Arminianism, Calvinism, or Universal Restoration?

[Chadrho]

Universal Restoration includes major premises of Calvinism and Arminianism, while avoiding their flaws.

This breakdown is based on a sermon by Elhanan Winchester as found in A Larger Hope? by Robin Parry and Ilaria Ramelli (pg. 119)

1. God loves all
Calvinism- No
Arminianism- Yes
UR- Yes

2. The objects of God's love will come to salvation
Calvinism- Yes
Arminianism- No
UR- Yes

3. God desires all to be saved
Calvinism- No
Arminianism- Yes
UR- Yes

4. All God's purposes will be accomplished
Calvinism- Yes
Arminianism- No
UR- Yes

5. Christ dies for all
Calvinism- No
Arminianism- Yes
UR- Yes

6. All for whom Christ died will be saved (his blood was not shed in vain)
Calvinism- Yes
Arminianism- No
UR- Yes

Calvinists hold that God only loves some, that only some will be saved. In other words, God is unwilling to save all. Arminians hold that God loves all, but only some will be saved because human freedom will thwart God's will. In other words, God is unable to save all. Classical Universal Restoration (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, et al) asserts that God loves all, is willing to save all, and is able to bring all to salvation willingly. In other words, God is willing, God is able, and God will save all. The UR position is the more fitting account of God's love, will, and power.

Discuss!

 

[St. SteVen]

This breakdown is based on a sermon by Elhanan Winchester as found in A Larger Hope? by Robin Parry and Ilaria Ramelli (pg. 119)

Interesting... MOST interesting topic. Love the breakdown. Makes it very clear.
It illustrates well how the standard doctrines declare God as unwilling or unable to save all.

Unwilling violates His omniscience.
Unable violates His omnipotence.
Only UR fits His character.

 

[Chadrho]

Interesting... MOST interesting topic. Love the breakdown. Makes it very clear.
It illustrates well how the standard doctrines declare God as unwilling or unable to save all.

Unwilling violates His omniscience.
Unable violates His omnipotence.
Only UR fits His character.

Another interesting observation is that both the Calvinist and the Arminian believe they are faithfully interpreting scripture, and yet their respective positions are incompatible with each other. Obviously the UR proponent believes they are also interpreting scripture faithfully. So the common claim against UR that it doesn't take the "plain meaning" seriously is a non-starter. Everyone thinks their interpretation is correct. This is why it's helpful to see this breakdown because theologically UR is the better position, by far, in terms of the divine will, power, and love. The other two sacrifice one or the other to save eternal damnation, which is odd and takes away from the glory of God, frankly.

 

[St. SteVen]

The other two sacrifice one or the other to save eternal damnation...

Makes you wonder; who, or what, is actually being worshiped there?
Putting eternal damnation on a pedestal above God's will (omniscience) and ability (omnipotence).

 

[Chadrho]

Makes you wonder; who, or what, is actually being worshiped there?
Putting eternal damnation on a pedestal above God's will (omniscience) and ability (omnipotence).

I think the compelling power of the threat of eternal damnation was too tempting for the empire enabled church to pass up. Prior to the church's gaining political power (Constantine/Justinian), UR was common among many (pace Augustine), including significant figures, but it was jettisoned in favor of eternal damnation. I won't say it was a conspiratorial choice; it just made sense as a way to compel people to join. So, they sacrificed God's glory for their own power. And now folks think it's gospel.

 

[Wrangler]

Unwilling violates His omniscience.
Unable violates His omnipotence.
Only UR fits His character.

Hmmm, not quite. He is a living and just God. In the end, some people are not choosing to be saved.

 

[St. SteVen]

Hmmm, not quite. He is a living and just God. In the end, some people are not choosing to be saved.

Ultimately, I don't think we have a choice to make in the matter. Meaning...
The salvation of humankind is already accomplished. The last step is to come under the sovereignty of Christ.
Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge (confess) Jesus Christ as Lord.

 

[Wrangler]

Ultimately, I don't think we have a choice to make in the matter. Meaning...
The salvation of humankind is already accomplished. The last step is to come under the sovereignty of Christ.
Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge (confess) Jesus Christ as Lord.

Being under a sovereign does not mean that sovereign will save you. Hence, the 2nd death after Judgement of those who chose the path.


“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8

 

[St. SteVen]

Being under a sovereign does not mean that sovereign will save you. Hence, the 2nd death after Judgement of those who chose the path.


“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8

What does the sovereign want then? Loyalty is not enough?
How do you spell tyrant?

 

[Patrick1966]

Another interesting observation is that both the Calvinist and the Arminian believe they are faithfully interpreting scripture...

What happens when the "scripture" is corrupted and mistranslated?

 

[Patrick1966]

 

[Patrick1966]

I think the compelling power of the threat of eternal damnation was too tempting for the empire enabled church to pass up. Prior to the church's gaining political power (Constantine/Justinian), UR was common among many (pace Augustine), including significant figures, but it was jettisoned in favor of eternal damnation. I won't say it was a conspiratorial choice; it just made sense as a way to compel people to join. So, they sacrificed God's glory for their own power. And now folks think it's gospel.

Great post!

Based on man's love of money (who doesn't love money?) my guess is that the early church saw a way to cash in BIG on its followers. They began teaching that many people go to Hell or to purgatory but (Here's the good news!) that there was a way to guarantee NOT to go to those places, and that was by making a sizeable donation to the church!

