Heaven

[amadeus]

There is a mistake here, Amadeus. I didn't say what you quoted me as saying. Have a nice day.

Yes it must have been the way I input this:

"Yes, to God, but are we God? How like God are we already? Do we not have growing time and potential remaining to us so as to continue to move away from the fiction and on toward and into the Reality?",,,

It was supposed to be my response @Enoch111 to his post #34. I deleted my previous response

 

[Davy]

But what makes you think heaven is a physical place, and not a spiritual place?

Sorry, I don't believe you understand the difference between the word 'physical' and the word 'spiritual', for example, Jesus said 'that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit' (John 3). How did He mean that?

 

[Bob Estey]

Sorry, I don't believe you understand the difference between the word 'physical' and the word 'spiritual', for example, Jesus said 'that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit' (John 3). How did He mean that?

I think I understand the difference between physical and spiritual very well. I'm sitting on a chair in a condo in the city of Sparks, Nevada on the planet earth. That is physical.

Meanwhile, I try not to sin, which brings me great peace as I try to walk with the Lord in my life - that is spiritual.

 

[Enoch111]

Perhaps the rejection is hell on/in earth... or death on/in earth? Perhaps the heaven or the hell is in men depending on where they are at the moment with or without God?

Actually Heaven and Hell are literally specific "geographic" regions and both are outside this universe. So there is no need to spiritualize them.

 

[Davy]

I think I understand the difference between physical and spiritual very well. I'm sitting on a chair in a condo in the city of Sparks, Nevada on the planet earth. That is physical.

Meanwhile, I try not to sin, which brings me great peace as I try to walk with the Lord in my life - that is spiritual.

We walk with The LORD by The Holy Spirit, and that is a spiritual operation.

But sins of our flesh are not spiritual, but of this flesh world.

Furthermore, that other dimension of existence called Heaven, it is a manifesting of Spirit. But that still involves the outward likeness 'image of man', for that image originates from GOD Himself, and all the angels have that outward image. So is that image of man in the heavenly 'physical'? How do you explain that heavenly image?

1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

 

[Bob Estey]

We walk with The LORD by The Holy Spirit, and that is a spiritual operation.

But sins of our flesh are not spiritual, but of this flesh world.

Furthermore, that other dimension of existence called Heaven, it is a manifesting of Spirit. But that still involves the outward likeness 'image of man', for that image originates from GOD Himself, and all the angels have that outward image. So is that image of man in the heavenly 'physical'? How do you explain that heavenly image?

1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Well, I'm guessing we'll have bodies in the resurrection, but I won't know for sure till we get there.

 

[Davy]

Well, I'm guessing we'll have bodies in the resurrection, but I won't know for sure till we get there.

Yet God's Word shows us those who have died are in the heavenly and live "in the spirit"...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

Luke 20:37-38
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.
KJV

 

[Bob Estey]

Yet God's Word shows us those who have died are in the heavenly and live "in the spirit"...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

Luke 20:37-38
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.
KJV

We could, and should, live in the spirit now.

 

[Enoch111]

Well, I'm guessing we'll have bodies in the resurrection, but I won't know for sure till we get there.

There's no need to guess. Simply read and study 1 Corinthians 15 and believe what God says through Paul.

 

[Gottservant]

The world seems to think you can't go to heaven till you die. Jesus, of course, said otherwise:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17 RSV

So is the world right or is Jesus right?

This word helped me, thank you.

 

[Keraz]

Heaven is God’s dwelling place, we never go there, Jesus said so. John 3:13

Heaven is God’s home. Earth is our home. The Lord Jesus, as the Son of God and the Son of man will eventually make Heaven and Earth as one.

Ephesians 1:10…everything in heaven and earth will be brought together under one Head; Jesus Christ.

Just as the separation between heaven and earth will be forever demolished through Jesus, so too will the separation between God and mankind be removed.

Revelation 21:3 Now: the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them.

Zechariah 9:10 The Lord will banish all the things of war, He will proclaim peace to the nations and His rule will extend to the ends of the earth.

God’s plan is to make all things as one, to remove the separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds. This is the ultimate plan of God and the finale of secular history. When God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, it was then a part of heaven, but when they sinned, angels with flaming swords kept mankind out and we await its re-establishment on earth. Revelation 21 to 22

Will those who will live with Jesus during His Millennial reign, have spiritual bodies? No, because there will be many still alive at His Return, Matthew 24:31 and when He was resurrected, He still ate and drank in a body suited for earthly living. John 21:12

Revelation 20:4-6…the souls of those who were killed for their faith in God, were resurrected and they will reign with Christ for 1000 years… On earth!

People who think there is a rapture to heaven, where they believe they will have heavenly, spiritual bodies have failed to understand that God’s purpose from the beginning of humankind, was to establish a place and a people who would display His glory and to share eternal life with Christ. Hebrews 2:14-15, Revelation 22:14



For now, we face daily challenges in our lives and on the world scene, but the knowledge that a regenerated earth is coming should reassure us and give us the right perspective. There is a purpose in all that happens, the injustices and suffering will not last, they are part of the testing process we all must go through. God will make everything right, rewarding those who stood firm and trusted Him in all the trials and temptations of this world. 1 Corinthians 16:13

The people who will live with Jesus in the Millennium period, are being prepared now. Remember, it may not be the proud and self-promoting people who will be chosen, it’s the meek who will inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5 Those people will then be under the benevolent government of the resurrected saints, with Jesus as King.



