Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ferris Bueller]

Where do YOU go to settle matters - as prescribed by Christ Himself:
Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

To the body of believers. That's where we go.:

1If any of you has a grievance against another, how dare he go to law before the unrighteous instead of before the saints! 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!4So if you need to settle everyday matters, do you appoint as judges those of no standing in the church? 5I say this to your shame. Is there really no one among you wise enough to arbitrate between his brothers? 6Instead, one brother goes to law against another, and this in front of unbelievers!
​

This so obviously discounts your claim to the Catholic priesthood's supremacy over the body of believers in the matter of discernment and judgment. The sum total of us average believers 'of no standing in the church' constitute the 'church' to which disputes can be settled in the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. We don't need your Catholic priesthood to do that. That's the very thing Jesus set us free from in this New Covenant and the indwelling Holy Spirit. The ministry of the Holy Spirit sets the believer free from the tyranny of the corrupt judgments of an elitist, un-spiritual leadership.

 

[Marymog]

To the body of believers. That's where we go.:

1If any of you has a grievance against another, how dare he go to law before the unrighteous instead of before the saints! 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!4So if you need to settle everyday matters, do you appoint as judges those of no standing in the church? 5I say this to your shame. Is there really no one among you wise enough to arbitrate between his brothers? 6Instead, one brother goes to law against another, and this in front of unbelievers!
​

This so obviously discounts your claim to the Catholic priesthood's supremacy over the body of believers in the matter of discernment and judgment. The sum total of us average believers 'of no standing in the church' constitute the 'church' to which disputes can be settled in the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. We don't need your Catholic priesthood to do that. That's the very thing Jesus set us free from in this New Covenant and the indwelling Holy Spirit. The ministry of the Holy Spirit sets the believer free from the tyranny of the corrupt judgments of an elitist, un-spiritual leadership.

In 1 Corinthians 6 Paul is exhorting the members of the Church in Corinth for going to the state courts to settle their differences instead of settling it in The Church. This teaching, taking our differences to The Church so they can be settled by The Church, is also reaffirmed in Matthew 18:15-17. HOWEVER, Matthew 18 goes on to say that a person is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector (excommunicated) if they disagree with The Church.

So now the question for you Ferris is: Which Church has "supremacy over the body of believers in the matter of discernment and judgement"?

And please PLEASE don't repeat the non-sensical argument that the "sum total of us average believers" make up that church!!! If you are going to repeat that theory, then qualify it with evidence of WHO is the "sum total of average believers".

Us Catholics have a Church that has "supremacy" over us. What Church has supremacy over you?

You don't even realize that you made the argument FOR the priesthood that you say you don't need. For you see Ferris, the priesthood IS that "supremacy over the body of believers". WE have what Scripture says The Church is supposed to have: A Church made up of "priesthood" that settles our differences! You don't have that. Your "sum total of average believers" church doesn't have that and that is why your "church' is not the one spoken of in Scripture.

I look forward to what @BreadOfLife has to say that will destroy your theory.........

 

[theefaith]

Okay, so you agree that works are the result of grace through faith. Not the procurer of the grace of justification.

Both

 

[Marymog]

I do listen to THEM.

Why don’t you?

No I just take them for what they say.

You want to bring in passages which contradict those verses when we use them as you use them

The Bible must agree. It can not contradict.

You need to stop listening to what you are told. And start to listen to the apostles themselves.

Hi EG,

I agree with you. The bible cannot contradict itself. But men, not inspired by the Holy Spirit, can and do.

So my question for you is: How can a person 2,000 years after the death of the last Apostle "listen to the apostles"? They are all dead! Well, we can't. We can only read their words. That means we need men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to interpret those words and men (elders of the church) to listen to. I know you don't trust the men of The Church so you won't ever listen to them. Sooooo Which one of the thousands of Protestant churches, which are led by men, are YOU listening to? They all claim to 'listen to the apostles' but they all disagree with each other. Can you see the quandary you are in?

