Darkness and light (poll)

[Lizbeth]

Agreed. But that remnant includes some Catholics. Rather than rest on our laurels, we need to push forward in knowledge, wisdom and understanding. To do that we need to abandon ALL compromise with the flesh, and the religious ideologies that divide the body into immature factions.



This is where a better understanding is required. His holiness is never within us. And crucifixion is not a long process of interminable suffering and not dying. No, crucifixion kills the outer man instantly by separating us in two (torn asunder) in order to liberate the inner man to be translated into God's presence where Jesus is.

The "Christ in you" is a TEMPLATE that we grow into. The life that is buried in the inner man will only come out as the outer man is crucified. The outer man is a husk of EGO that gets us along in this world. But the outer man is also the seat of sin. Once we are crucified with Christ, the sin factory is shut down so that we can walk in the light of HIS holiness.

The "hope" of glory is not the certainty of glory. We need to be broken to allow the life within to come out and bear eternal fruit.

It is the HOLY Spirit that indwells believers, yes? We receive it/Him when we come to faith. It is BY the HOLY Spirit that we even come to faith...it's His faith given to us through His Spirit that we are receiving, not of our own, that no man may boast. The HOLY Spirit within is what sanctifies us....it's His holiness. Agree that we are being conformed to the image of Christ. And I agree with your last sentence there.

 

[Episkopos]

It is the HOLY Spirit that indwells believers, yes? We receive it/Him when we come to faith. It is BY the HOLY Spirit that we even come to faith...it's His faith given to us through His Spirit that we are receiving, not of our own, that no man may boast. The HOLY Spirit within is what sanctifies us....it's His holiness. Agree that we are being conformed to the image of Christ. And I agree with your last sentence there.

No. The Spirit only fills us when we are FILLED with the Holy Spirit to walk as Jesus walked. Otherwise His influence over us GUIDES us...as we allow ourselves to be LED by the Spirit.

Christ in us is a TEMPLATE into which we are fashioned (hammered) into the likeness of Christ. Otherwise, if Jesus was truly in us in His holiness, we would be instantly mature as He is. However, when the anointing of Christ is ON us...then we are filled with the Spirit in His PURITY (sinlessness) . But that only happens when the outer man is out of the way.

The one who walks in the Spirit is FILLED with His life, love and power.

But as believers we can be led by the Spirit without being filled. It is a very good thing...unless..one begins to assume and presume things that aren't true. Then we become like the Israelites in the wilderness who were led by the Spirit but whose carcasses were left there because of unbelief in the truth.

 

[Episkopos]

You are thinking too hard about these things brother.

And remember in the bible the allegory of a wife/bride being covered with her husband's (Bridegroom's) garment, not of her own. This is why Ruth covered herself with Boaz's robe...she was offering herself to be his wife/bride. A husband provides covering for his wife.

You are making my argument for me. Why don't you see then that the anointing of Christ is ON us ...so that His life can be revealed IN us.

 

[marks]

The "hope" of glory is not the certainty of glory.

In the Bible, "Hope" speaks of our believing what Jesus has promised, and therefore expecting His promise to come to pass. We trust Jesus. Jesus promised us resurrection. We have the "hope" of the resurrection because we believe Jesus.

Biblical "hope" is not wistful or uncertain, and does not describe some emotional longing, like the American English way of using "hope".

God has a "hope", same word, for His redeemed. He will not be disappointed and neither shall we, who trust in Jesus.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

God has ALWAYS been merciful. The righteous will sin...but their hearts are right with God. And the righteous NEVER claim to be righteous. The righteous INHERIT eternal life in that they did what was right with what little strength they had. Their attitude of humility and mercy on others allows them to escape judgment themselves. Judge no other lest you be judged.

However, the holy standard does not allow for sin of any kind. If we walk in the light as He is in the light, His life (blood) cleanses us from all sin. If we claim to be in Christ and walk as normal people with an uncrucified outer man...Paul says..

“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.” Gal. 2:17

My issue with my evangelical brethren is to awaken them from their delusion and have them be innocent of iniquity. Now, no one likes to be woken from a deep sleep. Who is claiming to be justified by Christ? Are they still sinners? If we made no such claim, then the penetrating light of God's righteousness would not be cast on us to reveal how we are liars (unless we are truly justified by walking in His resurrection life)

The better path is humility....but religious arrogance of the "saved" outer man will have no degrading of its rule over the believers life. So then we make Christ to be a minster of sin...and God's righteousness to be as filthy rags. Why can't you understand this? It boggles the mind.

