The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have a hard time understanding that Jesus Christ maintained a tangible body of flesh and bone after his resurrection, ....

YOU have a hard time understanding Apostle Paul said that Christ was "made a quickening spirit", which does NOT mean a flesh body!

1 Cor 15:45-47
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

KJV

You also have had ample chance to read that above Scripture from my posts, yet you still... REJECT THAT SCRIPTURE AS WRITTEN, showing others here what? It shows you have NO INTENTION of keeping to God's Word as written, but instead more interested in keeping to a false agenda from men.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,845
1,213
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is not true unless you believe in soul sleep. Physically dead believers are still alive spiritually, so the word zao can be used to describe them as being alive spiritually (their souls/spirits being alive) even though they are physically dead.


When a dead person becomes ZAO a resurrection took place. That proves Revelation 20:4 is speaking of a bodily resurrection not a spiritual one. They were spiritually alive and born again BEFORE they died.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul showed Jesus was made "a quickening spirit". Makes sense, since Lord Jesus before He was born through woman's womb was a Spirit, since He is part of The Godhead.
Jesus was the Word, not a Spirit. Jesus the Word appeared in His post resurrected body to Abraham. Abraham saw the nail prints and spear wound. Abraham did see Jesus in that day form. So you have no proof, but interpretation that Jesus as the Word had a physical form even before Genesis 1. Because from God's perspective the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus was not a literal Lamb. Yes the Word became flesh. Became Adam's flesh. Yet can you prove the Word did not have a physical body prior to His birth, even though He appeared in a physical body to Abraham? It was not a mirage. It was not a holographic image. It was God, the same yesterday, today, and forever. You have no proof beings with physical bodies cannot exist above us in the firmament. What cannot exist up there is Adam's dead sinful flesh. It was banned from the Garden and from God's presence, until the Cross. At the Cross, Jesus entered Abraham's bosom and gave those souls new permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Those OT redeemed now enjoy Paradise with physical bodies in the presence of the Lamb who also has a physical body.

In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul points out we no longer have to wait in death, sheol, Abraham's bosom, but we immediately have a permanent building not made by human genetics, like this tent of sin and death. This body is left behind in corruption, and raised into incorruption. This body is not changed. The soul changes bodies like a dirty diaper, for the royal garments of a king. A permanent incorruptible physical body.

Now we all wait for the putting on of the spirit, the robe of white. Revelation 7 points out a great multitude. They are already present, but until the 5th Seal, they do not have their white garments or robes of white. They are not naked, this is just symbolism. They probably have on modern clothing under these robes of white. That is all besides the point. They have had physical bodies, but the spirit, being put on, will not happen until the Second Coming, when those alive and remain on earth, join those already in Paradise.

The point about not being in Paradise was even the souls in Abraham's bosom could not even enter Paradise until they could do so physically. Why would Paradise be open only for souls, because all they were, were souls prior to the Cross, but not in Paradise. Why wait in Abraham's bosom in sheol, death?

Now if one tries to claim they had bodies in Abraham's bosom, I would ask why? I mean ancient Greek mythology gave bodies to those in the underworld. Even the NT in Revelation claims under the earth or in the sea as places of the dead and the living. Revelation 5.

But to use one verse to forbid every other verse in God's Word is not wise interpretation. When simply it meant Adam's dead flesh would never ever enter Paradise. Not that a physical body could not. Fulness of the Gentiles has been trying to argue the point that a physical resurrection does place a physical body in Paradise. That body is a different body because of sin and death, not because of physical or spiritual properties.

The physical is separate from the spiritual. The physical is a body, the spiritual is a robe of white over the physical body. That is why there is soul, body, and spirit. But you are trying to force the soul to only have a body on earth and only put on the spirit in Paradise. No, we can exist on earth in both a body and spirit, because Jesus did from conception to eternity. We can exist in Paradise with a physical body and a spirit. Jesus was never and will never be anything else than a soul, body, and spirit. And Jesus had that ability even in the Garden of Eden, as well as in Abraham's day. But call it what you want. What you point out will not change the facts.

