the last days," because a nation is close to coming to an end.

The entire NT era is, as I often point out, a period of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People. In Jesus time, Israel was coming to an end. It was the "last days" for Israel in the present era. They were engaged in the worst kind of apostasy--the rejection of their own Messiah, and the rejection of his eternal atonement for their sins. They were insistent in living in their own sin nature, independent of God, and covering it up with a facade of allegiance to the Law of Moses.

Their judgment would come about 40 years after Jesus was crucified by the Romans, in 70 AD. Clearly, those were the "last days" for Israel, even though there remains a future Hope for Israel, when Messiah returns.

So Israel came into a time of punishment called "the Great Tribulation." They were destroyed as a nation by the Romans, and sent into an age-long exile called the "Jewish Diaspora." Some like to identify the "Great Tribulation" as only 3.5 years at the end of the age, when Antichrist rules, persecutes the Church, and brings all kinds of calamities upon the earth from God.

But the truth is, the "Great Tribulation" began with Israel's "last days," when Israel fell into great apostasy and lawlessness, and came under an age-long period of judgment. During this same period, the Gospel message has been extended to non-Jewish nations, to enable them to learn the same lessons that Israel has learned, with the same results. Nations rise, become Christian, and then they backslide, sin, and come under judgment. Their "last days" ensue.

I hope this helps you understand why, biblically, the "last days" started back in the time of Israel's Roman judgment and continues until today? It isn't just the Rule of Antichrist, or an end-time period in which plagues are sent out into the earth. No, this is an age-long process in which nations hear the Gospel, respond, and then ultimately fall away, with few remaining to be faithful to the Lord.

 

[Keraz]

I disagree.
The 'Last days' are the short; about 10 to 15 years, of the end of this Church age.
It will commence with the Sixth Seal event, a worldwide disaster of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. This will set the scene for the prophesied things that must happen, leading up to the glorious return of Jesus; to reign on earth for the next 1000 years.
For sure; Jesus cannot Return to the world as it is now.

 

[Ezra]

The 'Last days' are the short; about 10 to 15 years, of the end of this Church age.

we been in the last days since Christ ascended why stand here gazing his coming back again there should be no time line from man. its all in His timing . we just have to be ready

 

[Ezra]

Jesus cannot Return to the world as it is now.

why not? this world will be purged with fire after the church is took out..

 

[FHII]

Randy, its an interesting topic. But I don't think its an easy answer. I appreciate what you said about the "last days" for Israel. It kind of was at the time, but remember that Jesus gave a prophecy that the olive tree would come back (perhaps 1948 or so when israel became a nation again). It is thought that when it does, the generation to see it would be the last.

There are also prophecies in the book of Revelation which talk about a 1000 years of Satan being bound before one last battle which leads to the end with him being cast into the lame of fire and then final peace.

There is also the age of the apostles which is thought to end with John in 92 AD or so... Paul said he thanks God that he chose the apostles last. So maybe it ended with John or maybe the apostles are still being called.

Then again, we can take it personally. Our life and world is supposed to end when we come to Christ.

Just raising thoughts and questions...

 

[Dave Watchman]

I heard the term "last days," and see a basic confusion with many who are trying to understand this term. What are the "last days," if they were designated as such in the apostles' time, and are also used for the end of the age?

Really, I think we need to understand that the term often reflects the fall of a civilization, such as when Israel declines as a nation of God, and is close to national judgment. It involves a state of apostasy from the true faith, and is accompanied by an imminent judgment of God against that nation. That is why it is termed "the last days," because a nation is close to coming to an end.

The entire NT era is, as I often point out, a period of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People. In Jesus time, Israel was coming to an end. It was the "last days" for Israel in the present era. They were engaged in the worst kind of apostasy--the rejection of their own Messiah, and the rejection of his eternal atonement for their sins. They were insistent in living in their own sin nature, independent of God, and covering it up with a facade of allegiance to the Law of Moses.

