Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[LoveofTruth]

Please note that I disagree with Gotquestions view of sin and salvation. They teach that a believer is generally characterized by living a holy life, but if they backslide into a lifestyle of sin (i.e. they go prodigal), they are still saved.

I agree here. The prodigal was dead and alive again when he came home in repentance and grace.

As for your convincing others: Again, that has nothing to do with what the Bible actually says on this matter. Inferences off certain verses is not the same thing as direct evidence of Scripture. The inferences you make on certain verses involving this topic (while they sound good and could even be possibly true by a small percentage chance) can lead to...

I use scripture strongly in this matter. The inferences, are only there if the text shows it. For example, when Paul circumcised Timothy so as not to offend the Jews. That is inferred that he condescended to their weakness at that time.

#1. Accusing the apostles falsely.

I would never do such a thing. i only need scripture to accuse the apostles when they do wrong or are mistaken or in ignorance. There are a few verses like that. Such as Peter was to be blamed in Galatians and the very truth of the gospel was in danger.

#2. Not following a given instruction by God within the faith.

I would never teach to do that. But to prove that an ordinances is for salvation and part of the gospel in the New Testament as some do is not following the leading of the Spirit. All we do is to be done in faith and the leading of the Spirit. If for example Paul says to remember the poor. The Spirit will move our hearts to do such a thing and as we walk in that we walk in the spirit Its not just a rules outside of faith and the Spirit that we follow. If so we would be like the pharisees who just added their own rules and traditions and tried to keep the law also in their flesh.

#3. Not Staying True to the Bible Alone Position.

You forgot the leading of the Spirit. And it was the Spirit that gave scripture and so in the spirit we can understand only ( 1 Cor 2). Read my entire study again on the rule of faith and practice is not scripture alone in the Christian forums. I cover that very clearly O believe.

Titus 3:8 they are told to be careful to maintain good works.

yes, and all works flow from God when we walk in faith, God makes us perfect uno tEVERY good work. As we abide in him and continue in the faith and grace. The manifestation of the fruit will manifest in some way, as the body with the spirit moves and works and lives, so a believer with God in Him lives and moves and has his being. We must always be listening and walking in faith. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. It is a fine line when we go to far into the flesh and our own effort of the flesh. And when we add ceremonies and dead works to justify us.

I believe we are first saved INITIALLY by God's grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Ephesians 2:1).

I believe we are continually saved and shall be saved as we abide in that. Yes we are fellow labourers with God and we must perfect holiness and abide and the new man must continue in the grace. But all that work is motivated and empowered by love. For faith which worketh by love is always needed.

I am against the position that water baptism is done for INITIAL Salvation (Which is what the Catholic church and the Church of Christ believes)

Good to hear that. You will find that the middle of the road position that many hold, which says you must be water baptized, but its not for salvation , but you must do it or else we doubt your salvation , and its an obedience work for yu to be saved etc is hard to maintain under close study and examination. The only two ideas that seem to be in tension is the view that says water baptism saves you and the other view, that you don't need it at all today.

I But a believer should not reject water baptism because it is a part of the faith and the just live by faith.

This pat of the faith part adding a ceremonial type of the faith and belief is the confusing part. Belief is not works, as Paul says. Not by works of righteousness that we have done.And water baptism in the OT that Jesus did was a work of righteousness. But he alone fulfilled all righteousness and the law, only he could.

Ask yourself, why don't believers sacrifice a lamb every time they gather in remembrance of Jesus death? the answer is the same for other diverse washings and carnal ordinances.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Babes would be those who are like babies who are innocent and simple, and who do not seek to complicate matters when reading the Word of God.

Jesus was somewhat rebuking the false wisdom of the world and the errors of those who rejected him and those who trusted in their own understandings and worldly wisdom. The babes he revealed things to would have been the simple followers who were heard and trusted him. He also said that no man knows the father or the Son but by revelation. No study or commentaries or religious practices or sacraments etc can make a person know the Father or the Son, it is by revelation. yes we hear the word and the word works in those who come to him and believe. But it is again by revelation. Many today scoff at walking in the revelation and leading of God in them. Many actually do not believe that Jesus Christ is in them in a real sense in Spirit. They seem to think they can Know God and the things of God by natural learning and Greek and hebrews study alone and commentaries etc. But Jesus said no man knows tGod this way only by revelation. Paul also echoes this in 1 Cor 2 and says that the natural man knows not the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them.

The complicated matters come when some try to "with many words" try to make things like water baptism part of the gospel or a required ceremony of obedience or your not saved teaching. We see this in part when Paul said

It is only those who believe they are advanced in knowledge who have these secret mysteries.

No Paul spoke of the mysteries of God that are only known in the Spirit and the ones Jesus rebukes did not receive him or the truth, They used their carnal reasoning and doubt and intellectual assent and wisdom of the world etc.

We don’t ask these questions because a Christian is not supposed to doubt what God’s Word says

NO, it is not doubt about God's word being true. It is seeking understanding and revelation in God's word, that is hidden from the natural carnal intellectual wisdom of the world and trust in mans scholarship. Believers should always prove all things and search and seek for understanding. Jesus wasn't against any asking questions. In fact he says "ask and ye shall receive..." We also read verses like "prove all things".

We do not doubt the Holy scriptures are true we simply see what they reveal. For example we read of many believers sinning and doing things in ignorance and even being rebuked by Jesus. We read of men after God's own heart like David sinning and other stories of this kind. It os not wrong to examine in faith these scriptures and ask why they did that and what was the circumstances of that event and to see if and where they might have not had full knowledge.

Jesus said clearly,

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

or assume that an apostle of God is acting falsely (without any direct evidence in Scripture).

But we do not assume anything unless the scripture shows it.

We read jesus words to Peter and the apostles in many places. He sometimes rebuked them and even told Peter to get thee behind me Satan, when Peter gave wrong direction to jesus. Jesus said that Peter would deny him three times with a curse. We don't have to assume Peter had some growing and learning to do and at time did not understand some things. The scripture is very clear on this, for example, Paul corrects the kind of undrstanding that would put men like Peter John or even himself above others in a too high position. He says

"But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:"(Galatians 2:6 KJV)

Then Paul said

"11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."(Galatians 2:11-16 KJV)

Notice here that clearly Peter was in error and the very truth of the gospel was in danger. Also part of the issue was adding works to the gospel and seeking to be justified by such works. There was also a misunderstanding of the Jew and gentile issue. But God was gracious with them, guiding them along. Peter also in Acts 10 when God told him to slay and eat unclean animals, said "not so Lord.." He was not in the right understanding about what God told him and even seemed to try and argue with God about it. God corrected him and told him not to think that way.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus told Peter to not leave Jerusalem.
So if Jesus wanted Peter to steer clear of the temple, then He should have told him to go to a place where there is no temple.
In fact, Jesus did not instruct Peter to not go to the temple, either (If such a thing was wrong).
It was not wrong to go to a temple. It would only be wrong to make sacrifices in that temple (Which they did not do at Pentecost).

God allowed them to transition, or the time of reformation as scripture teaches. God also had pPaul and others led by the Spirit to help the church / Jesus said he had many things to say and to judge of them, but they could not bear them at that time. But He said the Holy Ghost would guide them into all truth. This takes time. A man cannot act against his conscience and whatsoever is not of faith is sin. It would have been too much for the Jewish believers to bear at the very beginning to say they don't need any old covenant any more or a temple, or sacrifices etc. They would have trouble to understand that at the first. God allowed the decay slowly and vanishing away of the old covenant as we read in Hebrews 8.

And the Jewish believers did sacrifice animals again as we read in Acts21. and they kept the whole law and customs of the Jews. So even though we don't read of a specific animals sacrifice in Acts 2. These sacrifices were always going on in the temple.

And Paul even went into the temple to be a Jew to the Jews. He condescended (as i see it) to the issue at hand). But many of the letters in the New testament speak of no more sacrifices needed or temple or Mosaic law or circumcision etc.

It is not clear because it is not written. No verse or passage says Peter acted wrongfully in Acts as you propose.

