1 John 3:9 - Is it cannot "practice" sin, or cannot "commit" sin?

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, it is in our nature for us to sin and God doesn't get rid of that nature in its entirety until we dwell with Him eternally.

I believe “I die daily” can become “I am now crucified.” I do not base that on what I see with me or on what I see all around me - I would never believe or hope for it if I based it on what I see.
I don’t see it so much as I die daily, over and over again, but I see it more like…I’m not totally and thoroughly dead yet but AM in the process of dying and decreasing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe “I die daily” can become “I am now crucified.” I do not base that on what I see with me or on what I see all around me - I would never believe or hope for it if I based it on what I see.
I don’t see it so much as I die daily, over and over again, but it see it more like…I’m not totally and thoroughly dead yet but AM in the process of dying and decreasing.

Well said.

Christians can overcome sin in this life (Galatians 5:24), and they should be in a purification process in meeting that goal (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Most Christians today don’t agree with this. They mix in the idea that they must always sin (on occasion) as per a wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24. Just ask them and they will tell you that is indeed their belief. Sure, they may not justify the idea that they can be a practicing axe murderer and be saved, but when push comes to shove, they will tell you that their salvation is not in jeopardy when they do occasional sins. So if they slip up into looking at others in lust, or they lie, or they have a time of unforgiveness, they believe they are still saved and or they don’t believe they are in danger of hellfire. They believe they are saved solely by believing on the finished work of the cross or by believing in Jesus for salvation and nothing else. So then their life will reflect that type of belief. But God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Y'know, I think it may take more faith to keep trusting God to love you when you know you're screwed-up and you're not getting any better and your prayers aren't getting answered.

That’s the way it worked for me. My problem wasn’t drugs. My problem was constantly murdering. And I just didn’t focus on if things I was doing on the outside was or was not sin. I focused on the inside of my cup. I just somehow knew it was the correct way to go that if the inside is clean, the outside just will be as well but that to go at it the opposite way was to approach it wrongly.

Im trying to think what I would say to someone with a drug addiction to help them. I don’t know. But I know you have a heart for them and know God will give you the way. I think if it were me, I would…maybe…study the different approaches that programs use and see which ones have the greatest success rates and study their models for what it is they do differently to achieve higher success rates. I am guessing the ones that don’t just focus on the outside of the cup would be more successful. After all, some men’s sins are seen by others and some men’s sins are hidden, but God will bring all of them to light In the end. Yeah, I would look at the models and see if some of them…could have principles of the gospel, even if it’s unbeknownst to those who wrote the model, and I would keep those parts and remove the parts that were more worldly. I would write my own model! And…do you know how some have written fiction stories that are loved the world over and yet some don’t even know they have the gospel and Jesus hidden there in them? They just know they like them. I would weave some of that into my model too. Do people need to know a bit of wisdom came from God to see that it is wise?
Ill stop but boy oh boy my mind is racing! I wonder if you could make a model where He was hidden in it at first and then later let it be known that it’s all the wisdom of Jesus thats been guiding them through the program…i don’t know, maybe you won’t understand what I’m saying.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am very, very desirous to have this good conversation @dhh712, but it will be necessary to not be distracted by some of the posts and get sidetracked. Some are not ready yet to see these things, but I’ve seen by what you write that you are ready to begin bearing them. Not that I fully understand, but I do know a little. And I think it will help you greatly just as it has helped me.

I think you are right on, sis.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for some comic relief. I love when a poll gives only 2 responses as though there were only 2 possible answers. Sometimes people try to put you in a box so that they can control whether or not you can get out, but if Christ sets you free, you are free indeed.

What could be a 3rd choice?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well said.

Christians can overcome sin in this life (Galatians 5:24), and they should be in a purification process in meeting that goal (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Well they ARE in a purification process, as with Esther before she was allowed to go into the kings presence. Learning righteousness IS that purification process. Being in the desert of the testing of our trust IS that purification process.He’s changing the way we think throughout it, and humbling us and…yeah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That’s the way it worked for me. My problem wasn’t drugs. My problem was constantly murdering. And I just didn’t focus on if things I was doing on the outside was or was not sin. I focused on the inside of my cup. I just somehow knew it was the correct way to go that if the inside is clean, the outside just will be as well but that to go at it the opposite way was to approach it wrongly.

