The Devil

[veteran]

Truth,

Really nothing to respond to. You deny the meaning of "anointed cherub" in Ezek.28 which is applied to the prince and king of Tyrus in that chapter, and instead want to say God was speaking only about flesh kings.

Yet no flesh king of Tyrus was in God's Garden of Eden, nor in such a high status near His Throne and Altar like He shows that anointed cherub was.

The name Tyrus means 'rock'. In Deut.32:31 God refers to the false one the wicked worship as "their rock" (lower case), while GOD is The "Rock" there. Along with that are given symbols of the "dragon" and "venom of asps", pointing to snakes (like "that old serpent", the Devil and Satan per Rev.12:9), and the "dragon" title, which is another title for Satan revealed in Revelation 12.

In the Book of Job, the sons of God appeared before God's Throne, and Satan appeared along with them, and God addressed Satan directly about His servant Job. To treat Satan as a non-entity means you must intepret that event as if God was speaking in the air, or to Himself, which is blasphemy against our Heavenly Father, especially since He caused that event to be written in His Word. It is likewise with Christ being tempted in the wilderness by the Devil. To infer there was no entity named Satan doing that tempting is also to wrongly infer Christ's temptation came from Himself. Such ideas that have led you to such reasoning come from the Devil himself. You are under direct attack by the Devil. Not your flesh, not by others, but the Devil himself, a heavenly order being that is real.

 

[Alethos]

‘The notion that Satan, or the devil, is a real being who can influence people's lives is regarded as hogwash by most Americans.

Only one-quarter (27%) strongly believes that Satan is real while a majority argues that he is merely a symbol of evil.

Mormons are the group most likely to accept the reality of Satan's existence (59%) while Catholics, Episcopalians and Methodists are the least likely (just one-fifth).’

The Barna Group, 25 June, 2001

‘In 2007 more than half of adults (57%) say that the devil, or Satan, is not a living being but is a symbol of evil

In 2007 46% of born again Christians deny Satan's existence

Two-thirds of Catholics (64%) say the devil is non-existent and only a symbol of evil’

The Barna Group, 2007

 

[Foreigner]

‘The notion that Satan, or the devil, is a real being who can influence people's lives is regarded as hogwash by most Americans.

Only one-quarter (27%) strongly believes that Satan is real while a majority argues that he is merely a symbol of evil.

Mormons are the group most likely to accept the reality of Satan's existence (59%) while Catholics, Episcopalians and Methodists are the least likely (just one-fifth).’

The Barna Group, 25 June, 2001

‘In 2007 more than half of adults (57%) say that the devil, or Satan, is not a living being but is a symbol of evil

In 2007 46% of born again Christians deny Satan's existence

Two-thirds of Catholics (64%) say the devil is non-existent and only a symbol of evil’

The Barna Group, 2007

-- My response would be.....And?

Because these people believe this obviously does not make them right.

Oh, and for the record, the head of the "Barna Group" that took the survey, when asked if he attends church, responded: "Forgive me, but I kind of bristle at that expression. “Church” refers to a living organism, not a place, event or institution. I am part of a faith community that meets in the homes of its participants, a house church. I have the privilege of doing most of the teaching in our group, which began meeting in 2005."

That should at least give you a moment of pause...


The second thing about surveys/polls - and I would have said this if the findings were just the opposite - you need to take care in blindly believing them.


Results can vary (read: be skewered) easily just by manipulating HOW the question is asked.


That is why political polls from Pew, Gallop, Zobgy, Rasmussen, etc. etc. etc. can show a presidentail approval rating by 30 points from pollster to pollster.
Add in polls done by ABC News, FoxNews, etc. and it can vary by an even larger amount.

 

[Alethos]

-- My response would be.....And?

Because these people believe this obviously does not make them right.

Oh, and for the record, the head of the "Barna Group" that took the survey, when asked if he attends church, responded: "Forgive me, but I kind of bristle at that expression. “Church” refers to a living organism, not a place, event or institution. I am part of a faith community that meets in the homes of its participants, a house church. I have the privilege of doing most of the teaching in our group, which began meeting in 2005."