Their judgment would come about 40 years after Jesus was crucified by the Romans, in 70 AD. Clearly, those were the "last days" for Israel, even though there remains a future Hope for Israel, when Messiah returns.

So Israel came into a time of punishment called "the Great Tribulation." They were destroyed as a nation by the Romans, and sent into an age-long exile called the "Jewish Diaspora." Some like to identify the "Great Tribulation" as only 3.5 years at the end of the age, when Antichrist rules, persecutes the Church, and brings all kinds of calamities upon the earth from God.

But the truth is, the "Great Tribulation" began with Israel's "last days," when Israel fell into great apostasy and lawlessness, and came under an age-long period of judgment. During this same period, the Gospel message has been extended to non-Jewish nations, to enable them to learn the same lessons that Israel has learned, with the same results. Nations rise, become Christian, and then they backslide, sin, and come under judgment. Their "last days" ensue.

I hope this helps you understand why, biblically, the "last days" started back in the time of Israel's Roman judgment and continues until today? It isn't just the Rule of Antichrist, or an end-time period in which plagues are sent out into the earth. No, this is an age-long process in which nations hear the Gospel, respond, and then ultimately fall away, with few remaining to be faithful to the Lord.

Your note is nice to read, it's relaxing.

Like John's:

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.​

We're in the last hour, many last hours. Many antichrists have come, Antichrist is coming and Antichrist is here. I wonder if John wrote that before Revelation?

Maybe the "last days" is more of a vague example of Biblical terminology. I think it would depend on context, how it was used. I don't think you could associate an exact prophetic time period to it. Like how you would when power is given to God's Two Witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1260 days. Or the 7 and 62 heptads until Messiah the Prince. Maybe you could say that the last heptad, Daniel's 70th week was/is the "last days" of the prophecy.

I'm the rare one that can say the last days were then and now. When Jesus said, early in Mark, that the "time" is fulfilled, I can say that that same "time" has been fulfilled again. With the "time" being specific to the Daniel 9 specifications. The 7 and 62 heptads. There's two timelines to do with these heptads.

The first one was from 27AD to 34AD, with Jesus putting an end to sacrifice in the middle of the week on April 7 30AD. It was rooted in the Artaxerxes decree of 457BC, and confirmed by Jesus' Passover count based on the conjunction of the moon. The Old Time Jews were doing it Babylonian style one day late on Friday that year. The big story culmination was in the middle of that week, + 40 days.

The second one runs from January 2019 to the completion of 2025, and just into the first month of January 2026. It's rooted in two decrees. One by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1535, and another by the Knesset Jews themselves in January 1969. These were 62 and 7 weeks apart. 2019 would have been the equivalent to 27AD when Jesus read from the Isaiah 61 Scroll declaring the favourable "year" of the Lord. Like what Isaac Newton said about the compass of Jubilee. The seven sevens pointing to the 50th year.

So if this same Jesus returns in like manner, as the first century disciples had seen Him go, (in the middle of the last heptad +40 days), something might also be starting soon. We could be getting really close, like close to a year before it happens. Using the first example as a template, I doubt we will continue normally all the way to the end of the "week".

Bear in mind, I always think that the Lord is coming soon, so I always default to the earliest date. Even so, Paul's sudden destruction could begin, and we might find ourselves plunged into a hard and quick countdown to the actual second coming. It might be like a day of vengeance, a year of recompense, for the cause of Zion.

With we being the Holy Mt Zion now.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I disagree.
The 'Last days' are the short; about 10 to 15 years, of the end of this Church age.
It will commence with the Sixth Seal event, a worldwide disaster of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. This will set the scene for the prophesied things that must happen, leading up to the glorious return of Jesus; to reign on earth for the next 1000 years.
For sure; Jesus cannot Return to the world as it is now.

Both Isaiah and Micah referred to the exaltation of the "mountain of the house of the Lord in the last days." Since the temple itself was destroyed 2000 years ago, the "last days" had to begin with the destruction of the temple. God's Law, which had originated out of that temple, would somehow be distributed among the nations. This in effect renders it a new Law, but nevertheless originating out of the old Law.

