22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Rich R]

Jn 5
18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Rev 1
He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.


Rev 22
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

Matt 16
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

Tit 2
1 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

The Father and the Son together always equals THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY

How does all of that fit with:

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

I take these to say that only the Father is God and that Jesus was sent by Him as Lord and the Christ (the anointed one).

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
​

The Epistles are full of the phrase, "...the God and Father of Jesus Christ..." Jesus has the same God as you and I. So if Jesus is God, who is God's God?

1 Cor 15:27-28,

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

If they are supposedly equal how is one part of God going to be subject to another part of God? The trinity creates way more problems than it solves. It does nothing but cause confusion.

 

[dad]

The Church is the "Israel" of God, children of the promised seed

"All Israel" will be saved when the last soul is saved, and added to the Church on earth

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So not all people who were alive in Israel were Israel the verse says. That points out that only the believing people there were part of Israel as far as God is concerned and in any true sense. That does not mean that there was no such nation as Israel at the time, or after that time. That does not mean Israel would not exist and be invaded in the end times. It does not mean that one day God will not restore them to that land as promised from all over the world. It does not mean that Scripture is in error and that there will not be a remnant in the end when all Israel will be saved. Just because some few Jews already started to get saved in Jesus' day does not mean that more would not be saved later. When all Israel in the end is saved (the remnant) that does not mean there were none saved before that time. Not sure what your problem is.

 

[dad]

How does all of that fit with:

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
​

I take these to say that only the Father is God and that Jesus was sent by Him as Lord and the Christ (the anointed one).

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
​

The Epistles are full of the phrase, "...the God and Father of Jesus Christ..." Jesus has the same God as you and I. So if Jesus is God, who is God's God?

1 Cor 15:27-28,

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

If they are supposedly equal how is one part of God going to be subject to another part of God? The trinity creates way more problems than it solves. It does nothing but cause confusion.

Very simple you need to answer one question first. Is Jesus Christ God or not? If you say yes, then we simply need to realize that God is One God. If our minds are too small to comprehend how God could have planned to come to earth before the world began, and yet also still be God even though a part of Him was in a human body then so what? No one says we need to know it all right now. When God became a man and lived in time and space and a body He was Jesus. Jesus limiting Himself did and does not limit God outside of time and space and this world. As Jesus said, "I and my Father are one"

 

[covenantee]

Where did they suggest there were no OT promises? When did they suggest that if there were God would break His word? Where does the New Testament say that the prophesies of the OT are all worthless? Did Paul claim God would not restore Israel one day? Does Revelation not tell us Jesus will return to Israel and rule with us from there? Did Jesus tell us that there would be no time of Jacob's trouble after all?

I've cited three NT Scriptures which attest to the fulfillment of the promises and blessings.

What NT Scriptures can you cite which attest to the unfulfillment of the promises and blessings?

 

[Randy Kluth]

So not all people who were alive in Israel were Israel the verse says. That points out that only the believing people there were part of Israel as far as God is concerned and in any true sense. That does not mean that there was no such nation as Israel at the time, or after that time. That does not mean Israel would not exist and be invaded in the end times. It does not mean that one day God will not restore them to that land as promised from all over the world. It does not mean that Scripture is in error and that there will not be a remnant in the end when all Israel will be saved. Just because some few Jews already started to get saved in Jesus' day does not mean that more would not be saved later. When all Israel in the end is saved (the remnant) that does not mean there were none saved before that time. Not sure what your problem is.

Their problem is that they don't believe God promised Abraham an *eternal* posterity in the literal nation Israel. The Early Church had hoped that after Israel's fall in the time of Christ they would soon come back to being a godly nation.

As time passed, this idea seemed to be a pipe dream--not a reality. And so, they redefined "Israel" to refer to anybody who has the faith once began by Israel, aka Replacement Theology.

Fine Christians believed this, even though I believe it is wrong. And I think God tolerated it because Israel's restoration has been a long ways off, at least until relatively recently in history. And I think it's notable that a return to belief in Israel's restoration has coincided with the times in which we live, when Israel does seem poised for political restoration.