Jesus would sometime quote scripture and ask how do they interpret it?

Some things are written but are hidden in the same place. For example Jesus speaks parables that are mysteries and even knowing the Greek won't reveal the meaning unless it is spiritually understood.

And Yes we do read passages where Peter was in an unclear mind about certain things. God allowed much and God is very gracious and longsuffering.

We read even peter saying that Paul in all his writings spoke things hard to be understood. So we can safely "ASSUME", that Peter himself did not understand everything Paul wrote so easily. Peter also as I showed was in error in Galatians 2 and paul withstood him to the face because he was to be blamed. When Peter spoke and acted as he did in Acts 2 and all through Acts, it must be understood based on scripture, that Peter was till attached to the law and temple system and the old covenant and Johns water baptism in many ways.

It would suggest that Pentecost (the birth of the church) was not event led perfectly by God.

No it wouldn't if you understand the transition in Axts and the Jew Gentile issues. The church was empowered on pentecost and God was working with them. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. So if they already had all truth before the Holy Ghost was given, then what would that mean? why would they need the Holy Ghost? They were still in need of many things and we even see this tension in Acts 15 when there was a large discussion and tension about the law and the Gentiles etc. This was many years after Christ death.

So if you were there at Pentecost, would you receive Peter or would you think he was in error for being at the temple?

I being a gentile would only be able to look on and wonder. The Jewish believers at that time d d not go mightily to the gentiles yet. We see this many years later in Acts 10, even though in Matthew Jesus told Peter and others to go to all the world and yet they did not do this or seem to understand till a revelation was given.

I don't think there was an error so much on Pentecost, as I showed that the Jews were allowed for a time of reformation to continue in the law and to hopefully gain wisdom and leading by the Spirit and come out of it. God allowed them possibly until 70 AD.

Paul for example being a jew had abundant revelations of the end of the law and the temple and sacrifices and the old priesthood etc. But some did not see that even though Paul tried to speak it to them.

I am not trying to say peter was not a mighty man of God. he was in Christ and walked according to the light he had and was given. It is not safe to go beyond that or to act contrary to your conscience. Peter for example was still under the Halakah law and Mosaic law in Acts 10. He also sai he never ate anything unclean and so was practicing the law there also. Was peter in error to do so?. Well he was being given knowledge to be free and be able to eat anything sand reach the Gentiles. So God lead him along. Peter received this and was mightily used.

It is a hidden narrative making assumptions off certain verses and it accuses the apostles of making a mistake (Where there is none). It’s creating a false charge or judgment against them based on circumstantial evidence. I personally would not want to sit in judgment of the apostles based on circumstantial evidence that could not even hold up in a court of law.

I am not attacking the apostles or falsely accusing them. I already showed that the jews, Peter included were obviously ( as we read in scripture) still working through the decaying Old Covenant that was ready to vanish and pass away. But it had not happened yet. i also would never assume anything unless I had a clear scripture about such things. We have various scriptures about things Peter did and was struggling with. Paul said he was to be blamed in Galatians 2. So are we to say that Paul was judging falsely Peter and Paul is in danger at judgement day? No, in no way. Paul was being faithful He said it makes no matter who a man is in his person alone.

The evidence is not weak about these things. There is no doubt that the temple system with priest and sacrifices was continued for many years after Christ and that many believing Jewish christians were still under the law and old covenant and sacrifices. We can consider if Peter was part of that even way back in Acts 21. That is another study. But I see God being patient with them and leading them along and guiding them to all truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Alan Ballou believes in what is called “Initial Salvation, and Final Salvation.” Other Christians believe this doctrine, as well (of which you can research online). I actually held to the same view on the two aspects of salvation (of which I name differently) long before I even heard this term because the Bible has led me to that truth. I have done my own studies that we are saved first INITIALLY by God's grace without works through faith (a belief alone). But after we are saved by God's grace, we need to continue in the faith and enter a secondary aspect of salvation of which the Bible describes as the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13). This is a call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14 - and the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12).

hello again.

I don't agree with that understanding or teaching.

If one keeps hearing a lie as being true long enough, then they can be conditioned to believe it and they will not be able to hear what God's Word really says on a particular topic in the Bible because of that lie. Most of your Christian churches today believe it's all a belief alone in Jesus to be saved plus nothing else. Most Christian articles are filled with the thought that it's faith without works and nothing else to enter the Kingdom because they misunderstand Paul's words in his various letters on that topic. Some see that abstaining from sin or walking after the Spirit is work or effort on our part. So they hold to the view that all they need to do is just believe really hard in Jesus as their Savior, and they are good to enter the Kingdom despite them abiding in sin or in refusing to do what He says.

I do however believe, (as you may know) that a christian can fall away from grace and be lost forever. But as scripture shows, Christ dwells in our heart by faith. As we continue in the faith Gods grace had been working in us to will and to do.

I do believe that no Christian can do good without God doing the good work through that person (Philippians 2:13) (John 15:5).
I believe Christians are changed in the new birth when they first receive Jesus Christ as their Savior because that is what happened to me.
But we also have free will, and we have to choose daily to either follow Jesus (According to His words and the words of His followers), or we follow our own path or way. It really is that simple.

While I know your not a Calvinist, what you propose above here sounds like a light version on one of the points of Calvinism. It sounds like God is going to force you to obey or do good because you made a one time decision to accept Jesus or because you believe really hard on the finished work of the cross for salvation. I don't buy into that if that is what you are suggesting. In fact, one Christian testimony I heard was interesting. He said he struggled with sin. His pastors and teachers kept telling him to believe. That he just needed to believe more so he could overcome. So that's what he did. For hours out of the week he strived to just believe more and focus on believing more. But he still kept on sinning. It wasn't until he started to just read the Bible for himself alone without his teachers talking in his ear and telling him what to believe whereby he was set free. This believer started to follow God's instructions in the New Testament by faith. He started to do things for the Lord Jesus by faith, and it gave him the strength (by the power of God) to overcome his sins. This is biblical. Walk after the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). 1 Peter 4:1-2 says basically that if we suffer in the flesh we can cease from sin. The Scriptures are inspired by the Spirit. So if we follow the instructions in the New Testament says by faith, we are walking by the Spirit. So if you love God, and love your neighbor, love your brother, love your enemies by the Word of God by faith, then you are in the faith. If you refuse to help the poor in this life and step over them as they cry for food and you say... “I am saved by believing in Jesus plus nothing else including my not helping you”... this will not end well for you. Granted, I am sure you would not say that or do that. But the point here is that we have to do things in love by faith according to what is written. The Lord is not going to force Himself upon a person. We have to count the cost in following Jesus and then we are to follow Him. For if we save our life, we will lose it. But if we lose our life for Christ's sake, we will save it.

It is God who makes us perfect unto every good work through Christ and empowers us, gives us love and gifts etc. Yes we must walk in the new man in Christ and daly deny the flesh through Gods power crucifying being buried and rising in our walk in Christ daily. But this is the power of the gospel as we live in it always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in us.

Then why do you disagree with Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy life as a part of salvation? The above words you have written here sounds like you agree with me on holy living as a part of our salvation. This is why it sounds like you are speaking in contradictory terms. You are either for holy living as a part of God's plan of salvation or you are against it. There is no inbetween. It's not... I believe and I just sit back and relax on my sofa and do nothing while God will just one day force me to live holy one day.

(Continued in my next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

These works ( not ceremonial dead works of the OT or as some try today to make part of the New Covenant)

I know you think this is referring to baptism in Jesus' name but that practice by the apostles was never labeled as such.
Only John's baptism was labeled as being a part of the Old Law. Again, the problem I have with your view here on the baptism issue is that your viewpoint is not clearly written. But then again, you don't believe that the Bible is the primary rule of faith.

The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

The Bible as our primary rule of faith is the real issue that divides us in our understanding on this issue (i.e. baptism).
I now go by only what Scripture makes clear, and you are making inferences off certain verses at the expense of other ones.
I was not able to see it until recently the problem of my believing in the position of Spirit baptism replacing water baptism.
One has to create a secret hidden narrative in one's own mind and speak against certain things that happened by God in the New Testament.

are spiritual in nature and flow from a heart in faith daily.