Will it be boring to be good all the time? It is wrong to assume sin is exciting and righteousness isn’t. That is the Devil’s lie, his basic strategy, but the reality is that sin robs us of fulfilment, sin doesn’t expand life, it shrinks it and sin’s emptiness inevitably leads to boredom. Where there’s fulfilment, where there’s beauty, where we won’t have to struggle for existence and as God’s mysteries unfold to us, that is the ultimate human utopia: ON EARTH.
Ref: lgostelos.info

 

[Davy]

We could, and should, live in the spirit now.

Well, according those Scriptures I showed from 1 Peter 3 & 4, to 'literally' live "in the spirit" like it is saying would mean we would have to be dead like those are, literally, and in that other dimension of existence in the heavenly.

When Apostle Paul in Galatians 5 was talking about walking in The Spirit, he was not pointing to that same idea as 1 Peter 4:6. Paul was pointing to walking by The Holy Spirit as our Guide for the here and now, which is what you are pointing to.

See the difference?

 

[amadeus]

Actually Heaven and Hell are literally specific "geographic" regions and both are outside this universe. So there is no need to spiritualize them.

This is perhaps what you believe, but you have stated it as a fact. To prove it by what is written in the Bible or by the scientific method to all readers on this forum would be, I believe, difficult.

 

[Bob Estey]

Well, according those Scriptures I showed from 1 Peter 3 & 4, to 'literally' live "in the spirit" like it is saying would mean we would have to be dead like those are, literally, and in that other dimension of existence in the heavenly.

When Apostle Paul in Galatians 5 was talking about walking in The Spirit, he was not pointing to that same idea as 1 Peter 4:6. Paul was pointing to walking by The Holy Spirit as our Guide for the here and now, which is what you are pointing to.

See the difference?

When you're walking with the Lord, you are in the spirit, I believe.

 

[Davy]

This is perhaps what you believe, but you have stated it as a fact. To prove it by what is written in the Bible or by the scientific method to all readers on this forum would be, I believe, difficult.

Yeah, that idea that heaven and hell is somewhere in the universe is close to what a lot of the Jews believe. From my experience, many of the Jews have a hard time understanding the dimension of the heavenly that exists behind a veil that we cannot see. The things of the universe, planets, stars, galaxies, etc., are all part of this 'earthly dimension' we live in, which is made of material matter. The heavenly dimension is one of Spirit, and not material matter.

 

[Enoch111]

This is perhaps what you believe, but you have stated it as a fact. To prove it by what is written in the Bible or by the scientific method to all readers on this forum would be, I believe, difficult.

Not at all. Revelation 4 and 5 establish the reality of a literal Heaven. Revelation 20 establishes the reality of a literal Hell. That is "scientific" from God's perspective, and that is all that really matters. And there are many other passages to support these. Now if you want to be a skeptic you are free to be skeptical. You could also say "Yea, hath God said...?"

People are willing to believe that the astronauts literally landed on the moon, but unwilling to believe what God has revealed.

 

[amadeus]

Not at all. Revelation 4 and 5 establish the reality of a literal Heaven. Revelation 20 establishes the reality of a literal Hell. That is "scientific" from God's perspective, and that is all that really matters. And there are many other passages to support these. Now if you want to be a skeptic you are free to be skeptical. You could also say "Yea, hath God said...?"

People are willing to believe that the astronauts literally landed on the moon, but unwilling to believe what God has revealed.

I really believe we must live for God by faith, my friend, but where to start? What does the word "literal" mean to you? It certainly means something different to me

In the beginning God..." Gen 1:1

And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded." Gen 11:5 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city." Gen 11:8

Are you with me at all on this?

 

[Enoch111]

I really believe we must live for God by faith, my friend, but where to start?

True. And we start by believing in a literal Heaven and a literal Hell. That is what the Gospel is all about. Salvation from Hell and a guarantee of Heaven. And it is only in and through Christ that this happens "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12).

 

[Davy]

True. And we start by believing in a literal Heaven and a literal Hell. That is what the Gospel is all about. Salvation from Hell and a guarantee of Heaven. And it is only in and through Christ that this happens "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12).

Yet we are given evidence that the abode of Satan and his angels is in Heaven.

The following war in Heaven has not happened yet today. It will happen at the end of this world for the time of "great tribulation"...

Rev 12:7-10
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

For Satan's abode of hell to be in the earth, literally, then it can never be shown that "their place" was in "heaven". Yet there it is above, showing his place is in heaven until this future event towards the end of this world.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
KJV

That 10th verse is showing us that when Satan is cast out the heavenly dimension, that is when the power of Christ will manifest in Heaven without Satan being allowed to accuse us before The Father's throne anymore. That unto the Rev.12:17 verse is about events for the end involving the coming "great tribulation".

 

[amadeus]

True. And we start by believing in a literal Heaven and a literal Hell.

I believe in a "literal" heaven and "literal" hell, but does literal necessarily mean physical? Does it necessarily mean only something fitting a man's geographical definition? Have we tried to put God into a man-made box?

That is what the Gospel is all about. Salvation from Hell and a guarantee of Heaven. And it is only in and through Christ that this happens "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12).

Is it [the Gospel] all about salvation from hell and a guarantee from heaven? Really?

Would that not be a selfish attitude of men who make their own rewards to be received their primary goal in their walk with God? Is that walk with God?

If we seek first the kingdom of God and God's righteousness [Matt 6:33]... should not the Way be, "not as I will, but as thou wilt" [Matt 26:39], even though that might mean the need for painful suffering and death?

There may indeed be rewards as it is written, but is it not a selfish to make them our primary goal? Was not Jesus rather always on a selfless walk and purpose?