That should at least give you a moment of pause...


The second thing about surveys/polls - and I would have said this if the findings were just the opposite - you need to take care in blindly believing them.


Results can vary (read: be skewered) easily just by manipulating HOW the question is asked.


That is why political polls from Pew, Gallop, Zobgy, Rasmussen, etc. etc. etc. can show a presidentail approval rating by 30 points from pollster to pollster.
Add in polls done by ABC News, FoxNews, etc. and it can vary by an even larger amount.

I agree with all you have stated above.

Christian thought on this subject is varied as we are finding. Some here jealously guard the belief in a supernatural devil, while others do not.

Alethos

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Looking at Hebrews 2:14 The word destroy

katargeō

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency

B) to deprive of force, influence, power

2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

a) to cease, to pass away, be done away

B) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one

c) to terminate all intercourse with one




Seeing how the same word is used in context throughout, it seems to imply here "to deprive of force, influence, power." Christ now has the power and authority over death, where once it belonged to man until they sinned, handed over to the devil the ruler of sin, and back to Christ when sin was defeated through the Son of Man, and thus back to man also.

 

[Alethos]

Looking at Hebrews 2:14 The word destroy

katargeō

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency

B) to deprive of force, influence, power

2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

a) to cease, to pass away, be done away

B) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one

c) to terminate all intercourse with one




Seeing how the same word is used in context throughout, it seems to imply here "to deprive of force, influence, power." Christ now has the power and authority over death, where once it belonged to man until they sinned, handed over to the devil the ruler of sin, and back to Christ when sin was defeated through the Son of Man, and thus back to man also.

Martin,

So that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death -- that is, the devil:

If you look at previous verses in Hebrews the purpose of Jesus being made a human being (Flesh & Blood) is stated positively (as salvation or the purifying from sins), but now it is expressed negatively (as the destruction of the power of death).

He too shared in their humanity:

"For this cause and forasmuch also as the children (of the Deity) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy that having the power of death that is the diabolos, or the elements of corruption in our nature, inciting it to sin, and therefore called sin working death in us (Rom 7:13; Heb 2:9,14).

Jesus was subject to obedience under trial. Jesus has been appointed Captain of Salvation Heb 2:10 in the bringing of many sons to Glory. Now these sons in the inherited from birth, death Rom 5:12, with propensities and enticements to sin. A Captain therefore whose nature was primarily as God, could not be touched with the feeling of their infirmities nor could he sympathise wit them. He would be essentially holy and impeccable and of necessity good as Ducky, Veteran, Foreigner & Aspen all state in error.

Did your Captain suffer in the flesh in like manner? If not, then he is not your captain!

If so, he promises those who overcome, as their Captain has overcome, when it can be said his victory is complete (Rev 3:21; 11:15). At a time when God will make the Captain of the Salvation of His many sons perfect through sufferings; and to effect this, he must be of their primary nature, Flesh and Blood. When the Great Captain and his saints shall rejoice together with angelic nature of God, they may all have attained to Glory by voluntary obedience motivated by faith. Having been provoke to sin all their days and having fought the good fight through faith, overcame.

The flesh was needed by making it possible for Jesus to be tempted in all points according to the flesh likeness without sin Heb 4:15.Though the Son of the God and Heir of all things, yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect he became the author of our Salvation unto all them that obey him (Heb 4:15; 5:8)

The devil: "Diabolos" -- the "accuser". The carnal mind of (Rom 8:7); the "works of the flesh" (Gal 5:19); "lusts" (1 Jo 2:16); or simply the "flesh" (Jam 1:14). 1 Jo 3:8; Rom 8:3.

For Jesus (like David) to do battle with Goliath (Sin and death) Jesus needed to encounter the power of death in himself that is where the challenge is, and that is where Jesus conquered him!

