Mixing Old Covenant and New Covenant

[marks]

Would anyone like to talk about doctrines that are commonly mixed between Old and New Covenants?

One that I seem to find regularly concerns forgiveness.

Jesus taught,

Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

And there are Christians who teach others that this rule governs Christians. That if you fail to forgive someone else, you're forgiveness will be revoked.

Clearly, Jesus said here that forgiveness from the heavenly Father depends on forgiving others.

Equally clearly, Paul gives God's teaching,

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 3:13 KJV
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

In the one place people are taught that to receive God's forgiveness, they must first give forgiveness to others. Failure to give forgiveness results in remaining unforgiven themself.

In the other place people are taught that having already received God's forgiveness, they are hereby admonished to give forgiveness to others.

In the one place, we do the work in order to optain the forgiveness. In the other place, we do the work having already obtained forgiveness.

Are you aware of other places where the two covenants become blended by some? Overturned?

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

Would anyone like to talk about doctrines that are commonly mixed between Old and New Covenants?

One that I seem to find regularly concerns forgiveness.

Jesus taught,

Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

And there are Christians who teach others that this rule governs Christians. That if you fail to forgive someone else, you're forgiveness will be revoked.

Clearly, Jesus said here that forgiveness from the heavenly Father depends on forgiving others.

Equally clearly, Paul gives God's teaching,

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 3:13 KJV
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

In the one place people are taught that to receive God's forgiveness, they must first give forgiveness to others. Failure to give forgiveness results in remaining unforgiven themself.

In the other place people are taught that having already received God's forgiveness, they are hereby admonished to give forgiveness to others.

In the one place, we do the work in order to optain the forgiveness. In the other place, we do the work having already obtained forgiveness.

Are you aware of other places where the two covenants become blended by some? Overturned?

Much love!

Good questions Marks, I too have wondered at this. Since the ONLY unforgivable sin in scripture is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...which can be seen also as rejecting Christ, the verse in question cannot mean our salvation is contingent on always forgiving others but, we will pay one way or another if we do not. We won't lose our salvation.
Perhaps the forgiveness we are to extend to others is talking to how God will "measure" or "mete" out His judgement...Matt. 7:2 "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Then throw in the many and few stripes...?

 

[marks]

Good questions Marks, I too have wondered at this. Since the ONLY unforgivable sin in scripture is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...which can be seen also as rejecting Christ, the verse in question cannot mean our salvation is contingent on always forgiving others but, we will pay one way or another if we do not. We won't lose our salvation.
Perhaps the forgiveness we are to extend to others is talking to how God will "measure" or "mete" out His judgement...Matt. 7:2 "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Then throw in the many and few stripes...?

I think it's like Moses striking the Rock instead of speaking to it, that when we do not forgive others, we fail to show God's love outpouring in our hearts. First the Rock had to be struck, after, the Water comes freely for the asking.

Personally, I think we are sowing our lives as we do, and we shall reap the results of how we've sown. The Bible says we'll all stand judgment, that we will receive the good and bad done in the body.

What if the many and few stripes relate to the regrets we may experience when we realize all the good left undone, and all the bad done to the detriment of others? I know how deeply I feel this already, what about when the flesh and it's disguises are swept away, and I see the reality about myself from God's point of view! I shudder to think! And this is where I rest in His love.

I agree with you, we don't lose our salvation, as if we were in the covenant of "the one who does them will live by them".

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

I think it's like Moses striking the Rock instead of speaking to it, that when we do not forgive others, we fail to show God's love outpouring in our hearts. First the Rock had to be struck, after, the Water comes freely for the asking.

Personally, I think we are sowing our lives as we do, and we shall reap the results of how we've sown. The Bible says we'll all stand judgment, that we will receive the good and bad done in the body.

What if the many and few stripes relate to the regrets we may experience when we realize all the good left undone, and all the bad done to the detriment of others? I know how deeply I feel this already, what about when the flesh and it's disguises are swept away, and I see the reality about myself from God's point of view! I shudder to think! And this is where I rest in His love.

I agree with you, we don't lose our salvation, as if we were in the covenant of "the one who does them will live by them".

Much love!

Oh yes indeed, I too shudder at what the few and many stripes signify..I think you may be correct. Certain things we might have done AFTER conversion still have to be payed for even though we are forgiven if we ask Jesus. I will look like a zebra I think.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Would anyone like to talk about doctrines that are commonly mixed between Old and New Covenants?

One that I seem to find regularly concerns forgiveness.

Jesus taught,

Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

And there are Christians who teach others that this rule governs Christians. That if you fail to forgive someone else, you're forgiveness will be revoked.

Clearly, Jesus said here that forgiveness from the heavenly Father depends on forgiving others.

Equally clearly, Paul gives God's teaching,

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 3:13 KJV
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

In the one place people are taught that to receive God's forgiveness, they must first give forgiveness to others. Failure to give forgiveness results in remaining unforgiven themself.

In the other place people are taught that having already received God's forgiveness, they are hereby admonished to give forgiveness to others.

In the one place, we do the work in order to optain the forgiveness. In the other place, we do the work having already obtained forgiveness.

Are you aware of other places where the two covenants become blended by some? Overturned?

Much love!

Matthew 6:14-15 is talking about trespasses, not sins of lawlessness. There is a difference. Trespasses are sins NOT unto death.

If a serial killer kills your family and never repents, are we to forgive them even though God doesn't? Are we to be better than God?

 

[marks]

Matthew 6:14-15 is talking about trespasses, not sins of lawlessness. There is a difference. Trespasses are sins NOT unto death.

If a serial killer kills your family and never repents, are we to forgive them even though God doesn't? Are we to be better than God?

Do you see the distinction between these different passages? Where Jesus is teaching that to be forgiven by God one must forgive others, compared to forgiving others Because we've been forgiven by God? How one is reversed from the other?

From what I can see in this passage, there is no distinction between one "kind" of sin from another "kind" of sin, only, To be "forgiven" you must "forgive" others. That would introduce a distinction that Jesus didn't make.

As far as whether you are to forgive a murderer, I'd go back to,

Ephesians 4:31-32 KJV
31) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 3:12-13 KJV
12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

It's not being "better than God" to forgive others as He's forgiven you. And the one filled with hatred for others needs that forgiveness the same as one who murders others.

Much love!