Non-Resistance and Pacifism

[Axehead]

I know this is very difficult for the average American to understand as the American ideology is a far cry from New Testament Christianity.

As with most human institutions Pacifism is a lofty goal to ending the rampant needless violence all over the globe, done to establish a peaceful earthly kingdom. Liberal Christianity has bought into the Pacifistic spirit of the world, because there is no such thing as Christian Pacifism.

Non-resistance is a demonstration of a Christian's love and obedience to Christ and his Kingdom.

Pacifism ignores human sin nature expecting to somehow change the course of history.

Non-resistance acknowledges human sin nature and expects to be persecuted and mistreated.

Pacifism and Non-Resistance are working towards completely different goals, one for an earthly kingdom and the other for a heavenly kingdom.

The Sermon on the Mount, does not teach pacifism, rather it teaches non-resistance.

Does this sound foreign to you? It probably does, since Christendom has veered off of the doctrine of the Cross and what Christ taught about our "enemies".

I think a lot of people recoil at the doctrine of non-resistance because they equate it with left wing political pacifism. That can be easily seen in the "Love Your Enemies" thread as I have been attacked as a "pacifist", even though I explain what the difference is. So, I thought I would start this thread to deal with the difference between Non-Resistance (as taught by Jesus) and Pacifism.

Pacifism brings to mind images of hippies doing "sit ins" during Vietnam, people spitting on returning troops coming back from 'Nam, peace marches, Gandhi, etc. When you mention pacifism that is what comes to mind and that doesn’t sit well with middle class, red blooded conservative Christians.

Biblical non-resistance is a whole different doctrine than the philosophy of pacifism or what is called non-violent coercion or resistance (think Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.). Gandhi was not a Christian, MLK Jr. may have been but the way of the cross is not hunger strikes and mass marches. Non-resistance recognizes the role of the state in a sinful and fallen world, while pacifism is at odds with the state.

The core of Biblical non-resistance is not really a “war or no war” question but rather a recognition of the sinful state of the world and a submission to the will of God, whether that will includes going to a foreign land as a missionary or giving your life as a martyr for Christ. Christians are called to not seek their own “rights”, whether those rights include personal possessions, or the right to seek legal redress in a court or to defend yourself from harm or the seeking of retribution of any kind for being wronged by another.

Rather than seeking justice for ourselves, we are called to declare the justice of God to others through the proclaimed Gospel and in acts of love, fulfilling both the Great Commission and Great Commandment. In doing so we will be persecuted and hated and reviled. That comes with the territory and is all part of the way of the cross.

The nations will wage war. The powerful will oppress the poor. People will lie, cheat and steal. We as ambassadors of Christ are called to be apart from that, taking no part in squabbles over wealth or wars on behalf of nation states.

Our calling is simply to preach Christ and Him crucified. That is not fatalistic, it is simply realistic and Biblical and not much has changed in the 2000 years since the cross.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2: 1-4)

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

I know this is very difficult for the average American to understand as the American ideology is a far cry from New Testament Christianity.

As with most human institutions Pacifism is a lofty goal to ending the rampant needless violence all over the globe, done to establish a peaceful earthly kingdom. Liberal Christianity has bought into the Pacifistic spirit of the world, because there is no such thing as Christian Pacifism.

Non-resistance is a demonstration of a Christian's love and obedience to Christ and his Kingdom.

Pacifism ignores human sin nature expecting to somehow change the course of history.

Non-resistance acknowledges human sin nature and expects to be persecuted and mistreated.

Pacifism and Non-Resistance are working towards completely different goals, one for an earthly kingdom and the other for a heavenly kingdom.

The Sermon on the Mount, does not teach pacifism, rather it teaches non-resistance.

Does this sound foreign to you? It probably does, since Christendom has veered off of the doctrine of the Cross and what Christ taught about our "enemies".

I think a lot of people recoil at the doctrine of non-resistance because they equate it with left wing political pacifism. That can be easily seen in the "Love Your Enemies" thread as I have been attacked as a "pacifist", even though I explain what the difference is. So, I thought I would start this thread to deal with the difference between Non-Resistance (as taught by Jesus) and Pacifism.

Pacifism brings to mind images of hippies doing "sit ins" during Vietnam, people spitting on returning troops coming back from 'Nam, peace marches, Gandhi, etc. When you mention pacifism that is what comes to mind and that doesn’t sit well with middle class, red blooded conservative Christians.

Biblical non-resistance is a whole different doctrine than the philosophy of pacifism or what is called non-violent coercion or resistance (think Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.). Gandhi was not a Christian, MLK Jr. may have been but the way of the cross is not hunger strikes and mass marches. Non-resistance recognizes the role of the state in a sinful and fallen world, while pacifism is at odds with the state.

The core of Biblical non-resistance is not really a “war or no war” question but rather a recognition of the sinful state of the world and a submission to the will of God, whether that will includes going to a foreign land as a missionary or giving your life as a martyr for Christ. Christians are called to not seek their own “rights”, whether those rights include personal possessions, or the right to seek legal redress in a court or to defend yourself from harm or the seeking of retribution of any kind for being wronged by another.

Rather than seeking justice for ourselves, we are called to declare the justice of God to others through the proclaimed Gospel and in acts of love, fulfilling both the Great Commission and Great Commandment. In doing so we will be persecuted and hated and reviled. That comes with the territory and is all part of the way of the cross.

The nations will wage war. The powerful will oppress the poor. People will lie, cheat and steal. We as ambassadors of Christ are called to be apart from that, taking no part in squabbles over wealth or wars on behalf of nation states.

Our calling is simply to preach Christ and Him crucified. That is not fatalistic, it is simply realistic and Biblical and not much has changed in the 2000 years since the cross.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2: 1-4)

Axehead

Amen!!!! :)

 

[veteran]

I know this is very difficult for the average American to understand as the American ideology is a far cry from New Testament Christianity.

You reveal you know nothing about true "American ideology" from the founders of America in relation to Christian Doctrine. You're pushing a lie from the onset with your false assumption that Communist-Socialism has taught you. The average American today is being taught the Communist-Socialist line in today's public education systems, a line of thinking that did not exist in any American schools prior to the 1900's.

As with most human institutions Pacifism is a lofty goal to ending the rampant needless violence all over the globe, done to establish a peaceful earthly kingdom. Liberal Christianity has bought into the Pacifistic spirit of the world, because there is no such thing as Christian Pacifism.

Pacifism is a doctrine that comes from the Socialist platform, which is definitely not connected with "most human institutions", but connected with Communist-Socialist one-world government disinformation pushed upon free peoples in order to enslave them under a small group of world leaders that associate with the plans of the Communist International.


[quote]Non-resistance is a demonstration of a Christian's love and obedience to Christ and his Kingdom.

Pacifism ignores human sin nature expecting to somehow change the course of history.

Non-resistance acknowledges human sin nature and expects to be persecuted and mistreated.[/quote]

No difference between pacifist dogma and the idea of non-resistence. Many new terms can be thought up to continue pushing Pacifist dogma once previous attempts at deception have failed. That's all you're doing here with now trying to create some new definition to make Pacifist dogma seem aligned to Christian Doctrine as revealed from The Bible.

Pacifism and Non-Resistance are working towards completely different goals, one for an earthly kingdom and the other for a heavenly kingdom.

