Electing New Pope

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Trent decided a faulty interpretation of "faith alone" (in the absence of hope and charity) was anathema. Every evangelical Protestant agrees we are not justified by mere intellectual ascent alone. Pope Benedict XVI made a startling proclamation: “Luther’s expression sola fide is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love” (Wednesday Audience, Nov. 19, 2008). At first, this statement might seem to collide with Trent: “If anyone says that the godless are justified by faith alone . . . let him be anathema” (Trent, VI, canon 9). Again, “For faith, unless hope and charity are added thereto, neither unites one perfectly with Christ nor makes one a living member of his body” (Trent, VI, ch. 7).
There are differences of expression, emphasis, and insight here. But do the differences constitute contradictions? Heavens no!
Justification Sola Fide
“By Faith Alone?” Part I

Thanks for your post.

 

[atpollard]

Trent decided a faulty interpretation of "faith alone" (in the absence of hope and charity) was anathema. Every evangelical Protestant agrees we are not justified by mere intellectual ascent alone. Pope Benedict XVI made a startling proclamation: “Luther’s expression sola fide is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love” (Wednesday Audience, Nov. 19, 2008). At first, this statement might seem to collide with Trent: “If anyone says that the godless are justified by faith alone . . . let him be anathema” (Trent, VI, canon 9). Again, “For faith, unless hope and charity are added thereto, neither unites one perfectly with Christ nor makes one a living member of his body” (Trent, VI, ch. 7).
There are differences of expression, emphasis, and insight here. But do the differences constitute contradictions? Heavens no!
Justification Sola Fide
“By Faith Alone?” Part I

Could you define "faith", "hope" and "charity" so that I can understand what YOU (the RCC) means by those terms?
(I have observed that Catholics and Protestants too often talk PAST one another because of "semantics".)

 

[BreadOfLife]

I see, you teach there are 3 levels of priests in the NT church and this only applies to the 3rd level....


9 But ye(Catholic Priests) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy
LOL

No – as you can see from my last TWO posts – that verse apples to the general priesthood of ALL Christians.
It doesn’t apply to the MINISTERIAL Priesthood.

As I’ve educated you twice now – the following verses refer to the Ministerial Priesthood (John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 5:18-20, 2 Cor. 2:10, James 5:14-15).

 

[BreadOfLife]

You didn't tell us how the OT was canonized.

Can you answer my question first?

 

[amigo de christo]

Make sure you burn all of your Protestant pedophile clergy as well.
You may as well get-em, all - right?

Only GOD has the right to take life . But our duty is to cast out those who sin and continue to do so from the church .
We dont just sit and hug folks who support abortion , murder , rape , lies , and YES Homosexuality too . Dont forget that one .
cause i see the wrong kind of RAINBOW FLAGS getting set up all over churches . TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE
From ROME to the protestant realm . CLEAN OUT THE HOUSE and PUT THE BIBLE back IN and all sound doctrine at the forefront .
Amigo has come to clean house . Though i be nothing . BUT someone has to do something .
So write that ol vatican and vote AMIGO for POPE .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Only GOD has the right to take life . But our duty is to cast out those who sin and continue to do so from the church .
We dont just sit and hug folks who support abortion , murder , rape , lies , and YES Homosexuality too . Dont forget that one .
cause i see the wrong kind of RAINBOW FLAGS getting set up all over churches . TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE
From ROME to the protestant realm . CLEAN OUT THE HOUSE and PUT THE BIBLE back IN and all sound doctrine at the forefront .
Amigo has come to clean house . Though i be nothing . BUT someone has to do something .
So write that ol vatican and vote AMIGO for POPE .

O’l Amigo needs A LOT of work before he could be in that position.

YOU don’t even know why you adhere to the Catholic Tradition of the New Testament Canon – NOR do you know where you got your OT Canon of Scripture.

If you’re going to hedge your entire salvation on the Bible – you should AT LEAT understand where you got it – and WHY you believe it to be the Word of God.

 

[amigo de christo]

O’l Amigo needs A LOT of work before he could be in that position.

YOU don’t even know why you adhere to the Catholic Tradition of the New Testament Canon – NOR do you know where you got your OT Canon of Scripture.

If you’re going to hedge your entire salvation on the Bible – you should AT LEAT understand where you got it – and WHY you believe it to be the Word of God.

Oh , i guess that means you wont be writing the vatican . Okay . I can still correct folks on me own . But in case you change you mind
VOTE AMIGO FOR POPE .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh , i guess that means you wont be writing the vatican . Okay . I can still correct folks on me own . But in case you change you mind
VOTE AMIGO FOR POPE .

Sooooo, you’re not even going to try to GUESS why you believe the NT to be the Word of God?

If these Books were declared the “NT Canon of Scripture” by the Catholic Church – a Church that YOU reject as “evil” – WHY do you accept them as the Word of God??
Why do you accept the 66 Book OT Canon of Scripture as opposed to the 73 Book Catholic Canon? Do you know WHERE you got that 66 Book Canon?

