I need help finding it

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RichardBurger

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Can you find it for me?

Many say that the gospel of grace that Paul preached was just a continuation of what Jesus and the 12 preached. Okay, perhaps some of them can help me.

No where do I find any reference in the first 4 books of the N.T. and/or the book of Acts where Jesus and the 12 said that salvation was now under grace and not the Law of Moses. -- No where can I find Jesus rescinding the Law of Moses. --- No where can I find the 12 preaching that the cross was a good thing.

If it is in the first 4 books of the N.T. and/or the book of Acts can you all help me find it?
 

Lively Stone

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Acts 14:3
But the apostles stayed there a long time, preaching boldly about the grace of the Lord. And the Lord proved their message was true by giving them power to do miraculous signs and wonders.


Paul added this:

Acts 15:11
We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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No where do I find any reference in the first 4 books of the N.T. and/or the book of Acts where Jesus and the 12 said that salvation was now under grace and not the Law of Moses. -- No where can I find Jesus rescinding the Law of Moses. --- No where can I find the 12 preaching that the cross was a good thing.

By saying Law of Moses, are you referring to just the 10 commandments, or all governing issues he documented?

Aslo, do yo think the cross is for the house of Israel?
 

RichardBurger

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Acts 14:3
But the apostles stayed there a long time, preaching boldly about the grace of the Lord. And the Lord proved their message was true by giving them power to do miraculous signs and wonders.


Paul added this:

Acts 15:11
We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 14:3
3 Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
NKJV

Acts 14: 3 is about Paul, not the 12. Paul stayed and taught.

Acts 15:11
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
NKJV

The problem for me is that only Paul said anything about the cross or the shed blood of Jesus. The word grace is definded by the context in which it appears. I can say that my wife is full of grace because she is such a loving person.

All I see in the first 4 books on the N.T. and the book of Acts is that Jesus was in the world to setup the Kingdom of the Jews as was promised in the Abrahamic covenant and by the prophets. Jesus say He only came to the house of Israel.

What I do see is that in Acts 21 James and the elders were still teaching the Law of Moses still applies for the believing Jews.
 

Lively Stone

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Acts 14:3
3 Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
NKJV

Acts 14: 3 is about Paul, not the 12. Paul stayed and taught.

The apostles were the disciples.

Acts 15:11
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
NKJV

The problem for me is that only Paul said anything about the cross or the shed blood of Jesus. The word grace is definded by the context in which it appears. I can say that my wife is full of grace because she is such a loving person.

It was Peter who was speaking at the meeting of the apostles in Acts 15 and he declared just what they believe about the grace of God and that is what they preached.

All I see in the first 4 books on the N.T. and the book of Acts is that Jesus was in the world to setup the Kingdom of the Jews as was promised in the Abrahamic covenant and by the prophets. Jesus say He only came to the house of Israel.

What I do see is that in Acts 21 James and the elders were still teaching the Law of Moses still applies for the believing Jews.

Jesus came to the Jew first, and then He opened up the Kingdom to the Gentile and used Peter to open the way for His message of salvation to go forth to them. The Gentile is not required to follow the Law of Moses. The Jewish believers were still incorporating the Law in with their receipt of God's salvation by grace through Jesus Christ. It was early days, yet.


James and the elders were in full agreement with Paul about what to teach Gentiles regarding Judaism:

25“As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”



Maybe I don't understand what you are having trouble with.
 

RichardBurger

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The apostles were the disciples.



It was Peter who was speaking at the meeting of the apostles in Acts 15 and he declared just what they believe about the grace of God and that is what they preached.



Jesus came to the Jew first, and then He opened up the Kingdom to the Gentile and used Peter to open the way for His message of salvation to go forth to them. The Gentile is not required to follow the Law of Moses. The Jewish believers were still incorporating the Law in with their receipt of God's salvation by grace through Jesus Christ. It was early days, yet.


James and the elders were in full agreement with Paul about what to teach Gentiles regarding Judaism:

25“As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”



Maybe I don't understand what you are having trouble with.

If it were not for Paul's teaching the gospel that the work of Jesus on the cross, His shed blood pays for our sins and saves us, we would not have any teaching about salvation by the grace of God because I certainly don't see it taught in the first 4 books of the N.T. nor do I see it in the activitives of Peter in the book of Acts.
 

Lively Stone

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If it were not for Paul's teaching the gospel that the work of Jesus on the cross, His shed blood pays for our sins and saves us, we would not have any teaching about salvation by the grace of God because I certainly don't see it taught in the first 4 books of the N.T. nor do I see it in the activitives of Peter in the book of Acts.

