The Popular False Justification and False Sanctification View Today.

[Bible Highlighter]

Amen! In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

G1344 - dikaioō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

James 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified (shown to be righteous) by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

If James is saying that Abraham was "accounted as righteous" by works, then Paul and James are in contradiction to one another, but there are no contradictions in God's Word. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:21 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

James 2:24 - You see then that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by faith only, which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works (which is not salvic faith). James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says/claims (key word) he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. Works-salvationists just cannot seem to grasp this.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

The same Greek word dikaioō (for the English word justified) is used for both James 2:24, and Romans 3:28. There is only ONE English word “justified” referring to both faith and works in James 2:24, and this same word is used in Romans 3:28 to talk about being justified by faith (Which is a salvation issue). So you are not being consistent with the word here. You are either ignoring this point willfully (hoping nobody will catch it), or you are not reading the point that I made, or it is a spiritual darkness that has covered over your eyes like a veil.

For if James 2:24 is talking about “justified” as being non-salvific, then you must believe James is also referring to a type of justification by faith that is non-salvific, too. Why? Because James is using the same word “justified” for both faith and works in the same verse. So then you must read Romans 3:28 as being non-salvific if you believe James 2:24 is non-salvific when using the same word justified. So you and your Protestant promoters have not really explained away this contradiction or problem.

 

[savedbygrace1]

So what do you do with verses like Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1?
Whenever I bring these up to Protestants, they always seem to either ignore them or twist them to say something else.
That’s why you are not really Bible alone as your sole guide for all matters of faith and living by faith.
Just as the Catholics go by their traditions that override their reading of the Bible, most Protestants have their traditions which undo the Word of God.

You see, unlike you I will not run away from answering:
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Rom6:6&7

So Paul explains what he means by being a slave to sin, it is if you are ruled by sin. If you are a slave to sin it leads to death(rom6:16) This confirms 1John3:9 John is meaning a lifestyle of sin, being dominated by sin, for if he meant any sin at all we are all doomed, for none are sinless! Therefore, to Paul if sin dominates your life, you live a lifestyle of sin, you are a slave to sin, you are ruled by sin.

However:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John1:8


Here John is referring to the fact no believer will ever be without sin, for no believer could possibly perfectly obey the letter of God’s laws. Paul would obviously agree with that. So you have to discern the two different ways sin is written of in the scriptures


Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Here is your problem, you take random verses literally without considering them or reading the bible as one cohesive whole. If you had literally crucified your flesh completely in respect of sin, you would never commit sin would you. So, do you not belong to Christ?

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

The above is a journey the believer is on, do you perfectly obey the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break? You would have to of done, if you do not accept the verse is a journey the believer is on.
I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness Romans6:19

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

Once again, please learn to discern what is written. You are not done with sin are you, do I really need to go over all of that again with you? You become done to being a slave of sin, you never will be completely sin free!

Your problem, and I will repeat it is, you cannot live up to the random scriptures you quote with shallow literalistic understanding. Why not just be humble and admit it when you quote the letter as you do. So now, lets take other scripture. Paul said the Corinthians were carnally minded, mere infants in the faith, and yet he referred to them as : The church of God in Corinth. Were they sin free? You need to read the bible as one cohesive whole, just grabbing a few verses in isolation and taking a literalistic approach to them does not work, it is spiritual immaturity

 

[mailmandan]

The same Greek word dikaioō (for the English word justified) is used for both James 2:24, and Romans 3:28. There is only ONE English word “justified” referring to both faith and works in James 2:24, and this same word is used in Romans 3:28 to talk about being justified by faith (Which is a salvation issue). So you are not being consistent with the word here. You are either ignoring this point willfully (hoping nobody will catch it), or you are not reading the point that I made, or it is a spiritual darkness that has covered over your eyes like a veil.

For if James 2:24 is talking about “justified” as being non-salvific, then you must believe James is also referring to a type of justification by faith that is non-salvific, too. Why? Because James is using the same word “justified” for both faith and works in the same verse.
So you and your Protestant promoters have not really explained away this contradiction or problem.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You see, unlike you I will not run away from answering:
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Rom6:6&7

So Paul explains what he means by being a slave to sin, it is if you are ruled by sin. If you are a slave to sin it leads to death(rom6:16) This confirms 1John3:9 John is meaning a lifestyle of sin, being dominated by sin, for if he meant any sin at all we are all doomed, for none are sinless!

The problem is… you and every other Protestant rarely explains the type of life that you live on a daily basis that would categorize this so called “not ruled by sin.”

