"As a Thief in the Night"

[Johann]

Dear Johann,
Scripture is written in a "mystery" and in Christ's spiritual language. It's meaning is "veiled" from everyone except believers who have been converted. When a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the conversion point) Christ heals their spiritual blindness. The truth of Christ will then open up to them from scripture. With their new "eyes that can see", Christ will appear to them

I digress, Scriptures is an open book and easy to understand through the indwelling Holy Spirit, nothing mysterious about it, no mystery "mysticism" and even a child can understand it
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Mat_28:19; Act_4:12; Php_2:9-11; Rev_19:12-13
1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

The gospel right here, no "mystery"

When Christ comes to the believer to give them the Latter Rain, they are in a "fallen away" spiritual condition and are walking in darkness (night). This is what it is meant when scripture says that Christ will come as a thief in the night. After Christ appears, He will bring judgment to the believer's false beliefs and carnality. This is "sudden destruction". As for the woman who is in travail, she represents the freewoman who is about to give birth to the new child of God.

Hmm, don't know what you are getting at, no scriptures, chapter and verses, and we are called to rightly cutting straight the Scriptures....Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Alarm bells sounding on the "Latter rain"
J.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hmm, don't know what you are getting at, no scriptures, chapter and verses, and we are called to rightly cutting straight the Scriptures....Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Alarm bells sounding on the "Latter rain"
J.

Dear Johann,
Here is what scripture says on the hidden nature of Christ's truth:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spoke he not unto them:

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of the physical Word of God which was written on tablets of stone and scrolls of paper. Since Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of the Word of God, He is the Word of God. As such, Christ not only teaches us through what He said but also by the events which are recorded in scripture.

For most people, it is easy to understand that the parables contain hidden spiritual messages. But since Christ is the Word of God, all of His teachings, either by word or deed, are also spiritual messages to those who have been blessed and have had their spiritual blindness healed (Mat 20:34).

Because Christ’s words are spirit, we must learn the spiritual language of Christ in order to understand God’s Word. I can’t stress this point enough.

I’ll demonstrate how to understand Christ’s spiritual language with this simple example:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.

Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

The spiritual language of the Word of God utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages. However, Christ assigns meanings to the Hebrew and Greek words which are different from how they are commonly defined:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.

Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out”), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

This conversion event is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of FIRE, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the HOLY SPIRIT, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In the spiritual language of Christ, the Apostles took up the Sword and then died by the SWORD.

In light of what I presented above, do you understand what this verse below is teaching?

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Like the other verses I’ve presented, this verse above is teaching about the conversion event. And like the other verses, its message is hidden in the spiritual language of Christ. The “many” who are “slain of the Lord” is referring to the people who have just been converted & saved.

Spiritual understanding of scripture is further explained and expanded by Isa 28:10-12:

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER LANGUAGE will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Before a believer has their spiritual blindness healed, they will not be able to understand the spiritual teachings of the Word of God. This lack of understanding will cause them to “fall backward and be broken”.

CONTINED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hmm, don't know what you are getting at, no scriptures, chapter and verses, and we are called to rightly cutting straight the Scriptures....Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Alarm bells sounding on the "Latter rain"
J.

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST...

Paul discusses this same subject below:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In short, to “fall away” means to leave Grace through Faith and attempt to be acceptable to Christ by “works”. When a believer makes this attempt, they cannot be renewed by repentance. It is at that point that they have committed the sin that leads to death and have lost their salvation (1John 5:16). Losing one’s salvation is the same as to “fall backward and be broken”.

The truth of Christ is also presented to us “here a little, and there a little”. Because of such, we must assemble the pieces of truth before the whole truth of a matter can be understood. Once assembled, each piece of truth must then be added to the other pieces “line upon line and precept upon precept” so that the knowledge of God can be found. When found, it is like finding hidden treasure:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Have you ever wondered why there are so many different denominational churches in the world? The answer lies in what I have presented above.

To understand God’s Word, Christ must first give us a love for the truth, so much so that we are willing to give up all our carnal beliefs so that we can obtain the truth of Christ. We also need to realize that scripture is written in Christ’s spiritual language. His language utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages, however, many of those words carry meanings which are different from what “man’s wisdom teaches”. Christ’s words are spirit and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We are NOT to look out into the world for their meanings as so many people do. We are to also keep in mind that the truth of Christ in scripture is given “here a little and there a little”. Each piece must be assembled and stacked “line upon line” and “precept upon precept”. Then, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the hidden treasure of Christ will be revealed.