BTW. Jesus as Lord is the entire Godhead. Lord would be the description of one entity without a separation in the separate person identity. The Bible uses Lord sparingly and does not over emphasizes that point. Paul declares that at the Second Coming we will then be forever with the Lord. Jesus on earth does not contradict that point. Unless one has the problem that Jesus is bound by the physical limits we think are currently in place. This goes hand in hand with Jesus in the Garden or with Abraham. Jesus is not bound by the physical aspects of His own creation. Jesus as Lord is always present on the throne in God. Just the same as God was on the Cross as the Lamb of God.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When a dead person becomes ZAO a resurrection took place. That proves Revelation 20:4 is speaking of a bodily resurrection not a spiritual one. They were spiritually alive and born again BEFORE they died.
You just completely ignored what I said and didn't address it at all. So, you're not interested in having an actual discussion then? Are you expecting me to address your points while you ignore mine? That's not going to happen.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm surprised that you can even speak English sometimes, since you obviously have poor reading skills.

Do you always try to project little ideas that pop into your head upon others, as if you 'think' you heard others speak to you? Do you hear voices? I never said the things you claim, you must be hearing voices.
You're the one trying to dump a physical body out of existence. If Adam was physical prior to sin, we are physical after sin in Paradise. Paradise is the same word as Garden. They are the same place as the New Jerusalem. Call it a physical upgrade evolution, or not. You seem to hate any physical association with Paradise. It started out with a bunch of trees on earth. Then it received an upgrade to a city with Abraham. Jesus gave it an urban city look by returning to a root form of Garden, Paradise. Then it became a giant square called the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. All physical upgrade descriptions.

None of these descriptions seem to be metaphor or symbolic of some unknown spiritual esoteric gibberish. All creation is physical and spiritual at the same time, except that which is corrupted by sin. Then it is merely physical and/or dead.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
5,845
1,213
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You just completely ignored what I said and didn't address it at all. So, you're not interested in having an actual discussion then? Are you expecting me to address your points while you ignore mine? That's not going to happen.


Your post was confused nonsense. I had to get the discussion back on track. You also don't get to choose my answers or how I choose to reply. Stop being so controlling. It won't work with me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, Scripture does NOT say any such thing.

1 Cor 15:37
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

KJV

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV




As for just how... we shall appear like Jesus in that time, did you not read the following?...

1 Cor 15:45-47
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

KJV

Did you not know that Jesus was made "a quickening spirit", and I emphasize the word "spirit" (Greek pneuma)??

Just what was Lord Jesus BEFORE He was born through woman's womb? Or don't you believe Jesus actually existed PRIOR to His being born through flesh woman?
"Earthly" flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom

Jesus Christ maintained a tangible "Eternal" body of "Glorified" flesh and bone, 100% "Spiritual"

You can't grasp the fact that the future spiritual body is tangible, as you promote spiritual as being a ghost that's not tangible "Wrong"
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Simple.

Paul wasn't talking about the Cross, he was talking about the Resurrection of Christ.

Two different things, at two different times; 1 Cor. 15 only refers to the Resurrection of Christ, followed by the Resurrection of the Saints upon Christ's return.

Nowhere does it refer to the Cross.
Really semantic of you.

We should never mention the Cross on good Friday nor Easter Sunday. They are totally foreign concepts from each other. The only time to mention the Cross would be on Wednesday, when the Cross was placed into the ground.

Good Friday should only talk about the grave because Jesus was in the tomb Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.

I use the Cross because it represents the death, burial, and resurrection. Without the Cross there would be no Christ or Messiah.

So avoid the point and go hyper literal?

Matthew 27 has a resurrection of physical bodies from physical graves the instant Jesus said it was finished. That is directly related to the Cross. They are the firstfruits. My post are already too long. You want me to spell every thing out, for you, and make them longer because you do not understand how the word "Cross" is used? You can deny the OT redeemed were resurrected that week all you want. I will accept God's Word. Christ presented the whole OT congregation of redeemed souls in physical bodies to God as the firstfruits. That is what Paul claims. You can take that up with Paul in spirit, as you probably don't want to wait to do so physically. Especially since you believe it won't be for a very, very, very long time.

