Summarize what the good news is, find a scripture.

[Ferris Bueller]

Well you are going to have to come up with some scriptures for all that

Christ's ministry is a completed ministry. But a completed ministry that never comes to an end and stops interceding (like the Levitical ministry did). And so the requirements of the law continue on, eternal and never-ending, always being fulfilled through Christ and his ministry in heaven.

Hebrews 9:12

Hebrews 7:25

 

[Grailhunter]

The law has changed, yet heaven and earth haven't passed away.
So, simple logic tells us the fulfillment has occurred.

This sentence does not give room for either....or.....it is both.
The question is, what does that mean?

 

[Grailhunter]

But not for purposes of justification.

There is no salvation in the Old Testament and that is not what the prophets are talking about when they talk of a Messiah.

 

[Grailhunter]

Christ's ministry is a completed ministry. But a completed ministry that never comes to an end and stops interceding (like the Levitical ministry did). And so the requirements of the law continue on, eternal and never-ending, always being fulfilled through Christ and his ministry in heaven.

Hebrews 9:12

Hebrews 7:25

I understand the Christian perspective of it and how it affects Christians.
But still the scriptures still talk about the law being forever.

So you have to come up with an explaination that includes the eternal Mosaic Law unchanged and the Christian perspective of how it changed for them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This sentence does not give room for either....or.....it is both.
The question is, what does that mean?

Even you agree the law has changed, right? Hebrews 7:12
So, why are heaven and earth still here, since you claim that Jesus is saying no change can occur before heaven and earth pass away?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is no salvation in the Old Testament and that is not what the prophets are talking about when they talk of a Messiah.

There is forgiveness/justification under the law.
Just not for everything.

Acts of the Apostles 13:39

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But still the scriptures still talk about the law being forever.

So you have to come up with an explaination that includes the eternal Mosaic Law unchanged and the Christian perspective of how it changed for them.

You simply did not understand what I said. I explained it.

 

[marks]

But remember
when paul and barnabas and even peter had folks coming up to worship them they shut it down .
Saying we are men like you . JESUS NEVER REBUKED THOMAS for calling HIM LORD and MY GOD .

Yes, Jesus is not LESS honorable than were Paul and Barnabas.

Much love!

 

[Grailhunter]

Even you agree the law has changed, right? Hebrews 7:12
So, why are heaven and earth still here, since you claim that Jesus is saying no change can occur before heaven and earth pass away?

Observance of the Law changed from the Christian perspective. We do not observe the letter of the Law but rather the law was fulfilled through Christ and our covenant is through Christ.

Why are heaven and earth still here?
That is where the debate is.
Ezekiel has a lot to say about the future temple....a place where God will dwell forever....sacrifices continue.
And then you get into the whole Red Heifer thing.
Some see that the Old Covenant is no longer in effect.
Some see that the Old Covenant still pertains for the Jews.

Now you look at the struggles that Paul had with the Judaizers, he was not saying that the Jewish religion was not valid. He was saying that the Mosaic Law did not pertain to Christians. If you wanted to convert to Judaism, one the first things you did was to be circumcised. Paul was saying that was not necessary for Christians....and if you did then you had to follow the whole law...and effectively you were severed from Christ.

To understand this you have to realize that there was two different Christian sects in the biblical era. The Jewish-Christians and the Gentile-Christians. You take James for example, what we know of him is that he still observed the Sabbath on Saturday and there is a debate if he was still sacrificing.

James was either Christ's step brother or half brother through his mother. He cannot be his brother because Joseph was not his father.....he was not one of the twelve....and we do not know how he came to be the leader of the Apostles....out of Jerusalem. Either way the conflict between Paul and the judaizers was the reason for the meeting in Jerusalem. At that meeting there is no discussion that the Jewish religion was no longer valid, just that the Christian did not have to observe the 613 Mosaic Laws and Jewish customs.

So if the Mosaic Law still continued for Jewish-Christians and Jews then it could last until heaven and earth pass away and all things fulfilled. Certainly Christ fulfilled the law....but is that all that is going to be fulfilled?

 

[Grailhunter]

There is forgiveness/justification under the law.
Just not for everything.

Acts of the Apostles 13:39

Look into the Old Testament and figure out what sacrifices were for. They were to prevent the wrath of God....nothing more.
No forgiveness for sins.....LOL....but they could transfer sins and take them away from Israel as a nation....it was know as the scapegoat.

 

[amigo de christo]

The GOOD NEWS IS OUR GLORIOUS LORD . ITS THE GOSPEL . GOOD NEWS . BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
Confess HIM by mouth and beleive that GOD has rose HIM from the dead and you shall be saved . NOW THAT IS GOOD NEWS .

 

[amigo de christo]

It is time to praise and thank the glorious LORD .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Look into the Old Testament and figure out what sacrifices were for. They were to prevent the wrath of God....nothing more.
No forgiveness for sins.....LOL....but they could transfer sins and take them away from Israel as a nation....it was know as the scapegoat.