I just believe what is written brother, I'm used to bible language and I guess that is really the only language I understand things in. The Lord teaches me very simply. You are imputing arrogance and smugness to everyone who believes in imputed righteousness. I certainly do not make Christ a minister of sin....it matters what we do with so great a salvation after we have received it. But it certainly is a great salvation! How often do I thank Him for it even as I am confessing my stupid shortcomings to Him and begging for Him to change me and for grace to do better.

Rom 4:2-8
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

But if any continue to sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth they can't expect this blessedness and God's longsuffering to continue indefinitely. God is not mocked. Etc....lots of similar warnings and admonitions in the bible.

No. The Spirit only fills us when we are FILLED with the Holy Spirit to walk as Jesus walked. Otherwise His influence over us GUIDES us...as we allow ourselves to be LED by the Spirit.

Christ in us is a TEMPLATE into which we are fashioned (hammered) into the likeness of Christ. Otherwise, if Jesus was truly in us in His holiness, we would be instantly mature as He is. However, when the anointing of Christ is ON us...then we are filled with the Spirit in His PURITY (sinlessness) . But that only happens when the outer man is out of the way.

The one who walks in the Spirit is FILLED with His life, love and power.

But as believers we can be led by the Spirit without being filled. It is a very good thing...unless..one begins to assume and presume things that aren't true. Then we become like the Israelites in the wilderness who were led by the Spirit but whose carcasses were left there because of unbelief in the truth.

After His resurrection but before the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the believers in the upper room, Jesus breathed on His disciples and told them to receive the Holy Spirit (John 20). I don't know but maybe that needs to be included in your equation? That is like us who receive the Holy Spirit when we come to faith in Christ.....baptism in the Holy Spirit is a different thing and usually comes afterward for most believers (though for some the baptism is at the same time they come to faith).

 

[Nancy]

God has ALWAYS been merciful. The righteous will sin...but their hearts are right with God. And the righteous NEVER claim to be righteous. The righteous INHERIT eternal life in that they did what was right with what little strength they had. Their attitude of humility and mercy on others allows them to escape judgment themselves. Judge no other lest you be judged.

However, the holy standard does not allow for sin of any kind. If we walk in the light as He is in the light, His life (blood) cleanses us from all sin. If we claim to be in Christ and walk as normal people with an uncrucified outer man...Paul says..

“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.” Gal. 2:17

My issue with my evangelical brethren is to awaken them from their delusion and have them be innocent of iniquity. Now, no one likes to be woken from a deep sleep. Who is claiming to be justified by Christ? Are they still sinners? If we made no such claim, then the penetrating light of God's righteousness would not be cast on us to reveal how we are liars (unless we are truly justified by walking in His resurrection life)

The better path is humility....but religious arrogance of the "saved" outer man will have no degrading of its rule over the believers life. So then we make Christ to be a minster of sin...and God's righteousness to be as filthy rags. Why can't you understand this? It boggles the mind.

Oh brother, you are NOT easy to understand a lot, lol...you can get pretty deep! There are bits and pieces of what you say that I can begin to grasp and, they have on occasion had me re-thinking and maybe even changing my stance on some things. And there are things that are way out of my reach although, I do try!

 

[Keturah]

I think some are more puffed up than marshmallows and have imploded.

When there is refusal of the truth of the word and " No it's as I say" then it's a sounding brass.

It is NOT DEPTH IN THE WORD when one continues to  DENY the word. It's call self- righteousness much as the Pharasees of Jesus' day. We know Jesus said OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS MUST EXCEED theirs. Yet I see they still are among us and have NOT been translated bc they walked with and pleased God that he took them !

 

[Episkopos]

Oh brother, you are NOT easy to understand a lot, lol...you can get pretty deep! There are bits and pieces of what you say that I can begin to grasp and, they have on occasion had me re-thinking and maybe even changing my stance on some things. And there are things that are way out of my reach although, I do try!

All I'm doing is using the understanding of God's ways (plural) as being a walk in our faith towards righteousness or/and a walk in the faith OF Christ in holiness. The bible makes sense if you understand there are two testaments. Each has a standard that is according to either mercy or grace. We mix these up at our peril.

 

[Nancy]

All I'm doing is using the understanding of God's ways (plural) as being a walk in our faith towards righteousness or/and a walk in the faith OF Christ in holiness. The bible makes sense if you understand there are two testaments. Each has a standard that is according to either mercy or grace. We mix these up at our peril.

