Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[Marymog]

No, YOU should read the Bible for yourself sometime and stop relying on the elders of your church, lol! Did you forget that I'M the one advocating personal Bible reading and not blindly following the elders of the church? I find it quite hilarious that you're telling me to do the exact thing YOU and every Catholic needs to do, lol!

Your men failed to teach you and you didn't know that everyone receives the Holy Spirit at water baptism! Your men did not tell you about Mark 1:10 and Acts 2:38 AND you failed to find it for yourself. Soooooo your bizarre accusation against me, the person who told you about those passages, makes ZERO sense.

 

[Marymog]

Cornelius and his family, and countless testimonies since then, show us that God does not categorically and without exception give the Holy Spirit at water baptism. And before you discredit Cornelius's experience make sure you have the scriptures that say what you're going to say about it. Thank you in advance.

And besides, I was talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit in power, not the receiving of the indwelling Holy Spirit in salvation. There is a difference. A BIG difference. Sometimes that happens at the same time a person receives the Spirit in salvation. Most of the time it does not. It usually happens later when that person purposely seeks it.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (John 3:5)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (1 Peter 3:21)

What the heck do you mean before I "discredit Cornelious's experience"? That makes no sense!

The story of Cornelius and his companions in Acts 10 is the one time in the New Testament that anyone is described as receiving the Holy Spirit prior to baptism. This is simply an exceptional case. Or to put it a different way; it was an EXEPTION and not the RULE according to Scripture. Furthermore, right after they received the Holy Spirit they were BAPTIZED!

Sooooooooooooooooooo water BAPTISM and the receiving the HOLY SPIRIT go hand in hand just like it says MULTIPLE times in Scripture. So STOP discrediting the FACT that water baptism and reciving the Holy Spirit are ALWAYS in the same event....Even in the case of Cornelious.

Once again what you have been taught by your men is not what Scripture says.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, first, I am not a Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist who believes that they can sin and still be saved. I am a Non-Denominational Bible Alone believing Christian. If I lied, I believe my soul would be abiding in spiritual death and I would need to confess of that sin to the Lord Jesus Christ to be forgiven of that sin, and then I would need to make an apology with you and seek to never lie again.

Second, this statement by this Catholic was made at ChristianForums. I expressed what I believed happened based on my memory of the event (Which to me seems like a long time ago). I tried searching for the post, but I cannot remember which Catholic user it was. As of today's date: I posted 39,861 posts at ChristianForums and took an undetermined break there due to a continued suppression of a lack of freedom of speech involving the Bible. So trying to find the post is not as easy as I hoped. But I remember to the best of my memory of what they told me and relayed that event to you.

But all I have to do to prove my point is quote a Catholic source that says a similar thing.

“That is why Catholics need Mother Church as the guardian and interpreter of the Bible. Alas, Protestants have sown much confusion in the domain of Bible translations and Bible Studies, and in our own time their errors have been renewed by the pseudo-Catholics known as modernists. With the simplicity and clarity of a Catholic Catechism, this "Catechism of the Bible" re-establishes the mind of the Catholic Church on many a vexed point. May it help many Catholics graze safely in the divine pastures of Holy Scripture.”

While this is mother church (the really higher up people), and not the priests exactly, this merely shows that you need to go to the church in order to properly understand the Bible.

Source:
* A Catechism Of The Bible

But here is another Catholic quote:

”What I am saying is that priests are not needed to interpret the Bible for us. Many of my Catholic brothers believe that only the priest can interpret the Bible for them.”

Source:
If the Christian has the Holy Spirit to guide him, why are priests needed to interpret the Bible?

Here is another Catholic quote:
“Until the twentieth Century, it was only Protestants who actively embraced Scripture study. That changed after 1943 when Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu. This not only allowed Catholics to study Scripture, it encouraged them to do so. And with Catholics studying Scripture and teaching other Catholics about what they were studying, familiarity with Scripture grew.”

Source:
Changes in Catholic Attitudes Toward Bible Readings
So yeah. The RCC hid the truth from the simple people until 1943.