Wait, you think Jesus only presented Himself and then waits thousands of years for the rest? Why did He welcome Stephen in Acts 7:55-56?

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Oh? I see. You are like those stoning him who thought he just saw a vision of some event thousands of years away, and you left him for dead?

Paul saw Jesus sitting. Stephen saw Jesus standing. I guess that means nothing, but personal opinion between Paul and Stephen?
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No human body will survive the Lord's last day judgement in fire

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
So the Second Coming will not be like Lot?

"Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I already showed Scripture that shoots that false doctrine down to the dumps.
You mean this one:

"And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"

It does not say:

"And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that spirit that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"

Even the verse you quoted says "body" and not "spirit".

Adding the word "spiritual" to "body" does not make it any less a body. Remember soul, body, and spirit? Which word refers to the physical and which word refers to the spiritual?

You hearing VOICES in your head again?

I have NEVER agreed to men's false doctrine of a Pre-tribulation Rapture. You well know that too, which means you are now bearing... FALSE WITNESS, making up LIES.

Brethren in Christ:
What Timothy is pointing to is false Pre-trib Rapture's false idea that Jesus raptures His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation", and then after His return they remain in Heaven off the ruling with Him over the wicked! That FALSE doctrine from devils, is SO EASY TO SHOW IT IS FALSE...

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals of it: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and language, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Webster

Yal like that Webster Bible version? (1833)
So Revelation 5 happens after Revelation 19?

I never mentioned the rapture. How did those in Revelation 5 get into heaven prior to the first Seal being opened?

Are you sure you have the right people coming to earth? You deny any one goes to heaven prior to the seals being opened, no?

If you are going to be strict on your timing here how did these people have physical bodies before the 1st Seal is opened? Are you sure they are talking about the 1,000 years or after the NHNE?

I think it is easier to prove there were physical bodies present in Paradise even before the first Seal, than to claim any timing of them being on earth, at a specific time.
 
Last edited:

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your post was confused nonsense. I had to get the discussion back on track. You also don't get to choose my answers or how I choose to reply. Stop being so controlling. It won't work with me.
Why don't you just ask for clarification if you don't understand something I said? Is that too hard for you?

What exactly is hard to understand about the concept of the spirits and souls of physically/bodily dead (and not yet bodily resurrected) people being alive (zao)? You're acting as if someone who has physically/bodily died can't be considered alive (zao) until they've been bodily resurrected, but that is not the case. Only someone who believes in soul sleep would claim that. I don't think what I'm saying here should be hard to grasp, so I question whether you're even trying.
 
Last edited:

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who made you the judge? Is being perfect a requirement to be a child of God? Clearly not. They all had faith in God, but they were sinners just like everyone else. But, Lot was not unrepentant regarding his sins.

Lot did not represent a third group. You're making that up in your own imagination. Scripture says that he was righteous. Not perfect or sinless, but righteous in God's eyes because he had faith. He was a sinner just like we all are, but he hated sin just like we all should.

2 Peter 2:7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Thank God you are not the judge or Lot would have a problem on the day of judgment. But, he has no worries since, in God's eyes, Lot was a righteous man.
You are judging as well, no?

Was Lot righteous because of his own righteousness, or because of God's imputed righteousness? Lot was not burned up, one group. Lot did not seek out Abraham, a second group. Lot remained a drunk and taken by incest, a third group. What verse claims Lot had faith? You can claim all of humanity is burned to a crisp, but without any verses from God's Word.

I was the one that claims all will not be burned up like you do, but spared physically. They live on earth, not as part of the church glorified, but as redeemed, the camp of the saints.
 
Last edited:

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What part of the "image of the heavenly" that Apostle Paul taught do you NOT understand??

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

What is it with you, I have continually posted that evidence directly from Apostle Paul several times on this Forum, so I KNOW you've had chance to read that!