In fact, this is one of the many Protestant contradictory sayings. You say you are not ruled by sin, and then you contradict that statement by saying that don’t mean every sin. This would not be a contradiction if you believe in 1 John 5:16, and Matthew 5:22 AMP.

Can you give us a false believer’s life ruled by sin?
Then can you give us a daily account or weekly account of a true believer who is not ruled by sin and yet give us an account of the sins that they do that would not place them under the category that is called “not ruled by sin”?

My guess is: You will not answer this because it simply is a mirage or an illusion that Protestants have made up.

Therefore, to Paul if sin dominates your life, you live a lifestyle of sin, you are a slave to sin, you are ruled by sin.

Jesus says, “whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34).
Jesus did not say he that commits lots of sins or practices various sins is a slave to sin.
Jesus simply said he that commits sin (singular) is a slave to sin.

However:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John1:8

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Don’t do it to help me, do it to help another person. You have NOT explained how the same word justified is used for both faith and works in James 2:24 (Thereby implying that there is kind of faith type justification that is non-salvific). To be consistent, you would have to conclude that the faith that justifies in Romans 3:28 is non-salvific. But you don’t like James 2:24, and so you seek to change the word “justified” to mean something else when that word is used for BOTH faith and works in relation to being justified.

James says we are not justified by faith alone. He is also referring to faith and not just works in James 2:24. So if you change the meaning of justified to be non-salvific in James 2:24, then you also must refer to how faith alone type justification is non-salvific. That’s why your interpretation does not make a lick of sense. Like Protestantism….. you contradict yourself. Then again, it should be no surprise. You are simply following Protestantism blindly in what it says over what the Bible says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John1:8

1 John 1:8 is a warning to brethren about the false gnostic belief that denies the existence of sin. So 1 John 1:8 is saying, if we say we have no sin [if we do sin], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and so this verse would be a warning to them. Most Protestants believe sin physically exists, but they don’t think sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for all their future sin by a belief alone in Jesus as the Savior. So most Protestants are denying sin on a spiritual level.

But the Bible warns against this kind of false belief.

Proverbs 30:20 says:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.”

Isaiah 5:20
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

Malachi 2:17 AMP
“You have wearied the LORD with your words. But you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them,” or [by asking], “Where is the God of justice?”

Job 17:12 NASB
“They make night into day, saying, ‘The light is near,’ in the presence of darkness.”

Matthew 6:22-23 EXB
The eye is a light [the lamp] for the body. If your eyes are good [healthy; clear], your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are evil [unhealthy; bad], your whole body will be full of darkness. And if the only light you have [or light you think you have; light in you] is really darkness, then you have the worst darkness [how great that darkness is!].

2 Timothy 3:1-9
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.”

Jeremiah 23:1
“Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 23:21-23
“I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?”

Jude 1:4 NIV
“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about b long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

Titus 1:16
“They profess that they know God, but by their works they deny him, being abominable, disobedient, and unfit for any good work.”

Side Note:

Also, keep in mind that the context of 1 John 1:8 does not support the “we must always sin this side of Heaven” type interpretation, either. 1 John 2:3 basically says we can have an assurance that we can know the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Your belief says your not ruled by sin, and yet, you don’t mean every sin. So this means that technically you are not keeping His commandments. This is a dangerous place to be because 1 John 2:4 condemns your position.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You see, unlike you I will not run away from answering:
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Rom6:6&7

So Paul explains what he means by being a slave to sin, it is if you are ruled by sin. If you are a slave to sin it leads to death(rom6:16) This confirms 1John3:9 John is meaning a lifestyle of sin, being dominated by sin, for if he meant any sin at all we are all doomed, for none are sinless! Therefore, to Paul if sin dominates your life, you live a lifestyle of sin, you are a slave to sin, you are ruled by sin.

However:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John1:8


Here John is referring to the fact no believer will ever be without sin, for no believer could possibly perfectly obey the letter of God’s laws. Paul would obviously agree with that. So you have to discern the two different ways sin is written of in the scriptures


Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Here is your problem, you take random verses literally without considering them or reading the bible as one cohesive whole. If you had literally crucified your flesh completely in respect of sin, you would never commit sin would you. So, do you not belong to Christ?

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

The above is a journey the believer is on, do you perfectly obey the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break? You would have to of done, if you do not accept the verse is a journey the believer is on.
I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness Romans6:19

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

Once again, please learn to discern what is written. You are not done with sin are you, do I really need to go over all of that again with you? You become done to being a slave of sin, you never will be completely sin free!