And what a great victory it was when he destroyed the devil. Heb 2:14



Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Over and over the Bible says "the devil", Satan, "the evil one"... Should we believe 'Truth' or God?

 

[Foreigner]

It's no use, Ducky.

Truth's mind is made up. He doesn't want to be bothered with the facts.

 

[Duckybill]

It's no use, Ducky.

Truth's mind is made up. He doesn't want to be bothered with the facts.

I agree, but perhaps some will see the real Truth and not be led astray. There will be some who will harden their hearts, like 'truth' has and will believe the lies from the devil who has deceived them. I am still wondering what religion 'truth' professes. He seems to reject nearly every major Bible doctrine.

 

[IanLC]

I agree with you on many points. What we as the body of Christ do not uniderstand is that Satan is
1. Not omnipotent
2.Not omniscient
3.Not omnipresent

He has a limited amount of resources. He is the prince of the air and is not form this realm of the world we live in. He can not have any access or control in the world except that which the leaders of this wolrd allow him. We as humans are the leaders and rulers of the world. Not othe rbeing except from God but he still came down in the form of a man (Jesus); can operate or control in the world except through a man. The power that Satan has in the World systems is the power from which man has gave him. If we as the Christ ambassadors for the kingdom of God would realize our power (exousia) over the realm which God gave us we could take back some of the power that Satan and his imps, devils and demons have. Satan very rarely tries the average man. There are only a few times when Satan has messed with a man. 1. Adam and Eve
2. Job
3. Jesus Christ
Satan is the King and Prince of evil he messes with people that are close in idea to him. The three people I named had favor with God. God had given them dominion and power over the world. Satan did not like that. We "average Joes" are attacked by demons of our rank. But they have so little power in the wolrd that by the name of Jesus we have authority to run them off! We delegate and legislate what goes on in this realm! No other power or dimension can govern he without the power being given to them by man!

 

[Alethos]

It's no use, Ducky.

Truth's mind is made up. He doesn't want to be bothered with the facts.

Hi Foreigner,

It is true that I also could use the same conclusion against you and Ducky, could I not?

I am yet to see a cohesive study on the devil which teaches all that you profess to be? However the Bible teaches a complete message one which is in harmony with Gods plan of redemption.

Many in this forum is yet to see the supernatural explained within these passages Heb 2:14 Heb 4:15 2 Cor 5:21 - John 3:13-15 Num 21:9 which clearly speak of the flesh and its lusts, whether individual, nation or the whole world, as the sole enemy of God <BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Hi Foreigner,

It is true that I also could use the same conclusion against you and Ducky, could I not?

I am yet to see a cohesive study on the devil which teaches all that you profess to be? However the Bible teaches a complete message one which is in harmony with Gods plan of redemption.

Many in this forum is yet to see the supernatural explained within these passages Heb 2:14 Heb 4:15 2 Cor 5:21 - John 3:13-15 Num 21:9 which clearly speak of the flesh and its lusts, whether individual, nation or the whole world, as the sole enemy of God <BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">Alethos

Your basic argument is that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Alethos]

Your basic argument is that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says. That pretty much sums it up.

Many in this forum would disagree with you Ducky.

But Matt 22:14

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Many in this forum would disagree with you Ducky.

But Matt 22:14

If they agree with you I feel very sorry for them.

 

[Alethos]

If they agree with you I feel very sorry for them.

Yes Matt 18:19

 

[Alethos]

Keeping to the subject of the devil...we note that the word "devil" is a New Testament term and speaks to the basic sinful tendency inherent in human nature, and is also used to label individuals or human powers who are false accusers or slanderers. It often used as a personification of sin useful study tip or opposition to God in some human form or power. It is incorrect to claim that "the devil" is a rebellious fallen angel who brings sin into the world, who deceives mankind into following a way which leads to destruction.