Yet you flat deny... that above Scripture! How do you think that makes you appear to others here who can read that in its simplicity??
The image of the heavenly is a permanent incorruptible physical body.

The image of the earthly is a dead corruptible physical body.

2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

You also have had ample chance to read that above Scripture from my posts, yet you still... REJECT THAT SCRIPTURE AS WRITTEN, showing others here what? It shows you have NO INTENTION of keeping to God's Word as written, but instead more interested in keeping to a false agenda from men.
I agree that Jesus as Lord is spirit. Jesus as Christ and Prince, is physical. Surely a Spirit did not die on the Cross, Yet God was on the Cross that day as much as Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Do you deny God was the Word and with the Word? I think some see it as a one way relationship. Not sure why?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are judging as well, no?
No, I'm not. Scripture says he was a righteous man, so I agree with that. How is that judging? You are judging by contradicting scripture and trying to say he wasn't a righteous man. All you're doing is showing that he was a sinner as all of us are. That doesn't prove he was part of some imaginary third group. So, he's not part of a third group as you imagine, he's part of those who are saved. Scripture would not refer to him as being righteous if he wasn't saved.

Was Lot righteous because of his own righteousness, or because of God's imputed righteousness?
Because of God's imputed righteousness, of course. And that's what I said. Are you reading everything I'm saying?

Lot was not burned up, one group. Lot did not seek out Abraham, a second group. Lot remained a drunk and taken by incest, a third group. What verse claims Lot had faith? You can claim all of humanity is burned to a crisp, but without any verses from God's Word.
LOL. Do you have any spiritual discernment whatsoever? Do you actually think scripture would call Lot a righteous man who was troubled by all the evil going on around him in Sodom if he didn't have faith? Come on. Think.

I was the one that claims all will not be burned up like you do, but spared physically. They live on earth, not as part of the church glorified, but as redeemed, the camp of the saints.
There is no basis for believing that. Scripture never teaches this third group that you have invented in your own mind. Jesus clearly said that "whoever is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). So, from His perspective there are two groups: saved (those with Him) and lost (those against Him). That's why every time He talked about people being judged He separated them into two groups (wheat and tares, good fish and bad fish, sheep and goats, wicked and righteous, etc.).
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The image of the heavenly is a permanent incorruptible physical body.

The image of the earthly is a dead corruptible physical body.

2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
That is a promise that we have, but it will not be reality until the last trumpet sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

By claiming that anyone besides Christ has yet been bodily changed and made imperishable (incorruptible) and immortal you are blatantly contradicting the above passage. We all will be changed at the same time to have imperishable (incorruptible), immortal bodies. Paul made the order clear in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. The first to be resurrected and have an immortal body was Christ. Next in order to be resurrected unto immortality are those who belong to Christ at His second coming. Claiming that anyone besides Christ has been changed to have an imperishable/incorruptible/immortal body before His coming at the last trumpet is a case of not accepting what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why don't you just ask for clarification if you don't understand something I said? Is that too hard for you?

What exactly is hard to understand about the concept of the spirits and souls of physically/bodily dead (and not yet bodily resurrected) people being alive (zao)? You're acting as if someone who has physically/bodily died can't be considered alive (zao) until they've been bodily resurrected, but that is not the case. Only someone who believes in soul sleep would claim that. I don't think what I'm saying here should be hard to grasp, so I question whether you're even trying.
But they were living souls between being beheaded and being resurrected. Do you think no time passed? Why would living souls be resurrected still as living souls. The difference is that these living souls received physical bodies.

You are arguing they were dead souls that were just given life. (Notice I am not accusing you of saying that, but you pointed out soul sleep, yourself) Because a living soul just staying a living soul is not a resurrection under any definition. There is literally no change at all, if you deny a physical body.

The whole point is that they physically died, there was a state of a soul, then a resurrection. A resurrection is physical because that is the only change to a living soul. Living souls stopped being a thing back in 30AD, when they all came out of their graves with physical bodies. Why even try to place the soul back into such a state?

