Secure Eternal Salvation

[Taken]

The Catholic priesthood is not that inner circle.
I'm not rejecting Christ when I reject the Catholic church. Not even remotely.

Not - it's Christ you are rejecting.
He equates Hisa very SELF with his Church . . .

Acts 9:4-5
And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

WHO was Saul persecuting?
Answer: the CHURCH.[/QUOTE]

~ “His Church”.... Sufficient.
~ Whom was Paul persecuting?
~ Answered: Jesus

 

[BreadOfLife]

~ “His Church”.... Sufficient.
~ Whom was Paul persecuting?
~ Answered: Jesus

Saul was directly persecuting Jesus's CHURCH.
Jesus took it as a personal offense.

NOT difficult to understand that if you persecute His Church - you are persecuting HIM (Luke 10:16).

 

[Taken]

As I stated before - showing you the truth isn't a matter of "pride".
If you don't like being a Protestant - then DON'T be one . . .

You have stated numerous times, YOUR truth is True, and All Other men not in agreement with YOU, are WRONG.

What you Fail to understand is NO ONE is Scripturally Taught or Required in any fashion whatsoever, to be IN AGREEMENT with YOU.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have stated numerous times, YOUR truth is True, and All Other men not in agreement with YOU, are WRONG.

What you Fail to understand is NO ONE is Scripturally Taught or Required in any fashion whatsoever, to be IN AGREEMENT with YOU.

Funny - that's NOT what the Bible says.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Matt 16:18-19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

 

[Taken]

Saul was directly persecuting Jesus's CHURCH.
Jesus took it as a personal offense.

NOT difficult to understand that if you persecute His Church - you are persecuting HIM (Luke 10:16).

Not difficult to understand the difference between Jesus and any earthly person.

Paul Persecuted men and woman, by binding them, delivering them into prisons to be killed.

Paul Persecuted Jesus, by causing harm to men and woman who were believing in Jesus.

Not every one who believes IN Jesus ARE members of Jesus’ Church.
Jesus’ Church Members ARE Converted.

Persecuting ANY Believer, was what Paul was doing.


Acts 22:
[7] And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
[8] And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Acts 22:
[4] And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

 

[Taken]

Funny - that's NOT what the Bible says.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Matt 16:18-19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Nothing funny about it.
And quoting scriptures that have nothing to do with point is irrelevant.

Paul was persecuting, followers, believers, AND members of Jesus’ Church...
You trying to make it all about “Church members”, is not what Scripture says.

Do you forget, People were in the beginning of Learning ABOUT Jesus.
Wise men Learn ABOUT something BEFORE they commit to JOIN.
(I know that does not apply to you, because you admitted you were JOINED to YOUR CHURCH by someone else making your freewill choice FOR YOU.)

 

[Taken]

Funny - that's NOT what the Bible says.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Irrelevant Scripture to the point.

Paul was persecuting anyone, everyone....
Who believed in Jesus.

Is everyone who believes in Jesus....IN Jesus’ Church...? No.
The Point was not about Jesus’ Church.

Reviewing History, few believers were JOINING Jesus’ Church.
Reviewing History, most believers were STILL Learning ABOUT Jesus.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

...it's Christ you are rejecting.
He equates Hisa very SELF with his Church . . .

Acts 9:4-5
And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

WHO was Saul persecuting?
Answer: the CHURCH.

What you aren't understanding is you have to be persecuting the real church to be guilty of persecuting the church.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Sooooo, because I asked you about where you go to church and if you have a pastor - you ask if I'm a "narcissut"??
Do you even know what a narcissist is??

Talk about a non sequitor . . .

If you know what a narcissist is, then surely you know why I asked if you are one.

You get it, right?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not difficult to understand the difference between Jesus and any earthly person.

Paul Persecuted men and woman, by binding them, delivering them into prisons to be killed.

Paul Persecuted Jesus, by causing harm to men and woman who were believing in Jesus.

Not every one who believes IN Jesus ARE members of Jesus’ Church.
Jesus’ Church Members ARE Converted.

Persecuting ANY Believer, was what Paul was doing.


Acts 22:
[7] And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
[8] And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Acts 22:
[4] And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Nothing funny about it.
And quoting scriptures that have nothing to do with point is irrelevant.