The "Last Days" began with the crucifixion of Christ, marking Jerusalem as the very last place that could ever be depicted as the "mountain of the house of the Lord." We cannot allegorize it, since it was a real geographical, historical reference in its day.

Peter's reference in Acts 2 to the endtime outpouring of the Spirit also referred to the time around when Jesus came. It cannot refer to the end of the age.

Paul in 2 Tim 3.1 referred to the "last days" as they existed in his own days. Heb 1.2 does, as well. James 5.3, as well. 2 Pet 3.3, as well. What this means is that most of the apostles and NT authors viewed the "Last Days" as beginning in their own time.

1 John 2.18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

 

[Timtofly]

If time is a week to God, the first 4 days were before the Cross. The last 2 days have been since the Cross. The Sundays, Lord's Days, started the week, and will finish the week.

2019 was the opening of the Seals, but such things seem to have just past most humans by as yet another day on earth. The church is still growing and the days of the GT keep getting shorter. Most have just complained about covid messing up their lives, while tribulation goes on strong all around the world. Some will wake up when the death toll reaches over a billion. This last day is about to wrap up fast.

 

[Enoch111]

What are the "last days," if they were designated as such in the apostles' time, and are also used for the end of the age?

1. The last days began with the first coming of Christ. So the last days are for at least 2,000 years, but go well past the present time to the redemption and restoration of Israel on earth including the Millennial Kingdom. How do we know this?
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (Heb 1:1,2)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (Isa 2:2)
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. (Micah 4:1)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (Acts 2:17) [Note: This prophecy has a double application: (1) on the day of Pentecost and (2) when God pours out His Spirit upon the future believing remnant of Israel gathered to Jerusalem after the second coming of Christ]

2. Since we are living in the last days -- actually "the latter times" of the last days -- we are told that there will be a Great Apostasy at this time: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (2 Tim 4:1) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come... Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts (2 Tim 3:1; 2 Pet 3:3).

So the last days go well beyond end time prophecies on either side. For God, the last days began when His only begotten Son was incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth, the King/Messiah of Israel, and the Savior of the world. They will end when Christ establishes His visible and eternal Kingdom on earth and all the kingdoms of the world become subservient to Him.

 

[Marty fox]

I heard the term "last days," and see a basic confusion with many who are trying to understand this term. What are the "last days," if they were designated as such in the apostles' time, and are also used for the end of the age?

Really, I think we need to understand that the term often reflects the fall of a civilization, such as when Israel declines as a nation of God, and is close to national judgment. It involves a state of apostasy from the true faith, and is accompanied by an imminent judgment of God against that nation. That is why it is termed "the last days," because a nation is close to coming to an end.

The entire NT era is, as I often point out, a period of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People. In Jesus time, Israel was coming to an end. It was the "last days" for Israel in the present era. They were engaged in the worst kind of apostasy--the rejection of their own Messiah, and the rejection of his eternal atonement for their sins. They were insistent in living in their own sin nature, independent of God, and covering it up with a facade of allegiance to the Law of Moses.

Their judgment would come about 40 years after Jesus was crucified by the Romans, in 70 AD. Clearly, those were the "last days" for Israel, even though there remains a future Hope for Israel, when Messiah returns.

So Israel came into a time of punishment called "the Great Tribulation." They were destroyed as a nation by the Romans, and sent into an age-long exile called the "Jewish Diaspora." Some like to identify the "Great Tribulation" as only 3.5 years at the end of the age, when Antichrist rules, persecutes the Church, and brings all kinds of calamities upon the earth from God.

But the truth is, the "Great Tribulation" began with Israel's "last days," when Israel fell into great apostasy and lawlessness, and came under an age-long period of judgment. During this same period, the Gospel message has been extended to non-Jewish nations, to enable them to learn the same lessons that Israel has learned, with the same results. Nations rise, become Christian, and then they backslide, sin, and come under judgment. Their "last days" ensue.