I have already shown that all the disciples and apostles were teaching and preaching about salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross, through God's great grace. Acts is about what the disciples and apostles did to branch out and spread the message and to plant churches. The epistles are where you will find what was actually preached as THE message, because they are letters to the existing churches that were formed.

Acts 4:12
There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved

Acts 13:26
“Brothers—you sons of Abraham, and also you God-fearing Gentiles—this message of salvation has been sent to us!

Acts 13:47
For the Lord gave us this command when he said, ‘I have made you a light to the Gentiles, to bring salvation to the farthest corners of the earth.’ ”

Acts 28:28
So I want you to know that this salvation from God has also been offered to the Gentiles, and they will accept it.”
 

veteran

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This is more of that 'double-gospel' doctrine of men like C.R. Stam that Richard is on. It's a false doctrine that holds only to Paul's Epistles as being for the Gentiles.

Here's a pretty good link if you want to understand the docrine of where those like Richard is coming from:

http://cicministry.o...ry/issue108.htm

Here's a tidbit...

"Are the Teachings of Jesus Binding on the Church?

Hyperdispensationalists claim that Jesus presented to the Jews an offer of a kingdom that He would have instituted during the first advent—had they accepted. They further teach that the twelve apostles continued this offer after Jesus' resurrection and ascension. It was eventually withdrawn, they say, after it was clear that the Jews were not going to accept the offer. Hyperdispensationalist C. R. Stam claims the offer was withdrawn at the end of Acts: "The offer of the kingdom, made at Pentecost, was not officially withdrawn until Acts 28:28. After that time, Jews and Gentiles alike are offered salvation by grace.
Hyperdispenstionalists claim that Jesus' teachings were the terms that would have been in effect had the Jews accepted the offer of the kingdom. Those terms were still valid as long as the offer was valid. After that they have no importance to the church and are not binding.

They do not claim the gospels are not canonical, but that the teachings therein are not authoritative for the church unless they contain some principles that would transcend any given dispensation, much like we would use Leviticus. Hyperdispensationalists believe that the only revelation binding on the church is that which was given to Paul.

They also have a very different idea about the church itself. For example, when Jesus said, "On this rock I will build My church," he supposedly was not speaking of the church (i.e., the body of Christ) but a Jewish "church" that only existed for a while until the middle of Acts. This means that the church we are in is not what Jesus called "My church."

For example, Stam claims that we could easily solve the problem of Rome claiming Peter as the first pope if we were to realize that the church Jesus referred to as "My church" in Matthew 16:18 does not now exist on earth:" (Bob DeWaay per that above link).

In more simple terms, the doctrine of hyper-dispensationalism (from some of Bullinger's concepts, a 19th century Christian scholar), believes there are TWO Gospels, one for Jews and another one for Gentiles. It is a direct attempt to divide Christ's True Church of both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles as one body (a specific Church doctrine that Apostle Paul himself taught).

Paul taught the same Gospel which all of Christ's Apostles taught, with one difference. Paul was specifically chosen by our Lord Jesus to take His Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15).

Paul also... preached the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gentiles (2 Thess.1:5; 1 Thess.2:12; Col.1:13; Eph.5:5; Acts 28:30-31, and many other NT examples in Paul's Epistles). Thus, the hyper-dispensationalist's doctrines are actually very easy to refute Scripture-wise.


Irregardless of when that false doctrine started, what could be its purpose, what kind of confusion can it produce?


For one, it causes division of Christ's many-membered Body, His Church here on earth.

Secondly and foremost, it's a setup to lead a believer away from many warnings and commands our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave for His New Testament Church of today, and all the way leading up to the return of our Lord Jesus.

For the deeper Bible student, heeding even Paul's admonition to study all of God's Word, including the Old Testament as "ensamples" for us upon whom the end of the world is come (1 Cor.10), it means to NOT DO JUST WHAT PAUL HIMSELF TOLD US TO DO!

The hyper-dispensationalist doctrine as a whole, is to aid deceived Gentile believers into being more greatly deceived, simply by denying the majority of God's Truth in His Word as applying only to Israel, and not Gentiles also.

And apparently, that's exactly what a lot of believers want today, an easy doctrine to latch onto that tells them they don't need to study God's Word, but to just believe and that's it. Such false ideas align perfectly with Darby's rapturist ideas (which Bullinger believed by the way), and the 'Once Saved, Always Saved' idea of men.