"27And if one of the common people sins unintentionally and does what is prohibited by any of the LORD’s commandments, he incurs guilt. 28When he becomes aware of the sin he has committed, he must bring an unblemished female goat as his offering for that sin. 29He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. 30Then the priest is to take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 31Then he is to remove all the fat, just as it is removed from the peace offering, and the priest is to burn it on the altar as a pleasing aroma to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven." Leviticus 4:27-31
​

So, as we can see there is zero truth in what you say.
What the Levitical sacrifices could not do is take away your sin nature. But it could most certainly forgive your sin...until the next time you sinned. Then you have to perform the ceremony for forgiveness all over again. Those ceremonies could never change that.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you wanted to convert to Judaism, one the first things you did was to be circumcised. Paul was saying that was not necessary for Christians....and if you did then you had to follow the whole law...and effectively you were severed from Christ.

Only if you are trying to be justified through circumcision.

"4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ..." Galatians 5:4​

There's nothing wrong with physical circumcision.
It's being circumcised for the purpose of being justified that is forbidden—"...you who are trying to be justified by the law..."

Just being circumcised doesn't obligate you to the whole law.
Only being circumcised for the purpose of being justified obligates you to the whole law.

 

[Grailhunter]

"27And if one of the common people sins unintentionally and does what is prohibited by any of the LORD’s commandments, he incurs guilt. 28When he becomes aware of the sin he has committed, he must bring an unblemished female goat as his offering for that sin. 29He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. 30Then the priest is to take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 31Then he is to remove all the fat, just as it is removed from the peace offering, and the priest is to burn it on the altar as a pleasing aroma to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven." Leviticus 4:27-31
​

So, as we can see there is zero truth in what you say.
What the Levitical sacrifices could not do is take away your sin nature. But it could most certainly forgive your sin...until the next time you sinned. Then you have to perform the ceremony for forgiveness all over again. Those ceremonies could never change that.

Oh I did forget about unintentional sins. Sorry!
I said find the purpose for sacrifices....
Or do you think all sins in the Old Testament were by accident?
LOL
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

 

[Grailhunter]

Only if you are trying to be justified through circumcision.

"4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ..." Galatians 5:4​

There's nothing wrong with physical circumcision.
It's being circumcised for the purpose of being justified that is forbidden—"...you who are trying to be justified by the law..."

Just being circumcised doesn't obligate you to the whole law.
Only being circumcised for the purpose of being justified obligates you to the whole law.

I agree but I am saying that circumcision is part of converting to Judaism and if you receive circumcision for that purpose you are severed from Christ. You are Jew by intent.
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

Animal sacrifices couldn't set a person free from the guilt caused by your propensity to sin because they didn't change you. And so they couldn't take away sin that way. But you were certainly forgiven under the law every time you did sin and offered a sacrifice for that sin. (Of the sins that could be forgiven. Some were unforgivable under the law).

Through Christ's sacrifice, not only are our sins forgiven but we are changed and set free from the guilt of our propensity to sin, and so our sin is taken away that way. And his sacrifice forgives those things you could not be forgiven for under the law (Acts of the Apostles 13:39). Except, of course, willfully sinning in a rejection of the covenant. That is not forgiven in the old covenant (Numbers 15:30-31, Deuteronomy 29:19-20), or in the new covenant (Hebrews 10:26-29).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I said find the purpose for sacrifices....

They are for the forgiveness of the sins you commit that can be forgiven (Leviticus 4:31).
And they are an annual reminder of the fact that you are a sinner (Hebrews 10:3, i.e. Numbers 5:15).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Or do you think all sins in the Old Testament were by accident?

Unintentional sin is not limited to sinning by accident.
We sin unintentionally when we sin because of fear, or ignorance.
We don't want to sin but we get pushed or lured into it by circumstances.

Intentional sin is when we defiantly and purposely sin and turn our back on our covenant with God in Christ.
There is no forgiveness for that sin. Christ's sacrifice does not automatically cover that sin. Once God turns you over to that sin there's no coming back. He doesn't allow it.

 

[Grailhunter]

Animal sacrifices couldn't set a person free from the guilt caused by your propensity to sin because they didn't change you. And so they couldn't take away sin that way. But you were certainly forgiven under the law every time you did sin and offered a sacrifice for that sin. (Of the sins that could be forgiven. Some were unforgivable under the law).

Through Christ's sacrifice, not only are our sins forgiven but we are changed and set free from the guilt of our propensity to sin, and so our sin is taken away that way. And his sacrifice forgives those things you could not be forgiven for under the law (Acts of the Apostles 13:39). Except, of course, willfully sinning in a rejection of the covenant. That is not forgiven in the old covenant (Numbers 15:30-31, Deuteronomy 29:19-20), or in the new covenant (Hebrews 10:26-29).

I agree with most of that except there were no intentional sins that were forgivable in the Old Testament. No path to salvation.