Your problem, and I will repeat it is, you cannot live up to the random scriptures you quote with shallow literalistic understanding. Why not just be humble and admit it when you quote the letter as you do. So now, lets take other scripture. Paul said the Corinthians were carnally minded, mere infants in the faith, and yet he referred to them as : The church of God in Corinth. Were they sin free? You need to read the bible as one cohesive whole, just grabbing a few verses in isolation and taking a literalistic approach to them does not work, it is spiritual immaturity

Unlike you…. I back up my questions with Scripture and I strive not to ask questions out of thin air or my thoughts alone. If you ask your question based upon a verse or a certain set of verses, then we have something to talk about. Your question is simply focused on the sayings of Protestants. I don’t trust all of the sayings of Protestants because many of their claims are false. So you have to back up your questions with Scripture. But if you were paying attention, I did reply to you with Scripture as an answer. You just have not been listening. The proof is that you said yourself that you ignored one of my longer posts.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus was the last Prophet under the Law of Old Covenant. He taught the Law in which this parable is an example.

When Jesus died on the Cross and rose from the dead, He ushered in a New Covenant in His Blood.

Grace came to man through the "doing" of Christ. He has fulfilled all the requirements of the Law for us by keeping it perfectly. By faith in Him we are granted by the Father the position of Law-keepers.

This parable is for us in the New Covenant an example of faithfulness, not doing, for Christ did the doing for us.

In the Covenant of Grace we are not called to "do." We are called to faithfulness as seen in this parable.

1 Tim. 6:12

"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

The calling is not "doing" it is "fighting the good fight of faith" in Christ. Holding on to that faith in Him.

"Fight the good fight of faith" is firmly holding on to faith in what Christ has done for us on the Cross.

Hi Charlie, been a while sir, nice conversing with you again. I agree through the new covenant, but we separate there. Only those who do, receive the gift. There are circumstances of course, some people are simply not capable, but the parable of the talents is a great way to understand that we have requirements. Are you aware of what our assignment is?

 

[mailmandan]

Don’t do it to help me, do it to help another person. You have NOT explained how the same word justified is used for both faith and works in James 2:24 (Thereby implying that there is kind of faith type justification that is non-salvific). To be consistent, you would have to conclude that the faith that justifies in Romans 3:28 is non-salvific. But you don’t like James 2:24, and so you seek to change the word “justified” to mean something else when that word is used for BOTH faith and works in relation to being justified.

James says we are not justified by faith alone. He is also referring to faith and not just works in James 2:24. So if you change the meaning of justified to be non-salvific in James 2:24, then you also must refer to how faith alone type justification is non-salvific. That’s why your interpretation does not make a lick of sense. Like Protestantism….. you contradict yourself.

I have already thoroughly explained multiple times how the same word "justified" is used for both faith and works in James 2:24 - "shown to be righteous." The word "justified" has more than one meaning in scripture, depending on the context, but you continue to ignore that.

Now if "faith only" in James 2:24 was authenric saving faith in Christ, then you would have a point, but it's not and you don't have a point. What James means by faith "alone" - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works (James 2:14, 24) is not to be confused with salvation through faith in Christ "alone" (faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation - Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

No contradiction on my part. You just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. Your anti-Protestant and type 2 works salvation crusade has clouded your mind and blinded you from the truth.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The mistake is thinking that being obedient to God obligates Him to justify/save us as a matter of debt owed to us. I think that's where @Bible Highlighter 's doctrine is in error. Instead, works are the manifestation of the faith that solicits justification/salvation as a reward of that faith, not as a reward of debt owed us for the righteous work performed.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using obedience as the litmus test of whether or not you are in the faith. The error comes in when you think your obedience earns justification/salvation making God indebted to you to give you salvation. "See, I jumped through these hoops. Now save me."

You are correct on that Ferris, works can not justify us for guaranteed salvation. But then again neither can faith. There are many requirements listed and we are expected to do our best at living them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have already thoroughly explained multiple times how the same word "justified" is used for both faith and works in James 2:24 - "shown to be righteous." The word "justified" has more than one meaning in scripture, depending on the context, but you continue to ignore that.

Now if "faith only" in James 2:24 was authenric saving faith in Christ, then you would have a point, but it's not and you don't have a point. What James means by faith "alone" - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works (James 2:14, 24) is not to be confused with salvation through faith in Christ "alone" (faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation - Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

No contradiction on my part. You just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. Your anti-Protestant and type 2 works salvation crusade has clouded your mind and blinded you from the truth.