Then why are we told to continue in the faith? (See: Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
It does not sound like things are always automatic if that is the case.
Granted, God can help us to be faithful, but we have to abide in Him and His good ways.
If we abide in sin, or if we are lazy in doing God's work, then sin will rule over us.
Jesus said, “...whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.” (See: John 8:34) (NKJV).

For our faith WORKETH by love.

Yes, I agree with Galatians 5:6.

Galatians 5:6 says,
“...faith which worketh by love.”

But I am not sure you are grasping what it is saying here.
Our faith... does not remain as a belief alone in Jesus plus nothing else.
But faith which WORKS (like doing certain things) by love (or in love).

Paul is saying what matters is not the acts of the Old Law like circumcision, but faith that works by love.
We see a similar thing.

1 Corinthians 7:19 says
“Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.”

This would be the laws of Christ in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 9:21). This is what matters. Not the keeping of the Old Law like circumcision, Sabbath day keeping, dietary laws, holy days, etcetera. Yes, even John's water baptism is no more. But nothing is ever said that baptism in the name of Jesus has ended. This is what the apostles did and God never rebuked them on that practice ever (even though we see that practice done multiple times after the resurrection).

The victory that over comes the world is our faith 1 John 5. Some might say, "how does just having faith and continuing in it overcome the world? , don't we have to do something in our flesh to make it happen" No, the flesh is a vehicle of our spiritual man. But we do not walk or live in the flesh as a new creation., The rule of faith and practice is to live in Christ and the new creation. as scripture shows. So the works idea is not accurate of we think that we need to add to the grace of God and His salvation in Christ and the work of that grace in our heats.

By faith, Noah prepared an Ark to the saving of his house (Hebrews 11:7). While faith can be a belief alone at times in the Bible, this example in Hebrews 11:7 shows clearly that faith can also be our obeying God's instructions that He has given us. For if we do not obey God in what He says, then we are not truly believing or trusting Him. Noah was able to overcome that evil world by faith because his faith included obeying God in building the Ark (whereby that evil world perished). If Noah just believe really hard and did nothing, he would have perished. A belief alone would not have saved Noah. Neither was Noah being forced against his will to obey God because he had a belief alone, either.

A believer can overcome this world and or sin by faith in doing what God has told us to do.

"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16). "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14). "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).

Notice Romans 6:22. It says you have become servants to God, and that means you have your fruit unto holiness.

The rest of what you wrote will have to wait. I need to sleep, and I have things I have to do tomorrow.

May the Lord Jesus bless you and your family (even if we disagree).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@LoveofTruth

Here are...


Works For Salvation Verses
(After We Are First Saved By God’s Grace Without Works):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
    
    
15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
    
    
16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).
    
    
17. ”Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).
    
    
18. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

 

[LoveofTruth]

While I know your not a Calvinist, what you propose above here sounds like a light version on one of the points of Calvinism. It sounds like God is going to force you to obey or do good because you made a one time decision to accept Jesus or because you believe really hard on the finished work of the cross for salvation.
:

No, I don't teach that. We are not robotrons, we are a new creation in Christ but we still have a will . Even though in Christ we have the power and strength to overcome the flesh there is still a war and we may also choose not to yield to the Spirit. Its the yielding to the Spirit and not the flesh that is what I speak of.

Yes we must be holy and the result of being holy is the holiness that flows from a faithful life. This is seen in fruits of the spirit and by a unmeasurable number of acts we can do in the body.

But as far as a ceremony or ordinance or diverse washings, these are called "dead works' they do not save us or add to the gospel or are even needed in to be sanctified today.

We see some of this in Hebrews 6 when it says we must repent of "dead works". and in Hebrews 9 about the blood of Christ through the eternal Spirit purge our conscience of dead works to serve the living God. The context of dead works there was a few verses previous where we read that diverse washings and carnal ordinances can not make us clean as pertaining to the conscience. 1n 1 Peter 3:21, we read that the saving baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, (or an outward washing with water), but it is an inward work, "(the answer [or inquiry, because our conscience is inquiring how to be clean] of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now Christ has accomplished the work and risen from the dead, giving us a full assurance of hope and now our conscience can have knowledge of this , We are also risen with him and know that saving grace inwardly. The word "conscience" is an important word in scripture. Check out the way it is used in the New testament.

But in the water baptism discussion we see that no water or diverse washings or carnal ordinances can make the conscience clean, so these are not the works as part of the spiritual walk in faith. As we read in Hebrews 9, They still needed to have continual sacrifices and reminded of their sin. Thats because the word conscience has a meaning of two words, "con" with, "science" knowledge, or with knowledge. The OT saints did not have the full knowledge of the finished work of Christ as we do now. They could not know the end of the types and shadows yet, s they were still imposed on them. But now we can know that and have a clean and purged conscience as we read here.

consider

". The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"(1 Peter 3:21 KJV)

and with

"The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"(Hebrews 9:8-16 KJV)

Then why do you disagree with Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy life as a part of salvation? The above words you have written here sounds like you agree with me on holy living as a part of our salvation. This is why it sounds like you are speaking in contradictory terms. You are either for holy living as a part of God's plan of salvation or you are against it. There is no inbetween. It's not... I believe and I just sit back and relax on my sofa and do nothing while God will just one day force me to live holy one day.

I believe that we must be holy and walk in the holiness that comes from Gods power.

maybe the understanding f what it means to be holy is causing some confusion and the words
holy" and holiness. They are similar to "righteous", and "righteousness". To be holy is to be in Christ at salvation by grace through faith. Then as we read in scripture Christ shall dwell in your heart by faith. To have God dwelling in our hearts is holy. We are cleansed from all sin and God can dwell in our hearts as we are in clean conscience and faith. That being holy is like being made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. But we don't just stay there. If we are holy, then from within as God works in us and as we are fellow labourers with God in our new man, choosing to will to walk and yielding to the Spirit and not to the flesh we will show forth "holiness", and we perfect that holiness in the fear of God. Yes it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God for God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. We however must also abide, choose, continue in faith and pick up our cross denying ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly righteously and godly. This is what God teaches us to do inwardly by His grace. The new man alone can walk in this. It all flows from faith and the new man in Christ. I am pointing this out to show the kind of works we do, Not ceremonies and ritual s to accomplish this. But the fruit of the spirit. We also must be saved and walking in the grace and faith to show forth such works. Just as if we are righteous in Christ we will show forth that righteousness. So if God is in us we will be in the new life and must then walk in the spirit.

A person is saved by initial grace through faith, then they must continue in the faith and so are being saved daily as they abide, and they must overcome to the end to finally be saved. But all this is was they continue in the grace of God and the faith. The grace of God and the work involved in this is another long discussion. many do not really examine what the grace of God is. They have a partial answer. This is Gods divine influence upon the heart through Christ in us and the working inwardly that shows forth outwardly. Let your light so shine before men that they may glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Yes there is a war between the flesh and the spirit and we need to daily pic up our cross and die to the world and flesh. But not one ounce of this work comes from our old dead man. it all comes from faith where God dwells in us and we yield to the Spirit. Yes there will be suffering in the flesh even unto death sometimes. But the power and direction and leading and life and fruit of the spirit comes from within. for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and the life flows. Guard your heart, for out o it are the issues of life.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I know you think this is referring to baptism in Jesus' name but that practice by the apostles was never labeled as such.

Actually we see clearly in the scripture that the apostles and most of the Jews in fact were still under the law and sacrifices and customs of the jews and I believe Peter and the other apostles were as well for a time. God was slowly revealing the New Covenant understanding to them. But the diverse washings and carnal ordinances, can include any carnal ordinances or any diverse washings. Johns water baptism was a ordinance from God for Israel. This was OT still. And it can be shown clearly that Peter was still following Johns water baptism many many , many years after Christ death. Acts 10, 11.