For those who have been given eyes that can see and ears that can hear, Christ is appearing to them and revealing Himself. They are finding great treasure!

Johann said:
Hmm, don't know what you are getting at, no scriptures, chapter and verses, and we are called to rightly cutting straight the Scriptures....Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Alarm bells sounding on the "Latter rain"

The Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit is frequently presented in scripture but it is very "veiled" by the spiritual language of Christ. I could give you many examples but I will only present two at this time

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 15 Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In the two verses, Paul mentions both the Early and Latter Rain. The Holy Spirit of Promise is the Early Rain. It is what Christ gives an unbeliever when He calls them out from the world. This is the moment the new believer enters the church. The Early Rain they receive does not heal their spiritual blindness but it does give them a "down payment" of the Holy Spirit and a measure of faith.

The Latter Rain of the Spirit is mentioned by the phrase "redemption of the purchased possession". The time of redemption is the moment of salvation when a person is redeemed:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind are the only ones who are going to be saved (redeemed) in this present age. They are converted Elect believers.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

An Elect believer is "sealed" when they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit of Promise. The Day of Redemption occurs when Christ "comes again" and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit like He did for the Apostles. Before the Latter Rain arrives, the believer will "fall away" and "grieve" the Spirit within them.

At the time Paul wrote this statement, the spirit of anti-Christ had not yet fallen upon the church. However, after Paul's departing, grievous wolves came into the church and they did not spare any of the flock.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

John re-enforced this truth when he later said:

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Shortly after the Apostles started their churches, the spirit of anti-Christ came and ravaged them. Nothing has changed since that time. Because of the apostasy (2Thes 2:3), the church has been walking in darkness (night) ever since. The only hope for a believer in the church is for the Latter Rain to fall upon them. For the Elect, Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is their Day of Redemption. With the Latter Rain, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed which will cause Christ to "appear" to them in scripture. This appearing of Christ will bring judgment (Day of the Lord) to them which will quickly destroy the believer's false beliefs and carnality (sudden destruction).

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hmm, don't know what you are getting at, no scriptures, chapter and verses, and we are called to rightly cutting straight the Scriptures....Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Alarm bells sounding on the "Latter rain"
J.

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

Here is a second example where Christ teaches about the Early and Latter Rain as it applies to the healing of a believer's spiritual blindness:

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on the spiritual language of God's Word - His language. At this point in time (before they were converted at Pentecost), the disciples had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and because of such, they were still spiritually blind. They had been called out from the world (as was the whole Nation of Israel), but they still could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”?

No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, Christ goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in type by the healing of a blind man. This type is the same type which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.

In verse 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. Christ does not have to tell the blind man to look down, the blind man just does it naturally. The spit (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This event represents the time when an unbeliever is called out from the world and enters the church. After Christ asks the man what he could see, the man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as Trees" is a spiritual symbol for called out believers who walk by sight rather than by faith. At this point, the blind man is a type of a called out believer. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted.

This first healing of the blind man reflects the true spiritual condition of a new believer when they first enter the church. At that time, they are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. They can see a little but that only opens the door to Satan's deceptions - deceptions which each new believer readily accepts due to their carnal nature still being in control of them.

Peter says this near-sighted condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again, but as He does, Christ has the man look up instead of down. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents the spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we now know that the blind man is a type of a called and chosen believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rain. He has been given eyes that can see. From his new ability to understand God's Word, he will then come out from Satan's deceptions and will begin walking by faith. He will be included in the resurrection of the First Fruits and will receive life during the ages.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

For those who were not chosen and given eyes that can see, they will go away to judgment and will suffer loss but by the end of that age, they too "shall be saved, yet so by fire":

1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abides which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1 Thes. 4:15-17 is the classic passage quoted by those who believe in the rapture. The Greek word translated "coming" in verse 15, as in Matt. 24:37-39, is parousia, meaning presence; it covers the first, or secret stage of our Lord's Second Advent, when the world is in ignorance respecting His Second Advent and going about the ordinary affairs of life, prior to the second stage, His epiphaneia (bright shining, manifestation), or apokalupsis (uncovering, revelation), and the third stage, His basileia (Kingdom).

This is a classic example of what Jesus warned about in Matt. 24:

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Paruosia does mean presence. but presence is either a proximate or relative presence. Context determines the closeness.