 

[Illuminator]

Oh , i guess that means you wont be writing the vatican . Okay . I can still correct folks on me own . But in case you change you mind
VOTE AMIGO FOR POPE .

Is that the best you can do?
BofL said: YOU don’t even know why you adhere to the Catholic Tradition of the New Testament Canon – NOR do you know where you got your OT Canon of Scripture.

If you’re going to hedge your entire salvation on the Bible – you should AT LEAST understand where you got it – and WHY you believe it to be the Word of God.
You quote BofL but are at a loss to any kind of intelligent reply. Aside from that, it isn't necessary for you to run for pope, because in your system, and truther's, everybody is a pope except the pope. From the sublime to the ridiculous.

 

[Truther]

How many mediators are there between God and man?

 

[Truther]

No – as you can see from my last TWO posts – that verse apples to the general priesthood of ALL Christians.
It doesn’t apply to the MINISTERIAL Priesthood.

As I’ve educated you twice now – the following verses refer to the Ministerial Priesthood (John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 5:18-20, 2 Cor. 2:10, James 5:14-15).

Please give me a scripture in the New Testament which teaches that all believers which are New Testament priest’s, have another priest between them and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Please give me a scripture in the New Testament which teaches that all believers which are New Testament priest’s, have another priest between them and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you.

I already DID.

James 5:13-15
Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

In Rom 15:15-16, Paul uses the word “Hierurgeo”, which is the verb form of the Greek “Hierus” (priests) – the SAME word used for “priest” throughout the NT.
Rom 15:15-16:
But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the PRIESTLY service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states,
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

YOUR turn . . .

 

[theefaith]

Please give me a scripture in the New Testament which teaches that all believers which are New Testament priest’s, have another priest between them and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you.

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

 

[theefaith]

Please give me a scripture in the New Testament which teaches that all believers which are New Testament priest’s, have another priest between them and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Apostolic authority!
God sent them apostles to teach them the truth revealed by Christ!
Matt 28:19 all the apostles
Philip an apostle acts 8
Peter an apostle acts 10

Jn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.


There is a big difference between the people, and the priesthood of Christ and the apostles!

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, I send you. And Jn 17:18 I send you!

(The apostles with the same mission, power, and authority)

The apostles received the kingdom.
Lk 22:29

The apostles administer the kingdom. Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18

The apostles govern the church.
Matt 28:19-20

The apostles hold office.
Acts 1:15-20

The apostles have authority to forgive sins. Jn 20:23

Apostles are the light of the world!
The church is an extension of Christ in time and space. Matt 5:14

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Three fold ministry,

Teaching:
Sanctification:
Governing:

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

God established order and peace and knowledge of truth in a hierarchical authority of Peter and the apostles!

There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!

The angelic kingdom!
The civil kingdom!
The church kingdom!
The family!

All are ordered with hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!






Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Initiation into the new covenant must be ministered to you by the apostles!


There CANNOT be both!

Either Apostolic tradition in hierarchical authority which establishes truth, peace and order!

Or

Spiritual anarchy producing chaos and disorder!



Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Men show is the way of salvation?

 

[theefaith]

Please give me a scripture in the New Testament which teaches that all believers which are New Testament priest’s, have another priest between them and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you.

Christ is high priest so there must be low priests!

 

[theefaith]

Please give me a scripture in the New Testament which teaches that all believers which are New Testament priest’s, have another priest between them and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you.

1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

presbyter is a priest!

 

[BreadOfLife]

How many mediators are there between God and man?

LOTS.
Jesus is our ONLY Mediator in that only HIS sacrifice can bring peace between us and the Father – but we are ALL called to mediate and intercede for one another.

As the BODY of Christ – we SHARE in the sufferings of Christ.
In case you forgot – Paul gives us a perfect example of this in Col. 12:4, when he writes:
Col. 12:4
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church

STUDY your Bible – don’t just quote it.

 

[Illuminator]

How many mediators are there between God and man?

Subordinate mediators is because of the the ONE mediatorship of Christ, not contrary to it. You create a false dichotomy trying to justify the abolishment of the New Testament Priesthood, which can't be defended.
1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Please give me a scripture in the New Testament which teaches that all believers which are New Testament priest’s, have another priest between them and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you.

Scriptures have been cited repeatedly. Ministerial priests share the same common priesthood as I have, the difference is I am not ordained, but still I am a priest in the common sense. The elimination of a sacrificial, ministerial priesthood is a man made tradition and has no defense.

 

[Truther]

I already DID.

James 5:13-15
Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

In Rom 15:15-16, Paul uses the word “Hierurgeo”, which is the verb form of the Greek “Hierus” (priests) – the SAME word used for “priest” throughout the NT.
Rom 15:15-16:
But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the PRIESTLY service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states,
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

YOUR turn . . .

Lol

 

[Truther]

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

So his Apostles are allowed to skip Acts 2:38 these days?