Consider this again about the Jewish christians still under the law and customs and sacrifices

"And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them."(Acts 21:18-26)

we cannot just ignore these type of clear verses in scripture. They change the entire way we see the Jewish believers in Acts and many of the things they did. And that vow as i understand was a Nazzarite vow which required animal sacrifices in this instance.

what would you say to a person who tried to use this section to say that Jewish christians should still sacrifice animals and have all the priest and rituals of the temple and follow closely to the customs of the Jews (Halakah law etc)?

Only John's baptism was labeled as being a part of the Old Law. Again, the problem I have with your view here on the baptism issue is that your viewpoint is not clearly written. But then again, you don't believe that the Bible is the primary rule of faith.

We can see clearly Peter following Johns water baptism in the New Covenant many many years after Christ death . Consider,

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."(Acts 11:15,16 KJV)

And as I showed in my study about the rule of faith and practice. I showed clearly that the rule is to live in the new creation in Christ. The scriptures are a secondary part of that to that being given by the Spirit and understood only in the Spirit. But if a man doesn't have Christ in him at the new birth then he cannot understand the scriptures. So the primary rule is to live in Christ as scripture teaches.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."Galatians 6:5,6 KJV)

Also it is evident that scripture alone cannot be the only rule of faith. For men like Abraham and Abel and many OT saints did not have scripture yet and they were still in faith. Read Hebrews 11 again.

The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

Yes i would encourage all here to read my comments in that study. As far as I can see there is no answer against this. Did Abraham have scriptures? was he a example of our faith? That should end the discussion, or at least begin it.

The Bible as our primary rule of faith is the real issue that divides us in our understanding on this issue (i.e. baptism).

No this is not our issue here. I believe strongly in the Holy scriptures given by the Spirit and understood only by the Spirit. But it may be somewhat connected in fact. If we do not look at scripture in a spiritual way and are drawn into the natural or carnal ordinances and types and impose them on New testament believers, then the scriptures are not seen aright as i understand.

I now go by only what Scripture makes clear, and you are making inferences off certain verses at the expense of other ones.
I was not able to see it until recently the problem of my believing in the position of Spirit baptism replacing water baptism.
One has to create a secret hidden narrative in one's own mind and speak against certain things that happened by God in the New Testament.

No secret narrative that I created. It is clearly seen in scripture as I have been showing. Interpretation of scripture is a whole other issue and how we know the things of God.

If we do not for example believe that God actually speaks today and speaks in us and works literally in us and gives the gifts of the Holy Ghost to believers today and we deny the power , then there will be an issue. Our understanding may be flawed then. It depends on the spiritual aspect. That spiritual aspect is very troubling to the flesh and carnal mind. i have met many who cringe at anything spiritual or supernatural. But they go way off when they miss this.

I Then why are we told to continue in the faith? (See: Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

because by faith we enter into the grace wherein we stand. If we do not continue n the faith we can fall away and Christ will leave us and deny us if we deny him. Paul did say that the way they got saved and keep being saved is to believe the gospel. i would also add his other words about the union we have in the gospel power, by being crucified with Christ , buried with him and risen with him. Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal bodies.

Consider how we are saved and KEEP saved. Look closely for any works of the flesh we do added to this. Especially ceremonies and ordinances or water baptism etc.

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

 

[LoveofTruth]

@LoveofTruth

Here are...


Works For Salvation Verses
(After We Are First Saved By God’s Grace Without Works):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
    
    
15. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
    
    
16. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).
    
    
17. ”Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).
    
    
18. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

If we are saved in Christ the works of God flow from that salvation. God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto EVERY GOOD WORK, working in us through Jesus Christ.

as scripture plainly says.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and the life flows. Guard your heart, for out of it are the issues of life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Now that would be a very serious heresy. I cannot work with any downtown who deny the Trinity. Is he a oneness heretic or some other version of the God head?

I can agree with a particular topic by a believer and not agree with them on other things. But I would not fellowship or work with a believer who would deny the Trinity. I only agree with his teaching on how faith works, Sanctification, and his view of how sin can separate us from God. For example: I may quote a Protestant in my agreeing with the Trinity, but that does not mean I agree with their view of Soteriology or their view of sin. Most today believe you can sin and still be saved on some level (Even when they talk of how you must live holy as a part of salvation). They double speak as I have shown to you by the Gotquestions article on backsliding.

I don't ignore any of them. They all have a proper understanding in the work of faith inwardly understood and God making us perfect from within unto every good work, through Christ. Paul says that Christ as the head works effectually in the measure of every part making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love (Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)

So do you believe BY FAITH Noah prepared an Ark to the saving of his house?
This is not a belief alone type faith.
Do you believe that we are justified by works and not by faith alone according to James 2:24?

all heretics I have met are the same. They think they alone have all the truth and will not allow you to question them or expose them.

The trinity heresy makes him a arch heretic

I think Alan is an odd duck. He is not like others I have talked with before. Alan builds his theology solely on what he sees the Bible says alone (and he appears to reject any Christian teachings by other believers). But yes. I agree that it is heresy to deny the Trinity. I have shown him the verses on the Trinity by email. His understanding is totally off the charts about God. He seems unsure. At one point he guesses and possibly sees six mentioned in 1 John 5:7-8 (as if God is possibly six) which is wrong (And I pointed out to him why it was wrong). While I could be mistaken, Alan also implied that the communicated Word of God (like Scripture or the spoken Word of God) became flesh. Alan does not understand that the Living Word (second person of the Trinity) became flesh. But as we know, Scripture says, Jesus said He came down from Heaven. He appears to be Bible Alone, so if he sticks with the Bible, I believe he may eventually figure it out (Especially if other believers are praying for him on it).

Update:

I am attempting to remove all videos from Alan Ballou (that I posted before).

While I liked Alan Ballou’s videos before on Sanctification and putting away sin and they were really helpful, the problem is he is a false accuser of the brethren. In the YouTube comment section in this video here, Alan Ballou falsely accused me of several things that I are not actually true. I said that while I agreed with his viewpoint on how there are two aspects of salvation, I told him that I disagree with his view on “obeying the gospel.” I told him “obeying the gospel“ is defined for us in Romans 10 in that it is believing the gospel message. He also implied there was no free will when we come to the Lord (Which is Calvinism), and he used John 6 as an example. I explained to him why this is not Calvinism and instead of disagreeing in love and respect, he started to falsely accuse me (as if I had teachers, and I went to bible college - when that is not the case). I tried to tell him in love that he was falsely accusing me here, and he never replied back. You can see the conversation under the same username I use here (Bible Highlighter) with there being 16 replies to my comment to him. I refuse to watch or endorse somebody who falsely accuses other Christians.

and his two forms of salvation is a dangerous one.

He did not invent it. Other believers long before him have discovered this teaching in Scripture, as well. By the way you speak it sounds like you believe that we are…

#1. Saved by God’s grace through faith without works initially.
#2. Saved by living holy by the Sanctification of the Spirit.

Please tell me which aspect of salvation you disagree with above here. Please keep in mind that I believe grace does help us to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). I also believe we can do nothing without the Lord working in us, too (John 15:5). But we do have free will to either obey or not obey, and God does give us works that we have to do in this life that is a part of the faith (and it is not outside of the faith). You made an attempt to explain before of why you disagree, but all I heard was you appearing to agree with these two aspects of salvation. You did not say that we are not initially saved by God’s grace without works. You also did not appear to teach that we do not have to live holy as a part of the Sanctification of the Spirit as a part of entering the Kingdom.

The Church of Christ and the Catholic Church both wrongfully think that you have to do a work to be INITIALLY saved by God’s grace like participating in water baptism. I see water baptism as something that is a part of our faith (of which I know you don’t agree with). It is my conviction by what God’s Word says. I believe it is possible that the baptism issue could fall into the realm of a conscience issue (like with eating certain foods, etc. as mentioned in Romans 14) because one can provide biblical evidences for and against water baptism in the name of Jesus. So I would not see this as a dividing issue. I prefer to play things more safely and do only what is clearly written. For me: The evidence for Spirit baptism replacing water baptism are based off inferences in Scripture and not hold cold hard facts or declarations made in New Testament Scripture.