The reality of that doctrine is the same kind of working by the workers of iniquity of old, especially those of the pagan priest castes of ancient history. They would hide the truth from the masses in order to GET POWER over them, to rule over them, steal their money, just like organized criminals. Our Lord Jesus warned us about the leaven traditions of men, as all the Apostles did, including Apostle Paul.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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This is more of that 'double-gospel' doctrine of men like C.R. Stam that Richard is on. It's a false doctrine that holds only to Paul's Epistles as being for the Gentiles.

If what you say about Richard is true, he is a false witness of God and accursed per Galatians 1:8-9.
 

RichardBurger

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If what you say about Richard is true, he is a false witness of God and accursed per Galatians 1:8-9.

So, because I do not believe Jesus and the 12 taught the same gospel Paul taught I am accursed. I teach the gospel that Paul taught, salvation by the work of Jesus on the the cross; that His blood reconciles us to God. -- To some that is not the truth. A person has to work for their salvation.

It was Paul who said "if anyone teach any other gospel than the one I teach let him be accursed". To mix law with grace is an abomination.

Jesus never rescinded the Law of Moses nor did the 12. No one has, or can, show where they did.

Therefore the message of Jesus and the 12 that Jesus was the Jew’s messiah and king and they rejected Him.

But the 12 also taught that it was not too late for the Jews to accept Him and if they did He would have returned to set up their kingdom.

I have honestly asked for anyone to show where Jesus and the 12 taught that the cross was God's work to save mankind. -- No one can so they turn on me as a false teacher. -- They can't see that they have the same spirit of Satan that the Pharisees had when the accused Jesus in the same way.

Stop being lazy, check it out. Show where Jesus said we are no longer under the Law of Moses. --- Show where the 12 said the Jews are no longer under the Law of Moses.

But Paul said no one is under the Law of Moses any longer. Under the gospel of grace, that was given to Paul by Jesus, trying to keep the Law of Moses will cause a person to fall from grace.

You can’t mix law and grace. Jesus and the 12 taught the Law of Moses. Paul taught the gospel of grace.

But it is much easier to just accuse me of false teaching than to actually study the scriptures to see if what I have said is true.

Show where Jesus and the 12 rescinded the Law of Moses and stop the BS.

Jesus and the 12 (or 11) taught the gospel of the Abrahamic Covenant. A covenant to which the law was added (Gal 3:16-19). The law failed because of " its weakness and unprofitable-ness" It was "unprofitable" because of the weakness of men. Men could not live up to the standards of God's perfect laws. But Jesus did and He did it for us.

Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began. Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known.

Notice that Peter proclaimed the crucifixion of Jesus as something for the Jews to repent of (Acts 2) where Paul proclaimed that he gloried in the cross of Christ (Gal 6:11-15).

How can anyone say that Peter is teaching salvation by the cross work of Jesus when he sees the cross as something to be ashamed of???
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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You proclaim two different gospels; therefore per Galatians 1:8-9 you stand in danger of being accursed. Your unbelieving heart and rationalizations are your problem.
 

Lively Stone

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So, because I do not believe Jesus and the 12 taught the same gospel Paul taught I am accursed. I teach the gospel that Paul taught, salvation by the work of Jesus on the the cross; that His blood reconciles us to God.

What Jesus taught IS the Gospel. Because Jesus called Paul and taught Him everything he knew, Paul preaches what Jesus taught also. Why would you teach a gospel that Paul teaches, thinking that he disagrees with Jesus? If I thought someone disagreed with Jesus, I would set that one aside---not Jesus Christ.

-- To some that is not the truth. A person has to work for their salvation.

That is not what the word of God teaches anywhere. If anyone believes we must work for our salvation then Jesus is not the Saviour. We become our own saviours...which is a false message.
 

RichardBurger

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Jesus taught the Kingdom of God.

Yes He did but it was the kingdom on this earth that was promised in the Abrahamic covenant. Jesus came to set up this promised kingdom but the Jews rejected Him and He didn't set it up. Instead, He reached out to the Gentiles through Paul.
 

RichardBurger

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What Jesus taught IS the Gospel. Because Jesus called Paul and taught Him everything he knew, Paul preaches what Jesus taught also. Why would you teach a gospel that Paul teaches, thinking that he disagrees with Jesus? If I thought someone disagreed with Jesus, I would set that one aside---not Jesus Christ.

That is why you refuse to understand the gospel of grace that was Paul's gospel. You insist that what Jesus said to the Jews, He said to the Gentiles, and that is not the truth. Jesus said that He only came to the lost sheep of Israel and the religious will not believe He said it. They say He didn't really mean it.