Pacifist dogma is a documentable Soviet strategy against the western Christian nations to aid Communism in the forming up of their planned one-world government system over all nations and peoples. Accompanied with pacifist dogma is disarmament doctrine. The false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" are the ones who started the concept of the Bolsheviki and Communism. The Biblical term for their planned one world government system is the ten horned beast kingdom of Revelation 13, an earthly kingdom attempt to subvert Christ's Kingdom.


[quote]The Sermon on the Mount, does not teach pacifism, rather it teaches non-resistance.

Does this sound foreign to you? It probably does, since Christendom has veered off of the doctrine of the Cross and what Christ taught about our "enemies".[/quote]

Christ did not teach Pacifist dogma. The Luke 22 example where He told His disciples to go buy a sword MUST be understood in conjunction with His Sermon on the Mount teaching. The result is that Christian is not to force The Gospel upon anyone, and in as much as it is possible, to live in peace with all men. But at the same time, each Christian believer is given the inalienable right to defend theirself from aggressors, including their family, their property, and their country.

The idea that we as Christians are to not resist evil is in the context of when we are persecuted for spreading The Gospel, not when being attacked by thieves and murderers, or invading armies. Even in Matthew 24 Christ used the idea of a thief breaking in one's house, that if one knew in what watch the thief would come, they would not allow their house to be broken up. He taught that concept as part of the God-given right to defend ourselves and our homes.

I think a lot of people recoil at the doctrine of non-resistance because they equate it with left wing political pacifism. That can be easily seen in the "Love Your Enemies" thread as I have been attacked as a "pacifist", even though I explain what the difference is. So, I thought I would start this thread to deal with the difference between Non-Resistance (as taught by Jesus) and Pacifism.

True Americans recoil at Pacifist dogma because it is un-Constitutional and un-American, and un-Biblical. Once again, there is no difference between your usage of the two terms pacifist and non-resistence. Proof? Then explain your stance on the 2nd Ammendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Pacifism brings to mind images of hippies doing "sit ins" during Vietnam, people spitting on returning troops coming back from 'Nam, peace marches, Gandhi, etc. When you mention pacifism that is what comes to mind and that doesn’t sit well with middle class, red blooded conservative Christians.

Pacifism doesn't bring to my mind the idea of hippies, because that culture was essential to the Communist subversives in America (and still is today). The hippie cultural movement of the '60's came about from immorality, altering of the mind through the use of drugs, and Communist subversives working on school campuses across the United States. Lot of those mind controlled hippies burned the American flag and instead flew the North Vietnamese Communist flag in their Communist supported 'peace' demonstrations for anti-war Pacifist dogma. Now that's really something for Christ's people to be proud of and want, huh?

Biblical non-resistance is a whole different doctrine than the philosophy of pacifism or what is called non-violent coercion or resistance (think Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.). Gandhi was not a Christian, MLK Jr. may have been but the way of the cross is not hunger strikes and mass marches. Non-resistance recognizes the role of the state in a sinful and fallen world, while pacifism is at odds with the state.

I've already established the fact that Christ did not teach to not resist evil to include self-defense. Luke 22 established the fact that Christians have the right to defend theirselves. What you're trying to preach is Pacifism, and you must also apply it to Christian rulers given power by God as His ministers to bear the sword against evil (per Romans 13).

The fact that God has given Christian rulers that power of the sword makes your argument meaningless and instead reveals you're following a political agenda against Christ and His Church.

The core of Biblical non-resistance is not really a “war or no war” question but rather a recognition of the sinful state of the world and a submission to the will of God, whether that will includes going to a foreign land as a missionary or giving your life as a martyr for Christ.

The Bible does not teach non-resistance against those seek to destroy. Christians don't have to... "seek their own 'rights'". Our Christian rights are derived from God's Word and those whom He puts in power over us. Christ defined part of that in Luke 22 when He told His disciples to go buy and sword for those who didn't yet have one. And thus in the historical Christians nations, the people have been allowed to keep and bear arms based on that Biblical right defined by God, and not by men. All the U.S. founders did with passing the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was to RECOGNIZE the people's inalienable right from God to keep and bear arms for self-defense.

[quote]Christians are called to not seek their own “rights”, whether those rights include personal possessions, or the right to seek legal redress in a court or to defend yourself from harm or the seeking of retribution of any kind for being wronged by another.[/quote]

Thank you for that evidence of showing us who you really are and what doctrine you actually align with, i.e., that of Communist-Socialism.

According to your doctrine you follow, we as Christians are NOT to seek our "own 'rights', whether those rights include personal possessions, or the right to seek legal redress in a court or to defend yourself from harm...". What that's saying is, that we as Christians have no authority in rights concerning our 1) possessions; our 2) right to seek legal redress; our 3) right to defend ourselves. If that isn't Communist-Socialist doctrine directly from Christ's enemies, then I'll eat your hat.

Per the Constitution of The United States of America, all American citizens have rights of:
1 - personal property, and even the ability of the pursuit of happiness
2 - to legal redress of grievances per use of the law and court system
3 - the right to keep and bear arms against enemies both domestic and foreign, per the 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Not only those, but many OTHER rights are defined as inalienable per the U.S. Constitution of The United States of America. As also given to the 'people' are all other rights not SPECIFICALLY given to government per same Constitution.

On your improper attempt to associate the idea of "retribution" with the idea of self-defense, that's another showing of how you've come here to push Communist-Socialist doctrine per a political agenda.

It's plain now folks, Axehead's political agenda he's come here to push is that of Communist-Socialism which is against the founding principles established under the Constitution of The United States of America and the Christian Bible.

 

[Axehead]

You reveal you know nothing about true "American ideology" from the founders of America in relation to Christian Doctrine. You're pushing a lie from the onset with your false assumption that Communist-Socialism has taught you. The average American today is being taught the Communist-Socialist line in today's public education systems, a line of thinking that did not exist in any American schools prior to the 1900's.

It is tedious to converse with you, Vet. You either add to my words or twist them, being intellectually dishonest.

I see that you hold the "American Ideology" and the U.S. Constitution above the Bible and I think that is what your main stumbling block is. Would you admit that the U.S. Consitution gives us freedoms that the Lord Jesus does not give us?

Pacifism is a doctrine that comes from the Socialist platform, which is definitely not connected with "most human institutions", but connected with Communist-Socialist one-world government disinformation pushed upon free peoples in order to enslave them under a small group of world leaders that associate with the plans of the Communist International.

I agree with that statement. I will go one further. Pacifism is insidious and from the pit of hell.

No difference between pacifist dogma and the idea of non-resistence. Many new terms can be thought up to continue pushing Pacifist dogma once previous attempts at deception have failed. That's all you're doing here with now trying to create some new definition to make Pacifist dogma seem aligned to Christian Doctrine as revealed from The Bible.

THis is where you are exposing your ignorance when you equate Pacifism with the Lord's teachings and behavior on Non-Resistance.

Pacifist dogma is a documentable Soviet strategy against the western Christian nations to aid Communism in the forming up of their planned one-world government system over all nations and peoples. Accompanied with pacifist dogma is disarmament doctrine. The false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" are the ones who started the concept of the Bolsheviki and Communism. The Biblical term for their planned one world government system is the ten horned beast kingdom of Revelation 13, an earthly kingdom attempt to subvert Christ's Kingdom.

I certainly can agree with that.

Christ did not teach Pacifist dogma.

That is correct. Thank you.

The Luke 22 example where He told His disciples to go buy a sword MUST be understood in conjunction with His Sermon on the Mount teaching. The result is that Christian is not to force The Gospel upon anyone, and in as much as it is possible, to live in peace with all men. But at the same time, each Christian believer is given the inalienable right to defend theirself from aggressors, including their family, their property, and their country.

