Darkness and light (poll)

[Episkopos]

Can the sun's light be imputed to the moon? Of course not. The moon merely reflects the light of the sun. The sun's light is ALWAYS the sun's light. However the moon can reflect the sun's light to lighten the darkness. Does anyone say of the moon at night ...Look at how nice the sunlight is?

No, the light coming from the moon is moonlight NOT sunlight.

ANY righteousness from God that shines on us and is reflected back into the world becomes attributable to us as our own righteousness. The righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:8​

“And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”

 

[-Phil]

Can the sun's light be imputed to the moon? Of course not. The moon merely reflects the light of the sun. The sun's light is ALWAYS the sun's light. However the moon can reflect the sun's light to lighten the darkness. Does anyone say of the moon at night ...Look at how nice the sunlight is?

No, the light coming from the moon is moonlight NOT sunlight.

“Moonlight” is an illusion of believing thoughts, as is the notion that sunlight is reflecting off the moon.
This was proven over a hundred years ago via quantum mechanics when the absolute speed of light was debunked.

ANY righteousness from God that shines on us and is reflected back into the world becomes attributable to us as our own righteousness. The righteousness of saints.

There is no actual division such as you imply.

Revelation 19:8​

“And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”

Saints is dressing up the ‘separate self’, which is as illusory as moonlight. It’s egomaniacal & deceptive.
Light isn’t a duality.

 

[Episkopos]

Light in the darkness.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt. 5:16

There are many verses that allude to light being righteousness. The light spoken of in this verse is not a physical light, but the spiritual effect of righteousness.
The righteous don't know they are righteous. But a tree is known by its fruit. Although the righteous don't have any other righteousness than their own


"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory." 1 Cor. 15:41


Different glories. The righteous are like distant stars...giving a little light. Autonomous, yet having a guiding effect in the night sky. The saints are like the moon...reflecting, not their own light, but the light of the sun (Son). The saint gives a much greater light but that light is not his/her own.

The righteous move up into sainthood by going from "glory to glory".

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 Cor. 3:18

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The righteous move up into sainthood by going from "glory to glory".

Ah…yes.
I see the verse in Romans 1 about “faith to faith” as meaning “believing to believing and obeying” and as - the obedience of faith that comes from faith.
I can now kind of see “glory to glory,” which I’ve never quite grasped, the same way. Sort of like, Him in me the hope of glory to him in me AND me in Him, (can’t quite finish it but I do see it.)

 

[Episkopos]

Still no votes for "imputed" light...or righteousness (which acts as light in the world). When the focus is taken away from the self...to see the doctrine for what it truly is, nobody seems to have the courage to stand for what they really (secretly, it seems) believe. Are people ashamed of claiming to be holy in their sins?

 

[Lizbeth]

What say you?

Transformation or cover-up (reformation)?

This just highlights the trouble with polls.....the polster gets to make up the questions and the wording of them. End up with misleading results.

 

[Episkopos]

This just highlights the trouble with polls.....the polster gets to make up the questions and the wording of them. End up with misleading results.

I think it clears up the issue. The Bible speaks of righteousness as light. Being the light of the world...showing the way to a world in darkness. So then my poll is a clarifier.

What muddies the water is when a concept is presented in an obscure way...and one that appeals to the desire of the carnal man to preserve his own life (thus avoiding the cross). In that case the mind latches onto the scheme and shuts out any other understanding.

We see this with the coke/pepsi taste test. Since the pepsi brand is sweeter, one could say it tastes "better" than the more bitter coke product.

"Theologies" work the same way. Although I don't see truth as theology. When we have a truth/theology taste test...guess which one seems better to human sensibilities? The "real thing" involves the bitter truth of letting go one's life to find eternal life.

Do you think light covers darkness? Do you think God's righteousness covers up unrighteousness?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

 

[Lizbeth]

Our bibles have a bias...a Christian bias (mostly correct), but also (King James version as an example) a reformation bias. Some verses are translated in a way that produces an undesirable result.

A prime example of that bias comes with the translation of Is. 1:18 into English.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Is. 1:18 (KJV)

This verse is translated as if God was speaking to our sins...as opposed to speaking to us. This way of reading the verse supports Luther's idea that justification involves "covering up" a dunghill of sin with a fresh coat of snow...thus making our sins appear to be white as snow.

However, reading the verse that way imposes a viewpoint that is incorrect. The whole chapter is addressing God's people, not their sins. A better rendering of the verse would read...

"......If your sins make you as scarlet, you shall be white as snow; if you become red as crimson, you shall be as wool" Is. 1:18 (non-biased version)

The whole context of the chapter is to cease to DO evil...not make evil appear as good.

Is God speaking to our sins or to us? Seeing that the translation from Hebrew has been corrupted to support a sinful holiness...what can be done? Are we as English speakers then cursed to misunderstand the word of God? Or does a simple non-biased rendering of the Hebrew shed light that dispels the darkness confusing the church?

