Understanding "THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED" passage.

[rwb]

That certainly accounts for part but consider that Paul also said that "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." Meaning that those who sleep included even those before the gospel went out, who began "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" even since Adam, as those are the terms.

So then, yes, Paul's word to the Thessalonians would certainly have meant what you said. But with all that he said combined and the rest of the scriptures, all are included even of all times.

Paul is saying those who are still physically alive when the Lord comes again will not be physically resurrected and bodily changed (made immortal & incorruptible) before those who have already physically died in Christ. Those who have died (sleep) in Christ, before His cross and resurrection are spirits as living souls that return with Christ. Those of faith who died before the first advent of Christ ascended to heaven with Christ after His resurrection. That's why Paul can say "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Because Christ has given us assurance that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. And even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are counted with those alive in heaven, being of the resurrection through Christ, they are as the angels of God in heaven, spirit beings.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Matthew 22:30-32 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

In 1Cor 15 Paul takes great pains to show believers are not only physically resurrected and changed when the last trumpet sounds, but we shall also be raised to heaven a spiritual body when our physical body is dead. Proving again "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So yes, all are included in Christ both spiritually and physically. Because in life we have part in the first resurrection, in death every believer ascends to heaven a spiritual body. Then when the last trumpet sounds every believer will be physically resurrected with immortal and incorruptible body of flesh, with our eternal spirit to inherit the new earth with Christ forever.

 

[rwb]

Well, I can agree with the part about those from Adam to the 2nd Coming will be raised up in the "1st Resurrection." I know there are those who limit the "1st Resurrection" only to the martyrs under Antichrist.

Those who died in faith before Christ's cross and resurrection had part in the first resurrection when Christ rescued them from death and took them with Him when He ascended to heaven. They went as spiritual body with Christ to heaven, because the first resurrection is spiritual, not physical. Since Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection, all who die in Him go to heaven a spiritual body, as a living soul. The physical resurrection will be when the last trumpet sounds that time shall be no more. Then as eternal spiritual body, believers in heaven will return with Christ. The physical body will then be resurrected immortal and incorruptible and with our eternal spirit we shall be fit to live with Christ on the new earth forever.

The Old Covenant faithful could not ascend to heaven until Christ came and defeated Satan, sin and death. Refer to reply #21

 

[ScottA]

Not at all. I was begging, perhaps inferentially, for more info. "A little too obscure for me.... I'm Postrib--that's about all I can say to that."


Well, I can agree with the part about those from Adam to the 2nd Coming will be raised up in the "1st Resurrection." I know there are those who limit the "1st Resurrection" only to the martyrs under Antichrist.

I understand that, but just think that they're failing to read between the lines. The emphasis is on those who overcome Antichrist because it is an encouragement to believers in all ages to stand up, while they are alive, against the forces of the enemy.

I don't see how this can be extended into the future, though? I would think the "2nd Resurrection" will apply to those?

There is but One Christ who has resurrected but One time, including all who are His (both the living and the dead) with Him. Meaning, the accounts of the first and the second revelations were merely accounts regarding those before and after Him: the dead before-the-fact, and the living retroactive.

So, just as those who preceded us and the coming of salvation who died in their sins each came "in Christ", "but each one in his own order" since Adam, so too those after also come as Paul indicated "but each one in his own order" until the end of times. Therefore, by the One resurrection of Christ, we know that time is the illusion it has been proven to be, just as it is confirmed in the scriptures which say that Christ was also "slain before the world began", that is--before time was even created.

So then, as it is written that we who were made of the same elements as all the known earth and heavens, were but an "image" of Him who is not so captive in this illusion for a time before passing away--all things are likewise only these many images cast through the Light of Christ who is the Beginning and the End of it all, as through a prism...making it all a revelation of Him to all who are included ("every eye shall see").

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is but One Christ who has resurrected but One time, including all who are His (both the living and the dead) with Him. Meaning, the accounts of the first and the second revelations were merely accounts regarding those before and after Him: the dead before-the-fact, and the living retroactive.