I hope this helps you understand why, biblically, the "last days" started back in the time of Israel's Roman judgment and continues until today? It isn't just the Rule of Antichrist, or an end-time period in which plagues are sent out into the earth. No, this is an age-long process in which nations hear the Gospel, respond, and then ultimately fall away, with few remaining to be faithful to the Lord.

I believe that the last days were the last days of the Old Testament days the last days of the temple and sacrificial age

 

[Keraz]

People today are mostly in denial of what the future may hold for them. Worldwide natural disasters and manmade problems seem to be proliferating with no easing up or solutions in sight. It may just be possible for mankind to overcome its plagues, economic woes, resource shortages and rebuild earthquake damage, etc, but a prospective World War 3, starting in the Middle East, has the potential to practically wipe us out and pollute large areas of the earth.

A lot of people do not want to be concerned about the future, it’s hard enough just to get by without any extra worry and it is right that we must carry on doing what we have to for survival. Those whom God has called for a specific task must continue to do it and we all need to plan and provide for the future as though things will continue as usual. It is a mistake to sell up and withdraw to a hideout, as many failed doomsday proponents have shown.

However, ‘You, My friends are not in the dark’ about end times events. ‘It is ‘While they are saying: All is peaceful: sudden destruction will come upon them’. 1 Thess. 5:3-4 ‘My friends’- those who love the Lord and keep His commandments. Luke 21:34-36

‘they/them’- godless people, who don’t know that God Himself will act against them. Micah 4:11-12

The Bible [and the Apocrypha] have a very large amount of unfulfilled prophecy, that is not there for no reason; God expects us to take note of what He has told us through His prophets. Because so many incorrect ideas and notions about what God has planned abound in the church and in the secular world, it is difficult for us to overcome them and just simply believe the literal words of the prophets. Excepting for the obvious metaphors, which are used to describe events and scenes unknown in their time. It isn't too hard to discern their meanings.


With the current world as it is, then we must expect something dramatic to change the situation and commence the end times events. The Lord had told us, through the ancient prophets, what this will be – in over 100 prophecies, of the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a judgement of fire that destroys His enemies.

We are clearly informed of the nature and extent of this event, it will be a gigantic fireball exploded from the sun – a Coronal Mass Ejection of superheated particles that will envelope the earth and literally cause all the prophesied disasters. But there will be plenty of survivors, just a matter of staying under shelter until the CME passes and fervent prayers for the Lord’s protection. Acts 2:21


The so called prophecy gurus, don’t have the truth and while their motivation is money and adulation, God will not enlighten them. Demonic entities can perform certain signs and wonders and I guess they know what the Bible says, therefore they may give mankind information or dis-information, for their own reasons.

So, people are now without any real idea of how and when this huge threat will impact their existence.

The fulfilment of the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath is ‘the Elephant in the Room’, the event that ‘comes like a thief’, but we who ‘are His friends’ can and should know of what the Lord has planned for His creation.

 

[Marty fox]

I disagree.
The 'Last days' are the short; about 10 to 15 years, of the end of this Church age.
It will commence with the Sixth Seal event, a worldwide disaster of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. This will set the scene for the prophesied things that must happen, leading up to the glorious return of Jesus; to reign on earth for the next 1000 years.
For sure; Jesus cannot Return to the world as it is now.

Then why did the New Testament writers say that they were in the last days or even John say he was in the last hour?

 

[Marty fox]

I heard the term "last days," and see a basic confusion with many who are trying to understand this term. What are the "last days," if they were designated as such in the apostles' time, and are also used for the end of the age?

Really, I think we need to understand that the term often reflects the fall of a civilization, such as when Israel declines as a nation of God, and is close to national judgment. It involves a state of apostasy from the true faith, and is accompanied by an imminent judgment of God against that nation. That is why it is termed "the last days," because a nation is close to coming to an end.