You conveniently skirt this scripture (below) and at the same time add your interpretation to Luke 22. Nothing I can do about that.
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. You also ignore that Jesus did not want the swords to be used because He scolded Peter.

The idea that we as Christians are to not resist evil is in the context of when we are persecuted for spreading The Gospel, not when being attacked by thieves and murderers, or invading armies. Even in Matthew 24 Christ used the idea of a thief breaking in one's house, that if one knew in what watch the thief would come, they would not allow their house to be broken up. He taught that concept as part of the God-given right to defend ourselves and our homes.

You are using situational ethics, now. Kind of like, "was it a hate crime or wasn't it".

True Americans recoil at Pacifist dogma because it is un-Constitutional and un-American, and un-Biblical. Once again, there is no difference between your usage of the two terms pacifist and non-resistence. Proof? Then explain your stance on the 2nd Ammendment of the U.S. Constitution.

I thought we were talking about True Christians. You are talking about True Americans and the Constitution and I am talking about True Christians and the Bible. No wonder we aren’t connecting. You do realize I hope that you can be a True American and not a True Christian, right? Just like you can be a True Roman and not a True Christian.

Pacifism doesn't bring to my mind the idea of hippies, because that culture was essential to the Communist subversives in America (and still is today). The hippie cultural movement of the '60's came about from immorality, altering of the mind through the use of drugs, and Communist subversives working on school campuses across the United States. Lot of those mind controlled hippies burned the American flag and instead flew the North Vietnamese Communist flag in their Communist supported 'peace' demonstrations for anti-war Pacifist dogma. Now that's really something for Christ's people to be proud of and want, huh?

I don’t know if you have a comprehension problem or not. I was not equating 1960’s Pacifists with Christians. Why are you? I was trying to give an example of Pacifism.

I've already established the fact that Christ did not teach to not resist evil to include self-defense. Luke 22 established the fact that Christians have the right to defend their selves. What you're trying to preach is Pacifism, and you must also apply it to Christian rulers given power by God as His ministers to bear the sword against evil (per Romans 13).

I respect your belief but don’t agree with it. I don’t see that in historical (pre 250 AD) Christianity or the Scriptures. I have already shown you your erroneous interpretation of Luke 22 and I do agree with Romans 13 about Civil rulers. If a Christian is a civil ruler, He will be still be judged individually on how he wielded his civil authority.

The fact that God has given Christian rulers that power of the sword makes your argument meaningless and instead reveals you're following a political agenda against Christ and His Church.

By the way, where did Paul ever say these were “Christian rulers”. I think that term belongs to you.

Per the Constitution of The United States of America, all American citizens have rights of:
1 - personal property, and even the ability of the pursuit of happiness
2 - to legal redress of grievances per use of the law and court system
3 - the right to keep and bear arms against enemies both domestic and foreign, per the 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Not only those, but many OTHER rights are defined as inalienable per the U.S. Constitution of The United States of America. As also given to the 'people' are all other rights not SPECIFICALLY given to government per same Constitution.

Do you remember where it is said in Philipians that Jesus emptied Himself of all of His “rights” as God and took the form of a servant? Good, I thought you would remember that. It is in Phil 2.

Do you know that when you give yourself to Jesus Christ and His ways, His truth, His kingdom that you are saying Lord, not my will but yours be done. And that means in every area of your life. It does not matter what “rights” a man-made constitution gives you if God has not given you those rights. I don't see where in the NT that we have rights. I see commandments, statues, etc, but not rights. From what I read, we have the right to love our enemies, feed them, do good to them. We have the right to lay down our lives, we have the right to suffer for righteousness sake and the right to trust in God to protect us. I don't see the right to trust in ourselves.

Does the U.S. Constitution give us the right to the Freedom of Speech?

Does God give us the right to the freedom of Speech?

Freedom of Speech is a governmental concept not a spiritual concept.

Some freedoms that the U.S. Constitution gives allows men to run headlong without boundaries. That is why the American government should not be considered sacred. It may have good or bad aspects about it but only God and His ways are sacred.

Take the “right” to the pursuit of happiness. Does God give us that right? It is pretty open-ended in the Constitution. Does God give us the right to choose to have sex outside of marriage? The U.S. Constitution does. Should governments have the right to take away the hard earned possessions of innocent people (otherwise called socialism). Hmmm, looks like “freedom” is not always good, doesn’t it? That is precisely why we get our marching orders from the Holy Spirit not a man-made document.

There is a warning given to us in the Word of God about our speech. After being told that our words are often filled with all manner of evil, Christ the Lord tells us that we will be judged for every careless word that we speak. If this is the case, then "freedom of speech" may not be all that it is cracked up to be. Who wants freedom if that freedom will lead us to greater judgment?

So, does God really grant us the right of “Freedom of Speech”.

Being the simple man I am, do we believe the sermon on the mount as Jesus taught it? Or do we add what if’s because maybe Jesus didn't understand what life nowadays would be like?

What is good for America, is often been seen as God's will.

Axehead

 

[veteran]

It is tedious to converse with you, Vet. You either add to my words or twist them, being intellectually dishonest.

Your tediousness is from your having been programmed by Socialist doctrines which you apparently don't truly understand when you espouse them.

I see that you hold the "American Ideology" and the U.S. Constitution above the Bible and I think that is what your main stumbling block is. Would you admit that the U.S. Consitution gives us freedoms that the Lord Jesus does not give us?

The ideology of the founders who wrote the U.S. Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, etc., comes directly from God's Word The Bible. Sad you don't know that, or refuse to recognize that fact.

I agree with that statement. I will go one further. Pacifism is insidious and from the pit of hell.

The "non-resistance" idea you're pushing is the same idea as Pacifism. Two words for the same ideology.

THis is where you are exposing your ignorance when you equate Pacifism with the Lord's teachings and behavior on Non-Resistance.

I never equated Pacifist dogma with any of Christ's teachings. Evidently the Socialist thinking has got you confused with simple black and white, putting white for black, and black for white. God said that kind of confusion would happen in the last days by those against His Word (Isaiah).

You conveniently skirt this scripture (below) and at the same time add your interpretation to Luke 22. Nothing I can do about that.

Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. You also ignore that Jesus did not want the swords to be used because He scolded Peter.

You got here late. Try going back to some of my earlier posts. I covered that verse. That verse has nothing to do with Christ's command for His disciples to go buy a sword. Maybe you think Christ is stupid or something, telling them one thing one minute, and then a totally opposite thing the next minute? That shows the confusion you're under. That verse was Christ pulling from the OT prophets about His crucifixion. Peter is not mentioned there.

You are using situational ethics, now. Kind of like, "was it a hate crime or wasn't it".

Where do the phrases "situational ethics" or "hate crime" appear in God's Word?? The idea of the watchman and times of watches does appear in God's Word. Christ used the idea of the watchman resisting the thief from breaking into the home in the positive sense, not in the non-resistance sense. That's why people, INCLUDING CHRISTIANS, have the right to self-defense in their homes against a thief breaking in.

But your non-resistance-pacifist theology says Christians don't have that right to self-defense, even suggesting that non-Christians do. That in effect is to treat the Christian as a second-class citizen.

I thought we were talking about True Christians. You are talking about True Americans and the Constitution and I am talking about True Christians and the Bible. No wonder we aren’t connecting. You do realize I hope that you can be a True American and not a True Christian, right? Just like you can be a True Roman and not a True Christian.