But James is not talking about a non-salvific discussion. He never changed his topic of discussion on the matter. James 1:12 says Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. James 1:21 says, “Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” This of course ties into James point later on how faith without works is dead (i.e. a continued faith that does not work in love). James is not telling his readers about false believers vs. true believers. Nor he is telling his readers to seek Jesus again and make sure they really sought forgiveness with Him. James does not say that. James did not question their initial salvation by God’s grace. James is only concerned with their continued faith and the wrong actions that have come about from it. Peter says in 2 Peter 1:8, “For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Peter said this right after giving us specific instructions on what to do so as not to be barren or unfruitful (See: 2 Peter 1:5-6 for these instructions). Peter also said, “for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” (2 Peter 1:10). Never fall from what? The faith. Continued faith. So we are to heed Peter’s instructions so as not to be unfruitful and or barren in our work of faith in our knowing the Lord Jesus Christ. This proves that one has to continue with God by faith of they are not going to make it.

 

[mailmandan]

But James is not talking about a non-salvific discussion. He never changed his topic of discussion on the matter. James 1:12 says Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. James 1:21 says, “Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” This of course ties into James point later on how faith without works is dead (i.e. a continued faith that does not work in love). James is not telling his readers about false believers vs. true believers. Nor he is telling his readers to seek Jesus again and make sure they really sought forgiveness with Him. James does not say that. James did not question their initial salvation by God’s grace. James is only concerned with their continued faith and the wrong actions that have come about from it. Peter says in 2 Peter 1:8, “For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Peter said this right after giving us specific instructions on what to do so as not to be barren or unfruitful (See: 2 Peter 1:5-6 for these instructions). Peter also said, “for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” (2 Peter 1:10). Never fall from what? The faith. Continued faith. So we are to heed Peter’s instructions so as not to be unfruitful and or barren in our work of faith in our knowing the Lord Jesus Christ. This proves that one has to continue with God by faith of they are not going to make it.

Empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14, 24) is non-salvic faith. Period. For the umpteenth time, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith, but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act by which God accounts the believer as righteous. (Romans 4:2-6)

 

[Robert Gwin]

Make no mistake, no one will make it to heaven BECAUSE they worked. Our works are a byproduct of being saved. Nt the means by which we are saved. The law should have taught you this. God as much told Israel and the world. If you want to be righteous and come to me by your own works. This is the standard (perfection). Anything short of this falls short of Gods glory, and you have forfeit your ability to save yourself by your deeds..

This is where grace came in.

What I stated is true, not one individual who will go to heaven has not worked for God. We obviously disagree. What possesses you to believe that God is going to select someone for that position who chose not to do the assignment? I say He only chooses those who were very zealous servants. Was Jesus pleased with the lukewarm congregation of Ephesis sir Rev 3:15-17. You may not understand the message there, but they stagnated in their service, they had become basically pew sitters who were satisfied with what they had, in other words they had their own paradise, but the work was not finished, and others deserved to hear the good news as well.


Yep.

But the slave did not go to hell because he did not work. He went to hell because he did not have faith. Because of his lack of faith. He was never saved and never did any work.

Stop focusing on works. Works will not save you.

If you want to try to get to heaven by works. Then God gave you the requirment, Cursed is EVERYONE who does not bey every word

There are two ways to heaven spoken of in scripture

The law (works)

Grace (the work of christ)

There is no other way. You can not mix grace and works. Paul made that clear

Everyone who dies goes to hell sir, it is the abode of the dead the grave.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14, 24) is non-salvic faith. Period. For the umpteenth time, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith, but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act by which God accounts the believer as righteous. (Romans 4:2-6)

The problem is that you try to separate faith from works. You say it is the evidence of faith (which is a contradictory statement by you), and if so… then it is not separate from the faith. For James says he will SHOW you his faith by his works (James 2:18). James says you can make your faith perfect by works (James 2:22). James is referring to what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11 (a thing called, “the work of faith”). More accurately it would be called “faith which worketh by love.” (Galatians 5:6). Works (after we are saved by God’s grace) justify us before God because they show us our faith. They are a part of the faith. But you try to separate faith from works (When that’s not what the Bible teaches). Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. That’s hearing the WHOLE BIBLE. The whole Bible is a part of the faith. More specifically, the New Testament are the more specific instructions for us Christians. We have to believe these instructions by faith. So it’s a part of the faith. That’s what you don’t understand.