But again, I don't think this change of the average Catholic being encouraged to study the Bible on their own happened overnight.

I still believe that there are Catholics who hold the view that they need their priest to understand the Bible. I know because I ran into one!

I think there was a shift of how things were in the recent past (possibly 1990's?) vs. now (the present). Catholics are more open to letting their their people read the Bible now because of the digital information age has exploded involving the internet, and the appearance of Amazon echoes, voice search on smartphones, smartwatches, etcetera.

At one point in time, if you encouraged a Catholic to read the Bible, they may decline. One young Catholic lady told a soul winner: ”If I read the Bible, I may interpret it wrong. If I have a problem, I go to my priest and follow his council and I am okay."

So any time you want to apologize for falsely accusing me of lying to you would be nice. If you want to persist down your road of delusion that is simply your own choice (of course).

May God bless you even if you may disagree.

Thank you for FINALLY doing some research.
Unfortunately, you’re STILL confused.

First of all – Catholics were not forbidden from reading or hearing the Gospel. Virtually the ENTIRE Bible is read aloud and taught in any given 3-year cycle during mass.

Secondly – whereas the Church GUIDES us in our understanding of the Scriptures – MOST of Scripture is not officially interpreted. There are MANY things that can be gleaned from a single passage and we are free ro understand it that way. There ARE those verses and passages, however, that correlate directly with doctrine.

Finally – you keep ignoring the historical fact that MOST of the world was functionally ILLITERATE beforE the 19th century. I think the reason for this is because you know that your argument will be MOOT.

The Scriptural perversions that occurred during the Protestant Revolt are the result of a few educated men foisting THEIR opinions on a largely uneducated and illiterate public.

 

[theefaith]

That certainly is taught by many. That, however, is all mere "religion." But all of it only points to that which is not seen by the world, not actually the real thing--but only that which points to the real thing.

Likewise, the Temple is not that "real" Temple of stone. For that Temple that is thought of as being "real" by many, also only pointed to Christ and the Temple of His body.

Christ and his church with the means of grace being the sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of all men!



A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27


A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, it's the Protestant's word against the Catholic's word, right?
I am sure we would need a time machine to really know.
However, I tend to trust my sources more. Why? Well, your own pope apologized for killing Protestants (See here). In addition, there is the whole long list of several different characteristics of the whore of Babylon lining up with the Catholic church (and their being drunk with the blood of the saints). For the Bible does not agree with the extra biblical practices of Catholicism, and that is one truth you cannot discount or cast aside (without altering the text).

Anyways, this is actually off topic of the OP discussion.

Please stop and respect other people's thread discussions.
The topic is asking if you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism.

Thank you and may God bless you.
Side Note:
Oh, and Friendly tip:
Please ease up on the caps lock key and bolded lettering and large font.
By such methods, it sounds like you are upset and or shouting which never seems to go over too well with persuading other people.

WHY would we need a time machine??

History is history – and either you ACCEPT it, or you REVISE it as the writers of this article did.
The reason you had such a difficult time finding this information is because it is somebody’s invention and NOT actual history.

As for the Pope apologizing for past atrocities – that is a GOOD thing.
WHEN are Protestant leaders going to apologize for the atrocities against Catholics over the centuries??
I’ve NEVER heard a SINGLE apology for the Calvinist murders of the Catholic Martyrs of Gorkum or the tens of thousands that were murdered or starved to death by Henry VIII and his bloodthirsty daughter Elizabeth I.

As to your idiotic interpretation of Revelation as it pertains to the Whore of Babylon – NO other entity fits this description more closely than apostate Jerusalem.

1. She "sits on 7 HILLS" (Rev. 17:9)
- Vatican Hill is NOT one of the 7 hills of Rome: Aventine Hill, Caelian Hill, Capitoline Hill, Esquiline Hill, Palatine Hill, Quirinal Hill, Viminal Hill
- Jerusalem DOES sit on 7 hills: Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet, Mount of Corruption, Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built

2. She is called "The Great City" (Rev. 17:18)
- Jerusalem is called the "Great City" - “where also their Lord was crucified” (Rev. 11:8).