Oh I know you are quite sincere, and that you do study diligently Epi. That was not at all a dig at you! And yes, I agree that the constant mix up between the old and the new testaments is done at our own peril. Some do not even care to open the pages of the OT!
It is solid meat brother, and the church's of the last like however many hundreds of years has placed it on the back burner for the most part hence, they have produced Christians who do not have the deeper understandings that generally come with the OT. And that's okay, IMHO... if they have Christ as their only savior and want only to please Him.
I find the OT as paralleled with the NT awesomely interesting...where God gives me understanding anyhow.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Liz, did you used to be on a zoom I went to?

 

[mailmandan]

In the Bible, "Hope" speaks of our believing what Jesus has promised, and therefore expecting His promise to come to pass. We trust Jesus. Jesus promised us resurrection. We have the "hope" of the resurrection because we believe Jesus.

Biblical "hope" is not wistful or uncertain, and does not describe some emotional longing, like the American English way of using "hope".

God has a "hope", same word, for His redeemed. He will not be disappointed and neither shall we, who trust in Jesus.

Much love!

Amen! Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To let go of ego....be weaned of the flesh...we need to allow light to doits work...and stop resisting the bitter truth. The truth is bitter at first...but then it is sweet in the belly. The lie is sweet at first...but turns bitter in the belly. See Rev. 10.

I had to sit with that through 2 cups of coffee. It was both a morning meditation AND the puzzle of the day.

I see it most when I note something that is a wonderful promise to me is something others try to explain away and refuse. Its like…what I see as a blessing or hope or promise they see as a curse…

 

[Episkopos]

Amen! Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

The issue is the basis for the hope. And what part of us is doing the hoping. Jesus said that whoever loses their life will find it. If we are attaching ourselves to the hope of Christ with the wrong part of us...the part that is to die for union with Him...do we not end up in a situation like those believers who say... Lord, Lord....and yet are rejected?

While we are still living here and able to change course, isn't it wise to make our calling and election sure? Or is religious certainty something that doesn't allow for the fear of the Lord?

 

[mailmandan]

The issue is the basis for the hope. And what part of us is doing the hoping. Jesus said that whoever loses their life will find it. If we are attaching ourselves to the hope of Christ with the wrong part of us...the part that is to die for union with Him...do we not end up in a situation like those believers who say... Lord, Lord....and yet are rejected?

While we are still living here and able to change course, isn't it wise to make our calling and election sure? Or is religious certainty something that doesn't allow for the fear of the Lord?

You seem to be over thinking this and those in the situation who say Lord, Lord.. yet we're rejected in Matthew 7:22-23 were not genuine believers. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved.

In regards to 2 Peter 1:5-7, by cultivating these qualities listed, believers can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect.

In  Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[Episkopos]

You seem to be over thinking this and those in the situation who say Lord, Lord.. yet we're rejected in Matthew 7:22-23 were not genuine believers. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved.

Do you mean they never THOUGHT they were saved? And what does that have to do with the multitudes who consider themselves as being saved...but in reality are not? How does your type of thinking help anyone. As in..they lost because they were losers. Or...they won because they were winners. They were rejected because they were NEVER saved.

I heartily disagree with pawning off and writing off the lives of so many by relegating them to an inevitable condemnation. Can God be faulted for not saving them?

Or is it something that is based on our own responsibility.

In regards to 2 Peter 1:5-7, by cultivating these qualities listed, believers can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect.

In  Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

Here you are saying the exact opposite of what you just said. If we are responsible to bear fruit by ADDING to our salvation...in order to keep it, then the rejected ones who say Lord, Lord, were definitely saved at one point. but didn't follow through in obedience.

I think what messes people up is the fact that Jesus says...NEVER. So the quick reaction is to think they NEVER accepted Jesus as their saviour (I know...shallow American "theology").

However, it is precisely those who say Lord, Lord...who believe they are saved today. Otherwise they would not consider Jesus as their Lord. And if all who believe in the Lord are saved...then your idea becomes less plausible still.

So there is a big difference between being saved and just thinking you are. And any truth will try to dispel that difference.

The evangelical mindset , I find, hates to question the depth of conversion...instead thinking...I KNOW I'm saved...I'm not sure about you!

 

[mailmandan]

Do you mean they never THOUGHT they were saved? And what does that have to do with the multitudes who consider themselves as being saved...but in reality are not? How does your type of thinking help anyone. As in..they lost because they were losers. Or...they won because they were winners. They were rejected because they were NEVER saved.

I heartily disagree with pawning off and writing off the lives of so many by relegating them to an inevitable condemnation. Can God be faulted for not saving them?

Or is it something that is based on our own responsibility.



Here you are saying the exact opposite of what you just said. If we are responsible to bear fruit by ADDING to our salvation...in order to keep it, then the rejected ones who say Lord, Lord, were definitely saved at one point. but didn't follow through in obedience.