The entire NT era is, as I often point out, a period of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People. In Jesus time, Israel was coming to an end. It was the "last days" for Israel in the present era. They were engaged in the worst kind of apostasy--the rejection of their own Messiah, and the rejection of his eternal atonement for their sins. They were insistent in living in their own sin nature, independent of God, and covering it up with a facade of allegiance to the Law of Moses.

Their judgment would come about 40 years after Jesus was crucified by the Romans, in 70 AD. Clearly, those were the "last days" for Israel, even though there remains a future Hope for Israel, when Messiah returns.

So Israel came into a time of punishment called "the Great Tribulation." They were destroyed as a nation by the Romans, and sent into an age-long exile called the "Jewish Diaspora." Some like to identify the "Great Tribulation" as only 3.5 years at the end of the age, when Antichrist rules, persecutes the Church, and brings all kinds of calamities upon the earth from God.

But the truth is, the "Great Tribulation" began with Israel's "last days," when Israel fell into great apostasy and lawlessness, and came under an age-long period of judgment. During this same period, the Gospel message has been extended to non-Jewish nations, to enable them to learn the same lessons that Israel has learned, with the same results. Nations rise, become Christian, and then they backslide, sin, and come under judgment. Their "last days" ensue.

I hope this helps you understand why, biblically, the "last days" started back in the time of Israel's Roman judgment and continues until today? It isn't just the Rule of Antichrist, or an end-time period in which plagues are sent out into the earth. No, this is an age-long process in which nations hear the Gospel, respond, and then ultimately fall away, with few remaining to be faithful to the Lord.

How about going deeper and thinking about what John meant by saying that he was in the last hour Randy?

This is why I think it’s about the end of the temple and sacrificial age the end of the Old Testament era

The Jews didn’t realize and rejected it so God put an end to it

 

[Keraz]

Then why did the New Testament writers say that they were in the last days or even John say he was in the last hour?

Obviously it wasn't the actual 'last days, or hour'. The world has carried on for nearly 2000 years past then.
John was referring to God's timing. Which we can work out from the information given in the Bible.

It is us; today who are very close to the commencement of the last days events. Known from the Prophetic Word and from the current world situation. Like it or not, WE will see it all, as our Redemption draws nigh.

 

[amigo de christo]

So the post is called what are the last days . the answer , THESE ARE THE LAST DAYS .
Let all be watching , lest that day overtakes any as a thief .
Be prepared to lose all for the glorious sake of JESUS and count it only gain to do so .
LET all praise and thank the glorious Lord .

 

[Marty fox]

Obviously it wasn't the actual 'last days, or hour'. The world has carried on for nearly 2000 years past then.
John was referring to God's timing. Which we can work out from the information given in the Bible.

It is us; today who are very close to the commencement of the last days events. Known from the Prophetic Word and from the current world situation. Like it or not, WE will see it all, as our Redemption draws nigh.

It obviously wasn’t the last days or the last hour of the earth but history shows us that it was the last days and hours or the temple age.

Remember they were all inspired to write by the Holy Spirit

 

[Curtis]

Your note is nice to read, it's relaxing.

Like John's:

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.​

We're in the last hour, many last hours. Many antichrists have come, Antichrist is coming and Antichrist is here. I wonder if John wrote that before Revelation?

Maybe the "last days" is more of a vague example of Biblical terminology. I think it would depend on context, how it was used. I don't think you could associate an exact prophetic time period to it. Like how you would when power is given to God's Two Witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1260 days. Or the 7 and 62 heptads until Messiah the Prince. Maybe you could say that the last heptad, Daniel's 70th week was/is the "last days" of the prophecy.

I'm the rare one that can say the last days were then and now. When Jesus said, early in Mark, that the "time" is fulfilled, I can say that that same "time" has been fulfilled again. With the "time" being specific to the Daniel 9 specifications. The 7 and 62 heptads. There's two timelines to do with these heptads.

The first one was from 27AD to 34AD, with Jesus putting an end to sacrifice in the middle of the week on April 7 30AD. It was rooted in the Artaxerxes decree of 457BC, and confirmed by Jesus' Passover count based on the conjunction of the moon. The Old Time Jews were doing it Babylonian style one day late on Friday that year. The big story culmination was in the middle of that week, + 40 days.