3. She is "Drunk on the blood of God's Holy people" (Rev 17:6)
- Not ONLY did Jerusalem kill the prophets (Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34) - she persecuted the Early Church (Gal. 4:9, 2 Cor 11:23-26).

4. "Jerusalem is the "Faithful City"
- Isaiah 1:21 laments, "How the FAITHFUL CITY HAS BECOME A WHORE, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers."

FINALLY, as to your comment that this is “off topic” – YOU are the one who took this conversation off topic with your litany of LIES and historical revisionism.
You have A LOT to learn about Biblical truth as it pertains to being honest and faithful.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

you said it only an obedience?

not baptismal regeneration???

Baptismal regeneration is done by the Spirit at the moment of salvation when one is baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ! Water baptism comes after.

 

[theefaith]

Baptismal regeneration is done by the Spirit at the moment of salvation when one is baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ! Water baptism comes after.

water baptism comes after we die? Matt 24:13

 

[michaelvpardo]

Pray to God for a baptism of power of the Holy Spirit. Then you'll understand what words can not convey.

Well, you can ask for gifts at any time and those gifts are empowered by His Spirit. That really isn't a second baptism.
I believe this because I've received gifts on different occasions, but my experience isn't proof.
However, I firmly believe in an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the latter days, the latter rains as it were, and many souls saved from out of the great tribulation. I think we'll find out soon enough.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Pray to God for a baptism of power of the Holy Spirit. Then you'll understand what words can not convey.

Why? I have His Spirit, and His power when He needs to manifest it.

 

[marks]

According to Paul in Ephesians 4, there is exactly one baptism. In Romans 6, Paul specified that we are baptized into Christ.

In Ephesian 1, Paul wrote that every spiritual blessing we receive, we receive in Christ.

Much love!

 

[michaelvpardo]

1) Avoiding being water baptized, Correct?

2) I have found Two Different "Spirit Baptisms = WITH & By".
Please advise Bible verses for "in & of" - I Cannot find them.
Or are "these" as you say?:


IF "word games" stop, perchance understanding begins?

Ok then, agree, so let's explore for a moment:

IF, Under God's Mystery program of Grace for us today, Paul tells us:

"...There is ONE * Baptism..." (Eph 4:5), And Also Further Clarifies
The Immediate (Spiritual) Context (vs 3-6) with the Passage:

"For By ONE Spirit are we all Baptized Into ONE Body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free;
and have been all made to drink into One Spirit." (1Co 12:13
along With Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:12; Gal 3:27)
​

How then can I have authority to change this 'One True interpretation'? ie:

1) IF God Says there is ONLY ONE, and I add (+) water to this
God-Given Equation, wouldn't that be TWO baptismS?
(+) Violation for rule # 3 of Bible study Rules?
+
Would not "bad math" be Considered "bad works" By
The LORD Jesus Christ, At our Judgment?

2) IF God's Seven "Unities" of Eph 4:3-6 are Actually "Spiritual" As Shown,
and I change the ONE Baptism into water (in order to 'keep the math' at ONE),
how then am I "going to give an account for this sort of bad works"? ie:

a) I mutilated or destroyed God's "Seven Spiritual Unities" by
making ONE of Them physical water baptism, Correct?

b) Did I not Also negate The OPERATION Of The ONE Spirit
Of God, by such a replacement?​

c) Not sure about others, but I wish not "to give account for these
'word/math/misinterpretations of sorts' things." ("Circling the truth"?) You?
​

3) IF "Rightly Dividing God's Word Of Truth" Gives me HIS Approval,
then should I not "be ALL IN!"?

* And ONLY ONE of?: 13 Bible baptismS

GRACE, Peace, And JOY...

