The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Timtofly]

This is how I see it

We are all physically and spiritually alive at birth

When we sin we die spiritually

When we accept Jesus we are raised spiritually

When we die we die physically

At the end of the world we are all raised in new bodies and judged or rewarded

That does not exactly line up with Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

All sin because we are in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. We are born physically dead, and spiritually dead. The physical resurrection takes place when the soul leaves Adam's dead flesh and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1

We are adopted into the spiritual family, but not sons of God, until we leave Adam's flesh behind. But at the Second Coming all those redeemed both in Paradise and on earth will be glorified, take back our spiritual garment. John calls it a robe of white at the 5th Seal.

Jesus demonstrated the spirit on the mount of Transfiguration, when He shined like the sun. That is the full image of God, body, soul, and spirit.

If we are literally dead in living human flesh they why did Paul say that we are raised with Christ?

We are adopted into God's family. But still in Adam's fallen image, until physical death.

We have the Holy Spirit, not our spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

Is it now? Well, then tell me how you interpret this passage:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It's time for you to prove that you understand passages like this and don't misinterpret them. You can say that all you want, but you need to show that. So, please, explain how this passage lines up with your doctrine.

This is speaking of the day of the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) when the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 20:11-15. This is NOT the day of the second coming as you likely wrongly interpret it. The only ones cast into the lake of fire the day of the second coming is the beast and False Prophet. Not even satan is cast into the lake of fire that day.

 

[Marty fox]

That does not exactly line up with Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

All sin because we are in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. We are born physically dead, and spiritually dead. The physical resurrection takes place when the soul leaves Adam's dead flesh and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1

We are adopted into the spiritual family, but not sons of God, until we leave Adam's flesh behind. But at the Second Coming all those redeemed both in Paradise and on earth will be glorified, take back our spiritual garment. John calls it a robe of white at the 5th Seal.

Jesus demonstrated the spirit on the mount of Transfiguration, when He shined like the sun. That is the full image of God, body, soul, and spirit.

Romans is saying that when we sin we die spiritually, I don’t know how you can’t see that?

How are we born physically and spiritually dead?

If sin kills us spiritually how does it kill us if we haven’t sinned?

 

[Timtofly]

If there's no sin in the 1000 years then what about child who rebels will be instantly killed and placed in Death?

You just contradicted yourself

Adam physically died and spiritually died. But he was allowed to live on in corruptible dead flesh, and we are born in the image of Adam, not the image of God.

Those children will be dead sinners in death, removed from the Lamb's book of life. After the 1,000 years, cast into the LOF.

We are in Adam's dead flesh, that is why sin continues. Sin will not enter, because no one will live on in a dead corruptible body on earth, like Adam and all his offspring did.

Adam was not a sinner until he disobeyed God. Adam was a son of God in God's image until Adam disobeyed God.

Once again Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Those who disobey will be removed from the earth and placed in Death. Sin will not enter, and cause humans to live in dead corruptible flesh like what happened to Adam.

 

[Timtofly]

Of course Jesus was there before the first advent but in the context of Psalm 110 its talking about after the first advent

Are you sure? Jesus is not bound by time, but is as much the Lord God, as God is.

 

[Timtofly]

Here comes Tim with his utter nonsense again. You are trying to say that 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is already fulfilled, which would mean that Jesus already delivered the kingdom to the Father? Is that what you're trying to say?

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."

There is no time stamp on the reign itself.

God HATH put all things under his feet. You know that done deal as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, which you deny.

Jesus has always reigned in God's perspective. The last enemy is Death. At the 7th Trumpet all nations are under the direct personal control of Jesus from Jerusalem on earth. That is future per the 7th Trumpet sounding. Death is still the last enemy. When those last few humans are consumed by fire from God, they are the last placed in Death. Then Death will be handed to God along with all of creation, and then heaven and earth will pass away. Death and sheol are cast into the LOF.

Revelation 20:14

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

This is not the Second Coming. It is after the 1,000 years, after the Second Coming. The end still doth come after the Second Coming per king James lingo.

Then cometh the end. Paul did not say at His coming is the end.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Is after the next few verses:

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."

Just like this part:

"afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Is after the fulness of the Gentiles, not the first century when Paul wrote this letter.