So, just as those who preceded us and the coming of salvation who died in their sins each came "in Christ", "but each one in his own order" since Adam, so too those after also come as Paul indicated "but each one in his own order" until the end of times. Therefore, by the One resurrection of Christ, we know that time is the illusion it has been proven to be, just as it is confirmed in the scriptures which say that Christ was also "slain before the world began", that is--before time was even created.

So then, as it is written that we who were made of the same elements as all the known earth and heavens, were but an "image" of Him who is not so captive in this illusion for a time before passing away--all things are likewise only these many images cast through the Light of Christ who is the Beginning and the End of it all, as through a prism...making it all a revelation of Him to all who are included ("every eye shall see").

With all due respect, I think you're confusing the work that Christ did *legally* with the work that has yet to be done, namely raising up believers at the 2nd Coming and even later. The fact that Christ provided the substance by which we all in all time survive does not mean there isn't a program in time laid out.

So I wouldn't get so confusing about what he provided for in terms of his own eternal substance and the way that is distributed to us in time. Just my take, brother.

 

[ScottA]

Paul is saying those who are still physically alive when the Lord comes again will not be physically resurrected and bodily changed (made immortal & incorruptible) before those who have already physically died in Christ. Those who have died (sleep) in Christ, before His cross and resurrection are spirits as living souls that return with Christ. Those of faith who died before the first advent of Christ ascended to heaven with Christ after His resurrection. That's why Paul can say "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Because Christ has given us assurance that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. And even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are counted with those alive in heaven, being of the resurrection through Christ, they are as the angels of God in heaven, spirit beings.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Matthew 22:30-32 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

In 1Cor 15 Paul takes great pains to show believers are not only physically resurrected and changed when the last trumpet sounds, but we shall also be raised to heaven a spiritual body when our physical body is dead. Proving again "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So yes, all are included in Christ both spiritually and physically. Because in life we have part in the first resurrection, in death every believer ascends to heaven a spiritual body. Then when the last trumpet sounds every believer will be physically resurrected with immortal and incorruptible body of flesh, with our eternal spirit to inherit the new earth with Christ forever.

What is missing in that explanation, is that there is only One "then" regarding the One crucifixion and resurrection of Christ in whom all are included for salvation...a fact that indeed requires "the renewing of your mind" to even begin to comprehend it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Those who died in faith before Christ's cross and resurrection had part in the first resurrection when Christ rescued them from death and took them with Him when He ascended to heaven. They went as spiritual body with Christ to heaven, because the first resurrection is spiritual, not physical. Since Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection, all who die in Him go to heaven a spiritual body, as a living soul. The physical resurrection will be when the last trumpet sounds that time shall be no more. Then as eternal spiritual body, believers in heaven will return with Christ. The physical body will then be resurrected immortal and incorruptible and with our eternal spirit we shall be fit to live with Christ on the new earth forever.

The Old Covenant faithful could not ascend to heaven until Christ came and defeated Satan, sin and death. Refer to reply #21

I really don't think Paul was referring to the saints in heaven with Christ right now when he spoke of our having a "spiritual body?" To me, Paul is referring to our resurrection bodies when he speaks of the "spiritual body."

Even though it will certainly be a physical body if indeed we are "resurrected," it still is, without contradiction, referred to as a "spirit body," because it will be immortal, and not subject to mortality. When we die and currently enter into the presence of the Lord, we are there in spirit, but not in a "spirit body," because that refers to the immortal body that we will put in when Christ comes again.

Paul is utilizing *legal language* when he speaks of our rising with Christ along with him when he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. We did not physically or even in "spirit bodies" rise with Christ when he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

Rather, what we did was partake of the *benefit* of his resurrection when he rose again, so that one day we also will rise from the dead. We did not literally ascend with Christ into heaven, but we obtained with him an inheritance kept in heaven by him for us. When we die and go to be with him in heaven we must wait to receive our "spirit bodies," or bodies that can no longer die.

 

[rwb]

What is missing in that explanation, is that there is only One "then" regarding the One crucifixion and resurrection of Christ in whom all are included for salvation...a fact that indeed requires "the renewing of your mind" to even begin to comprehend it.

All people without distinction (both Jew & Gentile) hear the Gospel of salvation through Christ, but only those who believe are eternally saved.