Sound familiar?

 

[Patrick1966]

In the end, some people are not choosing to be saved.

Nope. In the end ALL will go to God because it is his will!

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

2 Samuel 14:14, ESV: We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

---

 

[Wrangler]

What does the sovereign want then? Loyalty is not enough?
How do you spell tyrant?

An extremely hate-filled, ego-centric response! Yes, God is a tyrant. It is his way or the highway. See Proverbs 14:12. Being a petulant servant is no way to win the favor of your lord. 'I'm loyal. What more does he want?!' Indeed. See Matthew 25:14-30.

Paul explains that everyone is a slave to whatever controls one's thinking. That escaping tyranny is an impossibility of the human condition. See Romans 6:16. The only question is, what do we choose to lord over us?

Freedom is a good means but a terrible end. What does the sovereign want? Everything. Everything in exchange for everything. He wants to be lord over us for our benefit. If you think you can buy the favor of the LORD by your virtue (loyalty), think again. Such thinking would make you the master of your own Creator. No, what is required on your part is Islam, submission. Only when you fully submit to his lordship might he spare you from what you deserve, death.

And I say might because universalism is not spelled out in Scripture as the way. That is why I mentioned the 2nd death in Revelation 21:8. IF universal salvation was the default, there would be no such thing as a 2nd death. If it were not this way, our Creator would not be a god worthy of worship. He is sovereign and we are subject to his sovereign will. That is why it is said at Proverbs 9:10 that fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

He also wants us to have a relationship with him that is loving. See the Sh'ma. His act of Creation was an act of love. His act to reconcile us to him through his son was an act of love. See John 3:16. It is the rebellious heart of man that balks at loving one who has absolute power over us. That is not the LORD's problem; it is our problem. Today's indoctrination of perverted equality is the Devil's work product. We are not equal to our Creator. Thinking that is the Original Sin.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus, Matthew 10:28

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:31

 

[Chadrho]

What happens when the "scripture" is corrupted and mistranslated?

The scriptures are the unique and authoritative witness to Jesus Christ. So long as they are coupled with the witness of the Holy Spirit, they are sufficient for the purpose of bringing us to faith in the eternal Word of God, Jesus Christ. They need not be perfect or without error to serve their function, and, in fact, they are not perfect or without error. This, too, is an act of grace. If they were perfect, then there would be two perfect Beings, i.e. God and a book. Of course, that's painfully absurd. God has ensured the scriptures' sufficiency without ensuring their perfection lest we worship the book and commit idolatry.

Practically speaking, and as one who has some ability in the original languages, most translations are sufficient for the purpose of the scriptures. I don't think that is a worry. The primary concern is interpreting them and using them in a way that is not commensurate with God's nature, i.e. love, and that abrogate the law of love. If we allow the love we have found in Christ to inform our interpretations and use, all things shall be well.

 

[Chadrho]

Great post!

Based on man's love of money (who doesn't love money?) my guess is that the early church saw a way to cash in BIG on its followers. They began teaching that many people go to Hell or to purgatory but (Here's the good news!) that there was a way to guarantee NOT to go to those places, and that was by making a sizeable donation to the church!

Sound familiar?

Yeah, it does, unfortunately.

 

[Patrick1966]

The scriptures are the unique and authoritative witness to Jesus Christ. So long as they are coupled with the witness of the Holy Spirit, they are sufficient for the purpose of bringing us to faith in the eternal Word of God, Jesus Christ. They need not be perfect or without error to serve their function, and, in fact, they are not perfect or without error. This, too, is an act of grace. If they were perfect, then there would be two perfect Beings, i.e. God and a book. Of course, that's painfully absurd. God has ensured the scriptures' sufficiency without ensuring their perfection lest we worship the book and commit idolatry.

Practically speaking, and as one who has some ability in the original languages, most translations are sufficient for the purpose of the scriptures. I don't think that is a worry. The primary concern is interpreting them and using them in a way that is not commensurate with God's nature, i.e. love, and that abrogate the law of love. If we allow the love we have found in Christ to inform our interpretations and use, all things shall be well.

FWIW I like your response.

 

[Chadrho]

An extremely hate-filled, ego-centric response! Yes, God is a tyrant. It is his way or the highway

How is that a hate filled response when you immediately confirm it is an exact reflection of your position?

He spoke the truth and you agreed. ECT turns the love of God into hate for love always seeks the good of the beloved. There is no good telos/end for the subjects of eternal conscious torment, only the perpetuating of evil by divine will. I am speaking the truth in love so that you will see the truth, if ECT is true, God is not love. We should seek to glorify God not diminish God's glory, which is what ECT does.

 

[Patrick1966]

I think some here need to take a step back and stop trying to win an argument and instead be content to lovingly share with others and when you inevitably encounter disagreement over an interpretation then let it go and move on. It's ok to disagree. You must still love another, however!

 

[Chadrho]

I think some here need to take a step back and stop trying to win an argument and instead be content to lovingly share with others and when you inevitably encounter disagreement over an interpretation then let it go and move on. It's ok to disagree. You must still love another, however!

Thank you. Was my post too harsh? It wasn't intended to be, but it's hard to communicate my gentle disposition over the internet. If it was, then my sincere apologies are offered @Wrangler.