Says Martin Luther. Our sins were forgiven on the cross. There is nothing left for us to do but accept the gift of grace.
Be a sinner and sin boldly
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There seems to be a lot of this type of reasoning going around! :blink:
Justifying our own sins is as bad as being obsessed with them.
Are you saying Christ's atonement is incomplete without some kind of work on our part?
Does sin make Christ's atonement more useful? We should sin to make Jesus' death have more meaning?
OK we can't just go around killing and fornicating like animals but if we constantly try not to sin and we dare not do something for fear that wer might be sinning then perhaps we are forgetting that Christ died to cancel out our sins. We're all sinners anyway becuase we sin without knowing it and I believe whislt we are forgiven these sins as long as we realised and seek forgiveness in Christ's name the but maybe we will still have to give account for them before him on the day of judgement.
I imagine that that day will be like a great trial, where we standbefore our maker with all our deepest and darkest secrets laid bare and his will open the books that will contain all our deeds and every sin will be like a crime we are tried for in a court and we will have to give account but faced with the stark truth of it we will not be able to justify ourselves because we will know truly how foolish and meaningless our original reasons were.
Here is a video I'd like to sahre with you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqiqO5BzH74 it is very sobering.
I imagine that that day will be like a great trial, where we standbefore our maker with all our deepest and darkest secrets laid bare and his will open the books that will contain all our deeds and every sin will be like a crime we are tried for in a court and we will have to give account but faced with the stark truth of it we will not be able to justify ourselves because we will know truly how foolish and meaningless our original reasons were.
Here is a video I'd like to sahre with you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqiqO5BzH74 it is very sobering.
You know it frightens me just how easy it is to sin and without even realising it. So we hardly need to go out of our way to create sins for which we can then ask forgiveness for. does not the scriptures tell us that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Even a monk in a cloistered silent order can sin so what does that say for us who live in the world? It say's that we have all sinned and need forgiveness even if we don't think we have.
As for what the vedio I posted; I have to say I found it both extremely sobering and encouraging at the same time since it shows us just how importnat Our Lady is because if it she had just died like anyone else and not taken bodily into heaven then how could she have such a place? If it weren' for her then that man would be burdning in Hell now, so we hae a lot to be thankful for that Mary isable to intervene for us. And to all those who reject the idea of Mary being able to intervene they should think aobut what the alternative wouldbe like.
As for what the vedio I posted; I have to say I found it both extremely sobering and encouraging at the same time since it shows us just how importnat Our Lady is because if it she had just died like anyone else and not taken bodily into heaven then how could she have such a place? If it weren' for her then that man would be burdning in Hell now, so we hae a lot to be thankful for that Mary isable to intervene for us. And to all those who reject the idea of Mary being able to intervene they should think aobut what the alternative wouldbe like.
FHII
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Ummm... Not having to go through a secretary and going to the boss himself?
Rom 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
That's what I thought. I thought that Jesus interceeds for us with God the father but what if he refuses? Then Mary has to interceed for us to him for him to interceed with the father.
it's like going to the king to ask for a favour. If you appear before the king's throne as a dirty and smelly peasant then he will refuse your request or even to hear it or even to see you at all but if you have a friend in the king's service then they could put in a good word for you and your request might get granted. For how must a sinner look to God and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
For centuries Mary ahs taken into her care the souls of sinners who otherwise would have been condemned because they didn't follow her son and live for him. Mary has a special place in her heart for such sinners and through her intercession they can be turned around. That man got another chance, where otherwise he would have be dammed forever, not a few thousand years in Purgatory but forever and ever becuase he had not lived for Christ. Are we nt to rejoice in his being given a second chance?
it's like going to the king to ask for a favour. If you appear before the king's throne as a dirty and smelly peasant then he will refuse your request or even to hear it or even to see you at all but if you have a friend in the king's service then they could put in a good word for you and your request might get granted. For how must a sinner look to God and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
For centuries Mary ahs taken into her care the souls of sinners who otherwise would have been condemned because they didn't follow her son and live for him. Mary has a special place in her heart for such sinners and through her intercession they can be turned around. That man got another chance, where otherwise he would have be dammed forever, not a few thousand years in Purgatory but forever and ever becuase he had not lived for Christ. Are we nt to rejoice in his being given a second chance?
So you have Mary as a mediator between us and the Mediator Jesus Christ? Wouldn't Mary get too busy with so many praying to her? So who will mediate for Mary?