Romans 4:2 is referring to “Works ALONE Salvationism” (without God’s grace) via by a person thinking falsely that they had to first be circumcised to be initially saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12). But believers are initially saved by God’s grace and mercy (without works) in their Initial Salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Romans 4:3-5) (Titus 3:5). In Romans 4: Paul is not referring to the secondary aspect of salvation in being saved in the Sanctification Process by the Spirit after one is saved by God’s grace. Paul teaches that Sanctification is also for salvation (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13). For God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

In Romans 4:2: Paul is NOT referring to works of faith (that shows our faith). Paul is fighting against the Jews’ false thinking and their belief of circumcision to be saved (See: Romans 3:1). Paul is attacking false works done for God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14, 24) is non-salvic faith. Period. For the umpteenth time, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith, but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act by which God accounts the believer as righteous. (Romans 4:2-6)

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). We both agree that this would be a CONTINUED faith, and not our Initial Faith in being saved by God’s grace (without works). However, where we disagree is that you think these works are non-salvific. Yet, if one does not have these works in their continued faith, then they are not saved (even according to you). So that means… works of faith are necessary as a part of salvation. For can a believer live out their faith their WHOLE LIFE and not have works and be saved? According to you, this is not possible. This means that works then are necessary part of our faith and salvation. Point, blank, period. Unless you say that you can be saved by FAITH ALONE your whole life living out the faith (with no works), then you are not really for FAITH ALONE (without works) for salvation. That’s why you contradict yourself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@mailmandan

The problem in making the word “justified” as being non-salvific in James 2:24 is because that does not fit the context.
Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
The whole of the context is salvation.

James 2:14 says,
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”

James point in it being salvific is James 2:17, James 2:18-19, James 2:24, James 2:26.

Faith without works is dead - James 2:17.
Even the demons believe and tremble - James 2:18.
A man is justified by works and not by faith alone - James 2:24.
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

Protestants such as yourself distort James 2:24 to be non-salvific when the context is talking about salvation.
Even the previous chapter is talking about holy actions in regards to our salvation (See: James 1:12, and James 1:21).

 

[savedbygrace1]

Unlike you…. I back up my questions with Scripture and I strive not to ask questions out of thin air or my thoughts alone. If you ask your question based upon a verse or a certain set of verses, then we have something to talk about. Your question is simply focused on the sayings of Protestants. I don’t trust all of the sayings of Protestants because many of their claims are false. So you have to back up your questions with Scripture. But if you were paying attention, I did reply to you with Scripture as an answer. You just have not been listening. The proof is that you said yourself that you ignore one of my longer posts.

You were only asked one question and you couldnt answer it

 

[savedbygrace1]

Jesus says, “whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34).
Jesus did not say he that commits lots of sins or practices various sins is a slave to sin.
Jesus simply said he that commits sin (singular) is a slave to sin.



What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

John8:34
By your logic, you are a slave to sin, for you are not sinless are you. For you wrote:
Jesus simply said he that commits sin (singular) is a slave to sin.
You see, your comprehension is awful. Therefore, according to your rationalisation and Paul's words, only death awaits you. You are condemned
Read on:
''Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.''
Its a pity you don't understand context!!
1John1:8
And yet, you admit you are not sinless don't you! All you do is condemn yourself by your immature understanding of scripture. Can you faultlessly obey the letter of all God's applicable laws? No! You don't even try and obey many of Christ's commands in the Gospels do you!
All you do, is woodenly quote the letter at random, with no understanding at all of the message the letter contains, and you cannot live up to the wooden literalistic interpretation of scripture you give. Read Matt 23, and ponder on it

 

[savedbygrace1]

1 John 2:4 basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Your belief says your not ruled by sin, and yet, you don’t mean every sin. So this means that technically you are not keeping His commandments. This is a dangerous place to be because 1 John 2:4 condemns your position.[/QUOTE]

OK
If you ever fasted, have you ever so much as hinted to others you have fasted?
If someone stole something of yours, would you give them more than what they stole gladly, with nothing but love in your heart for them?
Do you truly in your heart love your enemies, those who may mistreat you, say unkind things about you?
Do you not invite friends and family home for a meal, but rather the lame, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven?
If someone asked to lend from you, would you gladly give to them without ever expecting anything back?
If you are persecuted do you truly leap for joy?
So what shall we conclude from your wooden, literalistic understanding of scripture?
You are a liar and the truth is not in you?

 

[Charlie24]

Hi Charlie, been a while sir, nice conversing with you again. I agree through the new covenant, but we separate there. Only those who do, receive the gift. There are circumstances of course, some people are simply not capable, but the parable of the talents is a great way to understand that we have requirements. Are you aware of what our assignment is?

I'm aware that many are adding to the requirement of faith in Christ.

If salvation requires our "doing" to please God, none of us will make it.

That's the reason God made it simple for fallen man, undeserving Grace.

Anything, I said anything added to that Grace makes our salvation "void and of none effect."