Im trying to think what I would say to someone with a drug addiction to help them. I don’t know. But I know you have a heart for them and know God will give you the way. I think if it were me, I would…maybe…study the different approaches that programs use and see which ones have the greatest success rates and study their models for what it is they do differently to achieve higher success rates. I am guessing the ones that don’t just focus on the outside of the cup would be more successful. After all, some men’s sins are seen by others and some men’s sins are hidden, but God will bring all of them to light In the end. Yeah, I would look at the models and see if some of them…could have principles of the gospel, even if it’s unbeknownst to those who wrote the model, and I would keep those parts and remove the parts that were more worldly. I would write my own model! And…do you know how some have written fiction stories that are loved the world over and yet some don’t even know they have the gospel and Jesus hidden there in them? They just know they like them. I would weave some of that into my model too. Do people need to know a bit of wisdom came from God to see that it is wise?
Ill stop but boy oh boy my mind is racing! I wonder if you could make a model where He was hidden in it at first and then later let it be known that it’s all the wisdom of Jesus thats been guiding them through the program…i don’t know, maybe you won’t understand what I’m saying.

We need to put the Word of God on the inside of us to overcome sin in this life. King David basically said he hid God’s Word in his heart so that he may not sin against God (Psalms 119:11). If we are not continually renewing our minds with the truth of God’s Word and believing what it says plainly, there is no hope that they can ever overcome by God’s power. God operates by His Holy Word. His Word needs to be living on the inside of us. It needs to be a part of us. Believers can speak against the Word and not believe it. If a Christian does not believe a certain verse in the Bible, the devil will come and take that word away that was in their heart. It’s why many here don’t accept the verses I have shown to them. It’s like the verses I have shown them don’t even exist. Why? Those verses are not living on the inside of their hearts.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well they ARE in a purification process, as with Esther before she was allowed to go into the kings presence. Learning righteousness IS that purification process. Being in the desert of the testing of our trust IS that purification process.He’s changing the way we think throughout it, and humbling us and…yeah.

So a believer can justify occasional sin (not habitual sin) via by misinterpreting 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24?
A believer can think they don’t jeopardize their salvation when they sin as Jesus taught in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37?
How can such ones be in a purification process? One needs to first believe God’s Word before they can obey It.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What could be a 3rd choice?

I don’t think there is a third choice. The first one given, cannot practice sin, is learning and practicing righteousness. Sometimes we hit the mark, sometimes we miss it. We are led by the Spirit in this.

The second one, cannot sin, is to be walking in the Spirit rather than just led by the Spirit. It is to be taken into His own holiness.

So the first choice deals with righteousness. The second one concerns holiness.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So a believer can justify occasional sin

Accepting how you are and how poor and weak you are and admitting the truth is not justifying sin. It’s just walking in the truth…

Two sinners prayed. One saw and admitted the truth about himself. God said that man had done the right thing.

God said one of the two sinners did what was right. The man walked away with God justifying him, which is to say God said he did what was right.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How can such ones be in a purification process?

Are you asking how one can be in a purification process while not being pure?
That’s like asking, how can I be cleaning a plate and yet while I’m washing it , it is not yet clean?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Accepting how you are and how poor and weak you are and admitting the truth is not justifying sin. It’s just walking in the truth…

Two sinners prayed. One saw and admitted the truth about himself. God said that man had done the right thing.

God said one of the two sinners did what was right. The man walked away with God justifying him, which is to say God said he did what was right.

I am not against the idea that believers can struggle with sin on occasion.
But a true believer will confess and forsake sin and they will battle against it and realize that such a sin can destroy their souls.