The second one runs from January 2019 to the completion of 2025, and just into the first month of January 2026. It's rooted in two decrees. One by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1535, and another by the Knesset Jews themselves in January 1969. These were 62 and 7 weeks apart. 2019 would have been the equivalent to 27AD when Jesus read from the Isaiah 61 Scroll declaring the favourable "year" of the Lord. Like what Isaac Newton said about the compass of Jubilee. The seven sevens pointing to the 50th year.

So if this same Jesus returns in like manner, as the first century disciples had seen Him go, (in the middle of the last heptad +40 days), something might also be starting soon. We could be getting really close, like close to a year before it happens. Using the first example as a template, I doubt we will continue normally all the way to the end of the "week".

Bear in mind, I always think that the Lord is coming soon, so I always default to the earliest date. Even so, Paul's sudden destruction could begin, and we might find ourselves plunged into a hard and quick countdown to the actual second coming. It might be like a day of vengeance, a year of recompense, for the cause of Zion.

With we being the Holy Mt Zion now.

Peaceful Sabbath.

I heard the term "last days," and see a basic confusion with many who are trying to understand this term. What are the "last days," if they were designated as such in the apostles' time, and are also used for the end of the age?

Really, I think we need to understand that the term often reflects the fall of a civilization, such as when Israel declines as a nation of God, and is close to national judgment. It involves a state of apostasy from the true faith, and is accompanied by an imminent judgment of God against that nation. That is why it is termed "the last days," because a nation is close to coming to an end.

The entire NT era is, as I often point out, a period of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People. In Jesus time, Israel was coming to an end. It was the "last days" for Israel in the present era. They were engaged in the worst kind of apostasy--the rejection of their own Messiah, and the rejection of his eternal atonement for their sins. They were insistent in living in their own sin nature, independent of God, and covering it up with a facade of allegiance to the Law of Moses.

Their judgment would come about 40 years after Jesus was crucified by the Romans, in 70 AD. Clearly, those were the "last days" for Israel, even though there remains a future Hope for Israel, when Messiah returns.

So Israel came into a time of punishment called "the Great Tribulation." They were destroyed as a nation by the Romans, and sent into an age-long exile called the "Jewish Diaspora." Some like to identify the "Great Tribulation" as only 3.5 years at the end of the age, when Antichrist rules, persecutes the Church, and brings all kinds of calamities upon the earth from God.

But the truth is, the "Great Tribulation" began with Israel's "last days," when Israel fell into great apostasy and lawlessness, and came under an age-long period of judgment. During this same period, the Gospel message has been extended to non-Jewish nations, to enable them to learn the same lessons that Israel has learned, with the same results. Nations rise, become Christian, and then they backslide, sin, and come under judgment. Their "last days" ensue.

I hope this helps you understand why, biblically, the "last days" started back in the time of Israel's Roman judgment and continues until today? It isn't just the Rule of Antichrist, or an end-time period in which plagues are sent out into the earth. No, this is an age-long process in which nations hear the Gospel, respond, and then ultimately fall away, with few remaining to be faithful to the Lord.

The biblical last days started at Pentecost along with the start of the church, per Peter in Acts 2, stating that what was being seen there was the fulfillment of the prophet Joel prophecy, that in the last days, God will pour out His spirit upon us.

And the events that constitute, not just any of various tribulations, but THE tribulation, and GREAT tribulation, are found in the parallel accounts of it in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, spoken by Jesus.

We don’t have to speculate.

And the GREAT tribulation is 42 months long, and so is THE tribulation that precedes it.

Maranatha

 

[Randy Kluth]

The biblical last days started at Pentecost along with the start of the church, per Peter in Acts 2, stating that what was being seen there was the fulfillment of the prophet Joel prophecy, that in the last days, God will pour out His spirit upon us.