I think what messes people up is the fact that Jesus says...NEVER. So the quick reaction is to think they NEVER accepted Jesus as their saviour (I know...shallow American "theology").

However, it is precisely those who say Lord, Lord...who believe they are saved today. Otherwise they would not consider Jesus as their Lord. And if all who believe in the Lord are saved...then your idea becomes less plausible still.

So there is a big difference between being saved and just thinking you are. And any truth will try to dispel that difference.

The evangelical mindset , I find, hates to question the depth of conversion...instead thinking...I KNOW I'm saved...I'm not sure about you!

The correct answer for these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 would have been 'Lord, Lord, didn't YOU and not 'Lord, Lord, didn't we.' These people had the wrong foundation and were trusting in works for salvation and not in Christ alone.

Nothing is mentioned in 2 Peter 1:5-7 about adding works to our salvation in order to keep it. That is your eisegesis. Salvation is neither obtained or maintained by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 Peter 1:9)

 

[Episkopos]

The correct answer for these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 would have been 'Lord, Lord, didn't YOU and not 'Lord, Lord, didn't we.' These people had the wrong foundation and were trusting in works for salvation and not in Christ alone.

Quite the opposite. We are to seek the Lord while He may be found. People are taught to believe they are already accepted by God...so all they have to do is "accept" His free offer of salvation....no faithfulness necessary.
If the salvation is all in the mind of the one who claims the free favour of God...then no wonder Jesus has nothing personally to do with it.

The rejected ones were speaking of the the "proof" of their faith by what they ministered in HIS name...sounds like pastors to me.

Nothing is mentioned in 2 Peter 1:5-7 about adding works to our salvation in order to keep it. That is your eisegesis. Salvation is neither obtained or maintained by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 Peter 1:9)

Au contraire mon frère.

Go a little further in 2 Pet. 1


8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Peter is relating a cautionary tale of having a firm foundation which is based on good works...obedience. Or as Jesus says...building on the rock of DOING what we are supposed to do.

I think the rejected ones will be those who sat on their hands and did nothing...thinking the free sample of grace is the same as entering into Christ by a costly full measure of grace.

Keeping the whole counsel of God means being obedient to Jesus and His commands and admonitions.

And salvation is based on walking above sin by grace right now. INHERITING salvation is about God's mercy on whom He wills come judgment day. No guarantees for those who "accept" Jesus as their eternal insurance policy...quite the opposite actually. It's not based on our works nor our beliefs...you should say.

Peter is speaking of grace AND our human responsibility to ADD to what we have received in human godly character. If you think that is salvation by works of the law (Judaism) then you are so very misguided.

 

[mailmandan]

Quite the opposite. We are to seek the Lord while He may be found. People are taught to believe they are already accepted by God...so all they have to do is "accept" His free offer of salvation....no faithfulness necessary.
If the salvation is all in the mind of the one who claims the free favour of God...then no wonder Jesus has nothing personally to do with it.

The rejected ones were speaking of the the "proof" of their faith by what they ministered in HIS name...sounds like pastors to me.


Au contraire mon frère.

Go a little further in 2 Pet. 1


8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Peter is relating a cautionary tale of having a firm foundation which is based on good works...obedience. Or as Jesus says...building on the rock of DOING what we are supposed to do.

I think the rejected ones will be those who sat on their hands and did nothing...thinking the free sample of grace is the same as entering into Christ by a costly full measure of grace.

Keeping the whole counsel of God means being obedient to Jesus and His commands and admonitions.

And salvation is based on walking above sin by grace right now. INHERITING salvation is about God's mercy on whom He wills come judgment day. No guarantees for those who "accept" Jesus as their eternal insurance policy...quite the opposite actually. It's not based on our works nor our beliefs...you should say.

Peter is speaking of grace AND our human responsibility to ADD to what we have received in human godly character. If you think that is salvation by works of the law (Judaism) then you are so very misguided.

You teach performance based works salvation and sinless perfection which is the opposite of what scripture teaches. (Romans 4:5-6; 1 John 1:8-10)

..if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (vs. 8). For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins (vs. 9).

What is the object of the forgetting? Is this forgetting temporary because this believer had fallen into error or does this lack of fruit exist because this person’s "cleansing" was merely an external reformation that did not come from a truly changed heart?

The genuineness of their profession will be demonstrated as they express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

Once again, *Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[marks]

Amen! Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

The strength of one's hope is in the strength of their faith. Attack someone's hope is attacking their faith. If it's not Biblical, that's one thing. But for Biblical hope and Biblical faith, those who would fight against that, well, I don't want to be in their shoes!

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Virtue signaling, dripping from the rafters.