There are no two phases of jesus return. There is only one return which is described in Rev. 19.

Of course, nothing in this text indicates that the saints remaining over to the time of the Lord's Second Coming would die; nor does anything in it teach that their human bodies would not die. This Scripture does not mention what change they would undergo before being joined to the Lord; in fact, a change is not mentioned here at all. But the same Apostle elsewhere informs us that a change would take place, because "flesh and blood"—human nature, human bodies—cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50)—therefore the saints would all be changed to spirit bodies, which are invisible to men's human eyes, and can come and go as the wind (John 3:8).

That is hyper parsing. A simple reading is simply this:
1. The dead in Jesus rise from teh grave (physical body to be glorified)
2. we which are living then will be snatched up to meet the Lord in teh air.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The promises were made to spiritual Israel:

You need to go back and read the Old Testament. there are numerous promises made to the nation of Israel which god will fulfill. The most classic of the many is this:

Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is to all Jews, not just saved jews. If you wish I can give you a list of many more promises God will fulfill to Israel. He will save teh whole nation at one point in the futrure. that is not only declared in Ez. but confirmed by Paul in Romans 11.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

My mistake. Sorry. The point I wanted to make is that the bowls are wrath, not tribulation. They are called vials of wrath in (verse 1)

Well they are vials of Gods wrath poured out during THE tribulation ( that specific 7 year period).

And the battle of Armageddon does not begin until after the 6th bowl is poured out and not before as you contend.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You need to go back and read the Old Testament. there are numerous promises made to the nation of Israel which god will fulfill. The most classic of the many is this:

Jeremiah 31:31-34​

​

King James Version​

​

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is to all Jews, not just saved jews. If you wish I can give you a list of many more promises God will fulfill to Israel. He will save teh whole nation at one point in the futrure. that is not only declared in Ez. but confirmed by Paul in Romans 11.

Dear Mr. Nolette,
Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and this certainly includes the Nation of Israel (as the verses you quoted say).

However, the "promise" (Rom 4:13) which I quoted earlier pertains only to being the "heir". The heirs are the First Fruits of the Christ's harvest of mankind. They are the only ones who are being saved by Christ in this present age. They were chosen from the foundation of the world and Christ is now working to save each and every one of them. They are considered "blessed" by God. They will receive life during the ages and will rule and reign with Christ as kings and priests in the final age to bring in the remaining harvest of mankind.

However, the Nation of Israel will largely be excluded from this blessing of being Heirs/First Fruits. The Nation of Israel will be the last group to be saved in the final age as Paul teaches below:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

In the final age, after the last of the Gentiles have been saved, Christ will have mercy upon the Nation of Israel and will pour out the Early and Latter Rains upon them. A detailed teaching on this time period is taught in Joel chapter 2.

The chapter begins with Christ and his armies (the Elect) bringing judgment to the lost of the final age. It ends with this happening:

Joel 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. 19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn (truth), and wine (New Covenant), and oil (anointing of the Holy Spirit), and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. 21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the Early Rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the Early Rain, and the Latter Rain in the first month....27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

This is the same salvation which Christ alluded to when He spoke to the chief priests and elders below:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

The salvation of the chief priests and elders (the very same persons who crucified Christ) was never in doubt with Christ. However, they will not be heirs/First Fruits nor will they taste Christ's marriage supper:

Luke 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men (leaders of the Nation of Israel) which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

They will be saved at the "consummation" (1Cor 15:24) which occurs at the very end of the final age. They will not be blessed to receive life during the ages - but they will receive life in the Kingdom of Heaven at the end.

Jesus Christ was sent by His Father to save mankind:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

When the end of the final age (due time) comes, this statement below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

At this time (typed by the Feast of Tabernacles/the great ingathering), Christ will have fulfilled all the goals of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy which are listed in Dan 9:24:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to His Father and God will be "all in all".

1Cor 15:24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is the true Good News of Christ!

Joe

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well they are vials of Gods wrath poured out during THE tribulation ( that specific 7 year period).

And the battle of Armageddon does not begin until after the 6th bowl is poured out and not before as you contend.

As I see it, the GT is over by the Seventh Trumpet. But I could be wrong as you know.