Curious Mary

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hi EG,

I agree with you. The bible cannot contradict itself. But men, not inspired by the Holy Spirit, can and do.

yep they do.

So my question for you is: How can a person 2,000 years after the death of the last Apostle "listen to the apostles"? They are all dead! Well, we can't. We can only read their words. That means we need men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to interpret those words and men (elders of the church) to listen to. I know you don't trust the men of The Church so you won't ever listen to them. Sooooo Which one of the thousands of Protestant churches, which are led by men, are YOU listening to? They all claim to 'listen to the apostles' but they all disagree with each other. Can you see the quandary you are in?

Curious Mary

I ask you. How can the people 2000 years after the law was given. Listen to the high priest? the priesthood God himself set up?

This very person crucified Christ

so what makes you think your church got it right?

If the jews had went to the word instead of blindly following the priest. they would have found christ. Forgive me if i want to look at history and learn from their mistake and not make the same mistake.

What satan did to the elect of the ot. he certainly could to to the elect of the New.

forgive me, but in my view, that is what happened

 

[Ferris Bueller]

For you see Ferris, the priesthood IS that "supremacy over the body of believers".

No, it has supremacy over YOU, not me.
Me, I'll submit to gifted believers who demonstrate that they have been called and anointed by God to perform various functions in the body of believers.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So now the question for you Ferris is: Which Church has "supremacy over the body of believers in the matter of discernment and judgement"?

The 'church that is led by a called and anointed leader.
If you'll just read the passage I quoted without your 'the Catholic church is only church' blinders on you'll see that any body of believers in the care of an anointed pastor and elders is the 'church' that can hear disputes between believers when the dispute can't be settled between the parties themselves. Paul goes so far to suggest that even those of 'no standing' are equipped by virtue of being a believer to mediate disputes between believers. We don't need your Catholic priesthood to do what Paul says we should be able to do ourselves.

 

[theefaith]

That does not mean everybody who claims to have authority truly has official teaching authority and are real apostles. We are to test who is a real apostle and who is not, and as I say, we have found your Catholic priesthood to be false apostles.

And in regard to teaching, we can in fact teach one another...

"14I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, brimming with knowledge, and able to instruct one another. " Romans 15:14​

I mean, isn't that what you are doing here? And just as we examine and test what people who claim to hold official offices of ministry teach, so, we also test, through the discernment of the Holy Spirit, what others, like yourself, teach and proclaim.

truth according to Ferris?
And your personal interpretation?
Prejudiced pride based private judgement? No thanks

 

[Ferris Bueller]

truth according to Ferris?
And your personal interpretation?
Prejudiced pride based private judgement? No thanks

What did you find about the plain words of Revelation 2:2 and Romans 15:14 that you are unable to understand?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You don't even realize that you made the argument FOR the priesthood that you say you don't need.

We don't need YOUR priesthood.
We need, and have, various believers called and gifted by God to be teachers and pastors and elders, and so on.

 

[BreadOfLife]

But you haven't explained why James calls the belief of the people who have the belief of the demons 'faith'. He calls their 'belief' (the same belief the demons have) dead 'faith', and the 'faith' that can not save. Why does he do that if, as you claim, 'belief' is not 'faith'?

Are you for real??
Do you REALLY need for me to explain this again??

The words James is using here, "Pistis" and "Pisteuo" have MORE than ONE definition each:
"Pistis" means "Belief" and it also means "Faith".
"Pisteuo" means "Believe" and it also means "To have Faith".

James 2:19-19
But someone will say, “You have faith (Pistis); I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith (Pistis) by my deeds. You believe (Pisteuo) that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe (Pisteuo) that—and shudder.

James 2:123 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed (Pisteuo) God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

Get it now??

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your "sum total of average believers" church doesn't have that...

Hmm...interesting how you left off the "of no standing in the church" part.
Kind of puts the arrogance of your priesthood in it's place.

We just don't need your Catholic priesthood. Sorry.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Do you REALLY need for me to explain this again??