I've pointed out before that Paul's view of Israel's Salvation is not just "spiritual." Many here think that Salvation is strictly a matter of being a believer, when it reality the Bible ties the existence of practicing faith with political deliverance.

If one reads through the blessings and curses of the Law, he will see that repentance from sin and a practice of faith leads to political deliverance. Paul's argument is that when Israel is finally judged in favor of the believing remnant of Jews, then the whole nation will be politically delivered and delivered over into the hands of believers.

Not just a small section of the land of Israel will be saved, but a whole country will be politically saved from her enemies. This entails the evolution from a small remnant of Jewish believers to an entire nation that embraces a Christian constitution.

It is not just the entire nation "getting saved," but more, a large-scale progression from a small group of believers to a nation filled with believers, in which all, saved or unsaved, embrace Christian principles and so enjoy eternal deliverance from their political adversaries. Salvation of "all Israel" is a reference to literal Israel being completely delivered, as a nation, from all enemies, just as God promised through the Prophets.

 

[dad]

Where did Jesus or the apostles say that there are still unfulfilled promises to Israel?

There are many hundreds of prophesies and all will come to pass. Unless you can show that there are none that apply to Israel, you are wasting our time.

 

[dad]

I've cited three NT Scriptures which attest to the fulfillment of the promises and blessings.

What NT Scriptures can you cite which attest to the unfulfillment of the promises and blessings?

None of the verses attest to any such thing regarding God restoring Jews to the land. Gong!

 

[covenantee]

None of the verses attest to any such thing regarding God restoring Jews to the land. Gong!

Certainly not. Because nowhere in the NT is there any reference to God restoring Jews to the land.

Thunk!!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This is concerning. Are you not acknowledging that Jesus is God? Are you a Mormon or something like that?

Actual "Mormon" here: Jesus Christ is God. The Son of God to be more specific. He, the Father, and the Spirit are 3 different divine persons in 1 God.

 

[dad]

Their problem is that they don't believe God promised Abraham an *eternal* posterity in the literal nation Israel. The Early Church had hoped that after Israel's fall in the time of Christ they would soon come back to being a godly nation.

That posterity was for all his children who had faith also. Not all Israel is Israel as the bible says. However, to claim there is no Israel or promises is ignorant and darkness.

As time passed, this idea seemed to be a pipe dream--not a reality. And so, they redefined "Israel" to refer to anybody who has the faith once began by Israel, aka Replacement Theology.

They don't get to do that except in their delusional little heads.

Fine Christians believed this, even though I believe it is wrong. And I think God tolerated it because Israel's restoration has been a long ways off, at least until relatively recently in history. And I think it's notable that a return to belief in Israel's restoration has coincided with the times in which we live, when Israel does seem poised for political restoration.

I do not believe they are restored yet. They are just bringing themselves (God knowing about it and allowing it) to that land where they will experience the time of trial and trouble soon. God restores the remnant later.

I've pointed out before that Paul's view of Israel's Salvation is not just "spiritual." Many here think that Salvation is strictly a matter of being a believer, when it reality the Bible ties the existence of practicing faith with political deliverance.

I don't see that. The political part includes only believers. The thing is that all Israel will believe finally in the end, so that may be where some 'political' aspect comes in. Israel will not be saved because they are a nation called Israel or their ancestors were believers. The remnant will be saved because they believe.

If one reads through the blessings and curses of the Law, he will see that repentance from sin and a practice of faith leads to political deliverance.

In the case of Israel that is correct for sure. When they accept Jesus in the end, those remaining alive, that remnant, will be very delivered and all their enemies clobbered and etc. Just like prophesy says.

Paul's argument is that when Israel is finally judged in favor of the believing remnant of Jews, then the whole nation will be politically delivered and delivered over into the hands of believers.

I don't see that either. When they are delivered from their enemies and when they finally believe, they are in God's hands, not in the hands of believers! I have zero desire to live in that promised land, we have our home in the heavens, in New Jerusalem. Not old Jerusalem. It seems that for a time anyhow, Israel will be living in the old Jerusalem as promised! No thank you for me. WE will rule with Jesus on earth, so naturally will spend a lot of time there as well, but that will not be our home and was not promised to us.