The first group are those resurrected out of Abraham's bosom at the Cross. The firstfruits.

Who are those that are Christ's? The glorified church as one group gathered from Paradise and earth.

Those chosen directly by Jesus: Matthew 25:31 and Matthew 13:37

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;"

The wheat is the seed sown by Jesus Christ at the Second Coming. The angels gather that harvest, not the church. They live on earth for the next 1,000 years; the wheat and sheep. They have billions of offspring, because people are not born sinners. Every once in a while there is a child that decides they can disobey. It is not natural, it is considered a curse.

 

[Timtofly]

The concept of us putting on immortality is clearly there in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, so what is your problem with calling believers immortal once they put on immortality? What a ridiculous thing to complain about.

Pagan nonsense? Is that what you're calling what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54?

Okay, I will.

Because putting on immortality is putting on the image of God, not becoming an immortal. Are we discussing God's Word or Greek mythology? Are you convinced all those immortals in Greek literature is the church being glorified?

Are current TV shows concerning immortals, about Christians being glorified?

Putting on immortality is putting on the spirit, a robe of white. It is not a separate body. The body is the body, the spirit is an outer covering, a bright light, like the sun. Remember the mount of Transfiguration? That is putting on immortality. The physical body sheds Adam's temporal dead corruptible flesh, for God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Then we put on the spirit. Yes death becomes life, but Adam also becomes a restored son of God.


Not a fictional character from Greek mythology. I understand your attempt at a point. Would any randomn English speaking person?

 

[Timtofly]

This is all assumptions on your part. Nothing more.

Where else are the souls of the dead in Christ except in heaven?

They are not souls. The are judged and given life, the first resurrection. You can be a soul without a body and spirit for all eternity, but you miss John's point by a thousand miles. You realize that John's usage of soul throughout the book is not a literal soul without a body and spirit, but only symbolism?

You are literally a soul under the alter as seen by John. If not, you are not adopted into God's family, born of the Spirit. Only after the Second Coming and the 7th Trumpet, will there be souls beheaded for not taking the mark. That only occurs in a single 42 month period between the Second Coming and the battle of Armageddon.

No other period of history has those souls who are beheaded.

In 2 Peter 3:5-7 the scope of this event is compared directly to what happened with the flood, so I think it's a reasonable assumption that it's talking about the surface of the earth. The entire surface of the earth will be burned just like the entire surface of the earth was covered in water by the blood in Noah's day.

It doesn't say the earth IS also, it says "the earth also". That means not only will the heavens and elements be burned up, but the earth also. That's what it says. You'd know that if you actually read it.

Yet you say the earth is not burned up. Make up your mind.

 

[Timtofly]

Romans is saying that when we sin we die spiritually, I don’t know how you can’t see that?

How are we born physically and spiritually dead?

If sin kills us spiritually how does it kill us if we haven’t sinned?

We sin because we are dead. Death passed upon all because all are already sinners at birth. Sin is not a thing, like the "original sin". Sin is the condition of being in the constant state of death.

Even our righteousness is only filthy rags. Only what we do as the fruit of the Holy Spirit will remain as gold tried in the fire. All our works will be burned up.

If Romans says what you think it does quote the verse. Sin does not enter every time we sin, it only entered once with Adam. Being physically born will give you life on earth, and doing nothing will net you death in sheol.

You have to accept God's adoption, it is not a default position for a few individuals. Accepting is not works. Accepting is submitting to the Holy Spirit. That is the second birth, spiritual. Then we are ambassadors raised to sit in heavenly places. But when we leave Adam's dead corruptible flesh, we gain a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. The soul is never without a physical body for the redeemed. Because after the Cross we no longer taste death. Tasting death was walking through the valley of the shadow of death, known as the soul waiting in Abraham's bosom. Souls don't hang out in Paradise. We have the same permanent incorruptible physical body as Jesus currently has in Paradise.

 

[Marty fox]

Adam physically died and spiritually died. But he was allowed to live on in corruptible dead flesh, and we are born in the image of Adam, not the image of God.

Those children will be dead sinners in death, removed from the Lamb's book of life. After the 1,000 years, cast into the LOF.