If people don't understand the rule of faith as I described in the Christian forum site, and how God works in us to will and to do. Then they will misunderstand all the references to good works we do. This is a deeply spiritual thing and many do not see things spiritually they see only naturally and with bias from commentators of the past who also did not see the rule of faith or spiritual realities.

I don’t believe a person can be saved without hearing the words of Scripture in some form or another. This is why the Bible is the primary rule of faith. But God is not separate from His Word. I believe God always abides by His Word. For as Scripture says, His Word will not return void.

…many today have a form of godliness but deny the power, we are to withdraw from them. The word power there is the same word used for the power of the Spirit poured out n Acts.

Again, it comes down to our choice or free will also to cooperate with God by faith. Hence, when God tells in His Word for us to say help the poor or there are consequences to our soul in not doing so, we have to choose of our own will and cooperate with GOD in doing that good work (Which is backed by His power and working).

well, Ive met many heretics and they all act the same way. They even bind up those who they control and don't allow them to talk to us either.

I was able to discuss certain things with Alan Ballou, and by watching his videos and talking with him by email he does not come off as a cult leader (And I have studied the characteristics of what makes cult leaders).

Now, there is one man in whom I have talked with that sounded dangerously close to being a cult leader (a man named Alan Manson at Mygospel.info) and I broke off communications with him and blocked his email. Alan Manson (not Alan Ballou) had special insight not found in the Bible that one is born again sometime a while after one is Initially Saved. Alan Manson (Not Alan Ballou) falsely believes in the Pre-Existence of the soul for the Christian (i.e. Meaning saints lived in Heaven before they were born into this world). This is all false obviously. I was willing to agree to disagree with him, but he started to treat me like an enemy and how I had no understanding, and there was a wall between us, etcetera. So I moved on from trying to reach him.

Cult mindsets are dangerous. If we cannot freely discuss scripture and question teachings then we are bound up under a mans tradition or false doctrine and bondage he tries to bring us in. First, the church is under Christ headship , not man as the head and all can share with eachother. No one man has the power to allow or not allow any believer to share. And secondly, if I was visiting the church, (not just him) they should be careful to entertain strangers and not judge me before they first hear me. If they disagree with the message I share than so be it. I will be clear of them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If we are saved in Christ the works of God flow from that salvation. God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto EVERY GOOD WORK, working in us through Jesus Christ.

as scripture plainly says.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and the life flows. Guard your heart, for out of it are the issues of life.

It is written:

Titus 3:14
“And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.”

Why do we have to learn to maintain good works if it is just an automatic outflow of salvation?

Titus 3:14 basically says that God’s people must learn to maintain good work so that they be not unfruitful.

Titus 3:8
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”

Why do we have to affirm constantly good works with others who have believed in God if they are just an automatic outflow of one being saved?

Matthew 3:8
“Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:”

Why is John the Baptist telling others to bring forth fruits meet (befitting of) for repentance if it is just an automatic outflow of one being saved?

Why did Jesus give us the parable of the unprofitable servant in Matthew 25?
What was the point of that if works of God just always flow from salvation?

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

The faith would be things like… what Noah did in Hebrews 11:7.
That’s one way to describe faith. So while faith may start off as a belief alone, it does not remain that way. Many in the Protestant Belief Alone camp get tripped up by the word works in Ephesians 2:8-9. They think Paul is saying that no works whatsoever at any point in a believer’s life will save. But this is not what we read when we check out other verses in our New Testament. If we refuse to do the good work of helping the poor and or preaching the gospel, things will not go well for us. God does not force us to do these works against our will. We have to choose to do them (Even though God does the good works through them if they are saved and abiding in Christ and choosing to obey God by His Word).

As you said. We are not robotrons. We have free will to do what God says or not (even if God does influence to do good and He does the good work through us when we act out in faith). Do you believe God calls us to do good works? Ephesians 2:10 says we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. So is God calling us to do good works? Is that not a part of the faith? Are we not justified by faith?

Side Note:

I don’t believe the works in Ephesians 2:9 is the same work mentioned in Ephesians 2:10. I believe Paul was arguing against the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” This was the false belief that said you had to first be circumcised to be initially saved (Which runs contrary to being initially saved by God’s grace). See Acts 15:1, and compare with Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 4:9-12, Romans 3:1.

The works of the Old Law like circumcision would be in view in Ephesians 2:9. This type of work that we are not initially saved by. As for Ephesians 2:10, these are works that are a part of our faith. Paul even says there is a work of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). Boasting is excluded when it comes to the faith (See: Romans 3:27). For if God is telling you to do something we cannot boast in ourselves because we are merely following what God told us to do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Some might say, "how does just having faith and continuing in it overcome the world? , don't we have to do something in our flesh to make it happen" No, the flesh is a vehicle of our spiritual man. But we do not walk or live in the flesh as a new creation., The rule of faith and practice is to live in Christ and the new creation. as scripture shows. So the works idea is not accurate of we think that we need to add to the grace of God and His salvation in Christ and the work of that grace in our heats. The works flow from Christ and our new creation in Him. And as the body without the spirit is dead so a believer in faith without Gods Spirit working in him is dead as well. But if we are in Christ we will have a new heart and new motives and desires and actions. We will be working in some measure all the time in Christ. If we do not continue in this faith by which we enter int the grace that works in our lives then we die and can depart from the living God through the deceitfulness of sin and an evil heart of unbelief (Hebrews 3L12 and on) , Notice there that the reason men depart from God is not because of a work in the flesh but an evil heart of UNBELIEF. No works in our flesh can save us or ceremonies or rituals. God saves us through the work of Christ n the cross who died for our sins according to the scripture and was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. That is His work of the gospel without us and for us. But as we have faith and believe the gospel, then we enter into the grace that saves us inwardly and we also participate in the gospel in a daily way, we die with Christ are buried with him and risen with him t the newness of life and as we through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body we live.

John 14:23 says:
“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”

John 15:10 says:
“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”

So the idea here is not just believing and you will keep His commandments. Jesus says if you keep my commandments, you shall abide in His love. So Jesus is saying that we should focus on doing what he is telling us to do.

So the reality of these things according to many clear scriptures is not what this man says or others who would add our own flesh works to the salvation. No flesh shall glory in His presence. No works of the flesh are part of the gospel. The gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4 and Paul says we keep saved by believing it, because we are not trusting in our works or ceremonies etc but in God's work without us and in us at the new birth. . Dome have trouble with just continue in faith and grace idea. They need works of the flesh, but that is not what scripture teaches. Remember Christ shall dwell in your heart by faith and Jesus aid "without me, ye can do nothing{ John 15. But I can do all things through Christ which sanctifies me and dwells in me.

But Jesus’s point was if we did not abide in Him and do good works, we would be cut off like a branch. The same idea is in the Parable of the Talents. The unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. The lesson of the Parable is telling us to be profitable for the kingdom. It would be a pointless parable if things are just an outflow of being saved and by abiding in Christ. One has an assurance that they abide in Christ if they find they are keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3).

If we have a good tree it WILL produce good fruit. The fruit is not before the salvation or life of the tree. Abide in Christ and walk in the spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Romans 6:22 comes to mind again.

“But now having been set free from sin,
and having become slaves of God,
you have your fruit to holiness, and the end,
everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22) (NKJV).

Meaning, if we become a slave to God by learning to live righteously, we will have our fruit unto holiness, and the end result is everlasting life. It’s not automatic. It’s not like we are on autopilot whereby the works will just happen always. We have to actively choose to do the works in God’s Word as it is written. As you said before, we are not robotrons. We have free will to do His work or not. If Noah did not build the Ark by faith, he would have perished.

Also, Galatians 6:8-9 says,
“For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”

We can be weary in well doing and potentially faint according to this passage above. This in relation to sowing to the Spirit in reaping everlasting life.

Well doing is good works.
Well doing is sowing to the Spirit.
Sowing to the Spirit is reaping everlasting life.

The only two fold aspect of the gospel is the work of God for us on the cross without us, and His work in us at the new birth. This is even typified in scripture when we see Moses cross the red sea and Joshua cross the Jordan with the ark and the people into the promised land.