That is what this thread is about, Jesus never taught that the Law of Moses was no longer in effect because while He was on the earth it was still in effect. However, under the gospel of grace given to Paul, by Jesus, the law has been set aside. The religious will never see this because they refuse to see it.

No where do we see Peter teaching that the Law of Moses has been set aside. -- I have asked where, in the scriptures, Jesus and or the 12 ever taught that the Law of Moses had been set aside and that now a person is saved by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. No one has done that and they can't because it is not in the first 4 books of the N.T. or the teaching of Peter in the book of Acts.

What is evident in these books is that Jesus was telling the Jews He was their Messiah and king and proving it by signs, wonders, and fullfilling all the prophesies about Him. What Peter and Stephens were doing is trying to get the Jews to understand that Jesus was their Messiah and they had crucified Him.

Don't take my word for it. Look for it in the scriptures, it's all there. But the religious will not look.

That is not what the word of God teaches anywhere. If anyone believes we must work for our salvation then Jesus is not the Saviour. We become our own saviours...which is a false message.

I agree but try telling that to the religious and you will be accussed of being lazy and that you owe it to Jesus to do works.

Jesus didn't come to set up any physical kingdom, but came to establish the spiritual kingdom in men's hearts. His physical kingdom is to follow.

Jesus came preaching the "kingdom at Hand" gospel. The Jews knew it as the physical promised kingdom on this earth.

A physical kingdom has not been promised to the Gentiles.

You really must read the Abrahamic covenant. It is obvious that you will not accept the fact that what God promises He will do, He will do. No where in the O.T. do we see a spiritual kingdom promised to Israel.
 

Lively Stone

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That is why you refuse to understand the gospel of grace that was Paul's gospel. You insist that what Jesus said to the Jews, He said to the Gentiles, and that is not the truth. Jesus said that He only came to the lost sheep of Israel and the religious will not believe He said it. They say He didn't really mean it.

That is what this thread is about, Jesus never taught that the Law of Moses was no longer in effect because while He was on the earth it was still in effect. However, under the gospel of grace given to Paul, by Jesus, the law has been set aside. The religious will never see this because they refuse to see it.

No where do we see Peter teaching that the Law of Moses has been set aside. -- I have asked where, in the scriptures, Jesus and or the 12 ever taught that the Law of Moses had been set aside and that now a person is saved by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. No one has done that and they can't because it is not in the first 4 books of the N.T. or the teaching of Peter in the book of Acts.

What is evident in these books is that Jesus was telling the Jews He was their Messiah and king and proving it by signs, wonders, and fullfilling all the prophesies about Him. What Peter and Stephens were doing is trying to get the Jews to understand that Jesus was their Messiah and they had crucified Him.

Don't take my word for it. Look for it in the scriptures, it's all there. But the religious will not look.

I agree with you, but I don't understand what your argument is. Of course I understand the gospel of Grace...I am a recipient of that very Grace.

I agree but try telling that to the religious and you will be accussed of being lazy and that you owe it to Jesus to do works.

I do teach that, and yes, a few who believe they must work for their salvation are deluded enough to argue that point, but it rolls off a duck's back.

Jesus came preaching the "kingdom at Hand" gospel. The Jews knew it as the physical promised kingdom on this earth.

A physical kingdom has not been promised to the Gentiles.

You really must read the Abrahamic covenant. It is obvious that you will not accept the fact that what God promises He will do, He will do. No where in the O.T. do we see a spiritual kingdom promised to Israel.

Yes, Jesus came with that very message. He is the 'Kingdom at hand'. The Jews thought He meant a physical kingdom. That physical kingdom is still an outstanding promise that we will see yet. It is both a physical and a spiritual kingdom, praise God! It is the inheritance of all who are in Christ.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Yes He did but it was the kingdom on this earth that was promised in the Abrahamic covenant. Jesus came to set up this promised kingdom but the Jews rejected Him and He didn't set it up. Instead, He reached out to the Gentiles through Paul.

Jesus set up what he came to set up. You make God out to be an inept fool. God never promised a physical kingdom, as you contend, but rather condemned a request for such as a rejection of himself, and considered those who desired such a thing to be idolators (much like yourself):

Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 1 Samuel 8:4-8
 

RichardBurger

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Jesus set up what he came to set up. You make God out to be an inept fool. God never promised a physical kingdom, as you contend, but rather condemned a request for such as a rejection of himself, and considered those who desired such a thing to be idolators (much like yourself):

(much like yourself)

And we are to believe you, a person who makes such accusations against another. You sure know how to love others don't you.

You have missed the truth about the physical kingdom for the Jews.

But I wil not be-little you. You can believe what ever you wish.
 

Episkopos

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Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.