Water baptism doesn't save. It's an ordinance by command of the Lord Jesus Christ, and performed by the Apostles and Saints in the book of Acts. Saint Steven is a well known example of having baptised a believer, the Ethiopian eunuch trying to understand the scroll of Isaiah.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. The occasion of adult baptism (by water) is a physical identification with Christ in His death and resurrection. It's physical testimony, just as communion is. Also, it's typical for people being baptized to share a little testimony and confess Christ before being dunked. With some people this might be the only opportunity to confess Him.

"Now I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before people, the Son of Man will also confess him before the angels of God; " Luke 12:8

While I don't believe water baptism is a requirement of salvation, it is testimony and obedience to the Lord.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The story of Cornelius and his companions in Acts 10 is the one time in the New Testament that anyone is described as receiving the Holy Spirit prior to baptism. This is simply an exceptional case. Or to put it a different way; it was an EXEPTION and not the RULE according to Scripture.

Remember, I told you to post the scriptural proof for your answer. Show me where it says that was God's intention. Of course, it doesn't say that, so don't bother asking your leaders where it says that. I myself received the Spirit the moment I prayed Luke 18:13-14. The Apostle Paul (one of 'my men', as you say) refers to receiving the Spirit in salvation 'when you believed' (Ephesians 1:13). And that is by far the time when most saved people were sealed with the Spirit in salvation - when they believed, not when they were water baptized.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

water baptism and reciving the Holy Spirit are ALWAYS in the same event....Even in the case of Cornelious.

Uh, why are you saying this, lol?
They received the Holy Spirit, then they were water baptized.
I thought you understood that.

 

[Marymog]

Uh, why are you saying this, lol?
They received the Holy Spirit, then they were water baptized.
I thought you understood that.

Ummm, why are you saying this lol?

I never said they DIDN'T receive the Holy Spirit and then they were baptized.

Read slowly what I wrote: water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are ALWAYS in the same event....Even in the case of Cornelious: Received the Holy Spirit and was baptized.

 

[Marymog]

Remember, I told you to post the scriptural proof for your answer. Show me where it says that was God's intention. Of course, it doesn't say that, so don't bother asking your leaders where it says that. I myself received the Spirit the moment I prayed Luke 18:13-14. The Apostle Paul (one of 'my men', as you say) refers to receiving the Spirit in salvation 'when you believed' (Ephesians 1:13). And that is by far the time when most saved people were sealed with the Spirit in salvation - when they believed, not when they were water baptized.

Oh goodness Ferris. I assumed your men taught you all of Scripture. I shouldn't have assumed that.

When Paul wrote to the baptized Christians in Ephesus, and he said when they had heard (past tense) the word of truth and had believed (past tense) in Him they were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit! What does Scripture say one does AFTER they believe Ferris? Read 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 10, 19 and 22 etc etc Ferris. What are we instructed to do AFTER we beleive and are made disciples Ferris? Let me teach you since your men didn't teach you: Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

In summary Ephesians 1:13 is simply saying that when they started believing they received the Holy Spirit. Just because Paul didn't mention the word baptism in that passage along with belief and receiving of the Holy Spirit does not mean that they were NOT baptized after they believed. Scripture makes it VERY clear that baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit go hand in hand. The people of the Church in Ephesus BELIEVED and were BAPTIZED. If you are suggesting they ONLY believed BUT were never baptized you should give "scriptural proof for your answer". Good luck kiddo.


Bible Study Mary

 

[Ronald Nolette]

water baptism comes after we die? Matt 24:13

no. aftger we become believers.

 

[farouk]

Baptismal regeneration is done by the Spirit at the moment of salvation when one is baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ! Water baptism comes after.

@Ronald Nolette This is indeed the order of Acts 2.41..........

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Precious friends, in better words than I can say:

"

In Matthew_3:11, John the Baptist predicted that the Lord Jesus would
Baptize people “with the Holy Ghost.” Peter later identified the fulfillment
of this promise as the filling of the Spirit that took place at Pentecost
(Acts_1:4,5 cf. 2:4).

This Baptism “with” the Spirit Caused Him To Take Control of the believers,
and rendered them incapable of sinning (I John_3:9). But it is important to
notice that at Pentecost, the Lord Jesus Was The Baptizer, and He Baptized
people “with” the Spirit.