 

[ScottA]

With all due respect, I think you're confusing the work that Christ did *legally* with the work that has yet to be done, namely raising up believers at the 2nd Coming and even later. The fact that Christ provided the substance by which we all in all time survive does not mean there isn't a program in time laid out.

So I wouldn't get so confusing about what he provided for in terms of his own eternal substance and the way that is distributed to us in time. Just my take, brother.

You are not getting the fact that time is an illusion. There is no "work that has yet to be done", only the revelation of the One event that included it all to those who have yet to experience the illusion of time.

Is Christ's crucifixion and resurrection "yet to be done?" Were all we who are His not included as the scriptures say, saying "were" in past tense? Is it all repeated for those who it "has yet to be done" "but each one in his own order?"

I have explained all of this.

 

[rwb]

I really don't think Paul was referring to the saints in heaven with Christ right now when he spoke of our having a "spiritual body?" To me, Paul is referring to our resurrection bodies when he speaks of the "spiritual body."

Even though it will certainly be a physical body if indeed we are "resurrected," it still is, without contradiction, referred to as a "spirit body," because it will be immortal, and not subject to mortality. When we die and currently enter into the presence of the Lord, we are there in spirit, but not in a "spirit body," because that refers to the immortal body that we will put in when Christ comes again.

Paul is utilizing *legal language* when he speaks of our rising with Christ along with him when he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. We did not physically or even in "spirit bodies" rise with Christ when he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

Rather, what we did was partake of the *benefit* of his resurrection when he rose again, so that one day we also will rise from the dead. We did not literally ascend with Christ into heaven, but we obtained with him an inheritance kept in heaven by him for us. When we die and go to be with him in heaven we must wait to receive our "spirit bodies," or bodies that can no longer die.

If Paul meant the resurrection of our body, why would he say "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"? The two are not the same or Paul would not have said, "that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." Again, there is the natural body in the image of the first Adam, and there is the spiritual body that shall be in the image of Lord from heaven when our natural body of flesh and blood dies. Before we are in Christ, we are natural man. Once we are born from above through His Spirit in us, our spirit has been transformed from death to life forever.

The spirit of the man in Christ is eternal, through His Spirit in us. To be an eternal spirit means our spirit already possesses eternal life. This is why Christ promises that "whosoever believes in Him shall NEVER die." Because our spirit with the Spirit of Christ is eternal. Therefore, it is NOT our spirit body that must be resurrected from death to immortal and incorruptible physical body. It is only our physical body of flesh and blood that shall be resurrected immortal and incorruptible if we are in Christ. Because it is our body of flesh and blood that is under the curse and destined to die. So, our physical body must be made immortal and incorruptible, and with our eternal spirit, once more as we were at creation and then we will be "very good" and ready to live with Christ on the new earth forever.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If Paul meant the resurrection of our body, why would he say "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"? The two are not the same or Paul would not have said, "that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." Again, there is the natural body in the image of the first Adam, and there is the spiritual body that shall be in the image of Lord from heaven when our natural body of flesh and blood dies. Before we are in Christ, we are natural man. Once we are born from above through His Spirit in us, our spirit has been transformed from death to life forever.

The spirit of the man in Christ is eternal, through His Spirit in us. To be an eternal spirit means our spirit already possesses eternal life. This is why Christ promises that "whosoever believes in Him shall NEVER die." Because our spirit with the Spirit of Christ is eternal. Therefore, it is NOT our spirit body that must be resurrected from death to immortal and incorruptible physical body. It is only our physical body of flesh and blood that shall be resurrected immortal and incorruptible if we are in Christ. Because it is our body of flesh and blood that is under the curse and destined to die. So, our physical body must be made immortal and incorruptible, and with our eternal spirit, once more as we were at creation and then we will be "very good" and ready to live with Christ on the new earth forever.

Really, these are good questions--I just disagree with you. The answer lies with Paul's intention as well as with the meaning of the language he uses. I'm not up enough on the language part--sorry! But I can give you how I look at it regardless, just for your consideration. I view it from the pov of my systematic theology. But the language itself can confirm or deny.

I think Paul phrases things as "natural" and "spiritual" not to distinguish between "physical" and "spiritual." The "nature" Paul refers to likely has to do with our current mortal bodies, which can die. Our future "spirit bodies" will be physical, but will not be able to die.