See what I mean? You espouse a non-Christian has the right to self-defense, but a Christian doesn't by trying to make that kind of distinction between Americans and Christians! True Americans are... Christians, having a Christian heritage back to the founding of the United States from Biblical principles the founders used to write the Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, and many other documents establishing the United States originally as a Christian naiton.

I don’t know if you have a comprehension problem or not. I was not equating 1960’s Pacifists with Christians. Why are you? I was trying to give an example of Pacifism.

Pacifism, Non-Resistance of evil, U.S. flag and draft-card burning, hippie culture, all the same thing. But the Communist Viet Cong and NVA weren't pacifists, were they? So why was Pacifist dogma used by the anti-war hippie culture when they clearly supported the non-pacifist actions of the Communists? That's like saying one thing out of one corner of the mouth, and another thing out of the other corner, hypocrites.

Likewise today, those pushing Communist-Socialist doctrines of Non-Resistance and Disarmament are hypocrites, simply because the Communist International is ready to use armed force to achieve their political aims if necessary, as they have done in the past. If they can't achieve through peace, they'll resort to armed force.

I respect your belief but don’t agree with it. I don’t see that in historical (pre 250 AD) Christianity or the Scriptures. I have already shown you your erroneous interpretation of Luke 22 and I do agree with Romans 13 about Civil rulers. If a Christian is a civil ruler, He will be still be judged individually on how he wielded his civil authority.

I only respect you as a brother in Christ Jesus, that is IF... you believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ. But I do not respect the doctrine stance you're on, as I know well where its true origins come from, and it's not from our Lord Jesus in His Word.

Concerning Romans 13 applying to Christian rulers, that's history, and it's still in effect today among the western Christian nations. Christ did not do away with His original establishing of civil rule (bearing the sword) among His people that began in the Old Testament. You might want to look up the history of why the King James Version translators called king James "Defender Of The Faith" in the original 1st KJV edition Letter To King James. Communist-Socialism doesn't want you to understand that as Christian Doctrine per the New Testament.

By the way, where did Paul ever say these were “Christian rulers”. I think that term belongs to you.

To claim ignorance or denial of the existence of Christian rulers would be a new height of confusion you will have reached.

Do you remember where it is said in Philipians that Jesus emptied Himself of all of His “rights” as God and took the form of a servant? Good, I thought you would remember that. It is in Phil 2.

So now you're suggesting that we should literally imitate Christ, be our 'own' Christ, and try to be crucified like Him? What do they call that, "Christ complex" or something like that, right? Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, to die on the cross for the remission of sins for those who believe. His cup He was to drink of was not, and is not, ours. Keep reading in your Bible and you'll discover when Jesus returns, He's not coming this next time meek as a Lamb to be slain. He's going to come wielding a sword that cuts both ways out of His mouth!

Do you know that when you give yourself to Jesus Christ and His ways, His truth, His kingdom that you are saying Lord, not my will but yours be done. And that means in every area of your life. It does not matter what “rights” a man-made constitution gives you if God has not given you those rights. I don't see where in the NT that we have rights. I see commandments, statues, etc, but not rights. From what I read, we have the right to love our enemies, feed them, do good to them. We have the right to lay down our lives, we have the right to suffer for righteousness sake and the right to trust in God to protect us. I don't see the right to trust in ourselves.

Your error is with thinking that the U.S. Constitution is simply a man-made document with no basis from GOD. Guess you'll never figure out why all the images in the U.S. court system of Moses carrying the tablets of The Ten Commandments, and how that applied originally in the U.S. to make it a Christian nation.

[quote]Does the U.S. Constitution give us the right to the Freedom of Speech? [/quote]

You bet it does. And one of the main reasons for the 1st Ammendment was to prevent Christ's enemies from stopping the preaching of The Gospel. That Ammendment also includes freedom of the people to assemble, and freedom of the press. Contrast that to people's rights in Communist-Socialist nations.


[quote]Does God give us the right to the freedom of Speech? [/quote]

Yes, He does, or didn't you understand what Christ sending His disciples to the nations to preach The Gospel and God's principles from His Word was about?? Everywhere The Gospel and His Word was accepted, the people flourished, at least until Christ's enemies began creeping in to try and destroy it. Christ's enemies are NOT going to win. They will NEVER be able to wipe The Gospel off the face of this earth. Those who try will perish. It's only a matter of time.

Freedom of Speech is a governmental concept not a spiritual concept.

Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, is from God to His people. One of Israel's main responsibilities to all nations after Christ died on the cross, was and is, to spread The Gospel to all nations. If God was not the Author of that, then there is no such thing as freedom of speech. That freedom you are enjoying right here, right now. And so am I.

Some freedoms that the U.S. Constitution gives allows men to run headlong without boundaries. That is why the American government should not be considered sacred. It may have good or bad aspects about it but only God and His ways are sacred.

Obviously, you must not be an American. Otherwise you wouldn't speak such ignorance about the U.S. Constitution. The government of the United States is 'We the people'. It's the American people that allow corrupt leaders to get into power when that happens, as they are elected by the people. The people are... the U.S. government. And 'We the people' have the Constitutional authority to make changes in government, if the people would only learn to use that authority God provided through the U.S. founders. I wonder how many people in Communist-Socialist countries wish they had that kind of power?

What does that mean for immoral speech? If 'We the people' deem immoral speech against sound doctrine and define it, then we the people have the authority to limit immoral speech, that authority from the U.S. Constitution. Or didn't you remember that all other rights not specifically given by the U.S. Constitution to the state belong to the 'people'.


I'm not one that's ignorant as to what's happening today upon the Christian nations which The Father through His Son ordained per His Word. God forewarned His people in the last days that His enemies would gain power for the time of Jacob's trouble. That's only to be a little while, and He told His people to be patient through it. The reason is because of how He is going to consume His enemies that come upon His people to try and destroy them in the very end of this world. That's when HE is going to step in and destroy them. I'm going to enjoy seeing it, if I'm still here. God is going to do that to make sure... the heathen nations KNOW He is Who is going to do it. If He gave us to do it, as He's done in past history, the heathen wouldn't think their defeat came from Him. In the end of this present world, they are going to KNOW it's from Him, directly.

Take the “right” to the pursuit of happiness. Does God give us that right? It is pretty open-ended in the Constitution. Does God give us the right to choose to have sex outside of marriage? The U.S. Constitution does. Should governments have the right to take away the hard earned possessions of innocent people (otherwise called socialism). Hmmm, looks like “freedom” is not always good, doesn’t it? That is precisely why we get our marching orders from the Holy Spirit not a man-made document.

Yep, God gives His people that right to pursue happiness. That's why it's very easy to look at history of the Christian nations and see how they have prospered over all other nations that refuse Him. And that is still... in effect today.

Maybe you're too young to know how U.S. states' laws once enacted punishment for immoral sins the crept in unawares have caused in America today. Just wait though. Not much longer, and it's going to be corrected. You can count on it. As the ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen discovered in 1958 about the Soviet Communist's long-range strategy against the West, much of the immorality has come from their Communist change agents in trying to corrupt the West, even with their pushing pornography (per Skousen in The Naked Communist - 1958).

So go ahead. Use that slap in America's face which Christ's enemies have caused, because you obviously put all the blame upon the American 'people', and not where it truly belongs with Communist-Socialists and Orthodox Jewish subversives that hate Christ Jesus.

