The Insanity of the "right" to have guns!

[Ronald David Bruno]

Redutio ad absurdem!

Jesus said to turn the other cheek and to love our neighbor as our self. If you can't do your best to live by His clear directions how can you call yourself a Christian?

I agree

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

But you think God is not sovereign to protect you physically based on what you said before

Don't make false accusations and attack who I am and distory what I said. God is sovereign over all. He does protect me, but He also allows evil for a purpose. It is also our responsibility to take care of ourselves and families. I have complete faith that He will care for me and always has.
I just gave a report of the destructive state of the world and exposed the perpetrators. I personally don't own a gun - don't need one. But I believe in the right to own a gun. If you do, you should be responsible, screened and have self control. The scenario that was posed was just a hypothetical situation (if I did own one).

 

[Jim B]

I own several guns and have owned guns since I was a young man. There is nothing inherently evil about a gun, any more than an axe or a chef's knife is inherently evil. It is the person using the gun, axe, knife who is responsible for using it safely and correctly.

However, that does not mean that the Second Amendment gives the right for anyone to use a gun as they see fit. Their ownership and use must be controlled by the government. That is why it is in the Constitution.

 

[Wrangler]

Redutio ad absurdem!

Which is a valid technique to show the flaws of an argument; it is not a fallacy of argumentation. @Ronald David Bruno's point is valid. What is your reason for not opposing the elimination of police and military? Why is it OK for some violence but not other violence?

 

[Jim B]

View attachment 22678
911!

I have seen many pictures of the 9/11 tragedy, so I don't believe this one is authentic.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Seeing my position is Non-Violence, this means I don’t believe in using physical force with the intent to hurt, damage, or kill a person.

That is good, neither do I. You don't know ir anyone on this forum so don't imply that you do.
So if robbers came in your home and raped your wife and daughter, you'd stand passive and do nothing, maybe call the police if your could. You would have to resort to violence to overcome violence - in a second, do whatever you could to stop them or let it happen and wait for the authorities to pronounce you all dead at the the scene. These crimes happen and we don't always have time to wait for the police.
You could do nothing and God will judge them. Your choice.

Sorry, you don’t agree. You believe in Violence by self defense and you don’t believe Jesus taught Non-Violence. If you believed Jesus did teach Non-Violence, then you wouldn’t believe in the way you do now.

Peace, love, kindness, gentleness, joy, hope, faith, goodness, self control is all righteous and godly behavior.
Was Samson given strength to violently kill his foes?
Was it necessary for David to put a rock in his sling, spin it around and with as much force as he could, send off as a deadly projectile into Goliath's head enough to crack his skull? God thought so. God's judgment towards evil has not changed, for God does not change.
Killing billions in the Great Tribulation will be quite violent - so says the Bible.

 

[Jim B]

Which is a valid technique to show the flaws of an argument; it is not a fallacy of argumentation. @Ronald David Bruno's point is valid. What is your reason for not opposing the elimination of police and military? Why is it OK for some violence but not other violence?

Because the police and military are necessary to maintain law and order in society. Without them violence rules.

The 2nd Amendment says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." A well regulated militia is a good definition of the police and military.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You still do not get it do you and I answered it for you back in post #344. Let me add a bit more

As I said in that previous post.'...Luke 22:35-38 is about the necessity of the disciplines to have weapons and other items of survival after Christ spoke of the prophecy having to be fulfilled, by him dying on the Cross'

He was 'counted as one/amongst the transgressors' meaning as sin for us, as a man who bore the sins for us and to die on the Cross, to fulfill prophecy, and thus this is what was concerning him, was definitely coming to an end or fulfillment, again by his death on the Cross.(Foot stomping)

What then do you still not understand in these passages?

First, as to your foot stomping: We have to remember that God used evil men to accomplish His purposes and He did not use His own disciples to kill the Savior (if you are implying that His death by violence upon the cross was a point that God is endorsing His believers to use violence).

Second, I am not against Jesus saying we can take a money bag, and knapsack and even a sword (Not a gun).

Maybe if a person has been watching too much Assassin 33AD (A Christian Time Travel Film), they might think guns may have existed in a parallel timeline within the time period of Jesus.

Trailer:

Possible Full Movie:

But we know that this film is simply fiction.