And the events that constitute, not just any of various tribulations, but THE tribulation, and GREAT tribulation, are found in the parallel accounts of it in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, spoken by Jesus.

We don’t have to speculate.

And the GREAT tribulation is 42 months long, and so is THE tribulation that precedes it.

Maranatha

You cite my post, and yet you don't show any recognition of my arguments. The "Last Days," to me, seem to refer to something like the end of a kingdom. Israel was approaching the end of its national life, because they were rejecting Jesus. So judgment was coming upon them, which gives rise to the term "Last Days."

So if we look at the "Last Days" as the end of Israel, you would have to include the totality of the NT period, beginning with the fall of Israel in 70 AD. When Jesus comes back, Israel will be restored, beginning a new chapter in Israel's life.

Jesus positively identified the "Great Tribulation" as a "Jewish Punishment," and as a time beginning with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and ending at the end of the age. The reign of Antichrist, which is 3.5 years, is only the tail end of this long period of Great Tribulation.

We have come to use the term "Great Tribulation" synonymously with the Reign of Antichrist. But that is not how Jesus used the term. As I said, it was a reference to the experience of the Jewish People, who at that time were alone God's People. It included both believing and unbelieving Jews, because the majority of them were not believers, and the nation as a whole was heading towards divine judgment in 70 AD.

All Jews, believers and unbelievers, would suffer this loss of a national homeland, and thus all would experience this "Great Tribulation." Only unbelieving Jews would suffer the indignity of being punished for their sins, whereas believing Jews would suffer persecution by their unbelieving brethren.

 

[Curtis]

You cite my post, and yet you don't show any recognition of my arguments. The "Last Days," to me, seem to refer to something like the end of a kingdom. Israel was approaching the end of its national life, because they were rejecting Jesus. So judgment was coming upon them, which gives rise to the term "Last Days."

So if we look at the "Last Days" as the end of Israel, you would have to include the totality of the NT period, beginning with the fall of Israel in 70 AD. When Jesus comes back, Israel will be restored, beginning a new chapter in Israel's life.

Jesus positively identified the "Great Tribulation" as a "Jewish Punishment," and as a time beginning with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and ending at the end of the age. The reign of Antichrist, which is 3.5 years, is only the tail end of this long period of Great Tribulation.

We have come to use the term "Great Tribulation" synonymously with the Reign of Antichrist. But that is not how Jesus used the term. As I said, it was a reference to the experience of the Jewish People, who at that time were alone God's People. It included both believing and unbelieving Jews, because the majority of them were not believers, and the nation as a whole was heading towards divine judgment in 70 AD.

All Jews, believers and unbelievers, would suffer this loss of a national homeland, and thus all would experience this "Great Tribulation." Only unbelieving Jews would suffer the indignity of being punished for their sins, whereas believing Jews would suffer persecution by their unbelieving brethren.

Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, describes the son of perdition/ abomination of desolation event, then the gathering together of the elect.

News flash - all believers in Christ become the elect, be it jew or Greek, so that gathering is of all His followers - not just Israel.

And the son of perdition is the beast of revelation aka the Antichrist who rules the world and during the great tribulation is given power to wear out the saints, and overcome them, which obviously isn’t just about national Israel - and I know that as a preterist, you never hear this, but one third of mankind is killed, and a fourth of the earth burned up, during the great tribulation that Jesus said would be the worst time of trouble the world has seen - and the world has seen 50 million people die in WW2 - so the great tribulation is worse than WORLD war 2, and so bad that if it wasn’t shortened NO FLESH would survive.

That should suffice as a rebuttal to your assertion that the rapture in Mathews 24, and the tribulation, is just for the Jews, and your 70 AD event does not qualify as an event worse than 50 million deaths in WW2, and a fourth of the world was not burned up, nor did 120 pound hail stones fall on us, nor one third of the sea life poisoned, and mount Olive has not been spit in two by Jesus.

Maranatha

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, describes the son of perdition/ abomination of desolation event, then the gathering together of the elect.