By faith the walls of Jericho fell. The Israelites did not just sit there and believe that the walls of Jericho would fall. They marched around the city seven times. They had to do something as a part of their faith. That’s what your not getting.

In Moses we see him saying, "stand still and see the salvation of the Lord" Stand still shows that we do nothing. But in Joshua crossing the river, we see that the ark went first and Joshua is a type of Christ also, and they took 12 stones and put them in the river and twelve stone out into the new land. Then Joshua sand the people defeated the enemies in the land. We see a type here of Christ coming with us int the new land spiritually speaking and defeating the enemies.

This was said by Moses right before the parting of the Red Sea would happen. After the Red Sea was departed: The Israelites still needed to cross the Red Sea by faith. If they did nothing and did not cross the Red Sea they would have been killed by the Egyptians because they disobeyed God (or did not trust Him). They believed enough to trust God in following God across the Red Sea that was parted. Granted, they later fell in the wilderness due to their sins (which is due to their subsequent unbelief). But the point here is that the Israelites were not asked to do nothing. Moses saying to the Israelites to stand still would be taking the Scriptures out of context to what would happen next (Which is the Israelites crossing the Red Sea physically by faith). The Israelites did not do nothing.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So do you believe BY FAITH Noah prepared an Ark to the saving of his house?
This is not a belief alone type faith.
Do you believe that we are justified by works and not by faith alone according to James 2:24?

Firstly, I do believe that a good tree will produce good fruit. It will happen as Jesus said, no amount of our flesh can make spiritual fruit happen. And we do not crucify the flesh by the flesh. It is not just try harder in your flesh to overcome the world. But I do also believe we are fellow labourers with God, we are not robots to be forced by God to act. We must believe and follow Christ and choose to do so, or we will be in trouble and in danger. We walk in the newness of life and in the spirt and God empowers us directs us guides us fills us with love and gifts and he is the one who works in us as scripture teaches.

Secondly, when we read that Naoah built an ark to the "saving" of his house. We must define what this saving part refers to. I don't think you would say that a person to be spiritually saved or born again must build a physical ark? So this would seem to refer to the physical salvation from the flood coming. So the issue is clouded if we add works to spiritual salvation again, in this case or any in Hebrews 11.

And Justification is another long discussion, we read in scripture that we are justified by faith, grace, the blood of Christ by Jesus resurrection, by our words and by Christ and works etc.

But the works that justify us are Gods works on the cross and his work in us all glory is to God. yes our new man can DO all things but this is only through Christ in spirit he flesh is crucified and is only used as a means to express the love and grace of God in an outflow of faith which worketh by love. No ceremonies or water baptism or circumcision or any other dead works can accomplish this. Nor physically making an ark.

So when James says do you SEE how a man is justified by works and not by faith only. The seeing part is a key. You can show your faith by the works. This is the evidence of a living faith where aChrist dwells in you and where without Christ we can do nothing. All glory to God. God is said to work in us to will and to do and also to make us perfect unto EVERY good work through Christ *(Hebrews 13:20,21). I know at first that sounds like we are just robots and being moved to action by God with no will or labour in spirit. But it is not like that as scripture shows. There are two men in every believer an old man and the new man. The old man is dead as we abide in faith and where we are walking in the spirit yielding to God and if we through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body we shall live. So on our part is continuing in the faith and in the grace and abiding in him, yielding to the Spirit and walking in the spirit in our daily life. We walk from living in the new man, we look on the things that are not seen and the works we do are Gods works in us and he works.

So it is true that a good tree will produce good fruit and cannot produce bad fruit ( as they abide in Christ I understand through faith and obedience to the gospel and the power of the gospel that they walk in daily, that being the dying with Christ buried with him and risen with him , always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made MANIFEST in us) because God works in us. It is similar to a body with a spirit in it will live and move and act and do things If a body does not have a spirit in it it is dead. So likewise a person who has God working in him is alive and works as he abides and walks in the spirit. Yes it is a war and it is not an easy task to die daily, there is suffering and we know the struggle daily. But we have the comforter to strengthen us and guide us and empower us and give us hope and life and in Christ we can do all things. This all happens through our faith and continual belief in Christ and his work in us. We trust in Gods work for us and in us. These works will show forth and prove that we are justified and being justified by Christ as we walk. But nowhere can we add OT rituals to this or works of the law or ceremonies or diverse washings and carnal ordinances

I am not taking away personal spiritual responsibility for what we do and trying to say we do nothing. We as a new born believer can do all things through Christ. he degree of our walk and work is according to our faith and our commitment to Christ. This is where we read of babes and mature believers, or those who are strong or weak in faith. But again the works are not defined as such things as water baptism for justification which is what you seem to be implying by using the works verses in James.

James is showing also how if you have a real living faith it will be manifest in the life you live and other can see that you are justified with God. if you don't have this how can they see and know this and you would be dead spiritually. The works of a spiritual man show forth Christ working in him and that he is justified by Christ and continuing to be so.

consider these verses

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."(Galatians 2:16,17 KJV)

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."(Matthew 7:17-20 KJV)


"3:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."Acts 13:39)

"4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works."(Romans 4:1-6 KJV)

"6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."(1 Cor. 6:11 KJV) Notice he did not say by your own works in the flesh . Yes we do things in the flesh but we have to take heed to not glorify the flesh. He certainly doesn't not say here water baptism in any way is part of these works.

"3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."(Romans 3:24-28 KJV)

etc there are so many more things to say about justification in Christ. and all the aspects of that."3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

 

[LoveofTruth]

But the point here is that the Israelites were not asked to do nothing. Moses saying to the Israelites to stand still would be taking the Scriptures out of context to what would happen next (Which is the Israelites crossing the Red Sea physically by faith). The Israelites did not do nothing.

Moses said to stand still and see the salvation of the Lord.This salvation is of God. The typical crossing over and walking in the new way God shows is a evidence of that faith where God works in us. So again, the salvation is of the Lord and we stand still, no works to save ourselves. They had to believe and if they did have faith Christ dwells in their hearts also ( even in the OT) and then Christ would be working in then directing them and they must follow him. Yes there is a choice. When they did not follow in faith and evidenced by their actions, they were chastised and judged.

"Ex 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever."

This is similar to them simply looking unto the serpent on the pole to be healed. Then when they did believe and look in faith, they were healed a physical thing took place. In salvation we must first believe and then if we do we are baptized or immerses into Christ at the new birth. An inner action takes place. Then all the works we do in that faith where God works in us to make us perfect unto every good work will manifest in our daily lives and show forth that we are justified. You know a tree by its fruit

again this was a type so there are other aspects to discuss about types.

 

[theefaith]

no. aftger we become believers.

no Mk 16:16 both are together as one sacrament

 

[Ronald Nolette]

no Mk 16:16 both are together as one sacrament

So? we need to believe. and be baptized. If one confesses Jesus but absolutely refuses to be baptized we have every right to question their salvation. Salvation produces a new person designed to desire God and serve and follow Him!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Moses said to stand still and see the salvation of the Lord.This salvation is of God. The typical crossing over and walking in the new way God shows is a evidence of that faith where God works in us. So again, the salvation is of the Lord and we stand still, no works to save ourselves. They had to believe and if they did have faith Christ dwells in their hearts also ( even in the OT) and then Christ would be working in then directing them and they must follow him. Yes there is a choice. When they did not follow in faith and evidenced by their actions, they were chastised and judged.

"Ex 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever."

This is similar to them simply looking unto the serpent on the pole to be healed. Then when they did believe and look in faith, they were healed a physical thing took place. In salvation we must first believe and then if we do we are baptized or immerses into Christ at the new birth. An inner action takes place. Then all the works we do in that faith where God works in us to make us perfect unto every good work will manifest in our daily lives and show forth that we are justified. You know a tree by its fruit

again this was a type so there are other aspects to discuss about types.