• The word "devil" (Greek diabolos, one who throws things against) is "only" found in the New Testament, and used to personify the Old Testament idea of a rebellious human heart:

• The human heart, (mind), is the source of evil thinking (thoughts) (Mar 7:21; Gen 6:6; Pro 6:14; Jer 4:14; 17:9; 23:26; Psa 64:1-6). Scripture always points to ourselves and not a fallen angel as being the sole source of “all” temptation.

• Every person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires (James 1:14; cp 1 Jo 2:16). If that person yields to their own passions, they sins (Jam 1:15) and is labeled "of the devil" (1Jo 3:8). On the other hand if we do not yield it is described as "resisting the devil" (James 4:1-4,7). You have seen quoted in this forum “withstand the wiles of the devil” is to put off being corrupt by deceitful lusts and living the passions of the flesh, we do this when we follow the desire of body and mind (Eph 2:3; 4:22,27; 6:11).

• As we have stated numerous times "the devil" means the tendency of human nature to sin, and is well taught in the life of Christ. We now know Jesus shared our human nature, he was tempted in every respect like ourselves (Heb 2:14; 4:15). His temptation "by the devil" in the wilderness (Mat 4:1-11) is understood as being a prompt by his own thinking and desires (hunger pains, sensationalism, mans glory: compare 1 Jo 2:16). Thankfully Jesus never gave into his own human will, and was sinless (Mat 26:38-42; 1Pe 2:22; Heb 4:15), he overcame sin by the sacrifice of himself (Heb 9:26; 10:4-10; compare Rom 8:3). Stated another way, figuratively and literally Jesus crucified the flesh and its lusts, Jesus destroyed the "devil" in himself, in his body and death (Heb 2:14; 1 Jo 3:8; Gal 5:24; 6:14; Col 2:13-15; Joh 3:14).

• The betrayer Judas is called a devil in Joh 6:70. He was a thief who was greedy for gain/money, When he decided to sell his Lord; he was described as: "the devil put it into his heart" (Joh 12:6; 13:2; compare Luke 22:3-5). The same language is used of used with Ananias (Act 5:3,4), Elymas (Act 13:8-10), and the murderous Pharisees (Joh 8:44). Other passages of similar character are: Jam 3:15; 1 Ti 3:6,11; 2Ti 2:26; 3:3; Tit 2:3. Roman and Jewish persecuting powers are also personified as "the devil" (1Pe 5:8,9; Rev 2:9,10; 12:3,9,17; cp Mat 2:16; Act 4:26,27).

• The Bible nowhere refers to the origin of the devil, and those verses which are sometimes used to suggest that it does (like Isa 14:12 and Eze 28:13) plainly refer in picturesque language to arrogant human powers, in the first case Babylon, and the second Tyre.

We know the imagination of man is wicked continually from his youth. We have found the concept of a supernatural monster is absent from the record, after many requests to produce this creature from the first 3 chapters in Genesis, thus far, not one can be found (silience). I have been labelled a "fundamentalist" because one wants to seek a foundation of truth, as taught by the Apostles and Prophets who diligently search the Word daily to see those thngs being done in the earth.

After this I would like to see how the devil is dead to all those who are hid in Christ and forms a far more positive study of the devil.


Alethos

 

[[email protected]]

It is incorrect to claim that "the devil" is a rebellious fallen angel who brings sin into the world, who deceives mankind into following a way which leads to destruction.

Those who 'claim' that the devil is a rebellious angel who brings deceit into the world get their strange ideas from the Bible. Where do you get your ideas?

And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Rev 12:9

 

[Duckybill]

Yes Matt 18:19

Off hand I don't know of anything you believe that is Scriptural. Jesus/God, everlasting punishment, the existence of Satan ...

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

 

[Alethos]

Those who 'claim' that the devil is a rebellious angel who brings deceit into the world get their strange ideas from the Bible. Where do you get your ideas?

And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Rev 12:9

rjp,

Maybe you can explain in some detail the events of the devils destruction? How is he actually restrained and where, how is he released and who releases him etc.

Thanks

Alethos