Not just a small section of the land of Israel will be saved, but a whole country will be politically saved from her enemies. This entails the evolution from a small remnant of Jewish believers to an entire nation that embraces a Christian constitution.

The whole world will be under the direct rule of Jesus, not just Israel. The entire nation of Israel at that time WILL BE those believers. No one else. All Israel will be saved. The rebels will have been purged out from the land by then. Very serious business.

It is not just the entire nation "getting saved," but more, a large-scale progression from a small group of believers to a nation filled with believers, in which all, saved or unsaved, embrace Christian principles and so enjoy eternal deliverance from their political adversaries.

No! ONLY the believers will be alive then. (unless you want to talk children's children, some of whom will rebel again in the end)

Salvation of "all Israel" is a reference to literal Israel being completely delivered, as a nation, from all enemies, just as God promised through the Prophets.

Not in the way you apparently thought. All Israel will be saved. Only believers will be alive there. There is no others in Israel at all that are alive but the remnant that get saved! THAT is who Jesus protects, restores and etc. That is who gets all that promised territory there.

 

[dad]

Certainly not. Because nowhere in the NT is there any reference to God restoring Jews to the land.

Thunk!!

I assume that is sarcasm? (because obviously God will bring them back to the land from afar etc etc etc)

 

[covenantee]

I assume that is sarcasm? (because obviously God will bring them back to the land from afar etc etc etc)

You assume wrong.

Nowhere in the NT is there any reference to God restoring Jews to the land.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There are many hundreds of prophesies and all will come to pass. Unless you can show that there are none that apply to Israel, you are wasting our time.

Brother/dad: The Amils who deny Israel her rightful place in history, and her national salvation, are indeed wasting your time! But you are not wasting your time answering them, since we need to have an answer for others who read these conversations. Thanks for taking the time!

 

[Truth7t7]

No Mormon, JW, or any thing like that. I just read 1 Cor 8:6 and John 17:3 and take them to say that the only true God is the Father. Is Jesus the Father? No. Then he's not the one true God.

1 John 5:7KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That posterity was for all his children who had faith also. Not all Israel is Israel as the bible says. However, to claim there is no Israel or promises is ignorant and darkness.

Right, God's promise to Abraham was 2-fold, to have a nation for his biological posterity and to have a family of nations who share his faith. Those who deny literal Israel a place in God's plan do not entirely reject the truth, however, since they do accept that all who have faith will be saved. That must include Jews who convert to Christ at the coming of Christ. Sadly, Amils reject any notion of anybody coming to Christ in the next age. And the "darkness" about this is that God's promises appear then to have failed, and only succeed if "Israel" is redefined as the International Church.

They don't get to do that except in their delusional little heads.
I do not believe they are restored yet. They are just bringing themselves (God knowing about it and allowing it) to that land where they will experience the time of trial and trouble soon. God restores the remnant later.

The reality is, Israel has been suffering great tribulation since the Early Church. The period of their "Punishment" actually began in 70 AD, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. But yes, I think we're seeing the intensity of trouble increase once again, and not long after the Holocaust, which in itself is terribly great tribulation.

I don't see that. The political part includes only believers. The thing is that all Israel will believe finally in the end, so that may be where some 'political' aspect comes in. Israel will not be saved because they are a nation called Israel or their ancestors were believers. The remnant will be saved because they believe.

Eze 36 indicates that God sometimes begins His plan of salvation for Israel *before* Israel repents. God reaches out to them to aid them in coming to Salvation. But you're entitled to your opinion.

I do believe Israel is saved because they are a "nation called Israel." This is necessary if God is to be genuinely faithful to Abraham's biological descendants. Someone among the Jews must pick up the torch of faith.

And though the majority of Jews have dragged down those who might believe, God will prepare a judgment to liberate the remnant who will believe. The result will be leadership by these new Christians at Christ's Return, causing the entire nation to become a "Christian nation."