It is speaking of forgiveness of sins and wiping the slate clean (our sins cast into the sea of forgetfulness). Dangerous to try rewording the bible in order to make it agree with our doctrines. It's written in prophetic spiritual language, kind of poetic....on purpose. There is no need to try and make everything literal and precise and logical - that just makes what was God's word to be carnal as opposed to spiritual. It wasn't written for the carnal mind, it was written for the heart. God's word is often written in a manner that tests hearts, as well as in a manner so as to hide the truth from the wise and learned.

Young's Literal renders it much the same as the KJV:

Isa 1:18
Come, I pray you, and we reason, saith Jehovah, If your sins are as scarlet, as snow they shall be white, If they are red as crimson, as wool they shall be!

Nobody who has the Spirit and is sincere with the Lord is going to use this verse to try and justify their sin. We understand what it's saying by the spirit. But if anyone does misuse it that way, well the word has exposed their heart.

Paul said that in him, in his flesh, dwells no good thing....the same is true for everyone, so we need the covering of the blood of Christ and imputation of righteousness, otherwise no one could be saved. Love covers a multitude of sins. And do not call unclean what God has made clean.

 

[Episkopos]

Here are a few examples of how God encourages our righteousness as being the light in the world. Righteousness and light are in direct relation.

And he shall bring forth your righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. Ps. 37:6

Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matt. 5:16

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Dan. 12:3

Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy reward. Is. 58:8

etc.....

 

[Lizbeth]

I think it clears up the issue. The Bible speaks of righteousness as light. Being the light of the world...showing the way to a world in darkness. So then my poll is a clarifier.

What muddies the water is when a concept is presented in an obscure way...and one that appeals to the desire of the carnal man to preserve his own life (thus avoiding the cross). In that case the mind latches onto the scheme and shuts out any other understanding.

We see this with the coke/pepsi taste test. Since the pepsi brand is sweeter, one could say it tastes "better" than the more bitter coke product.

"Theologies" work the same way. Although I don't see truth as theology. When we have a truth/theology taste test...guess which one seems better to human sensibilities? The "real thing" involves the bitter truth of letting go one's life to find eternal life.

Do you think light covers darkness? Do you think God's righteousness covers up unrighteousness?

That is your assumption of everyone's motives brother. (There is a lot of assuming going on around here.) Haven't we already established and agreed that the fear of the Lord is spiritual and doesn't have to be a carnal logical thing. He doesn't need us to help by trying to make the truth logical.

It's kind of like we are more than conquerors through Christ in truth, even when the facts on the ground are the opposite. This is not logical yet we understand and believe by faith.

 

[Episkopos]

Isa 1:18
Come, I pray you, and we reason, saith Jehovah, If your sins are as scarlet, as snow they shall be white, If they are red as crimson, as wool they shall be!

Nobody who has the Spirit and is sincere with the Lord is going to use this verse to try and justify their sin. We understand what it's saying by the spirit. But if anyone does misuse it that way, well the word has exposed their heart.

And yet this is precisely what Luther did and his point is...to show how our sins are no big deal to God. He covers up our sins....like the fresh snow on the dunghill. Although our sins appear awful...yet when they are covered up...they seem white as snow! This doctrine is very important to those who don't believe it is possible to walk in resurrection life. For most reformation believers, they have a license to sin (although a human effort to not sin is required to "help" grace along) in that they don't believe that Jesus Christ can set us free from the bondage to sin. Call this theological...I call it a lack of faith and understanding of the gospel.

Paul said that in him, in his flesh, dwells no good thing....the same is true for everyone, so we need the covering of the blood of Christ and imputation of righteousness, otherwise no one could be saved. Love covers a multitude of sins. And do not call unclean what God has made clean.

God has always been merciful. We will all be judged in the future based on what we have done with what we have been given. Your focus is about a future salvation. This involves an inheritance of salvation. But this is not the gospel.

The gospel is concerned about how we are to live NOW....to have this treasure in earthen vessels

So you have bought into Luther's lies without considering their effect.

We are to walk above sin by the power of Christ...now! Where is the faith in God these days? Where is the abiding in Christ? Jesus said that there would be little to no faith before He came back. And we see this very clearly in the modern churches...full of theologies but no life or power from heaven.

 

[Lizbeth]

Pro 4:18
The path of the righteous is like the morning sun, shining ever brighter till the full light of day.

 

[Episkopos]

That is your assumption of everyone's motives brother. (There is a lot of assuming going on around here.) Haven't we already established and agreed that the fear of the Lord is spiritual and doesn't have to be a carnal logical thing. He doesn't need us to help by trying to make the truth logical.

It's kind of like we are more than conquerors through Christ in truth, even when the facts on the ground are the opposite. This is not logical yet we understand and believe by faith.

Paul tried reasoning with his hearers. And Jesus used logic to show how one thing was better than the other. Think which person loved his neighbour as himself? Was it the Samaritan?

When Jesus made a poll (the kind you don't like) to "twist" the understanding of what it takes to love our neighbour....I say He was clarifying a very practical thing. I'm doing EXACTLY the same thing with my poll...using the biblical narrative to show the difference between what light does and what darkness does. Very simple. Back in the day would you not see Jesus as stacking the deck against a religious understanding of remaining untainted by the flesh?