 

[Pearl]

I'm rather surprised that there are so many threads speculating on Jesus return and the last days etc, when Jesus himself told us that nobody knows:
Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm rather surprised that there are so many threads speculating on Jesus return and the last days etc, when Jesus himself told us that nobody knows:
Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

That's right. But we can't help it. Speaking for myself, I have the "just can't wait's." That's the feeling I got as a child about a week or so before Christmas. I couldn't wait for Christmas Morning to see what gifts would be under the tree and in my stocking. Back then, I always had a feeling of excited anticipation and among us kids we talked about it all the time.

Even now, as a mature believer, I just can't wait until Jesus Returns and I excitedly anticipate his return. I know and agree with you. Unlike Christmas Eve, as a child I knew the day and the hour; but as you say, no one knows the day or the hour of his return. Nevertheless, Jesus wants me to remain alert and the best way to remain alert is to speak about it with fellow believers.

As I see it, the "thief in the night" metaphor describes the attitude of the believer, not the manner in which he will return. The focus of the metaphor is not on the thief, but on the homeowner who, had ne known when the thief would arrive, "he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into." Matthew 24:43. By analogy, each believer ought to anticipate the coming of Jesus like a homeowner anticipates the coming of a thief. But unlike the homeowner who secures his house against robbers; the believer must secure his or her heart against quitting or giving up.

Jesus tells a parable about 10 bridesmaids, 5 who were wise and 5 who were foolish. (Matthew 25) The analogy seeks to highlight the importance of being prepared for a very long delay of the bridegroom. In this case, Jesus recommends that in order to be ready for his return, rather than preparing for his return, we need to prepare OURSELVES for an extended delay. In the case of the thief, we are wise to prepare our house for the arrival of the thief, e.g. install a security system and install strong door and window locks. In the case of Jesus' return, on the other hand, he recommends that we prepare our hearts. Our hope and expectation need to be bolstered and firmed up, which is why we gather together for prayer and encouragement. We bolster each other and ourselves against giving up. [Keep the faith, don't stop believing, never lose heart, he will return.]

Have a blessed day.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The chapter begins with Christ and his armies (the Elect) bringing judgment to the lost of the final age. It ends with this happening:

Joel 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. 19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn (truth), and wine (New Covenant), and oil (anointing of the Holy Spirit), and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. 21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the Early Rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the Early Rain, and the Latter Rain in the first month....27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

The armies are not the elect.

And your redefining the things god will provide is wrong.

Luke 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men (leaders of the Nation of Israel) which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

They will be saved at the "consummation" (1Cor 15:24) which occurs at the very end of the final age. They will not be blessed to receive life during the ages - but they will receive life in the Kingdom of Heaven at the end.

Not sure what you mean here. I almost sounds like you are saying the unbelieving Jew will be saved at the end of time.

At this time (typed by the Feast of Tabernacles/the great ingathering), Christ will have fulfilled all the goals of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy which are listed in Dan 9:24:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy

Sorry but teh feast of tabernacles will be kept by the Gentiles during the millenial kingdom when Jesus reigns on earth

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As I see it, the GT is over by the Seventh Trumpet. But I could be wrong as you know.

Jesus made it clear the GT ends with His return. MAtt. 24 How can you see the vials which are the worst wrath, being poured out after Jesus returns and separates the sheep from the goats , judges the nations, and begins His earthly reign?

 

[FaithWillDo]

The armies are not the elect.

And your redefining the things god will provide is wrong.

Not sure what you mean here. I almost sounds like you are saying the unbelieving Jew will be saved at the end of time.

Sorry but teh feast of tabernacles will be kept by the Gentiles during the millenial kingdom when Jesus reigns on earth

Dear Mr. Nolette,

Point #1: The Elect are the armies of Christ. They are His kings and priests who will reign with Him in the final age. They are presented in Revelation chapter 19 and in Joel chapter 2.

Point #2: Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. If a believer doesn't believe the scriptures which teach this truth, they are operating under a "works" based belief system. In that system, it is taught that mankind must provide certain "works" to earn their salvation. Those who do not provide those certain "works" are cast into the fires of Hell for all eternity as a result. However, this system is completely untrue. Christ is the only one who does any work to save a person. And since He is the only one who does the "works", He will not fall to save everyone - including all the Jewish Nation who are presently rejecting Him. And as I pointed out earlier, only a "few" of the Jews are going to be saved in this age. They are the "heirs" and First Fruits who were chosen by Christ from the foundation of the world. Then, with the help of Christ's "armies" (the Heirs/Elect), the rest of mankind (includes the Jews) will be saved at the end of the final age.