So you reject everything I just said by deflecting to the Abomination of Desolation? Luke 21 identified the "Great Tribulation" as the time stretching from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the last day of the age. And so, you now talk about the AoD?

This is a whole different subject. But there is no consensus on what the AoD will be. In the Early Church, a number of Church Fathers believed it was the Roman Army, come to destroy Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I believe the same. It was to happen in the very generation of the Apostles, as Jesus himself said.

Regardless, diverting to another subject does not change what Jesus said in Luke 21, in his description of the Great Tribulation. It was a Punishment of the Jewish People for rejecting their Messiah in favor of carnal living. It was a national apostasy, bringing Israel into their "Last Days."

News flash - all believers in Christ become the elect, be it jew or Greek, so that gathering is of all His followers - not just Israel.

This is no new revelation to me. But did you get the memo? When Jesus spoke about the Great Tribulation, he was still in OT times! He was addressing Israel, who at that time was still the only chosen nation. The addition of Gentiles to the Church was yet to come, following the resurrection. What happened to Israel as a nation was to become a model and a warning for future Christian nations.

And the son of perdition is the beast of revelation aka the Antichrist who rules the world and during the great tribulation is given power to wear out the saints, and overcome them, which obviously isn’t just about national Israel - and I know that as a preterist, you never hear this, but one third of mankind is killed, and a fourth of the earth burned up, during the great tribulation that Jesus said would be the worst time of trouble the world has seen - and the world has seen 50 million people die in WW2 - so the great tribulation is worse than WORLD war 2, and so bad that if it wasn’t shortened NO FLESH would survive.

How is the destruction of 1/4 the earth any worse than the Black Plague, which killed 1/4 of Europe in the 14th century? How is the beheading of saints during the reign of Antichrist any worse than Nero's beheading of Christians in the ancient Roman Empire? No, what makes this Tribulation worse than all others in Israel's history is the sheer length of this punishment, lasting throughout the entire present age! And it lasts so long that it threatens the extermination of Israel. If the State of Israel had not been reborn, the Jewish People could have perished. But the threat to Israel continues even with the Jewish State. And so, Israel must be saved out of it.

Nowhere is the reign of Antichrist called the "Great Tribulation." The Church is saved out of the tribulation of the entire NT era. In the same way, the Jewish People have suffered great tribulation throughout the entire NT era.

Furthermore, I'm not a Preterist. Shame on you for slandering me that way! Viewing prophecies as being fulfilled in the past is not Preterism. Preterism tends to look at *all prophecy* as already fulfilled, including the book of Revelation. I don't. I believe the Olivet Discourse referred primarily to the judgment of Israel in the present age, beginning in 70 AD. But I also believe in a future Antichrist. The AoD of the Olivet Discourse is, however, a reference to the Roman Army 66-70 AD, and not to the Antichrist.

Don't lie about those who you disagree with. That's not the way to make your argument.

That should suffice as a rebuttal to your assertion that the rapture in Mathews 24, and the tribulation, is just for the Jews, and your 70 AD event does not qualify as an event worse than 50 million deaths in WW2, and a fourth of the world was not burned up, nor did 120 pound hail stones fall on us, nor one third of the sea life poisoned, and mount Olive has not been spit in two by Jesus.
Maranatha

Not only have you failed to rebut my argument, but you don't even cast the argument well. What makes the Great Tribulation the worst in Israel's history is the length of time that punishment lasts, threatening the existence of the Jewish People. The punishments inflicted on Israel biblically were sometimes numbered in years. This final punishment is so "great" that its length is not even numbered. It lasts until the "time of the Gentiles come to an end," as Jesus said.

You ignore 2 critical factors here.
1) Jesus called the Great Tribulation or Great Distress a *Jewish Punishment.*
2) Jesus said this Great Tribulation would last from the fall of Jerusalem (70 AD) to the end of t he age.

Furthermore, Jesus did mean to apply the example of Israel to the Gentile Church, which would also accumulate nations for God. They were given warning from Israel's experience to prepare for something similar in their own national experience.