What I am against is the false belief that says we MUST always sin this side of Heaven (Which is a justification of sin and or evil).
Even justifying one sin is wrong in the sight of God. Just look at what happened with Adam and Eve. It only took one sin to separate them from God and not many sins (or habitual sin). There are believers who hold to the view that they can abide in a smaller amount of sin (occasional sin) and still be saved while they do those individual sins (done on occasion and not as a way of life). So when they look at a woman in lust on occasion, they are saved. When they hate their brother on rare occasion, they are saved. When they cuss up a storm on rare occasion, they are saved. Do you believe this? Do you believe you can do these sins on rare occasion and still be saved while you do them? Do you believe your salvation is never in jeopardy by sin?

Luke 18:9-14 is talking about a man (The tax collector) who was coming to the faith for the first time or who fell into sin and is trying to return back to the LORD and walk back in His good ways. He is admitting his past life of being a sinner (in the form of a present tense expression), and he is not saying he will continue to keep sinning. Jesus said to two people to, “Sin no more.” (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

Again, you can believe that you can obey God perfectly (and that’s good), but if you believe that one can sin and still be saved like the vast majority of Christianity out there, then it’s never going to really work (If you don’t believe Jesus’ words on his warnings against how sin can destroy our souls or if you believe 1 John 1:8 is a banner flag or an excuse for Christians to abide in a smaller amount of sin and it’s okay with God).

Side Note:

In regards to Luke 18:9-14, and Romans 7:14-24:

It’s not uncommon for a person to relate a past experience by speaking in the present tense. I can tell you about a thing that happened in my past and yet speak to you about the event in the present tense. People do it all the time today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you asking how one can be in a purification process while not being pure?
That’s like asking, how can I be cleaning a plate and yet while I’m washing it , it is not yet clean?

I am saying THEY who justify smaller amounts of sin (thinking they can sin and still be saved) are not in a purification process.
For example: Many Christians today don’t believe suicide is a sin (Which runs contrary to Scripture). It’s an individual sin in their view and it’s not practing sin, so this sin gets a pass (for them to justify this sin with the thinking they are saved).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Ananias and Sapphira are a great example of how sin can destroy our souls in the faith.
When they lied to the Spirit, they each died. When that happened a great fear came upon the whole church.
Why would the church be in fear If they were saved? Why would the church fear if they were fake believers?
The only reason fear makes sense is if they could fall into a similar condemnation by another related sin that could upset the LORD.
If you don’t believe me, check the story for yourself in the King James Bible.

But Christians today believe they can sin and still be saved. Some believe you can live like the devil, and be saved, and others believe you can do sin on occasion and be saved while you do that sin. Both are justifications of sin and evil. But God cannot agree with your sin. Sure, God can forgive you past life of sin. But He cannot agree with you remaining in your sins.

The Ninevites were about to be destroyed by God’s wrath. What was the one major thing that changed the scenario?
They forsaken their evil ways.
God then turned back in bringing wrath or judgment upon them.
So we must also do the same or we will face God’s wrath and or judgment.
This includes me, your neighbor, and you, and everyone else on the planet.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Don’t be deceived. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Bible says, he that does righteousness is righteous.
The Bible also says, he that commits sin is of the devil.

BELIEVE.

BELIEVE… God’s Word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Think. How many Christians today are preaching STRIVE TO ENTER THE STRAIGHT GATE in Luke 13:24?

How many Christians are being taught that they must fight the good fight of faith and laying hold on eternal life? (See: 1 Timothy 6:12).

 

[GodsGrace]

I don’t think there is a third choice. The first one given, cannot practice sin, is learning and practicing righteousness. Sometimes we hit the mark, sometimes we miss it. We are led by the Spirit in this.

The second one, cannot sin, is to be walking in the Spirit rather than just led by the Spirit. It is to be taken into His own holiness.

So the first choice deals with righteousness. The second one concerns holiness.

I don't think there can be a 3rd choice either...the other member seems to think so.
(which is why I asked).

Do you believe it's possible for a person to never sin?
I've been coming across this idea lately - not too much, but some feel they never sin.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am not against the idea that believers can struggle with sin on occasion.
But a true believer will confess and forsake sin and they will battle against it and realize that such a sin can destroy their souls.

There’s a lot to this. I don’t know everything but I know some of it.