Point #3: The Feast of Tabernacles is a spiritual "type" which is spiritually fulfilled at the end of the final age. It is fulfilled when Christ brings in the full harvest of mankind. Christ also "typed" this truth in this verse:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast (the Feast of Tabernacles), Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Also, there is no coming "millennial age" when Christ rules over this physical earth. After this present age ends, the bodily resurrections will occur. This event will begin the last and final age of time.

The 1,000 Reign of Christ is a spiritual symbol which represents the Day of the Lord (2Pet 3:8) when Christ and His armies judge the carnality out of mankind. In this age, the Elect believer (after they are converted) will ride with Christ in judgment over their own carnal nature and false beliefs (shown in Rev chapter 19). Once this judgment is completed within the Elect believer, they will be a fully matured son of God. This completes the First Resurrection (a spiritual resurrection, not the bodily one) for that particular believer. In this way, the Elect believer "keeps the sayings of the prophecy".

In the next and final age (shown in Joel chapter 2), the Elect will ride as kings and priests with Christ in judgment over the rest of mankind until they have "paid the last penny" (Luke 12:59, full destruction of their carnality). Once the last penny is paid, Christ will have mercy upon them and make the call shown in "type" by John 7:37 (quoted above). This is the same call shown in the verse below, however, in this verse, the Bride (the Elect, the armies) is added:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

After this call is made, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them (Joel 2:23). This event is what the Feast of Tabernacles represents.

Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the First Fruits (the Elect) of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering (the Feast of Tabernacles), which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

The armies are not the elect.

And your redefining the things god will provide is wrong.

Not sure what you mean here. I almost sounds like you are saying the unbelieving Jew will be saved at the end of time.

Sorry but teh feast of tabernacles will be kept by the Gentiles during the millenial kingdom when Jesus reigns on earth

Dear Mr. Nolette,

Do you understand why you and I have such a different understanding of scripture?

Our difference of understanding is caused by us being on a different portion of the Pathway to Salvation. I'll try to explain below.

Do you understand what this one verse parable means?

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Understanding this parable is very important. The "woman" in the verse represents mankind's carnal nature who become the Great Harlot. It is through mankind's carnal nature that Satan devours the church. The leaven represents false teachings which ultimately come from Satan. The "three measures of meal" represents the truth of God's Word. The number "three" represents a "spiritual process". The spiritual process is one of "devolution".

Here is the meaning of the parable: After an unbeliever is given the Early Rain of the Spirit and is called out from the world, Satan will come to the new believer and deceive them through their carnal nature. The "leaven" which the woman "takes" is given to her by Satan. She then HIDES it is three measures of meal (truth of Christ). When the spiritual process is complete (the bread being fully leavened), the new believer will fall away and come under Satan's full influence. When this happens to a believer (and it always does), the believer will not even be aware of it because the "leaven" is HIDDEN in the loaf of bread they are consuming. And since the bread is fully leavened, the entire truth of Christ is mixed with false teachings. This is the apostasy which Paul mentioned would come upon the church. Because of the leavened bread the church consumes, none of what the church teaches is completely true. In fact, most of what the church teaches is completely false.

Christ re-stated this truth in the verses below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents Satan's false truth. Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) since their house remains void of the truth of Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within them, they now have EIGHT. The number EIGHT is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

John tells the church that the spirit of anti-Christ is coming and has in fact, already come:

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John also presents the spirit of anti-Christ as the False Prophet:

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev 19:20 And the Beast was taken, and with him the False Prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Paul calls the believer who has the indwelling spirit of anti-Christ the Man of Sin:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The spiritual process of becoming a Man of Sin happens to EVERYONE after they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit and enter the church.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The time period a believer spends as a Man of Sin is called the "Great Tribulation". If the believer is chosen by Christ to be one of His Elect, Christ will "come again" to the believer and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed and Christ will then "appear" to them through scripture. As Christ appears to the believer, the brightness of His appearing will destroy the Man of Sin (the believer's "worse than the first" spiritual condition).

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

After a believer's spiritual blindness is healed, the believer will experience a spiritual earthquake, thunder, lightning and trumpets. It is quite an event within the believer because their worldly paradigm is changing to the heavenly paradigm. With this change, the believer will understand the truth of scripture for the first time and they will find the treasure of God.

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Joe

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus made it clear the GT ends with His return. MAtt. 24 How can you see the vials which are the worst wrath, being poured out after Jesus returns and separates the sheep from the goats , judges the nations, and begins His earthly reign?