How honest can you be at this point? You have a religious understanding that stands in the way of heavenly revelation.

 

[Episkopos]

Pro 4:18
The path of the righteous is like the morning sun, shining ever brighter till the full light of day.

Are you now trying to negate a preponderance of verses with a verse that shows a brighter light? Of course the saints are like the moon. But the moon isn't against the stars.

The moon is always bathed in the light of the sun. (unless there is an earth eclipse).

Without understanding the different glories (righteousneses) your understanding will remain darkened.

It;s ironic that reformation types see their own righteousness as God's. And to make matters worse, they look down on the righteousness of others as being inferior to their own. God will judge.

 

[Lizbeth]

And yet this is precisely what Luther did and his point is...to show how our sins are no big deal to God. He covers up our sins....like the fresh snow on the dunghill. Although our sins appear awful...yet when they are covered up...they seem white as snow! This doctrine is very important to those who don't believe it is possible to walk in resurrection life. For most reformation believers, they have a license to sin (although a human effort to not sin is required to "help" grace along) in that they don't believe that Jesus Christ can set us free from the bondage to sin. Call this theological...I call it a lack of faith and understanding of the gospel.

God has always been merciful. We will all be judged in the future based on what we have done with what we have been given. Your focus is about a future salvation. This involves an inheritance of salvation. But this is not the gospel.

The gospel is concerned about how we are to live NOW....to have this treasure in earthen vessels

So you have bought into Luther's lies without considering their effect.

We are to walk above sin by the power of Christ...now! Where is the faith in God these days? Where is the abiding in Christ? Jesus said that there would be little to no faith before He came back. And we see this very clearly in the modern churches...full of theologies but no life or power from heaven.

I don't know Luther and what he believed or wrote (only snippets of what others say). I don't doubt there are those who would abuse that and many other verses of scripture. I can tell you that I don't misuse it or any other verse to justify anything sinful about me. And I have known many other believers who are sincere in seeking to walk righteously and don't abuse it as well. It's by the spirit of Christ within that we have a conscience that does not allow us to deliberately disobey God and walk in sin and it is by that same spirit that we also fear the Lord. And of course we have His word to light the way that we are to walk in, instruction in righteousness, knowing God's will for us, and right from wrong, etc.

 

[Episkopos]

I think we need to go to non-indoctrinated worldly people to get the truth on the matter. Ask any worldly scientist what the effect of light has on darkness...and the answer will be a truth that is unable to be understood by religiously dogmatic blinder carrying "believers".

 

[Episkopos]

I don't know Luther and what he believed or wrote (only snippets of what others say). I don't doubt there are those who would abuse that and many other verses of scripture. I can tell you that I don't misuse it or any other verse to justify anything sinful about me. And I have known many other believers who are sincere in seeking to walk righteously and don't abuse it as well. It's by the spirit of Christ within that we have a conscience that does not allow us to deliberately disobey God and walk in sin and it is by that same spirit that we also fear the Lord. And of course we have His word to light the way that we are to walk in, instruction in righteousness, knowing God's will for us, and right from wrong, etc.

The test of whether a modern believer has faith in God or not. Do you believe that through grace you can walk as Jesus walked..without spot or wrinkle of sin. (and I'm not talking about "positional" or "imputed" religious mumbo-jumbo). I'm talking being as pure as our Lord.

EPHESIANS 5:27 – That He might present to Himself the church In all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

 

[Episkopos]

Why can’t it be both !?
it reveals and hides x

Both? It all depends on what the flesh requires I suppose ? We manipulate the bible to serve our needs. It exposes others sins...but covers mine! ?????

It is with logic such as this that we see how we can be cut off, or spit out of, the kingdom.

Maybe I should have added a 3rd option to the poll. As in : Both: depending on what serves our carnal needs.

 

[Lizbeth]

Paul tried reasoning with his hearers. And Jesus used logic to show how one thing was better than the other. Think which person loved his neighbour as himself? Was it the Samaritan?

When Jesus made a poll (the kind you don't like) to "twist" the understanding of what it takes to love our neighbour....I say He was clarifying a very practical thing. I'm doing EXACTLY the same thing with my poll...using the biblical narrative to show the difference between what light does and what darkness does. Very simple. Back in the day would you not see Jesus as stacking the deck against a religious understanding of remaining untainted by the flesh?

How honest can you be at this point? You have a religious understanding that stands in the way of heavenly revelation.

No, it's not religious, quite the opposite. Religion is what seeks to establish our own righteousness instead of submitting (yielding) to the righteousness of God/Christ.

Christ is the cornerstone of our faith....the foundation that we are building on - His holy spirit and righteous nature taking up residence within the believer (which then begins to battle our darkness). It is grieving that any would try to essentially dig out and discard that cornerstone. Having experiences and testimonies is wonderful, but no guarantee at all that we are getting all of our theology right. We dont' always even understand what God is doing when we have an experience or vision. We're very small and He is so great. At best we only know in part.