But Jesus told us the purpose of the swords in that they were to fulfill prophecy. You immediately jump to the conclusion that it is for Violence by self defense when Jesus already gave us the prohibition of the sword for that purpose involving Peter chopping off Malchus’ ear. Jesus did not later say that this was an isolated incident involving Peter and he wanted the disciples to take up their swords in self defense on other occasions. This is what you would like to be in the Bible (that simply does not exist). If we are to go strictly by Scripture, the Lord is making it clear that he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. This means that Jesus idea of the use of the sword is not for violent purposes involving humans.

Now, for provisions (like a money bag, knapsack, and a sword): Could the sword be used to hunt, chop wood, and or to protect oneself from the animal kingdom (While in the wild)? Yes. I can imagine one could do that and I don’t really see a problem in that. But I don’t think it is something that God is stressing as the most important thing for us to do today. It also would be odd for folks to see us carrying around a sword all the time, too. Could you take your sword everywhere you go? Would your job allow you to carry a sword? How about on a flight? What about going to a restaurant? How about birthday parties involving your friend’s kids at church? If you just showed up carrying a sword on your belt, I think people would be worried a little. Jesus did not say to carry a cross bow and arrows (Which would be more close to a gun). So again, you are enforcing your own interpretation upon the text that does not exist. Guns did not exist back then. So Jesus was not talking about a gun.

 

[APAK]

First, as to your foot stomping: We have to remember that God used evil men to accomplish His purposes and He did not use His own disciples to kill the Savior (if you are implying that His death by violence upon the cross was a point that God is endorsing His believers to use violence).

Second, I am not against Jesus saying we can take a money bag, and knapsack and even a sword (Not a gun).

Maybe if a person has been watching too much Assassin 33AD (A Christian Time Travel Film), they might think guns may have existed in a parallel timeline within the time period of Jesus.

Wow I cannot tell if you acknowledged what I wrote or not. Too much fruit and nuts and insufficient meat for me. You do seem to get carried away imo. I was just asking a query about the scripture in question...nothing more.

Later

 

[Grailhunter]

I have seen many pictures of the 9/11 tragedy, so I don't believe this one is authentic.

Well ya-na I did not say it was authentic. It did show up on the news.
This one is not authentic either...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is good, neither do I. You don't know ir anyone on this forum so don't imply that you do. So if robbers came in your home and raped your wife and daughter,

First, I don’t have a daughter. Second, please leave me out of of your dark imagination. I rebuke your words in the name of Jesus Christ, and I ask for protection upon my family in the name of Jesus Christ. But you don’t seem to care about that. All you care about is making your point even if you speak evil words against me and my family to do it. You again don’t seem to believe Romans 8:28 that all things work together for good to those who love God.

you'd stand passive and do nothing, maybe call the police if your could.

You are either not reading my posts are you have forgotten what I said. I already told you before that I believe in using physical force or resistance against attackers but this would not be done in a way that would harm the other person or kill them. There are ways to stop intruders without hurting or killing them.

You would have to resort to violence to overcome violence - in a second, do whatever you could to stop them or let it happen and wait for the authorities to pronounce you all dead at the the scene. These crimes happen and we don't always have time to wait for the police.
You could do nothing and God will judge them. Your choice.

Again, you don’t seem to believe Romans 8:28.

Peace, love, kindness, gentleness, joy, hope, faith, goodness, self control is all righteous and godly behavior.

You don’t love your enemies. You just shoot them.
You don’t have faith (you don’t believe) in the teachings of Jesus Christ involving Non-Violence.

Was Samson given strength to violently kill his foes?
Was it necessary for David to put a rock in his sling, spin it around and with as much force as he could, send off as a deadly projectile into Goliath's head enough to crack his skull? God thought so. God's judgment towards evil has not changed, for God does not change.
Killing billions in the Great Tribulation will be quite violent - so says the Bible.

Not applicable. They lived in the time of the Old Testament before Jesus came to this Earth and gave us New Covenant teachings (Which involve Non-Violence).

 

[Taken]

The Insanity of the "right" to have guns!
OP ^

Utter ignorance.
God has given Every man authority, ie a RIGHT, to choose His own master.