There is a warning given to us in the Word of God about our speech. After being told that our words are often filled with all manner of evil, Christ the Lord tells us that we will be judged for every careless word that we speak. If this is the case, then "freedom of speech" may not be all that it is cracked up to be. Who wants freedom if that freedom will lead us to greater judgment?

So, does God really grant us the right of “Freedom of Speech”.

I see you're STILL confused about the right of the people to LIMIT immoral speech, even SUBVERSIVE SPEECH designed to overthrow the nation. But go on, keeping slapping the U.S. Constitution in the face with your Communist subversiveness ideology. Your type of speech doesn't fool me any, though it no doubt does quite a few here on this forum. God knows who the real trouble-makers in America are today, and He's going to handle them soon enough. It's coming, Get ready for it, if you can.

Being the simple man I am, do we believe the sermon on the mount as Jesus taught it? Or do we add what if’s because maybe Jesus didn't understand what life nowadays would be like?

What is good for America, is often been seen as God's will.

Axehead

It should be quite obvious by now, that YOUR words are NOT to be trusted. The more you say, the more you reveal you adhere to Communist-Socialist doctrine directly against the United States of America and it's peoples, including against Christ Himself as their Supreme Commander.

 

[Axehead]

Veteran,

It is clear that you are a Political "Christian" and don't understand the difference between the Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world. You are the most dangerous of Christians because you believe you can pick up weapons to solve your problems and all in the Name of Christ!!

You think Jesus is a Communist because He preached Non-Resistance and more than that, HE LIVED IT. From all that you say you have a lot of leaven (mixture) in your thinking, trying to bring about God's will by the arm of the flesh. Christians don't push non-resistance they live it. Jesus did not push it, He lived it. Does He live in you? If so, why would He act contrary to His nature and how He already lived in front of man, everyday, 2000 years ago. Does Jesus in you want to pick up weapons and fight for one of the kingdoms of this world or is that just you that wants to do that. I don't think I know that particular Jesus. He says, "My kingdom is not of this world, otherwise my servants would fight".

Pacifists push pacifism, disarmament and all manner of humanistic evils.

Christians don't push non-resistance. As I said, they live it because Jesus lives in them. Of course, Jesus did preach the Sermon on the Mount which is all about non-resistance, then He proceeded to demonstrate how to live it the next 3 years.

There is a world of difference between what Jesus taught and Pacifism. Pacifism is not taught in the Bible and Jesus neither taught it nor lived it. Jesus in us, will not live contrary to His Word and His nature. And it certainly was not the history nor the example of the early church and there is no account in the New Testament scriptures of anything contrary to what I am saying.

With all of your talking, I wish you would have developed your point a view with a lot more scriptures. Because what you are talking about is so serious that there should be an ample supply of verses in the NT to support your doctrine.

I'm sorry Vet, the U.S. Constitution, although a fine document for people to rule themselves, is still not the Word of God. People don't rule in the Kingdom of God, Christ does. Your political dogma has blinded you to the Scriptures in this matter.

So endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ, because no man that warreth (spiritual warfare), will entangle himself with the affairs of this life. that he may please HIM who hath chosen him to be a soldier. (This is not talking about being a physical soldier). (2 Tim 2:3-4).

Have you entangled yourself in the affairs of this life?

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I don't think your words are to be trusted. They have no basis in the Word of God. Christ has no relationship with America, or any other nation. Since the New Covenant, Christ has relationships with individuals that make up His Church, His Kingdom. He runs things a lot differently than men do.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

Your tediousness is from your having been programmed by Socialist doctrines which you apparently don't truly understand when you espouse them.




The ideology of the founders who wrote the U.S. Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, etc., comes directly from God's Word The Bible. Sad you don't know that, or refuse to recognize that fact.




The "non-resistance" idea you're pushing is the same idea as Pacifism. Two words for the same ideology.




I never equated Pacifist dogma with any of Christ's teachings. Evidently the Socialist thinking has got you confused with simple black and white, putting white for black, and black for white. God said that kind of confusion would happen in the last days by those against His Word (Isaiah).




You got here late. Try going back to some of my earlier posts. I covered that verse. That verse has nothing to do with Christ's command for His disciples to go buy a sword. Maybe you think Christ is stupid or something, telling them one thing one minute, and then a totally opposite thing the next minute? That shows the confusion you're under. That verse was Christ pulling from the OT prophets about His crucifixion. Peter is not mentioned there.




Where do the phrases "situational ethics" or "hate crime" appear in God's Word?? The idea of the watchman and times of watches does appear in God's Word. Christ used the idea of the watchman resisting the thief from breaking into the home in the positive sense, not in the non-resistance sense. That's why people, INCLUDING CHRISTIANS, have the right to self-defense in their homes against a thief breaking in.

But your non-resistance-pacifist theology says Christians don't have that right to self-defense, even suggesting that non-Christians do. That in effect is to treat the Christian as a second-class citizen.





See what I mean? You espouse a non-Christian has the right to self-defense, but a Christian doesn't by trying to make that kind of distinction between Americans and Christians! True Americans are... Christians, having a Christian heritage back to the founding of the United States from Biblical principles the founders used to write the Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, and many other documents establishing the United States originally as a Christian naiton.




Pacifism, Non-Resistance of evil, U.S. flag and draft-card burning, hippie culture, all the same thing. But the Communist Viet Cong and NVA weren't pacifists, were they? So why was Pacifist dogma used by the anti-war hippie culture when they clearly supported the non-pacifist actions of the Communists? That's like saying one thing out of one corner of the mouth, and another thing out of the other corner, hypocrites.

Likewise today, those pushing Communist-Socialist doctrines of Non-Resistance and Disarmament are hypocrites, simply because the Communist International is ready to use armed force to achieve their political aims if necessary, as they have done in the past. If they can't achieve through peace, they'll resort to armed force.




I only respect you as a brother in Christ Jesus, that is IF... you believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ. But I do not respect the doctrine stance you're on, as I know well where its true origins come from, and it's not from our Lord Jesus in His Word.

Concerning Romans 13 applying to Christian rulers, that's history, and it's still in effect today among the western Christian nations. Christ did not do away with His original establishing of civil rule (bearing the sword) among His people that began in the Old Testament. You might want to look up the history of why the King James Version translators called king James "Defender Of The Faith" in the original 1st KJV edition Letter To King James. Communist-Socialism doesn't want you to understand that as Christian Doctrine per the New Testament.




To claim ignorance or denial of the existence of Christian rulers would be a new height of confusion you will have reached.




So now you're suggesting that we should literally imitate Christ, be our 'own' Christ, and try to be crucified like Him? What do they call that, "Christ complex" or something like that, right? Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, to die on the cross for the remission of sins for those who believe. His cup He was to drink of was not, and is not, ours. Keep reading in your Bible and you'll discover when Jesus returns, He's not coming this next time meek as a Lamb to be slain. He's going to come wielding a sword that cuts both ways out of His mouth!




Your error is with thinking that the U.S. Constitution is simply a man-made document with no basis from GOD. Guess you'll never figure out why all the images in the U.S. court system of Moses carrying the tablets of The Ten Commandments, and how that applied originally in the U.S. to make it a Christian nation.



You bet it does. And one of the main reasons for the 1st Ammendment was to prevent Christ's enemies from stopping the preaching of The Gospel. That Ammendment also includes freedom of the people to assemble, and freedom of the press. Contrast that to people's rights in Communist-Socialist nations.