I Corinthians 12:13 speaks of a Different Baptism altogether. Here Paul
teaches that today, in the dispensation of Grace, believers are Baptized
“BY” the Spirit “into” the Body of Christ.

Here the Spirit Is The Baptizer, Baptizing us “into” Christ. That
is Different than at Pentecost, where Christ Was The Baptizer,
Baptizing people “with” the Spirit.

The results of These Baptisms Differ also. The Baptism of
I Corinthians 12:13 Places us into the Body of Christ, which
did not even exist yet at Pentecost. The Baptism at Pentecost,
on the other hand, enabled them to live without sin.

Finally, the Baptism at Pentecost was the fulfillment of the
prophecies in Joel_2:28,29 and Ezekiel_36:26,27, while the
Baptism of I Corinthians 12:13 is not found in prophecy,
for it is The Subject Of The Mystery.

Hence while being filled and controlled by the Spirit at Pentecost
was a “promise” that needed only be “received” (Acts 2:33), today
it is a goal (Eph. 5:18). All the Pentecostal saints had to do was
“wait” for it (Acts_1:4), while we must strive for it."
(R Kurth)

GRACE, Peace, And JOY...

 

[LoveofTruth]

Alan Ballou believes in what is called “Initial Salvation, and Final Salvation.” Other Christians believe this doctrine, as well (of which you can research online). I actually held to the same view on the two aspects of salvation (of which I name differently) long before I even heard this term because the Bible has led me to that truth. I have done my own studies that we are saved first INITIALLY by God's grace without works through faith (a belief alone). But after we are saved by God's grace, we need to continue in the faith and enter a secondary aspect of salvation of which the Bible describes as the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13). This is a call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14 - and the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12).

hello again.

I don't agree with that understanding or teaching. I do however believe, (as you may know) that a christian can fall away from grace and be lost forever. But as scripture shows, Christ dwells in our heart by faith. As we continue in the faith Gods grace had been working in us to will and to do. It is God who makes us perfect unto every good work through Christ and empowers us, gives us love and gifts etc. Yes we must walk in the new man in Christ and daly deny the flesh through Gods power crucifying being buried and rising in our walk in Christ daily. But this is the power of the gospel as we live in it always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in us. These works ( not ceremonial dead works of the OT or as some try today to make part of the New Covenant) are spiritual in nature and flow from a heart in faith daily. For our faith WORKETH by love. The victory that over comes the world is our faith 1 John 5. Some might say, "how does just having faith and continuing in it overcome the world? , don't we have to do something in our flesh to make it happen" No, the flesh is a vehicle of our spiritual man. But we do not walk or live in the flesh as a new creation., The rule of faith and practice is to live in Christ and the new creation. as scripture shows. So the works idea is not accurate of we think that we need to add to the grace of God and His salvation in Christ and the work of that grace in our heats. The works flow from Christ and our new creation in Him. And as the body without the spirit is dead so a believer in faith without Gods Spirit working in him is dead as well. But if we are in Christ we will have a new heart and new motives and desires and actions. We will be working in some measure all the time in Christ. If we do not continue in this faith by which we enter int the grace that works in our lives then we die and can depart from the living God through the deceitfulness of sin and an evil heart of unbelief (Hebrews 3L12 and on) , Notice there that the reason men depart from God is not because of a work in the flesh but an evil heart of UNBELIEF. No works in our flesh can save us or ceremonies or rituals. God saves us through the work of Christ n the cross who died for our sins according to the scripture and was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. That is His work of the gospel without us and for us. But as we have faith and believe the gospel, then we enter into the grace that saves us inwardly and we also participate in the gospel in a daily way, we die with Christ are buried with him and risen with him t the newness of life and as we through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body we live.