But let me start by using the example of a newborn baby, since God made everything to show His glory, wisdom and understanding. Therefore, even a newborn baby shows us heavenly things.

Its as if you’ve said, I am not against the idea that a newly born baby can soil himself occasionally. A newborn baby WILL soil himself and it will DEFINITELY be more than occasionally! The parent will continually wash the baby every time he soils himself until the baby is old enough to begin to be trained to stop soiling himself. The parent eagerly desires the time that the baby will be able to bear that training but knows it is not yet ready to bear it.

When Jesus washed their feet, it was along those lines. He washed the part of them that got dirty after He washed them with His word. Not their whole body, just as a parent washes and cleans the bum but not the whole baby every single time.

You are trying to…not give God any time with a baby He birthed. He grows our trust. We do not pop out newly born without needing Him to grow our trust and He has many things to tell us but has to wait until we are ready to bear them.

If you are not helping to grow someone’s trust so they will be able to bear more (how can I tell you about heavenly things when you won’t believe me about earthly things?) I question if you are even helping them at all. To edify means to help build up someone’s trust. That is what we are to do for each other. And every time we do that, we are washing their feet.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't think there can be a 3rd choice either...the other member seems to think so.
(which is why I asked).

Do you believe it's possible for a person to never sin?
I've been coming across this idea lately - not too much, but some feel they never sin.

Ah…there’s a lot to this. I can talk about what I know of it.

About a year and a half ago, God calmed my passions. It was such a drastic thing I just walked around puzzled. Not distressed, just in some wonderment. Someone would do or say something very nasty and mean to me and there was not that quick blush of anger that always rises up inside me, the quickening of my pulse, the tremendous effort to try not murder them in my heart and with my tongue. I would just stand there in amazement as to why I was not angry even though they’d been horribly awful to me. There were other things too, like knowing I was hungry but not being able to stir up myself as to what I wanted to eat. My passions just weren’t helping me. I just wanted some food, not a certain kind of food. They appeared to be gone. Passions just gone. It’s great relief and peace and calmness.

At some point, I said, oh my gosh, am I…crucified finally…?? Is that what this is? I began to think it was, but came to see it was this: my soul is like a weaned child within me. My passions weren’t completely gone, they were put under my feet, in subjection to the Spirit in me. My passions no longer ruled over me mercilessly. They were in subjection. I was weaned from my flesh/passions.

God had dealt with my flesh so it couldn’t be stirred up by someone else’s flesh any longer.

But there are deeper seated imperfections, not of the flesh but more of my spirit and I’m grateful He let me see that or I might have begun saying things I shouldn’t have and caused harm to someone else, or even just great frustration to them and got puffed up and lost what He had let me gain.

I think I could have become like those who go around saying they no longer sin and are holy but He didn’t let that happen to me.

So all that chatter is to say - they say they don’t sin because they are not yet aware of the more deep seated imperfections of spirit they still have, and the difference between them and the former is like spot removal of a recent stain versus scouring to remove a deeper, long-standing stain.
One is having come through the dark night of the soul and the other is beginning the dark night of the Spirit. But John of the Cross says not all are called to the second night and another old saint said not all are called to as much love while on earth. I don’t know if I fully believe that though. I think being weaned is preparation to help for a more strenuous purging, but I’m not sure.

But yes, I do believe it is possible to get to no sinning and I think it’s called walking in the Spirit versus just being led by the Spirit in the desert of the testing of our trust. Being in the desert versus entering the promised land. I don’t know anything about it by experience. Not yet. And maybe those men are right and I may not ever walk in the Spirit. God will either take me there and let me enter or He won’t. Being weaned brings a great calmness about it all. God will do what He wills and it will be whatever is best for me.

I just realized I didn’t add in all the verses that show these things. I can do that later. Theres a lot of them.

 

[dhh712]

What I hear in what you’ve said is that we can be pretty holy or partway holy or more holy than another man, but it doesn’t make sense to me

It was the sanctification process that I was talking about, some people are more sanctified in this life than others. For being holy, yes either you are or you aren't.