Actually the idea of Mary has replaced the Holy Spirit in truth. It is the Holy Spirit that intercedes for those who are already in HIS presence. We need not create a feudal hierarchy to explain away a life actually lived in Christ.
FHII
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I happen to know for a fact that Mary doesn't like dirty and smelly peasants either... So what if Mary doesn't intercede for us? Can we go and ask Elizabeth? Or maybe Mary Magaline or Martha.... They seemed pretty tight with Jesus too....
If we're really smelly the only one will be St Ginafore and he was a greyhound.
All joking aide though, the smelly peasant thing was a metaphor but with all our sins on us we must look pretty disgusting in the sight of God, which is why so many pray directly to the father and there prayers remain un answered,e.g. Jews and Muslims who have no reall access to God.
In practical terms we are to pray to the father but through the son. I was just using a metaphor of a medieval hierarchy to explain the importance of the communion of saints.
The whole thing about looking to saints isn't that they get in the way of God since Jesus said that no-one comes to the Father except through him, so you can't come to the father through Mary or any other saint but those saints like mary, Joseph, Jams, John, Paul etc are easy to relate to because they were ordinary human beings, made holy through God's grace given freely, not by anything they did to earn it.
I'm not saying that we all need to pray Ave Maria's all the time to appease Mary so that she will help us but be aware that when Jesus Christ sits in judgement he willnot be the gentle Jesus meak and mild that we all learned about in Sunday school but the rightouse judge of men, stern hard and full of glory and majesty like the description given in Revelations.
We are told that on the last day he will be with his saints and angels so it stands to reason that his mother will be there and being his mother she wil have high honour amonst the saints, so it makes sense that as mother of mercies she will feel moved to come to the aid of those sinners who through rightious judgement are to be condemned. Pleae udnerstand that Mary does not condend with the will of God and only acts according to her station as the mother of Christ, not as part of the Godhead.
Thank you
All joking aide though, the smelly peasant thing was a metaphor but with all our sins on us we must look pretty disgusting in the sight of God, which is why so many pray directly to the father and there prayers remain un answered,e.g. Jews and Muslims who have no reall access to God.
In practical terms we are to pray to the father but through the son. I was just using a metaphor of a medieval hierarchy to explain the importance of the communion of saints.
The whole thing about looking to saints isn't that they get in the way of God since Jesus said that no-one comes to the Father except through him, so you can't come to the father through Mary or any other saint but those saints like mary, Joseph, Jams, John, Paul etc are easy to relate to because they were ordinary human beings, made holy through God's grace given freely, not by anything they did to earn it.
I'm not saying that we all need to pray Ave Maria's all the time to appease Mary so that she will help us but be aware that when Jesus Christ sits in judgement he willnot be the gentle Jesus meak and mild that we all learned about in Sunday school but the rightouse judge of men, stern hard and full of glory and majesty like the description given in Revelations.
We are told that on the last day he will be with his saints and angels so it stands to reason that his mother will be there and being his mother she wil have high honour amonst the saints, so it makes sense that as mother of mercies she will feel moved to come to the aid of those sinners who through rightious judgement are to be condemned. Pleae udnerstand that Mary does not condend with the will of God and only acts according to her station as the mother of Christ, not as part of the Godhead.
Thank you
What kind of doctrine is this? If Jesus rejects someone, the lady Mary cannot help him.
Why has this discussion turned into a discussion about Mary? Mary is a sister like any other sister. She is not the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus of Nazareth, The rest is superstition and plain heresy.
Mary is the mother of Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews and he is God because he is God the Son, the second person of the Trinity.
No I'm not a heretic, what I'm saying is Catholic doctrine and I'm an Anglo-Catholic with the same doctinres and traditions as my Papist brothers and sisters (except fo teh the Primacy of Peter of course). I'm not a roman Catholic because the Pope to me is a foreign prince.
Episkopos
Are you of the Greek Orthodox tradition?
No I'm not a heretic, what I'm saying is Catholic doctrine and I'm an Anglo-Catholic with the same doctinres and traditions as my Papist brothers and sisters (except fo teh the Primacy of Peter of course). I'm not a roman Catholic because the Pope to me is a foreign prince.
Episkopos
Are you of the Greek Orthodox tradition?
I don't hold to what is presented as any tradition. I believe they have all been corrupted. We need to look to the Spirit and the word and to measure our traditions through the biblical text. We cannot ask people to just trust men and what they have come up with. We are to test ALL things and hold fast what is good.
The bible says...cursed is he that trusts in man, but blessed is he that trusts in the Lord.
No church can save you. We need to seek the Lord and know Him.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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