When Paul refers to a "spirit body," I think he is talking about the effect Christ's Spirit has on us in the resurrection such that we become immortal and sinless. Our current "natural body" may indeed receive Eternal Life, but nevertheless remains subject to the Sin Nature and to Death.

We are not recipients of Eternal Life because our spirit is eternal. Both believer and unbeliever are eternal spirits but only believers have Eternal Life.

So "Eternal Life" is not the equivalent of "eternal" with respect to "eternal existence." Eternal Life refers specifically to our obtaining the immortal, sinless life of Christ with all of his virtues.

Eternal Life is a quality of life that merits living in the presence of God forever in a state of blessedness. That is why it is called "Eternal Life"--not because of eternal existence, but rather, because of eternal dwelling with the Lord in a blessed condition.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are not getting the fact that time is an illusion. There is no "work that has yet to be done", only the revelation of the One event that included it all to those who have yet to experience the illusion of time.

Is Christ's crucifixion and resurrection "yet to be done?" Were all we who are His not included as the scriptures say, saying "were" in past tense? Is it all repeated for those who it "has yet to be done" "but each one in his own order?"

I have explained all of this.

And I have explained my own view. Those who try to speak in mystical terms of eternal things understood only by God are wasting everybody's time. We were created in time to understand things in time. When the Bible speaks of our benefiting from Christ's life and work, it is speaking of a legal function allowing us to participate in his virtues now, while holding onto the promise of Eternal Life when we receive our immortal bodies in the future. Don't think that because you have explained your own view that the matter is settled. We each have our own view of things.

 

[ScottA]

And I have explained my own view. Those who try to speak in mystical terms of eternal things understood only by God are wasting everybody's time. We were created in time to understand things in time. When the Bible speaks of our benefiting from Christ's life and work, it is speaking of a legal function allowing us to participate in his virtues now, while holding onto the promise of Eternal Life when we receive our immortal bodies in the future. Don't think that because you have explained your own view that the matter is settled. We each have our own view of things.

If you believe (as you have as much stated) that those whom God sends "are wasting everybody's time" because they don't know what God knows and has revealed to them, also to be given to those they are sent to---that is the measure by which you shall also (not) receive.

Thus, your "own view."

So be it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you believe (as you have as much stated) that those whom God sends "are wasting everybody's time" because they don't know what God knows and has revealed to them, also to be given to those they are sent to---that is the measure by which you shall also (not) receive.

Thus, your "own view."

So be it.

Amen. And keep in mind that your views do not equal "God's views." Many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[ScottA]

Amen. And keep in mind that your views do not equal "God's views." Many are called, but few are chosen.

And you should "keep in mind" that if God has sent me with His "views" by the Holy Spirit...you have not spoken against me, but against Him who sent me.

 

[rwb]

When Paul refers to a "spirit body," I think he is talking about the effect Christ's Spirit has on us in the resurrection such that we become immortal and sinless. Our current "natural body" may indeed receive Eternal Life, but nevertheless remains subject to the Sin Nature and to Death.

This doesn't make sense??? The natural body of every human ever to have lived or shall live is under the curse and destined to die. The natural body can NEVER receive eternal life. Eternal life is given to the spirit in man and will live on after death through the Spirit of Christ in our spirit. Without the Spirit of Christ in us, we always remain natural man, destined to die because natural death is the consequence of sin.

The only part of man that becomes eternal through HIs life-giving Spirit is our spirit. Our spirit is what gives us the breath of life, a mind, and rational soul. When we are born again our spirit is no longer natural and carnal, of the world, destined with our body to die because of sin. From the moment we are born again, or born of the Spirit of life, the spiritually life we possess is eternal, because His Spirit will never leave us until our physical body too is resurrected immortal and incorruptible with our eternal spirit.

Our future "spirit bodies" will be physical, but will not be able to die.

Man is made of body and spirit which together are a living soul. It is not that we will have spirit bodies when our physical body is resurrected and changed. We will have immortal and incorruptible physical body and within our body an eternal spirit to give our body life.

We are not recipients of Eternal Life because our spirit is eternal. Both believer and unbeliever are eternal spirits but only believers have Eternal Life.