So the reality of these things according to many clear scriptures is not what this man says or others who would add our own flesh works to the salvation. No flesh shall glory in His presence. No works of the flesh are part of the gospel. The gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4 and Paul says we keep saved by believing it, because we are not trusting in our works or ceremonies etc but in God's work without us and in us at the new birth. . Dome have trouble with just continue in faith and grace idea. They need works of the flesh, but that is not what scripture teaches. Remember Christ shall dwell in your heart by faith and Jesus aid "without me, ye can do nothing{ John 15. But I can do all things through Christ which sanctifies me and dwells in me.

If we have a good tree it WILL produce good fruit. The fruit is not before the salvation or life of the tree. Abide in Christ and walk in the spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

The only two fold aspect of the gospel is the work of God for us on the cross without us, and His work in us at the new birth. This is even typified in scripture when we see Moses cross the red sea and Joshua cross the Jordan with the ark and the people into the promised land.

In Moses we see him saying, "stand still and see the salvation of the Lord" Stand still shows that we do nothing. But in Joshua crossing the river, we see that the ark went first and Joshua is a type of Christ also, and they took 12 stones and put them in the river and twelve stone out into the new land. Then Joshua sand the people defeated the enemies in the land. We see a type here of Christ coming with us int the new land spiritually speaking and defeating the enemies.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Please know that I do not agree with everything Alan Ballou teaches or says. He does not understand the Trinity, and so that is where we strongly disagree.

Now that would be a very serious heresy. I cannot work with any downtown who deny the Trinity. Is he a oneness heretic or some other version of the God head?

But when it comes to Sanctification and the faith, Alan brings up VERSES that many Christians today ignore (Which is scary).

I don't ignore any of them. They all have a proper understanding in the work of faith inwardly understood and God making us perfect from within unto every good work, through Christ. Paul says that Christ as the head works effectually in the measure of every part making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love (Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)

Alan is loving by email, but if you reject certain verses, he is not as open to discussing them because he sees it as unbelief.

all heretics I have met are the same. They think they alone have all the truth and will not allow you to question them or expose them. The trinity heresy makes him a arch heretic and his two forms of salvation is a dangerous one. If people don't understand the rule of faith as I described in the Christian forum site, and how God works in us to will and to do. Then they will misunderstand all the references to good works we do. This is a deeply spiritual thing and many do not see things spiritually they see only naturally and with bias from commentators of the past who also did not see the rule of faith or spiritual realities.

many today have a form of godliness but deny the power, we are to withdraw from them. The word power there is the same word used for the power of the Spirit poured out n Acts.

I disagreed with him a few times, and one time he was not so open to discussing it (leading into slightly harsh words). So there is a chance he will probably just cut you off in not wanting to discuss this issue. So I would see him probably cutting you off in conversation in not wanting to talk to you about this issue like we are doing.

well, Ive met many heretics and they all act the same way. They even bind up those who they control and don't allow them to talk to us either. Cult mindsets are dangerous. If we cannot freely discuss scripture and question teachings then we are bound up under a mans tradition or false doctrine and bondage he tries to bring us in.

In other words, he most definitely would not be open to you sharing your belief with his church group.

First, the church is under Christ headship , not man as the head and all can share with eachother. No one man has the power to allow or not allow any believer to share. And secondly, if I was visiting the church, (not just him) they should be careful to entertain strangers and not judge me before they first hear me. If they disagree with the message I share than so be it. I will be clear of them.

Note: I don't really desire to fellowship with his group, but I do stay plugged into his videos to get the VERSES. I do examine what he says is true and there are times I disagree with his interpretations on certain verses. As for his email: Well, I am not sure that is a good idea to contact him. I am not sure it will go well. But you can find his contact info via his website by his videos (if you are hard pressed).

For where is it written that water baptism has ended?