If it is true that faith always was the cause for the manifestation of works and secured such a thing, then nobody could ever fall away from the faith because it is easy to believe a set of facts and yet not do anything. If belief was all that was required (Which is easy to do), then God would just force believers to do good works and live holy and they are good to enter the Kingdom. But this is not what we read about concerning the Israelites. John the Baptist told the Israelites in the area to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. John said also about how the axe was laid to the root of the tree. So this was a threat that if they did not do the work, they will be cut down and cast into the fire (See: Luke 3:8-9).

Psalms 81:11 (NKJV)
“But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me.”

So it was not just “not believing” that was the problem, it was their not obeying His voice or instructions. Yes, obedience is tied to the faith, but our obedience or good works in is not separate from the faith. There is a thing called, the “work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). There is a thing called in Scripture… “the obedience of the faith” (Romans 1:5) (Romans 16:26).

Today, I felt God leading me to watch a video by Pastor Mike Winger (Who I know is Protestant). While Pastor Mike Winger seems like a really nice person and genuine, and he reminds me of one of my friends. In fact, he is exceptionally friendly whereby you want to agree with him and be his best friend. But Pastor Mike Winger also is claiming the same unbiblical concept or idea you are claiming here in that works or obedience is the evidence of faith and it is not that works or obedience is the cause of our justification in a salvific sense (After we are saved by God’s grace) and that we don’t need to worry about doing what God says because God will just push us to do what He says because we believe and we abide in Christ. I watched Mike’s video today (even with an open mind that I could be wrong by some stray chance) trying to unravel the mind of the Protestant’s thinking on James 2 and it’s like a hornet’s nest of confusion.

Here is his video I watched today (by which you appear to be saying the same thing).

My quick thought rebuttal to his claim in the video (Which is also your claim) or I should say the Protestant claim (is that works or obedience is evidence of your faith and not that these things justifies you in the sense that it saves you and it is only faith (belief in Jesus) that saves).

#1. If works is just automatic of faith of salvation or it is an outflow or evidence always then why does Paul say to Titus the following things?
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.” (Titus 3:8).
“And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.” (Titus 3:14).
Okay. First, in Titus 3:8: Why do we need to affirm constantly to the brethren that they who believed in God to also be careful to maintain good works if their belief in God will always just outflow or be evidence by works? Titus 3:8 does not appear to fit with this kind of thinking or statement made by Protestants. Second, in Titus 3:14, it says that God’s people are to learn to maintain good works so that they be not unfruitful. So why does Paul tell Titus to let God’s people know to LEARN to maintain good works so as not to be unfruitful if works is always evidence of one’s faith in every case or as a standard rule or truth for all believers? Titus 3:14 does not seem consistent with the Protestant viewpoint here.

#2. If works are just an automatic outflow of salvation and having faith, then why does Galatians 6:8-9 appear to teach against it?
Galatians 6:8-9 says, “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” It’s clear by Galatians 6:8 that sowing to the Spirit means we will reap everlasting life. This sowing to the Spirit is defined in verse 9 (Galatians 6:9). It says let us not be weary in well doing. Well doing is good works and or doing right things. We are told that we will reap if we faint not. This is in well doing (Good works), or by sowing to the Spirit. This passage cannot be any more clear. Only if we have an agenda or preconceived belief (like say by Protestants) will we attempt to re-write the plain meaning of this passage.

#3. If Abraham were justified by faith (a belief) in Genesis 15, then how do we explain Abraham’s obedience to God by faith in Genesis 12? Some Protestants claim that Abraham was justified by faith (a belief - which is one time and permanent and forever) in Genesis 15. If this is the case, then what about what Abraham did before? James 2:17, and James 2:24 are not just evidences of our faith because…
(a) James 1:12 says, “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”. This implies some type of self effort on one’s part along with the help of God to pass the test of God during times of temptation so that one can receive the crown of life (i.e. salvation).
(b) James 1:21 says, “Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.”. So we are to lay apart all filthiness and naughtiness (Which are sinful things) and we are to receive the engrafted word (i.e. New Testament Scripture and it’s instructions in the faith) whereby it is able to save our souls. This involves a level of self effort on our part to put away sin with the help of God. To employ self effort is the same concept behind doing good works. So this is not a belief alone being described here as the only means of one’s salvation being described here. This of course all leads into James 2 (Which drives this point home even more).
(c) In James 2: Some say that Abraham was not justified by his works (in the salvific sense) by offering Isaac upon the altar. But when we compare James 2:21 about how Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac upon the altar and we compare that with Hebrews 11:17 about how by faith Abraham offered Isaac (when he was tried), we see that his works was just another way of saying that Abraham was having faith. For one cannot say that Abraham by faith offering up Isaac was not justified by this kind of faith as mentioned in Hebrews 11:17. Scripture makes it clear that we are justified (in the salvific way) by faith. Romans 5:1 says, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”. The Bible does not talk about a faith that does not justify. All faith mentioned in the Bible is dealing with our justification. Seeing this is the case, then James 2:21 is talking about justification in the salvific sense. Meaning James 2:17, and James 2:24 are referring to how we do need to have works of faith as a part of our salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Moses said to stand still and see the salvation of the Lord.This salvation is of God. The typical crossing over and walking in the new way God shows is a evidence of that faith where God works in us. So again, the salvation is of the Lord and we stand still, no works to save ourselves. They had to believe and if they did have faith Christ dwells in their hearts also ( even in the OT) and then Christ would be working in then directing them and they must follow him. Yes there is a choice. When they did not follow in faith and evidenced by their actions, they were chastised and judged.

"Ex 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever."

This is similar to them simply looking unto the serpent on the pole to be healed. Then when they did believe and look in faith, they were healed a physical thing took place. In salvation we must first believe and then if we do we are baptized or immerses into Christ at the new birth. An inner action takes place. Then all the works we do in that faith where God works in us to make us perfect unto every good work will manifest in our daily lives and show forth that we are justified. You know a tree by its fruit

again this was a type so there are other aspects to discuss about types.

Also, in the Parable of the Talents, God does not say to the unprofitable servant that his problem was solely a lack of faith (whereby the evidences of faith - i.e. works will just naturally flow), but it was because of the simple reason that the servant was lazy (slothful), and wicked. That was the reason.

Matthew 25:26 says,
“His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:”

In Matthew 25:30, the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This whole parable and it’s point is to us as believers to be fruitful servants otherwise we can be cast out. Nothing is said here about how we just need to believe and that takes care of the problem of being fruitful and it takes care of the problem of being lazy and wicked. A person can know all the facts of the Bible as true, and yet if they don’t obey God, they will not make it into Kingdom. Yes, there is an element of faith involved when we do obey God. But I see laziness and the pleasure of sin in getting in the way of a believer’s obedience to God in doing good works, and in putting away sin. One can believe in the finished work of the cross until the cows come home but that is not going to help them to overcome sin and be fruitful. Abiding in Christ and the Father also involves doing what He commands of us (See again John 14:23, and John 15:10).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Firstly, I do believe that a good tree will produce good fruit. It will happen as Jesus said, no amount of our flesh can make spiritual fruit happen. And we do not crucify the flesh by the flesh. It is not just try harder in your flesh to overcome the world. But I do also believe we are fellow labourers with God, we are not robots to be forced by God to act. We must believe and follow Christ and choose to do so, or we will be in trouble and in danger. We walk in the newness of life and in the spirt and God empowers us directs us guides us fills us with love and gifts and he is the one who works in us as scripture teaches.

Once believers accept Jesus as their Savior and they are born again spiritually, and they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, they have God living in them and when they follow what God says in His Word, they work together. I believe also God the Father, and Jesus abides in a believer, as well. All three persons of the Trinity abide in a believer. God who is one lives in the hearts of believers.

Yet, you said that no amount of our own flesh (our body) can make spiritual fruit to happen. Well, if that is the case, then you cannot be a fellow laborer with God. So there is our part to do something along with God doing the good work, and it is not God forcing us on puppet strings to do what He wants.

John 14:23 has to be true in some way.

Again, John 14:23 says,
“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”

John 14:23 is a point by Jesus that if we keep His words God will make our home in us. This I believe was to show the connection between obedience and God abiding in a person. I don't believe John 14:23 is describing the normative everyday life of a believer who already walks with God. I see John 14:23 as those people who are first coming to the Lord (with God possibly moving them to obey from an outward influence of His Spirit before Jesus and the Father makes their home within them).