When a man chooses a DICTATOR master, that master will Dictate that which a man CAN and CAN NOT Have, MUST DO and CAN NOT DO.

God taught “preparedness”.
Be “prepared” for the Thief in the night.
Be “prepared” to Take care of your own.
God did not “outlaw” weapons.
Jesus the TRUTH taught, if you have NOT a weapon.....Buy one!

Every man shall bear his own burden.

Not “prepared” and a Thief, Rapist, Murderer, comes prowling, sneaking in without your knowledge? You bear the consequences for NOT being “Prepared”.

You perhaps THINK, it a good idea for your master to “outlaw” weapons?

And you shall “feel” “safe and at peace”?

Funny, Because the person who is a Thief, Rapist, Murderer...IS NOT THE SAME PERSON, WHO abides by the Law!

You THINK “all of a sudden” he will Abide by the “law” of not having a weapon when he breaks in to steal, rape, murder?

Naive!

And IFY, US government officials are not Masters, they are Servants.
You serve your master, and citizens in the US are free to choose their Master.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Don't make false accusations and attack who I am and distory what I said. God is sovereign over all. He does protect me, but He also allows evil for a purpose. It is also our responsibility to take care of ourselves and families. I have complete faith that He will care for me and always has.
I just gave a report of the destructive state of the world and exposed the perpetrators. I personally don't own a gun - don't need one. But I believe in the right to own a gun. If you do, you should be responsible, screened and have self control. The scenario that was posed was just a hypothetical situation (if I did own one).

If you believe GOD can protect you, then why not me? You said before that others can harm our physical bodies but not our souls (Which implies that we are not protected). Note: I believe Christians can be persecuted and even killed for God’s purposes, but I also believe they can be protected by GOD, too. All things work together for good to those who love God.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have seen many pictures of the 9/11 tragedy, so I don't believe this one is authentic.

This one is not authentic either...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wow I cannot tell if you acknowledged what I wrote or not. Too much fruit and nuts and insufficient meat for me. You do seem to get carried away imo. I was just asking a query about the scripture in question...nothing more.

Later

Your question was loaded in the fact that you did not think I understood the passage. I gave you my understanding on what Jesus meant.
In short, I don’t believe Jesus is saying for believers today to take up a literal sword or a gun. If applicable: The supplies Jesus told the disciples about (like a sword) would be more fitting for the early church because a sword would be suitable to that culture and not ours. But again, even if this sword was to be carried by the apostles (according to the Lord’s instruction), this sword was to not be used in violence against other humans because of what we know by Jesus’ multi-point rebuke of Peter’s use of the sword in violence. Nowhere does Jesus later say this was an isolated incident and that we can use the sword in violence by self defense for other occasions. So the logical conclusion is that the sword was for other reasons like chopping wood, hunting, and or protecting yourself from the animal kingdom in the wild (seeing that the disciples had to travel in the wild). Many of us live in suburbs. So carrying a sword as one walks down a suburb street would be weird and cause concern among your neighbors. Paul strived to be like those he was around to win them for Christ. I think carrying a sword around would only make people feel threatened. If it was a gun, I don’t think they would feel any better.

 

[Grailhunter]

First, readers here need to know about your falsely stated beliefs. By what you told me in another thread before, you fall into the classified liberal camp because you believe we come from apes (Evolution), you think the flood was local (regional), and you reject certain words (or portions) in the Bible are inspired by God (like Luke 14:26, Revelation 6:13, etcetera), and you don't seem to understand that witchcraft was condemned in the Bible. So I am not surprised you don't understand the Bible on this topic (because you reject many portions of it).

Secondly, on this topic: I believe you are thinking from a carnal and worldly perspective. You fail to understand that there are God ministers of justice as mentioned in Romans 13:6 (cf. Romans 13:1-5). These ministers of justice are the unbelieving governments of this world (all nations - including America; See: “Side Note” below) who execute justice or to punish those who do evil. So God can use unbelieving nations to accomplish His purposes of justice and to keep enemy nations at bay. True Bible Believing Christians have a different role, office, job, and or function within this world, than the unbelieving authorities that carry out justice (as God's ministers of justice). Remember, GOD used an unbelieving nation (Assyria) to punish Israel for their sins in the Old Testament. It does not mean Assyria were believers and or saved or walking in God's will. Saul's men who wanted to kill David had prophesied by God's Spirit. It does not mean Saul's men were saved or in God's will. God was merely using them despite themselves. In other words, God is able to use people even if they are not saved or even if they are not walking in His will.