You've never explained why James refers to the 'belief' of the demons as 'faith', which completely and utterly destroys your argument that 'belief' and 'faith' are different.

 

[Marymog]

The 'church that is led by a called and anointed leader.
If you'll just read the passage I quoted without your 'the Catholic church is only church' blinders on you'll see that any body of believers in the care of an anointed pastor and elders is the 'church' that can hear disputes between believers when the dispute can't be settled between the parties themselves. Paul goes so far to suggest that even those of 'no standing' are equipped by virtue of being a believer to mediate disputes between believers. We don't need your Catholic priesthood to do what Paul says we should be able to do ourselves.

Stop it Ferris....your answer makes zero sense. The church that is led by a called and anointed leader is the Church that has "supremacy over the body of believers in the matter of discernment and judgement"????? OK.....WHICH CHURCH IS THAT????? Is it INVISIBLE????????

 

[Marymog]

No, it has supremacy over YOU, not me.
Me, I'll submit to gifted believers who demonstrate that they have been called and anointed by God to perform various functions in the body of believers.

OK....Sooooooooo which "gifted believers" have 'demonstrated to you that they have been called and anointed by God'????? You keep making these vague statements but don't back them up with any facts. Where are these gifted believers you speak of? How do you know one of them when you see them or hear them teach? PLEASE stop being so vague.....

 

[theefaith]

You aren't paying attention. I am able to discern through the Holy Spirit who is teaching truth and who is not for it to be of any consequence if I reject them. I'm not rejecting Christ when I reject a Catholic priest that Christ did not send.

"Whoever listens to you listens to Me; whoever rejects you rejects Me; and whoever rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.” Luke 10:16​

Only the apostles have the guarantee of the spirit jn 16:13

 

[Marymog]

Hmm...interesting how you left off the "of no standing in the church" part.
Kind of puts the arrogance of your priesthood in it's place.

We just don't need your Catholic priesthood. Sorry.

You call what I have a "Catholic priesthood". What I have is no different than you have which are 'gifted believers that have been called and anointed by God'. It's the same thing kiddo.....your just using different words to describe the same thing. My gifted believers are the men (bishops and priests) of the Catholic Church. Your gifted believers are invisible because you can't even point them out to me. Your church is invisible; mine is not.
Give me the name of one person that is currently living that is a "gifted believer that has been called and anointed by God". Just one, that's all I ask of you........I don't think you will provide me one but I am patient!


Patient Mary

 

[Ferris Bueller]

How do you know one of them when you see them or hear them teach? PLEASE stop being so vague.....

Good grief, don't you read my posts. The witness of the Holy Spirit!
And don't give me any crap about me being wrong about discerning the Spirit. That's my business, between me and God. That doesn't negate the plain words of Apostle John that says every believer has the anointing of the Holy Spirit within them to know when what they are hearing is truth and when it is not. The Catholic church says, no, we're the voice that discerns for you whether or not something is true or not. Don't you see, the very topic of who discerns truth for the believer is one the Catholic church has gotten wrong, lol! All you have to do is read the Bible to see this!

 

[Marymog]

yep they do.



I ask you. How can the people 2000 years after the law was given. Listen to the high priest? the priesthood God himself set up?

This very person crucified Christ

so what makes you think your church got it right?

If the jews had went to the word instead of blindly following the priest. they would have found christ. Forgive me if i want to look at history and learn from their mistake and not make the same mistake.

What satan did to the elect of the ot. he certainly could to to the elect of the New.

forgive me, but in my view, that is what happened

EG,

I believe 'my church got it right' because I have studied my Christian history. That history has led me to The Church.

If my church didn't get it right then which one did????

Curious Mary

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Only the apostles have the guarantee of the spirit jn 16:13

No, 1 John 2:20-27 says the believer has the discernment of the Holy Spirit.
It's ironic that the Holy Spirit speaking through the scriptures shows us that the Catholic church is wrong about who has the power to discern for you whether what you're hearing is truth or not. It's laughable. It shows how out of touch the Catholic priesthood is.