I don't see that either. When they are delivered from their enemies and when they finally believe, they are in God's hands, not in the hands of believers! I have zero desire to live in that promised land, we have our home in the heavens, in New Jerusalem. Not old Jerusalem.

You must've misunderstood me. Never have I said that all Christians inherit the land of Israel! Only converted Jews will inherit the land of Israel at Christ's Return! Christians in other countries who live in Christian states will have their own land to inherit there.

WE will rule with Jesus on earth, so naturally will spend a lot of time there as well, but that will not be our home and was not promised to us.
The whole world will be under the direct rule of Jesus, not just Israel. The entire nation of Israel at that time WILL BE those believers. No one else. All Israel will be saved. The rebels will have been purged out from the land by then. Very serious business.

I'm not entirely clear about your position here? I personally believe glorified believers from the present age will rule over the earth during the Millennium. I believe that we will return with Jesus only to establish his Kingdom here. But we will then return with him to heaven to rule from heaven (not so sure about this point).

On earth, Jews will return en mass to God by accepting Christianity, in particular because the wicked majority will be devastated in these endtimes. But this will happen, I believe, in all nations called by God.

There will be "sheep" nations and "goat" nations at that time. The sheep nations will be Christian nations while the goat nations will be pagan nations. They will have peace imposed upon them all from heaven because Christ will rule as such together with his glorified Church, at least until the final rebellion when Satan is released once again.

Thanks for the conversation. This is largely future speculation, but is indeed a part of the Bible. Our focus should be on the faithfulness of God to His promises, and we should take those promises literally.

 

[Truth7t7]

Does Revelation not tell us Jesus will return to Israel and rule with us from there? Did Jesus tell us that there would be no time of Jacob's trouble after all?

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)!!!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Truth7t7]

So not all people who were alive in Israel were Israel the verse says. That points out that only the believing people there were part of Israel as far as God is concerned and in any true sense. That does not mean that there was no such nation as Israel at the time, or after that time. That does not mean Israel would not exist and be invaded in the end times. It does not mean that one day God will not restore them to that land as promised from all over the world. It does not mean that Scripture is in error and that there will not be a remnant in the end when all Israel will be saved. Just because some few Jews already started to get saved in Jesus' day does not mean that more would not be saved later. When all Israel in the end is saved (the remnant) that does not mean there were none saved before that time. Not sure what your problem is.

Your claims are "False" believing people are "The Church"!

The scripture below talks about the seed of Abraham and children of the flesh, they aren't the Children of God, the book of Romans was written "After" the cross of Calvary

Your Zionist teachings in (Two Peoples) of God has "Failed" the Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

When a Jew is saved they become "Church" where there isn't Jew or Greek it's that simple, if your not blinded by dispensationalism's Zionist (Dual Covenant Theology) in (Two Peoples) of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Keraz]

Their problem is that they don't believe God promised Abraham an *eternal* posterity in the literal nation Israel.

Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations. Genesis 17:4
They are identified today as the Christian, Western nations. Galatians 3:29 clearly states that people who belong to Christ ARE the children of Abraham.
The wrong idea that a mixed race people group who have occupied a small part of the holy Land, are the exclusive inheritors of God's Promises to Israel, is error and falsely promotes them as someone special.

There are many hundreds of prophesies and all will come to pass. Unless you can show that there are none that apply to Israel, you are wasting our time.

Plenty of Bible Prophesies apply to the Jewish people and to their evil neighbors. Jeremiah 12:14 says they will all be uprooted and gone from all of the holy land. Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 21:1-7
THEN; the true, faithful Christian peoples will gather and live there, in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35:1-10, Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16

 

[dad]

You assume wrong.

Nowhere in the NT is there any reference to God restoring Jews to the land.

If all Israel gets saved where would you think they would live, Siberia?

 

[dad]

Brother/dad: The Amils who deny Israel her rightful place in history, and her national salvation, are indeed wasting your time! But you are not wasting your time answering them, since we need to have an answer for others who read these conversations. Thanks for taking the time!

Thanks.