We are in Adam's dead flesh, that is why sin continues. Sin will not enter, because no one will live on in a dead corruptible body on earth, like Adam and all his offspring did.

Adam was not a sinner until he disobeyed God. Adam was a son of God in God's image until Adam disobeyed God.

Once again Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Those who disobey will be removed from the earth and placed in Death. Sin will not enter, and cause humans to live in dead corruptible flesh like what happened to Adam.

That doesn't answer the question did you read it?

If there's no sin in the 1000 years then what about child who rebels will be instantly killed and placed in Death?

You just contradicted yourself

 

[Marty fox]

Are you sure? Jesus is not bound by time, but is as much the Lord God, as God is.

Your the one who brought time into it.

 

[jeffweeder]

This is speaking of the day of the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) when the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 20:11-15. This is NOT the day of the second coming as you likely wrongly interpret it.

I am glad you believe the casting into the fire is the GWTJ.
I think you will find it is the second coming as I will show...,

Matt 13
40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear.

matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Matt 24
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


49 So it will be at the end of the age: the angels will come forth and remove the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

51 “Have you understood all these things?” They *said to Him, “Yes.”





You can now confidently say goodbye to a future millennium.

 

[ewq1938]

You can now confidently say goodbye to a future millennium.

The future Millennium is scripture. I advise no one to reject it. Reject the false "now Millennium". The Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is not at the second coming, see Revelation 19-20 for that.

 

[jeffweeder]

The future Millennium is scripture. I advise no one to reject it. Reject the false "now Millennium". The Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is not at the second coming, see Revelation 19-20 for that.

: - I only posted what Jesus said lol.
So you deny those scriptures I posted are the second coming ?
I thought you said you believed the wicked are taken out from among of the righteous and thrown into the fire at the GWT.
How could that be any different to what Jesus said in Matt 25?


31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him,

46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[ewq1938]

How could that be any different to what Jesus said in Matt 25?

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him,

46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



Verse 31 is not the second coming but the time after the Millennium when Christ comes to the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) to witness the judging and lake of fire punishment with his angels.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is speaking of the same timeframe. The second coming is not the end of the world but the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) a thousand years later is the day the old world ends, with the new one seen in Revelation 21, called the New Heaven and new Earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is speaking of the day of the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) when the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 20:11-15. This is NOT the day of the second coming as you likely wrongly interpret it. The only ones cast into the lake of fire the day of the second coming is the beast and False Prophet. Not even satan is cast into the lake of fire that day.

You can see that Matthew 13:47-50 is about the end of the age, right? You don't believe that Jesus will return at the end of the age? That is implied in the Olivet Discourse. Do you think He was asked 3 different questions in the Olivet Discourse (one about the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings, one about His second coming and one about the end of the age)? If so, then where exactly did He answer the question about the end of the age?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They are not souls.

Yes, they are. You are clueless.

Yet you say the earth is not burned up. Make up your mind.

Why does it have to be the entire earth burned up and annihilated? Peter also talked about the earth being destroyed by the flood, but does that mean the earth was annihilated? Try something else. This argument you're trying to use is as weak as can be.

 

[ewq1938]

You can see that Matthew 13:47-50 is about the end of the age, right?

Christ does not return at the time the old Earth is replaced by the new Earth. The second coming happens LONG before the lake of fire judgment and New Heaven and new Earth does. Amillennialism always conflates the second coming with the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) lake of fire timeframes. Revelation 19-20 proves that conflation to be wrong.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because putting on immortality is putting on the image of God, not becoming an immortal.

Can someone die after putting on immortality? If not, does that not mean they are immortal, which just means they can't die? You waste so much time with these useless arguments over semantics. It's all you have. You're unable to form a coherent argument to back up anything you say, so you resort to nonsense like this instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am glad you believe the casting into the fire is the GWTJ.
I think you will find it is the second coming as I will show...,

Matt 13
40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear.

matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Matt 24
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


49 So it will be at the end of the age: the angels will come forth and remove the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

51 “Have you understood all these things?” They *said to Him, “Yes.”





You can now confidently say goodbye to a future millennium.

It's so clear. But ewq has no grasp of the concept of interpreting scripture with scripture, so that's why he can't see how this scriptures are directly related.