Paul was persecuting, followers, believers, AND members of Jesus’ Church...
You trying to make it all about “Church members”, is not what Scripture says.

Do you forget, People were in the beginning of Learning ABOUT Jesus.
Wise men Learn ABOUT something BEFORE they commit to JOIN.
(I know that does not apply to you, because you admitted you were JOINED to YOUR CHURCH by someone else making your freewill choice FOR YOU.)

Irrelevant Scripture to the point.

Paul was persecuting anyone, everyone....
Who believed in Jesus.

Is everyone who believes in Jesus....IN Jesus’ Church...? No.
The Point was not about Jesus’ Church.

Reviewing History, few believers were JOINING Jesus’ Church.
Reviewing History, most believers were STILL Learning ABOUT Jesus.

WOW - you must be bored this morning. I get that sense every time you jump into a tag-team Cathoilic-bashubs sessions.
Too bad you don't actually understand what you're reading . . .

For starters - Saul was persecuting the CHURCH, not just "unconverted" believers:
1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the CHURCH of God.

Philippians 3:5-6
… circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews (Saul); concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the CHURCH; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

THIS was as offensive to Jesus as if Saul lwas doing it to HIM personally (Acts 9:4-5).
NOT syre what you're trying to revise the Scriptures - but I understand coming from a person as confused and angry as YOU.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If you know what a narcissist is, then surely you know why I asked if you are one.

You get it, right?

Then, just humor me.

Tell me WHY asking you about where you go to church and if you have a pastor would trigger a question about my "narcissism".

 

[BreadOfLife]

What you aren't understanding is you have to be persecuting the real church to be guilty of persecuting the church.

Soooo - in YOUR opinion, Saul would have had to climb into a time machine and jump ahead 1500 years to finad that "REAL" Church?

That's a cool science fiction story - but silly as an historical premise.

 

[Taken]

WOW - you must be bored this morning. I get that sense every time you jump into a tag-team Cathoilic-bashubs sessions.

LOL....Everything is not about YOU, or about YOUR Catholic Church.

For starters - Saul was persecuting the CHURCH, not just "unconverted" believers:
1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the CHURCH of God.

So...if you finally recognize, Paul was persecuting “unconverted” believers...
Why were you preaching a HALF TRUTH ?

That was my POINT! Paul persecuted Jesus, men, women who were Believers, whether or not the men and women were “MEMBERS of Jesus Church”!

NOT syre what you're trying to revise the Scriptures - but I understand coming from a person as confused and angry as YOU.

Your irrelevant accusations do not affect me, nor does it make your teaching of half truths advantages to anyone.

 

[Taken]

Soooo - in YOUR opinion, Saul would have had to climb into a time machine and jump ahead 1500 years to finad that "REAL" Church?

That's a cool science fiction story - but silly as an historical premise.

Funny how you resort to speaking for others then call that speech YOU SAY...
Fictional and silly....then wonder why people dismiss what YOU say.

 

[Marymog]

He is the head of the body, the church
(Colossians 1:18)​

we, many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
(Romans 12:5)​

i am not subject to an earthly organization.
i belong to all believers, and all believers belong to me.

if i say, 'my church needs an human king, like the nations around us!' am i not rejecting the LORD my King?
1 Samuel 8 ring a bell?

Hi post,

Yup, He is head of The Church. What about Matthew 16:18? Who does he say he will build The Church upon?

What is The Church in Matthew 18:17 and 1 Timothy 3:15?

You are subject to your own authority if you are not subject to an "earthly organization".

What do you do when two of the "all believers" disagree with each other? According to Scripture you take your differences to The Church to settle your disagreement. Who do you go to post to settle your differences? Yourself?

 

[Marymog]

that is only a predicament if you presume all Christians are infallible.
experience, as well as scripture shows that we are capable of frustrating the Spirit ((Isaiah 63:10, Acts 7:51, Galatians 2:21, Ephesians 4:30, 1 Thessalonians 5:19, etc))
so the Word is not contradicted, that we who belong to Him have in us the Spirit that teaches us all things ((1 John 2:27)) - and it is in fact upheld, because even though John writes this in his little letter, doesn't he also fill that letter with instruction? to those very ones about whom he says, you do not need to be instructed?

it makes much less sense that one man, appointed by men, has God's anointing, and that this man appointed by men speaks as God to all men.
what does scripture say?