In Conclusion:

God knows that the true Bible Believing Christians are few in number. Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. So God knows that the many (nations or majority of the world) is not going to follow Him exactly in what He says. They may pay lip service to Him, but they are not exactly in His will. But God can use unbelieving governments and it's loyal people to carry out His will in protecting our nation (even if they may profess to believe in the God of the bible). Christians have only one master, and that's Jesus Christ, but many Christians today have blurred the lines of Christianity with American nationalism.

Side Note on America:

While I am blessed by God to be in a country with so many freedoms, and there many wonderful and kind people here, this does not mean that they all believe in the God of the Bible (even if some of them pay lip service that they do). Anyways, see this article here to learn more about what Americans believe. See this article here about how our founding fathers were Freemasons.

Ok, so I have time to respond to you.
Some people are liars....some would rather lie than tell the truth....some have no interest in truth.
You twist the scriptures and twist what people say to you. And I don't think you are just targeting me....People here see what you do, they can see your character, what you are. You are not fooling anyone.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok, so I have time to respond to you.
Some people are liars....some would rather lie than tell the truth....some have no interest in truth.
You twist the scriptures and twist what people say to you. And I don't think you are just targeting me....People here see what you do, they can see your character, what you are. You are not fooling anyone.

This is just a mindless ad hominem. You need to provide post numbers and provide quotes, and make your case. If you don’t do so, then you are just making a baseless accusation because you cannot defend your belief on this topic involving Scripture. In the past on my many discussions involving Scripture on Christian forums: If I have misunderstood somebody in what they said, and they brought that to my attention, I was willing to apologize. I have done it many times. But to purposely misrepresent somebody? That’s not my style because my soul is at stake in telling the truth before God. I can only go by what people say and sometimes they don’t always communicate correctly what they are thinking.

Anyways, getting back on the topic: I don’t believe anyone here has defended their position of Violent Self Defense using the New Testament in this thread. It’s not possible because no actual New Testament Scripture directly teaches it.

Luke 22:36 seems to be the primary verse many folks here seem to latch on to (even when the context does not support violent self defense). The context actually supports Non-Violence because we see Jesus rebuke Peter for using his sword violently to protect His master.

 

[Grailhunter]

This is just a mindless ad hominem. You need to provide post numbers and provide quotes, and make your case. If you don’t do so, then you are just making a baseless accusation because you cannot defend your belief on this topic involving Scripture. In the past on my many discussions involving Scripture on Christian forums: If I have misunderstood somebody in what they said, and they bring that to my attention, I am willing to apologize. I have done it many times. But to purposely misrepresent somebody? That’s not my style because my soul is at stake in telling the truth before God. I can only go by what people say and sometimes they don’t always communicate correctly what they are thinking.

Anyways, getting back on the topic: I don’t believe anyone here has defended their position of Violent Self Defense using the New Testament in this thread. It’s not possible because no actual New Testament Scripture directly teaches it.

Luke 22:36 seems to be the only verse many folks here seem to latch on to (even when the context does not support violent self defense).

What so you have more to twist? I guess you have not read this thread. Your likes show how many people agree with you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What so you have more to twist?

As I suspected. You don’t really have a case to make and you are just mindlessly throwing around an ad hominem.
I believe many do this because they don’t really have any real argument to defend their position with Scripture involving the OP topic.

I guess you have not read this thread. Your likes show how many people agree with you.

Truth is not based upon some kind of approval rating by others.

In any event, may the Lord’s good ways shine upon you (even if we disagree).

 

[amigo de christo]

I think I'm gonna be sick.

the war rages on my friend . How long i warned against that seeker friendly which has totally destroyed the churches
from within . ITS Now why the enemy has such a strong hold . Watch this my friend . I have been also trying
to remind us true persecutions are at the door for the true lambs . Time is running its course my friend .
And we better KNOW and FOLLOW CHRIST and endure faithful unto HE unto the end . Thus as i love to also remind
Let us be planted daily in those bibles so as we can grow in wisdom through faith in Christ .