So "Eternal Life" is not the equivalent of "eternal" with respect to "eternal existence." Eternal Life refers specifically to our obtaining the immortal, sinless life of Christ with all of his virtues.

Eternal Life is a quality of life that merits living in the presence of God forever in a state of blessedness. That is why it is called "Eternal Life"--not because of eternal existence, but rather, because of eternal dwelling with the Lord in a blessed condition.

We have eternal life the moment we believe! Even though our body of flesh is under the curse and destined to die, Christ promises that "whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die". How could Christ say this knowing our body of flesh will die? Because the eternal life we have in Christ comes from His life-giving Spirit in our spirit.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This doesn't make sense??? The natural body of every human ever to have lived or shall live is under the curse and destined to die. The natural body can NEVER receive eternal life. Eternal life is given to the spirit in man and will live on after death through the Spirit of Christ in our spirit. Without the Spirit of Christ in us, we always remain natural man, destined to die because natural death is the consequence of sin.

It may not make sense from your pov, but it does from mine. I don't make the assumption that Eternal Life is strictly received in the spirit. The soul itself seems to be a combination between the body and the spirit, forming an ego, or identity. To be without a physical body the soul appears to be "unclothed," or in an unnatural position of existing as a person without the completion of a body, if it has died.

I think a man in his current natural form can receive Eternal Life in the sense that he can choose to gear his soul towards living in the Spirit of Christ, and not towards living in his own carnal desires. In other words, the Natural Man is viewed as being in a carnal state, wanting things independent of God except on occasion when it is convenient to depend on God.

It is said that the Natural Man cannot receive the things of God. Well, what this really means is that the Natural Man, if he continues to choose to live after the Natural Man, will never choose the Spiritual Man. He must, if he is to change, choose to change from being a Natural Man. And this comes from the Gospel, wherein God calls us back into relationship with Himself, and away from living independent lives.

When the Natural Man receives Eternal Life, he stops being identified as the Natural Man, even though he still lives in the flesh. He is no longer identified as one living after the flesh, but rather, as one living after the Spirit. He has received Eternal Life, but he has not yet received his new immortal body, which I am here calling the "Spirit-Body." That comes when Jesus comes again and grants us a resurrection to immortality.

If things don't make sense to you, it's probably because we're having a struggle over the definition of terms, like "Natural Man," the "Carnal Man," the "Reborn Man," etc.

The only part of man that becomes eternal through HIs life-giving Spirit is our spirit. Our spirit is what gives us the breath of life, a mind, and rational soul. When we are born again our spirit is no longer natural and carnal, of the world, destined with our body to die because of sin. From the moment we are born again, or born of the Spirit of life, the spiritually life we possess is eternal, because His Spirit will never leave us until our physical body too is resurrected immortal and incorruptible with our eternal spirit.

I can't completely disagree with that except that the idea we cannot receive Eternal Life in the possession of an immortal physical body doesn't make sense to me. To say we can only obtain Eternal Life in our spirit, to the exclusion of any physical resurrection body, seems absurd to me. If we're to be resurrected at all, it is not as bodily spirits, but rather, as physical "Spirit-Bodies."

Man is made of body and spirit which together are a living soul. It is not that we will have spirit bodies when our physical body is resurrected and changed. We will have immortal and incorruptible physical body and within our body an eternal spirit to give our body life.


We have eternal life the moment we believe! Even though our body of flesh is under the curse and destined to die, Christ promises that "whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die". How could Christ say this knowing our body of flesh will die? Because the eternal life we have in Christ comes from His life-giving Spirit in our spirit.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Most of this sounds so similar to what I believe I have a hard time understanding where we disagree?

 

[Randy Kluth]

And you should "keep in mind" that if God has sent me with His "views" by the Holy Spirit...you have not spoken against me, but against Him who sent me.

oh give me a break! Another one puffed up on himself, which we're warned to avoid like the plague...

Col 2.18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Acts 20.30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard!

2 Tim 3.6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires.

You have a huge ego problem. And you should quit "warning" people that if they reject you they reject God Himself! When you take God's name in vain, He won't hold you guiltless. That's a warning back at you!

 

[ScottA]

oh give me a break! Another one puffed up on himself, which we're warned to avoid like the plague...