Yes, He does, or didn't you understand what Christ sending His disciples to the nations to preach The Gospel and God's principles from His Word was about?? Everywhere The Gospel and His Word was accepted, the people flourished, at least until Christ's enemies began creeping in to try and destroy it. Christ's enemies are NOT going to win. They will NEVER be able to wipe The Gospel off the face of this earth. Those who try will perish. It's only a matter of time.




Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, is from God to His people. One of Israel's main responsibilities to all nations after Christ died on the cross, was and is, to spread The Gospel to all nations. If God was not the Author of that, then there is no such thing as freedom of speech. That freedom you are enjoying right here, right now. And so am I.




Obviously, you must not be an American. Otherwise you wouldn't speak such ignorance about the U.S. Constitution. The government of the United States is 'We the people'. It's the American people that allow corrupt leaders to get into power when that happens, as they are elected by the people. The people are... the U.S. government. And 'We the people' have the Constitutional authority to make changes in government, if the people would only learn to use that authority God provided through the U.S. founders. I wonder how many people in Communist-Socialist countries wish they had that kind of power?

What does that mean for immoral speech? If 'We the people' deem immoral speech against sound doctrine and define it, then we the people have the authority to limit immoral speech, that authority from the U.S. Constitution. Or didn't you remember that all other rights not specifically given by the U.S. Constitution to the state belong to the 'people'.


I'm not one that's ignorant as to what's happening today upon the Christian nations which The Father through His Son ordained per His Word. God forewarned His people in the last days that His enemies would gain power for the time of Jacob's trouble. That's only to be a little while, and He told His people to be patient through it. The reason is because of how He is going to consume His enemies that come upon His people to try and destroy them in the very end of this world. That's when HE is going to step in and destroy them. I'm going to enjoy seeing it, if I'm still here. God is going to do that to make sure... the heathen nations KNOW He is Who is going to do it. If He gave us to do it, as He's done in past history, the heathen wouldn't think their defeat came from Him. In the end of this present world, they are going to KNOW it's from Him, directly.




Yep, God gives His people that right to pursue happiness. That's why it's very easy to look at history of the Christian nations and see how they have prospered over all other nations that refuse Him. And that is still... in effect today.

Maybe you're too young to know how U.S. states' laws once enacted punishment for immoral sins the crept in unawares have caused in America today. Just wait though. Not much longer, and it's going to be corrected. You can count on it. As the ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen discovered in 1958 about the Soviet Communist's long-range strategy against the West, much of the immorality has come from their Communist change agents in trying to corrupt the West, even with their pushing pornography (per Skousen in The Naked Communist - 1958).

So go ahead. Use that slap in America's face which Christ's enemies have caused, because you obviously put all the blame upon the American 'people', and not where it truly belongs with Communist-Socialists and Orthodox Jewish subversives that hate Christ Jesus.




I see you're STILL confused about the right of the people to LIMIT immoral speech, even SUBVERSIVE SPEECH designed to overthrow the nation. But go on, keeping slapping the U.S. Constitution in the face with your Communist subversiveness ideology. Your type of speech doesn't fool me any, though it no doubt does quite a few here on this forum. God knows who the real trouble-makers in America are today, and He's going to handle them soon enough. It's coming, Get ready for it, if you can.





It should be quite obvious by now, that YOUR words are NOT to be trusted. The more you say, the more you reveal you adhere to Communist-Socialist doctrine directly against the United States of America and it's peoples, including against Christ Himself as their Supreme Commander.

You are making a carnal argument based on the US as the supreme truth. How misguided can one get?

 

[Axehead]

This is a good article by Harry Bethel as he clarifies some important things regarding the New Testament teaching of non-resistance.

NON-RESISTANCE ​

Harry Bethel
BethelMinistries.com​

There are only a few New Testament commandments about which Jesus warned that whoever breaks them and teaches others to do so would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

Our Lord said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt. 5:19).

What are these commandments? Some of them are clear commandments concerning non-resistance: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain...Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you...For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? (Mt. 5:38-46)."

Many Christians, including church leaders, ignore these commands and Jesus' warning to not break them or teach others to break them. In these last days of apostasy we are like God's people spoken of in the book of Judges when "every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Many Dispensationalists rationalize and say that was the sermon on the mount and does not apply to us. Let God be true, but every man a liar (Rm. 3:4).

The apostle Paul said that the armor of God (in this dispensation) is "truth," "righteousness, "the gospel of peace," "faith," salvation," and "the word of God" (Eph. 6:14-17). Inspired by the Spirit of Christ, Paul wrote, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal..." (2 Cor. 10:3-4). In other words Paul is saying that though we live in the world we do not wage war as the world does. "Recompense to no man evil for evil...avenge not yourselves, but overcome evil with good" (Rm. 12:17-21). And in Ephesians 6:12 he said, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood."

Most Christians today do not accept the New Testament doctrine of non-resistance. Many refuse to see the clear teachings on this matter, or if they do see this truth they do not apply it to their lives. Under the Old Covenant God's people were not non-resistant to their enemies. But under the New Covenant we have a much higher calling than the Old Testament saints.

The term "non-resistance" comes from the words of Jesus when He commanded, "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil" (Mt. 5:39). The context clearly shows that our Lord is speaking of not resisting an evil person. This in no way means that we are not to resist the temptations to sin, because, of course, all of Scripture is against that and can be summed up in the inspired words of James, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).

Scriptural non-resistance is not pacifism. Worldly pacifists primarily oppose war but will march, protest, picket, and obstruct the flow of pedestrian traffic, etc. A pacifist, while opposing war, would not necessarily abstain from going to court against a neighbor or defending himself or his property if attacked by a robber, for example.

In the Old Dispensation God at times commanded His people to kill their enemies. The calling of those saints certainly did not include non-resistance as it does under the New (and better) Covenant.

Jesus and His earthly ministry was the epitome of non-resistance, even submitting to suffering and death of the cross from which He could have delivered Himself by calling thousands of angels (Mt. 26:53). When the men came to arrest Jesus, Peter wielded his sword and cut off a man's ear. Jesus rebuked Peter and said, "They that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Mt. 26:52). Later, Jesus told Pilate "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight..." (Jn. 18:36).

Jesus' kingdom still is not of this world and it is only the disobedient servants of His that fight, whether in personal combat or dropping an atomic bomb on thousands of men, women, and children.

Jesus and the disciples were traveling and planning to stay in a village of the Samaritans, but they were not welcomed. James and John said, 'Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" (Lk. 9:51-55). Many professing Christians today do not know what manner of spirit they are of.

Many Christians say, "Well, if a robber comes into my house and tries to take off my stuff, am I supposed to just stand there and let him?" The answer is, Only if you want to obey the commandments of Jesus. Christians will often dream up some hypothetical situation in order to try to make the command of God of no effect. In the book of Luke is recorded more of Jesus' words on the subject: "And him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again" (6:29b-30).

Jesus said, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal...for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Mt. 6:19-21).

God is sovereign. Ask him to protect you and your family with His holy angels. No one can even touch you or your family or your possessions without God's knowledge and Him allowing it.

Some would say, But what about going to war to defend this country and democracy? The simple answer is that our citizenship is in heaven. We are (or should be) merely sojourners---pilgrims and strangers. Could you imagine yourself being like Jesus and at the same time leveling rifle sights between the eyes of a Russian soldier who is also a Christian brother and blowing his brains out?