John baptized (past tense, which shows it ending in time) with water BUT ye shall be (future tense which shows a new thing) baptized with the Holy Ghost. John also said he must decrease and Christ increase. That would include his OT typified water baptism. But the Christian Jews were still going to the temple and sacrificing as believers and so they also were still following Johns water baptism which can be see in scripture ( Read Acts 10,11) and compare with Acts 1 about Johns water baptism ending....and in Hebrews we read of the diverse washings (which would include any washings of ceremony in Israel) and carnal ordinances (which would include any carnal ordinances) were imposed on them ( on the Jews) until ( showing an end of them) the time of reformation...and there are other inferences of t ending in Paul's words. But again I have shared many things of this and its a long study. I would start with Paul's words on the gospel and how Christ sent him not to baptize and he shows that if he were to add that and the many words that some use to justify it the cross of Christ ( which puts to death all works of the flesh) would be of no effect. He says a similar thing about circumcision at the end of Galatians I believe, and how they constrain you to be circumcised lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. And many more verses can be shown.

Where is it written that the apostles were acting in error?

Ignorance and lack of understanding is a bit different than error, but similar. A person can only act in faith, its not safe to go against your conscience and knowledge you have. So they needed more understanding. Jesus even said to them while on earth that he had many things to say and to judge of them, but they were not able to bear it at that time. So he said when the Holy Ghost had come he would guide them into all truth. We see this guiding all through Acts and especially in Paul's revelation. Which Peter admitted that in all his writings Paul spoke some things hard to be understood. This shows that Peter dd not understand many things and things Paul spoke of. But Peter was still a mighty man of faith and God used him mightily. Even Paul had to have a thorn in the flesh so as not to be puffed up with pride for the abundant revelation he had.We see in Galatians 2 Paul had to withstand Peter because he was to be blamed. The very truth of the gospel was at stake and Peter was confused by the Jew Gentile issue as many are today. Paul said he had the gospel of the uncircumcised and peter the gospel of the circumcised. There is only one gospel but this was said nevertheless.

Where is it written in Hebrews 9:10 that it is exclusively talking about baptism in the name of Jesus and not other OT washings?

diverse washings can include all washings of ceremony . Johns water baptism was still part of the OT. It can be shown clearly that Peter was still following Johns water baptism and he was reminded by the Lord of John baptized (past tense) with water but they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This he remembered when the Gentiles were beginning to come into the visible church in Acts 10. But remember this even t was many many years after Pentecost. So that means that Peter and the other believing Jews were still going to the temple and doing sacrifices and many other aspects of the law and customs. ( Acts 21)

So I see the Spirit baptism replacing water baptism topic as a fuzzy position to hold to at best.

It seems clear to me from many scriptures and rightly dividing the word of truth. Many spiritual things seem fuzzy if we rely too much on our natural understanding and other false teachers and commentaries etc. All things in Christ are known by the spirit (1 Cor 2). The baptism doctrine Hebrews 6, is a larger discussion. But, what I find in this topic that helps to clarify, is the questions we don't usually ask. Many just assume things from a surface reading of scripture. They don't ask things like," why were the many thousands of believing Jews still under the law and sacrificing animals and following the customs of the jews in Acts 15 -21 and beyond?. Or where was Peter going in Acs 2, and why was he going there and what happened in the temple? What were Peter and the other believing Jews doing over the years in the temple system under the priest and Levites? Or why did Jesus first mention in Acts about Johns water baptism passing and a new one coming. Why did Jesus speak to them of that and us the past tense for Johns water baptism? Those questions are seldom asked. Or why did God changes the understanding and order for Peter when the Gentiles came in? It wasn't what Peter said in Acts 2? it seems obvious that the Jews were still coming out of the Old Covenant and law and sacrifices and it was not God's intention to bring Gentiles under that law and later to bring them out again. We see this intention again between the lines and even in the word of Acts 15 where they said the Gentiles do not have to keep the law or be circumcised etc. But the Jews believed still that they needed to do it.In Hebrews 8 we see that the old covenant was decaying and ready to vanish and pass away. But if we look close at that text we see that it was written in the book of hebrews many years after Christ death and still the Old Covenant had not fully decayed or passed away or vanished.

Its the things that are not asked that give clues. To many simply assume things from scripture. But remember the Spirit of God wrote scripture through men. So to know the scriptures and the power of God we need to have the Spirit give understanding in all things.