Col 2.18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Acts 20.30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard!

2 Tim 3.6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires.

You have a huge ego problem. And you should quit "warning" people that if they reject you they reject God Himself! When you take God's name in vain, He won't hold you guiltless. That's a warning back at you!

Go ahead--heap it on...you who take away the key of knowledge and grieve the Holy Spirit.

 

[rwb]

It may not make sense from your pov, but it does from mine. I don't make the assumption that Eternal Life is strictly received in the spirit. The soul itself seems to be a combination between the body and the spirit, forming an ego, or identity. To be without a physical body the soul appears to be "unclothed," or in an unnatural position of existing as a person without the completion of a body, if it has died.

I'm not making an assumption. Yes, a living soul is what the physical body, and spirit in man is called. Our body cannot continue to have life without our spirit. But our spirit, IF we have been born again of the Spirit, shall never die even though our body will. Eternal life is only necessary for spiritual life, to enter spiritually into the Kingdom of God in heaven when our body dies. That's what Christ means when He says we must be born of the Spirit to know and enter the Kingdom of God. "Ye must be born again"!

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Our physical body will never have eternal life to enter the Kingdom of God in heaven after death, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Because it is mortal, and corrupt. Mortal beings cannot be eternal because mortal means to be under the curse of death.
When our physical body dies, we are not unclothed because through our living (soul) spirit we have an eternal place in heaven, and shall be clothed a spiritual body with our house which is from heaven. As long as we are clothed in physical bodies we feel burdened and long to have our mortal flesh swallowed up of life. God has given us assurance of this by giving us His Spirit. When we are absent from our mortal bodies of death, we shall be present with the Lord in heaven clothed in eternal living spiritual bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 (KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When the Natural Man receives Eternal Life, he stops being identified as the Natural Man, even though he still lives in the flesh. He is no longer identified as one living after the flesh, but rather, as one living after the Spirit. He has received Eternal Life, but he has not yet received his new immortal body, which I am here calling the "Spirit-Body." That comes when Jesus comes again and grants us a resurrection to immortality.

Yes, we speak as having eternal life once we have gone from natural man to spiritual man. But we still have our bodies destined to die, because though we say we have eternal life, we are still mortal man of flesh and blood, and our body will eventually die. The eternal life we possess is through Christ's Spirit in our spirit, who will be with us until our bodies too are resurrected and changed.

Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You said, "The soul itself seems to be a combination between the body and the spirit, forming an ego, or identity." You understand the body with the spirit is called a living soul. Calling our resurrected immortal body a spirit-body seems to imply something other than the human beings God created mankind to be on the earth. The spirit is one, and the body is one, and together they are a living soul. After our bodily resurrection we shall all be the living souls God created us to be when He breathed life (spirit) into the lump of clay, and man became a living soul, created with no more sin and with no more death. Our spirit eternal, and our body immortal without corruption for the new heaven and new earth, just as we were in the beginning.

I can't completely disagree with that except that the idea we cannot receive Eternal Life in the possession of an immortal physical body doesn't make sense to me. To say we can only obtain Eternal Life in our spirit, to the exclusion of any physical resurrection body, seems absurd to me. If we're to be resurrected at all, it is not as bodily spirits, but rather, as physical "Spirit-Bodies."

If our body is immortal, meaning it can never die, and incorruptible, meaning no longer will we grow weak, or sick, why would life in our new physical body need to be eternal, since our spirit which animates our body is eternal? Eternal together with immortal and incorruptible = a whole or complete living soul as we were before sin and death through sin spoiled God's creation.

I wonder if you are struggling against the fact that because when the spirit in man is indwelt with the life giving Spirit of Christ, in death we go a spiritual body to heaven? Do you deny eternal life through the Spirit truly means our spirit shall never die? Is that why you seem so determined to cling to our resurrected physical body as spirit-bodies? Even though the spirit and the body are not the same thing.

 

[Phoneman777]

(The Man Of Sin) will be a future individual human man, also seen as John's (The Beast) commonly referred to as (The Antichrist)

Nope, I agree with the Protestant Reformers that the "man of sin" is the line of papal leaders who claim to be "Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh" and claim "the sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it".