And concerning democracy, the political environment in which God places us is of little eternal consequence. As citizens of heaven it is not our calling to defend any particular political ideology.

The end result of democracy, which is rule by the people, is the right for women to kill their unborn children, the right to publish and distribute pornographic literature, the right to broadcast sensuous and immoral acts on television, the right for homosexuals to teach in the public schools and parade down the middle of the street (with a government-issued permit) carrying placards and flaunting their sin, ad nauseam. (Please read article titled Democracy---A Scriptural Perspective.)

Peter, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, wrote, "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps...who, when He was reviled, reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not; but committed himself to Him that judgeth righteously" (1 Pet. 2:21-23).

Shortly before He was crucified, the command of Jesus to His disciples to get a sword had to be done to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy that Jesus was numbered with transgressors. Jesus was falsely accused of many things including Him being a transgressor. All Old Testament prophecy was, or will be, fulfilled to the very letter.

In Isaiah 53:12 the prophecy was that Jesus would be numbered with transgressors (plural). Only two of the disciples had swords which was enough to make it more than one transgressor, that is, transgressors in the sight of the Jews who falsely accused Jesus of many things. There was no need to have all the disciples to obtain a sword. When the disciples told Jesus, "Lord, look, here are two swords" He told them that that was enough. (Two disciples with one sword each, made it enough to fulfill the plural nature of the prophecy.)

If Jesus was teaching something different concerning non-resistance He would have ordered all the disciples to obtain a sword. But this was not at all what Jesus was doing. In fact, shortly after that when the multitude came, Peter, who was one of the two who had a sword, cut off the right ear of the slave of the high priest. Jesus strongly rebuked Peter and said, "Stop! No more of this" (Lk. 22:51). Also, see John 18:10. Then Jesus healed the slave's ear. Concerning the same account, in Matthew 26:52 it is recorded that Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword" (NASB).

Later, recorded in the Revelation, the message is also clear---"if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints" (13:10 NASB).

Will you be one of those who are called least in the kingdom of heaven? My hope is that just the opposite will be true. Jesus said whosoever shall do and teach these commandments, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. But the real test is, do you love Jesus enough to obey Him in everything including the commandment to be non-resistant? Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep my commandments...He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings." (Jn. 14:15, 24).

Axehead

 

[veteran]

You are making a carnal argument based on the US as the supreme truth. How misguided can one get?

The establishing of the western Christian nations was by God's Hand. It was Bible prophecy. And it is Bible prophecy that those nations will continue to exist to the day of Christ's return. But of course, Jewish teaching is against that idea, so one with that kind of upbringing aren't going to understand this.

 

[Episkopos]

The establishing of the western Christian nations was by God's Hand. It was Bible prophecy. And it is Bible prophecy that those nations will continue to exist to the day of Christ's return. But of course, Jewish teaching is against that idea, so one with that kind of upbringing aren't going to understand this.

You are espousing a heresy called "Triumphalism." We rich white westerners being the uber-menschen that God loves so He makes us rich and fat!!!! Lean a little more to the right and you get the KKK!!! Not a pleasant thought.

 

[veteran]

You are espousing a heresy called "Triumphalism." We rich white westerners being the uber-menschen that God loves so He makes us rich and fat!!!! Lean a little more to the right and you get the KKK!!! Not a pleasant thought.

You're espousing a heresay called Communist Socialism!

Even the Christian ministers and pastors fought with the people in the American Revolution against British tyranny.

If it were not for those in Christ Jesus who fought for freedoms in the West you'd probably be praying to alla.

 

[Axehead]

You are espousing a heresy called "Triumphalism." We rich white westerners being the uber-menschen that God loves so He makes us rich and fat!!!! Lean a little more to the right and you get the KKK!!! Not a pleasant thought.

Veteran sounds like he is espousing "Manifested Sons of God" doctrine or "Dominionism". It does not matter that "Christian" ministers and "Pastors" picked up weapons to blow away the British. I am sure there were British "Christians" and "Pastors" killing the American "Christians" and "Pastors", too.

Let's just forget the Gospel. What power does it have? Let's drop a couple of MOABs on our "enemies". Are "we" any different than Islam? Convert or die!!

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran, :)

'If that isn't Communist-Socialist doctrine directly from Christ's enemies, then I'll eat your hat.'

Twice now, I've heard Carter Conlon refer to a conversation had by a brother he knows, and a businessman in another nation (possibly Japan - this was before the earthquake and tsunami), in which the businessman acknowledged the blessings of God upon a Christian nation. He had a question, though: would it be possible to transfer the principles which led to such prosperity - but without the religion which had fostered it?

Upon reading your post, it occured to me that perhaps 'Communist-Socialist' theorisers had consciously adopted aspects of 'Christian' ideology, precisely to make it more acceptable at home - before trying to export it elsewhere. I suspect you know that a Jesuit was in charge of guiding the UN to an understanding of the benefits of certain kinds of 'spirituality'; but when you look at a photo of the UN's 'Prayer' room, it's clear the religion it has adopted, is not 'Christian'.


But as Christians, we are stuck with the facts of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, which do apply to us.

According to your doctrine you follow, we as Christians are NOT to seek our "own 'rights', whether those rights include personal possessions, or the right to seek legal redress in a court or to defend yourself from harm...". What that's saying is, that we as Christians have no authority in rights concerning our 1) possessions; our 2) right to seek legal redress; our 3) right to defend ourselves.

Here are some of them.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren.

2 Corinthians 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and [yet] possessing all things.

Romans 13:and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. 11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

As I consider the last two from Matthew and Luke, it is clear Jesus is indicating that in these cases, they are not to resist arrest - as He would demonstrate - and no-one should 'fight' for them, except God. That's quite an ally. It really tests where our hearts lie, to contemplate these things. May we resolve to know His grace, and obey His leading.

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran, :)

'If that isn't Communist-Socialist doctrine directly from Christ's enemies, then I'll eat your hat.'

Twice now, I've heard Carter Conlon refer to a conversation had by a brother he knows, and a businessman in another nation (possibly Japan - this was before the earthquake and tsunami), in which the businessman acknowledged the blessings of God upon a Christian nation. He had a question, though: would it be possible to transfer the principles which led to such prosperity - but without the religion which had fostered it?

Upon reading your post, it occured to me that perhaps 'Communist-Socialist' theorisers had consciously adopted aspects of 'Christian' ideology, precisely to make it more acceptable at home - before trying to export it elsewhere. I suspect you know that a Jesuit was in charge of guiding the UN to an understanding of the benefits of certain kinds of 'spirituality'; but when you look at a photo of the UN's 'Prayer' room, it's clear the religion it has adopted, is not 'Christian'.


But as Christians, we are stuck with the facts of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, which do apply to us.



Here are some of them.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [suffer yourselves to] be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren.

2 Corinthians 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and [yet] possessing all things.

Romans 13:and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law. 11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

As I consider the last two from Matthew and Luke, it is clear Jesus is indicating that in these cases, they are not to resist arrest - as He would demonstrate - and no-one should 'fight' for them, except God. That's quite an ally. It really tests where our hearts lie, to contemplate these things. May we resolve to know His grace, and obey His leading.

Problem is, Communism-Socialism is only a tool. And the ones actually behind it are the "synagogue of Satan".