No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother,
saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,
says the LORD.
For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.
(Jeremiah 31:34)​

and

He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
(Ephesians 4:11-12)​

if only the papacy should teach, only the papacy knows the Truth, then what are we doing here in a forum discussing doctrine?
and you, @Marymog, if you believe your own words, what are you doing trying to teach @Ferris Bueller? aren't you contradicting your own doctrine by thinking to instruct anyone?

but Ferris is correct - is God's purpose that we all remain children under a Roman schoolmaster? or that we become wise, and that He Himself dwell in and work through all of us, His body, over which He and He alone is the head?

I only instruct what the pillar and foundation of truth teaches. Who is the pillar and foundation of truth post?

 

[Marymog]

The jews in Jesus day thought they got it right,
Because they studied history

Study the Bible. History has been proven for thousands of years to not be a good indicator of who is right. The victor is the one who writes history. So history is going to support your view.

It does not mean it is the right view.

SOME of the Jews in Jesus day did get it right. They chose Jesus after they studied the Torah and accepted Pauls oral tradition about Jesus. Remember the Bereans and Theselonians? The Bereans got it right; the Thessalonians didn't. They both used the same Scripture (what we now call the OT) and came up with different conclusions. Just like today. We all read the same Scripture (the NT) and come up with different conclusions. Only one can be right. You think you are right. I think The Church is right.

 

[Marymog]

For a Catholic priesthood that's supposed to know it all, how is it that they don't know that 1 John 2:20-27 says that?

That's so ironic, lol. A priesthood of apostles (supposedly) that claim they are the only ones who have the anointing of the Holy Spirit to discern truth from error, who themselves cannot discern the truth of scripture that says all believers have that anointing.

Wrong again. It is the magisterium that is guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth. Not every Priest. Now I see why you dislike The Church so much. You have believed the lies that have been told to you.

 

[Marymog]

You can't understand my answer because you are in completely different paradigm of thought about what constitutes the church. I used to be in that paradigm of thought, too, before I was born again. I thought like you in terms of which official religious organization is the one true church. I thought of the church in terms of a doctrinal construct instead of what it actually is, a body of individual believers. When I got born again I could see that the church is composed of the real believers interspersed throughout the religious organizations of the world. Together, with our various gifts and callings we compose the body of Christ, the church.

I completly udnerstand your theory that The Church is invisible and that it is made up of "real believers interspersed throughout the religious organizations of the world". Scripture doesnt' support your theory. Scripture makes it clear that there are church elders who are in charge of our soul and we are to listen to them and they have the authority to decide who is to be excommunicated. Your theory is opposite of what Scripture teaches.

 

[Marymog]

Your problem is you're thinking in terms of what religious organization possesses the one true doctrinal construct. But it's not like that at this time in church history before the return of Christ. How this works is, by reading the Bible and through the witness of the Spirit, I know that the Baptists got this right, the Methodists are right about this, the Charismatics got this right, and so on.

The truth no longer resides in a single organization of theological thought and revelation anymore as it did in the days of the original apostles. You don't understand this because you're stuck in the paradigm of thinking that the true church is the one religious organization that possess the one true doctrinal construct. But it's not like that. Truth is the sum total of all the various fragments of truth spread out in all the various religious organizations of man. Paul warned the Ephesians that this would happen soon after his departure - men distorting the truth to draw people away to themselves (Acts 20:30). Prophecy fulfilled, beginning with the Catholic church. And now we're left to put the fragmented pieces of truth back together in our own hearts and minds and spirits.

Nope, that's not a problem. Jesus started a church that has authority over it's members. It has organizaton, heiarchy etc. You reject that. I don't AND Christianity hasn't rejected that for 2,000 years. For you see first there was Christ as the teacher of the Truth and the Apostles were his students. And then there were men who were students of the Apostles who were taugt the Truth. And then there were students of those men who were taught the Truth etc etc for 2,000 year.

Your theory says that that teaching authority ended sometime in the last 2,000 years. Sooooo when did that teaching authority end Ferris?