We have a condition here, because those beheaded do not get a resurrection into Paradise, even if you disagree. No soul after the 7th Trumpet goes to Paradise. I know you don't think there are 42 months after the 7th Trumpet. But you have no proof a soul remains without change into something else than just a soul. Even if you claim souls don't have bodies now, what do you think happens after the 7th Trumpet? Surely not just a soul?

But as an Amil, you cannot even place Revelation 20:4 at the end. You place it at the Resurrection in 30AD. You don't ever give them bodies, do you? They were resurrected in 30AD, but actually died at the Second Coming during Satan's alledged "little season". Weird, but that is Amil chronology.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So the Second Coming will not be like Lot?

"Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."
When Jesus returns its "Fire Time" (The End)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, I'm not. Scripture says he was a righteous man, so I agree with that. How is that judging? You are judging by contradicting scripture and trying to say he wasn't a righteous man. All you're doing is showing that he was a sinner as all of us are. That doesn't prove he was part of some imaginary third group. So, he's not part of a third group as you imagine, he's part of those who are saved. Scripture would not refer to him as being righteous if he wasn't saved.

Because of God's imputed righteousness, of course. And that's what I said. Are you reading everything I'm saying?

LOL. Do you have any spiritual discernment whatsoever? Do you actually think scripture would call Lot a righteous man who was troubled by all the evil going on around him in Sodom if he didn't have faith? Come on. Think.

There is no basis for believing that. Scripture never teaches this third group that you have invented in your own mind. Jesus clearly said that "whoever is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). So, from His perspective there are two groups: saved (those with Him) and lost (those against Him). That's why every time He talked about people being judged He separated them into two groups (wheat and tares, good fish and bad fish, sheep and goats, wicked and righteous, etc.).
Obviously heaven and earth, 2 groups.

So those in the LOF are not a third group. We will just pretend they are not on earth or in heaven.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is a promise that we have, but it will not be reality until the last trumpet sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

By claiming that anyone besides Christ has yet been bodily changed and made imperishable (incorruptible) and immortal you are blatantly contradicting the above passage. We all will be changed at the same time to have imperishable (incorruptible), immortal bodies. Paul made the order clear in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. The first to be resurrected and have an immortal body was Christ. Next in order to be resurrected unto immortality are those who belong to Christ at His second coming. Claiming that anyone besides Christ has been changed to have an imperishable/incorruptible/immortal body before His coming at the last trumpet is a case of not accepting what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

Are you calling those in Christ, the dead? Only those in Adam's flesh are dead. This verse does not really mention any one physically dead at all. It is comparing the dead on earth with those alive in Paradise.

"For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

You and I are the current dead. Paul is no longer tasting death. Paul is not even a "we" any more. This verse is just talking about those alive on earth raised from the dead of Adam's flesh and blood. Can you convince a stranger off the street what those words means, if you tell them they are dead in the wages of sin? Are you going to explain to them what you think (your opinion) those words mean to you, or what is actually written? As written we are the dead that will be raised and changed.

The context of the chapter are those dead here on earth in Adam's flesh contrasted with the heavenly (you leave out permanent physical body) . Only the dead on earth in Adam's flesh are raised from that dead earthly state.

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

This does not imply that a resurrection has to wait for a proper moment in time. That is your theological bias. All of Adam's flesh has to be raised and changed, it is the dead earthly adamic physical body. Paul is just pointing out even those alive need a resurrection out of this dead flesh.

Those in Christ are no longer the dead. They are the Resurrection and the Life. If not they are dead in sheol, and when is their resurrection? "The rest of the dead (those in sheol) do not live again until the thousand years are over". Notice I am using Scripture to compare Scripture. I am not even claiming this is talking about the trumpet sound at all. I am saying there is a particular resurrection 1,000 years after an unrelated event that is still future because it certainly was not prior to the writing of this chapter. My point is timing is not really a thing in this chapter other than a future coming of Christ. But if you are trying to place it all at the same time, there are other Scriptures that state otherwise.

You are going to be hard pressed to find in this chapter, a verse that states some are waiting.