The goal of world Communism or world Socialism, whichever one wants to call it (it's the same ideology), is control over ALL nations and peoples upon this earth. So naturally, its ideology is going to directly attack ANY and ALL ideas of nationality. One of the methods they use for that is to declare the idea of national sovereignity as a seed from Fascism, i.e., extreme right-wing thinking. In the 1900's in the U.S. a globalist trying to enlist the people of the United States into a world governing body like the League of Nations would have been close to being tarred and feathered, and then run out of town. That's why the U.S. Congress and Senate rejected joining the League of Nations idea. It took a Soviet spy planted in the U.S. State Department by the name of Alger Hiss who was the U.S. representative at signing the U.S. onto the United Nations Charter in San Fransisco, Ca. to join with Communist globalists in control of the U.N. structure. Per the Communist's own declarations, the plan for "one world government" is from them and their attache traitors that dwell in the West.

Christ Jesus told us about that working long ago, through His Apostle John in Revelation 12-17. The Father has ordained it to happen. That doesn't mean we are to take part in it, especially as more and more of our brethren in the Churches become so deceived themselves to accept it because it's the popular thing to do.

God's Word full strength never has never... been popular. He is calling out a people that will make a stand for Christ in the 'evil day' (when the "one world government" system comes to the full). So the brethren can choose to bury their heads in the sand, or they can decide to make a stand for Christ Jesus in these last days. That stand is not with literal weapons of war. But that's not the issue of our God-given right to self-defense either.

The majority here won't have to be concerned about the Communist's secret police in America coming into our homes at midnight to jerk you out of bed, and haul you off to today's camps being built on U.S. Army bases under the FEMA administration, to either be re-educated or executed. The reason is because the majority of the brethren will be deceived by the "one world government" system, even some of them thinking Christ's Kingdom has come on earth then. But make no mistake, it's the Communist system that's in full control on earth today, governed by the "synagogue of Satan" that's behind it.

 

[lawrance]

Orthodox Jews ? i thought only this lot knew what they were on about and the rest of the Jews were a backward mob of delinquents and fools.
I can't see anything really wrong with being a Orthodox Jew and i think they make a fantastic Christian when the penny drops seeing the light.
But if they are lead astray by the so called satanic radical mob of Zionist they are a problem. but i think true orthodox have there head screwed on right not to be lead astray by so called nosferatu rat bags.

 

[Episkopos]

Veteran sounds like he is espousing "Manifested Sons of God" doctrine or "Dominionism". It does not matter that "Christian" ministers and "Pastors" picked up weapons to blow away the British. I am sure there were British "Christians" and "Pastors" killing the American "Christians" and "Pastors", too.

Let's just forget the Gospel. What power does it have? Let's drop a couple of MOABs on our "enemies". Are "we" any different than Islam? Convert or die!!

Axehead

I remember a speech by Pat Robertson...whoever disgrees with him is either a commie or gay...or both!!!! Commie pinkoes are usually easy to spot while wearing pink tinted glasses. ;)

Problem is, Communism-Socialism is only a tool. And the ones actually behind it are the "synagogue of Satan".

The goal of world Communism or world Socialism, whichever one wants to call it (it's the same ideology), is control over ALL nations and peoples upon this earth. So naturally, its ideology is going to directly attack ANY and ALL ideas of nationality. One of the methods they use for that is to declare the idea of national sovereignity as a seed from Fascism, i.e., extreme right-wing thinking. In the 1900's in the U.S. a globalist trying to enlist the people of the United States into a world governing body like the League of Nations would have been close to being tarred and feathered, and then run out of town. That's why the U.S. Congress and Senate rejected joining the League of Nations idea. It took a Soviet spy planted in the U.S. State Department by the name of Alger Hiss who was the U.S. representative at signing the U.S. onto the United Nations Charter in San Fransisco, Ca. to join with Communist globalists in control of the U.N. structure. Per the Communist's own declarations, the plan for "one world government" is from them and their attache traitors that dwell in the West.

Christ Jesus told us about that working long ago, through His Apostle John in Revelation 12-17. The Father has ordained it to happen. That doesn't mean we are to take part in it, especially as more and more of our brethren in the Churches become so deceived themselves to accept it because it's the popular thing to do.

God's Word full strength never has never... been popular. He is calling out a people that will make a stand for Christ in the 'evil day' (when the "one world government" system comes to the full). So the brethren can choose to bury their heads in the sand, or they can decide to make a stand for Christ Jesus in these last days. That stand is not with literal weapons of war. But that's not the issue of our God-given right to self-defense either.

The majority here won't have to be concerned about the Communist's secret police in America coming into our homes at midnight to jerk you out of bed, and haul you off to today's camps being built on U.S. Army bases under the FEMA administration, to either be re-educated or executed. The reason is because the majority of the brethren will be deceived by the "one world government" system, even some of them thinking Christ's Kingdom has come on earth then. But make no mistake, it's the Communist system that's in full control on earth today, governed by the "synagogue of Satan" that's behind it.

What is your view of the "communism" of Acts chapter 2? Would you say that the conspiracy began right there is Jerusalem?

 

[HammerStone]

Well, FYI, I don't like our current aggressive foreign policy.

However, what makes you think that states, such as those in Matthew 5, apply at the personal, private level AND to the nation-state level? For instance, the OT speaks to not murdering, but God commanded the Israelite army to kill, war, and slaughter numerous times? The implication is that there is a difference. (And there is.)

Obviously, I'm asking this question to make a point, but the application of logical on total non-resistance relies on an extremely literal reading of the sermon on the mount. For instance, it says be kind to those who persecute you, but it sure doesn't say anything about how we act when loved ones around us are persecuted.

Would you stand by as a wife, daughter, girlfriend, friend or some other woman were raped? It's a terrible image, but I see a great breakdown in Biblical logic if the answer is yes, so I like to get this out on the table. It tells me if I need to go further in debate or not.

 

[lawrance]

Orthodox Jews ? i thought only this lot knew what they were on about and the rest of the Jews were a backward mob of delinquents and fools.
I can't see anything really wrong with being a Orthodox Jew and i think they make a fantastic Christian when the penny drops seeing the light.
But if they are lead astray by the so called satanic radical mob of Zionist they are a problem. but i think true orthodox have there head screwed on right not to be lead astray by so called nosferatu rat bags.

Veteran what do you think.

 

[Axehead]

Well, FYI, I don't like our current aggressive foreign policy.

However, what makes you think that states, such as those in Matthew 5, apply at the personal, private level AND to the nation-state level? For instance, the OT speaks to not murdering, but God commanded the Israelite army to kill, war, and slaughter numerous times? The implication is that there is a difference. (And there is.)

Obviously, I'm asking this question to make a point, but the application of logical on total non-resistance relies on an extremely literal reading of the sermon on the mount. For instance, it says be kind to those who persecute you, but it sure doesn't say anything about how we act when loved ones around us are persecuted.

Would you stand by as a wife, daughter, girlfriend, friend or some other woman were raped? It's a terrible image, but I see a great breakdown in Biblical logic if the answer is yes, so I like to get this out on the table. It tells me if I need to go further in debate or not.

I don't think anyone would stand by and watch something like that happen. They would jump on the perp and try to subdue him or knock him out if they could. Many die trying to protect their loved ones because the perps usually have weapons or plan their attacks when the husband is not home.

But, before we go any further, would you please listen to this? The story of Margie Mayfield, kidnapped from a KMART parking lot and then try to ascertain what walking in the Spirit and walking as Christ walks, means to you.

http://www.mapministry.org/upload/audio/Serial_Killer_Surrenders_to_Christ.mp3

Axehead