Once God lives in us, we are fellow laborers.
Jesus is trying to show the connection of doing His good works with how it is connected with abiding in Him and the Father.
A good tree is only going to produce good fruit if one is abiding by the rule of faith according to God’s Word.
This faith is described in Scripture as both a belief and as doing the work of faith (Which is a part of the Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy life).

Secondly, when we read that Naoah built an ark to the "saving" of his house. We must define what this saving part refers to. I don't think you would say that a person to be spiritually saved or born again must build a physical ark? So this would seem to refer to the physical salvation from the flood coming. So the issue is clouded if we add works to spiritual salvation again, in this case or any in Hebrews 11.

No. I am not saying we are to be like a Ken Ham and build an actual physical ark (See here, and here) (Note: Yes, I have seen his life sized ark, and I would recommend seeing it). Anyways, the point is that the majority of the whole chapter of Hebrews 11 shows that by faith… they did this. By faith… they did that. By faith… they did such and such. They put forth certain actions as a part of their faith. Granted, Hebrews 11 uses one clear example in the beginning how faith can be like a belief in the fact that through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God (Hebrews 11:3). Thus, believing can also be faith. This is true. But the majority of the chapter demonstrates how faith is ALSO one of action and or doing the work of faith that God commands of us. Faith is not a belief alone always. This is what Hebrews 11 demonstrates if one believes the text plainly like a child.

Romans 5:1 says, being justified by faith, we have peace with God. Romans 5:1 says, we have access by faith into this grace.

So the faith we see in Hebrews 11 (faith in action or the work of faith or the obedience to the faith) is one that must be exhibited in our own faith. This is how faith is defined according to the Bible. But most in the Protestant world hates this idea and they will of course naturally reject it because they see faith as a belief alone (with works being evidenced of that faith; When in reality the Bible describes the faith as being both a belief and also as works of faith - Hebrews 11).

But the works that justify us are Gods works on the cross and his work in us all glory is to God. yes our new man can DO all things but this is only through Christ in spirit he flesh is crucified and is only used as a means to express the love and grace of God in an outflow of faith which worketh by love.

While I agree for the most part of what you said above here, the one issue I have is that works is not always an outflow or evidence of faith in every case or a cure all vaccine to a believer being fruitful throughout their whole life. Titus 3:8, Titus 3:14, and the Parable of the Talents shows that it is not just faith that will always lead to an automatic outpouring of works or an evidence of works over one’s whole life. Yes, I believe that can happen and does happen in the beginning (Especially). We see this with the woman who could not stop kissing Jesus’ feet because she was forgiven much. But it also has to be true that God warns us to do certain things with their being consequences to our soul if we don’t do them (Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 Timothy 5:8). The point God makes in these kind of examples in Scripture are not said to be with how one needs to have more faith as the ending point of why they are not fruitful or not doing what God said (with those works not really being salvific). For example: Matthew 25:31-46 is clear that we have to help the poor in this life. If we do not do such a thing in this life, then we are in disobedience and unbelief to God. The consequences to refusing to help the poor is not good according to God. So it’s not just a belief alone that saves. Faith also involves the work of faith, too. If not, then one can be their own master and lazy and not worry about lifting a finger for God and nor do they need to worry about loving anyone with their actions (if such were the case that salvation is only in a belief alone - that is evidence by works). If works do not save, then a person does not really need to have works as evidence of their faith. If works showed how one's faith was true or salvific, then works by default would be a salvation issue because one cannot have a faith without evidence of works and be saved. This is why the Protestant understanding on works from James is a hornet's nest of confusion. They are creating a contradiction.

No ceremonies or water baptism or circumcision or any other dead works can accomplish this. Nor physically making an ark.

I don't believe in circumcision or in building an ark. We are not under these commands. But we do see the apostles water baptizing others in Jesus name and God nowhere ever rebukes them for doing so. While the verses you use to defend how Spirit baptism replaces water baptism sounds like it could be potentially true, they are not a hardcore solid case that would hold up even in a court of law. You are making inferences off those verses.

We both approach the Bible differently. I believe in the “Bible Alone + the Anointing to Understand It” (and I see the primary rule of Faith as the Bible). You believe the Bible is secondary. This to me is a foreign idea and totally antithetical to the faith. I believe we should follow what is only written and not follow something that is not clear in Scripture. I believe God abides by His Word. So when we talk about Scripture, we are talking about God's involvement with Scripture to make it come to pass in some way (For His Word will not return void).

So this is why I believe we differ on the practice of water baptism in Jesus' name.
I believe Scripture as written clearly, and you do not. You make inferences and or make an educated guess in that “water baptism in Jesus name” has ended (When in reality it is just as equally possible that such a thing may not be as you think or believe).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not taking away personal spiritual responsibility for what we do and trying to say we do nothing. We as a new born believer can do all things through Christ. he degree of our walk and work is according to our faith and our commitment to Christ

The Protestant says, works is evidence of faith.
Then the Protestant says, works are not a salvation issue.
Yet, if faith is a part of how we access God's grace, and works is evidence of our faith, then works is a salvation issue because one cannot have a dead faith without works and be saved. In short, the Protestant is contradicting themselves.

This is where we read of babes and mature believers, or those who are strong or weak in faith. But again the works are not defined as such things as water baptism for justification which is what you seem to be implying by using the works verses in James.

As I said before, I don't believe water baptism in Jesus' name is how we are initially saved.
I also said that a believer can be saved without water baptism in Jesus' name.
I believe a person dying on their deathbed can be saved by believing in the name of Jesus for salvation (John 1:12).
I believe a Christian can be saved for years not knowing about baptism and or not finding anyone who believes as he/she does to be able to be baptized by other believers. So the idea here is the right heart attitude of obedience and the desire. A believer should be seeking to be baptized because it is a part of the faith that we see the apostles had done.
You see the apostles water baptising as some kind of major blunder when Scripture does not clearly say that. So you have created your own fill in the blanks secret narrative. You are in judgment of the apostles based on scant evidence in Scripture (When it could just as equally be read a different way in that they are innocent of your claims against them).

You implied before that we are not under any any rituals. But do you not believe in keeping the ritual or ceremony of the Lord's supper?
So this shows that just because there is a ritual or ceremony in the New Testament, it does not mean that such things have ended.

consider these verses

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."(Galatians 2:16,17 KJV)

What is the works of the Law in Galatians 2:16?
Is it the laws of Moses or the Laws of Christ or both?

I believe Paul is talking about the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal given to Israel).
Paul is talking about those who were being compelled to be circumcised (Galatians 2:3), and the apostle Paul is talking about the Law of Moses that came 430 years after the promise given to Abraham (Galatians 3:16-18). Paul says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2). Circumcision was of the Old Law and not the Laws of Christ. But why would Paul bring up circumcision like this?

Because of this:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

In regards to Galatians 2:17:

Is Galatians 2:17 talking about “Initial Salvation” by God's grace through faith or is Galatians 2:17 talking about a “Continued Salvation” with a believer still being found as a sinner?

If one is still a sinner after they are saved by God's grace then they have not repented and they are going against Paul saying the following things.

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2).

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,...” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."(Matthew 7:17-20 KJV)

A good tree is the kind of tree that will not justify sin or make room for sin (Whereby evil fruit can potentially happen).
Protestants set up room in most cases to justify sin on some level. I have already demonstrated this by the Gotquestions article.
Some Protestants believe you must live holy but then they double speak and say that a believer can commit suicide and be saved, etcetera.
You are saying that a good tree will produce fruit. But as I pointed out to you before, John the baptist says that we must bring forth fruits worthy of repentance and the axe is laid to the root of the tree ready to be cut down and thrown down into the fire if we are not fruitful (See again: Luke 3:8-9). So we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word on this point or issue here and John the baptist is saying for us bring forth works that are befitting of repentance otherwise things will not go well for us.

Jesus says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).

When was the last time you heard a sermon on this above verse?