The Seventh Trump is comprised of the 7 bowls of wrath which begins with the coming of Jesus.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Point #1: The Elect are the armies of Christ. They are His kings and priests who will reign with Him in the final age. They are presented in Revelation chapter 19 and in Joel chapter 2.

The armies of heaven are the angels. sorry Jesus made that clear before Pilate and the disciples in the garden.

Point #3: The Feast of Tabernacles is a spiritual "type" which is spiritually fulfilled at the end of the final age. It is fulfilled when Christ brings in the full harvest of mankind. Christ also "typed" this truth in this verse:

Wrong it is fulfilled in the millenial kingdom when the representatives of every nation come to Jerusalem to do sacrifice!

Zechariah 14:16-19

King James Version

​

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Also, there is no coming "millennial age" when Christ rules over this physical earth. After this present age ends, the bodily resurrections will occur. This event will begin the last and final age of time.

The 1,000 Reign of Christ is a spiritual symbol which represents the Day of the Lord (2Pet 3:8) when Christ and His armies judge the carnality out of mankind. In this age, the Elect believer (after they are converted) will ride with Christ in judgment over their own carnal nature and false beliefs (shown in Rev chapter 19). Once this judgment is completed within the Elect believer, they will be a fully matured son of God. This completes the First Resurrection (a spiritual resurrection, not the bodily one) for that particular believer. In this way, the Elect believer "keeps the sayings of the prophecy".

Sorry but amillenialism is wrong. Teh bible is too full of prophesies concerning what happens when Messiah returns and reigns on earth.

YOu redefine and reinterpret the plain words of Scripture too much. Hundreds of others have redefined Scripture and given spiritual fulfilments that are different than yours. why are you right and they wrong? and why are you right and what God inspired the writers to declare wrong?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Here is the meaning of the parable: After an unbeliever is given the Early Rain of the Spirit and is called out from the world, Satan will come to the new believer and deceive them through their carnal nature. The "leaven" which the woman "takes" is given to her by Satan. She then HIDES it is three measures of meal (truth of Christ). When the spiritual process is complete (the bread being fully leavened), the new believer will fall away and come under Satan's full influence. When this happens to a believer (and it always does), the believer will not even be aware of it because the "leaven" is HIDDEN in the loaf of bread they are consuming. And since the bread is fully leavened, the entire truth of Christ is mixed with false teachings. This is the apostasy which Paul mentioned would come upon the church. Because of the leavened bread the church consumes, none of what the church teaches is completely true. In fact, most of what the church teaches is completely false.

Well you are part of the church so can we assume what you teach is completely false? what you teach falls under the blanket of covenant amillenial eschatology. which redefines so many passages of scripture with spiritual meaning.

I teach dispensational pretribulational eschatology which is the minority position in the believing churches.

Are you teaching here that a believer can lose their salvation?

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents Satan's false truth. Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) since their house remains void of the truth of Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within them, they now have EIGHT. The number EIGHT is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This is evil.

Paul calls the believer who has the indwelling spirit of anti-Christ the Man of Sin:

Sorry but this is an unbeliever. A BELIEVER CANNOT BE POSSESSED BY EVIL SPIRITS! eVER

The spiritual process of becoming a Man of Sin happens to EVERYONE after they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit and enter the church.

So you are becoming a man of sin then. OK!

The time period a believer spends as a Man of Sin is called the "Great Tribulation". If the believer is chosen by Christ to be one of His Elect, Christ will "come again" to the believer and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed and Christ will then "appear" to them through scripture. As Christ appears to the believer, the brightness of His appearing will destroy the Man of Sin (the believer's "worse than the first" spiritual condition).

YOu are in for a rude awakening. Yo uare teaching from teh revised word of faith will do and not from the delivered word of God! All this spiritualizing and redefining is putting you in grave grave danger!

2 Peter 3:15-17

King James Version

​

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Seventh Trump is comprised of the 7 bowls of wrath which begins with the coming of Jesus.

Not according to the Scripture.

Teh seven trumpets are unscrolled with the opening of the seventh seal, but the seven vials are not revealed by the sounding of the seventh trumpet. that is bad exegesis.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not according to the Scripture.

Teh seven trumpets are unscrolled with the opening of the seventh seal, but the seven vials are not revealed by the sounding of the seventh trumpet. that is bad exegesis.

I suppose, if one were to consider "bad exegesis" as "anything that isn't what I believe." Then I understand.