Why you cant lose your salvation.

[Episkopos]

Brother, I think you may mean 'Masseur'. The ending with an s is feminine!

And this from the UK? Must be the proximity to France!

 

[dragonfly]

And this from the UK? Must be the proximity to France!

Um... I think you may have us mixed up!

 

[aspen]

I do not think we can lose our salvation, but I certainly believe we can forfeit it - if we could not, we would not have freewill.

 

[Episkopos]

Um... I think you may have us mixed up!

Are you not in the UK?

I do not think we can lose our salvation, but I certainly believe we can forfeit it - if we could not, we would not have freewill.

Exactly!

 

[dragonfly]

Are you not in the UK?

I am. Perhaps I didn't understand your comment.... no worries. Let's move on....

 

[Episkopos]

I am. Perhaps I didn't understand your comment.... no worries. Let's move on....

Doesn't the chunnel connect up the UK with France?

 

[dragonfly]

Doesn't the chunnel connect up the UK with France?

Yes, but I would have that as my last choice of route. Too much tunnel for me!

 

[John Zain]

Kidron ... You need to research the experiences of those whom Jesus has shown Hell.

MANY people have been taken there, and brought back here after being told to warn us!

Christians are there who have not allowed the Holy Spirit to sanctify them unto holiness.
Jesus warned us we must be holy to get into His kingdom.
Jesus warned us we must be perfect to get into His kingdom.
And unforgiveness ... no one gets into Heaven who has any unforgiveness!

Would anyone like to see a list of these verses?

You have been lied to and deceived by your mortal enemy, Satan and his demons.

 

[Rach1370]

Hi Rach,

Are you of the opinion that a saved person cannot sow to the flesh, and reap corruption rather than everlasting life? Gal 6:7, 8.

I'm of the opinion that those who 'choose' to turn away from Christ, never really knew Him or had the Spirit dwelling within them in the first place.
I believe Galatians 6:7-8 speaks of that exactly. "Anyone who sows to the flesh"?...they are putting their faith in themselves. They may 'claim' Christ, they may go to church and say all the right things, but when it comes down to it they do not have a regenerated heart. Jesus will say 'I do not know you' and God will not be pleased of all they've done 'in his name' when he was not in their hearts.

Let me ask you something. You're saved, right? You've known the amazing grace, love, mercy and hope of knowing Jesus. Is there anything at all that could tear you away from that?? Because I tell you...nothing under the sun could make me turn away. Give me cancer...and I'll just need him more. Give me the terribly tragedy of losing my entire family...how on earth could I survive something like that without Jesus to lean on? I tell you....anyone who could walk away from what Jesus gives us...in all circumstances...has not really known him at all.

Rash i may as well rob steal rape become someone that cons people out of their house and life savings, and hey why not, i will be saved, OSAS. i have nothing to lose do i ?

Ah...if you were doing those things I think its a safe argument that you've never met Jesus in the first place.

As for the 'incidental' sin in our lives...the sin that bubbles up in our soul despite our fighting against it...if our salvation was dependant upon that, then we would never, ever, be saved. It would be a hopeless case. You're basically saying that salvation is only possible if we're good enough to 'earn' it, or 'keep it'. That's putting it on you, not on the gift of grace from God. It's completely unbiblical.

 

[Axehead]

Yes, but I would have that as my last choice of route. Too much tunnel for me!

Well, too late to edit dragonfly, but the way Jesus and the Gospel are taken advantage of today, my former word may be appropriate.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rach,

Thanks for your reply. I agree there are those who have never met the Lord, who play a religous role for as long as it's convenient, but when their comfort zone is threatened, they just melt away, having something more important to do, but I also believe there are others who did meet Him who fall away. I read in another thread what you've been through to have your children. Wow! Well done! They didn't know anything when they were born, though, although they're remarkably resilient, and they are fragile and dependent. The difference between a baby and a new Christian is, the new Christian is not used to being dependent and can make and carry out many wrong choices, quite easily.

I know the Lord tries to keep a hold of them, but that doesn't always prevent them from falling into a worse situation than before they met Him. I also believe the same Christians can return to the Lord eventually, with more focus on the purpose of salvation. They don't need to be born again again - but, they do need to repent, recommit, reform, and obey the exhortations in the New Testament. If they had never had the first experience, they would have no standard by which to judge the difference, and God lets them use the same determination which took them away from Him, to reverse wrong decisions (where possible) and make straight paths for their feet. Lastly, some never do return.

Hi Axehead,

Well, too late to edit dragonfly, but the way Jesus and the Gospel are taken advantage of today, my former word may be appropriate.

I'm sorry. :mellow: I just couldn't deal with the image I was getting of a female Godhead! I don't think your point is entirely lost, though.

 

[Kidron]

All a Christian need to do in order to lose their salvation is to reject God's grace. And yes, there are Christians who have converted to atheism and even to other religions.

One you have accepted God's "Grace", your sins are no longer held against you
Try reading your bible..........try Romans Chapter 4, so that you have a clue as to what is going on.

So, there is no more "sin", with regard to being judged for it after you die, as this is reserved for the lost who have never been born again..
Therefore, "rejecting God's grace", is just a sin, similar to murder, or hate, or greed, or lust, or cheating on your taxes, or
calling into work "sick", when you are not really sick, or watching "R" rated movies.
So, all this "stuff", is just "forgiven sin", that God knew you would commit even before he saved you.
So, "rejecting" grace:"", while this sounds like really authentic way to "lose your salvation", is actually nothing more then
any other sin, and is not held against you as Christ has DIED for that sin as wall as all the others you might commit and do.

Now, if you "reject grace", then this mean that you mind has become very very carnal and you are obviously very backslid.
So what happens to this person is that God will judge them according to Hebrews 12:6 and if this does not return them then
they will just wander around out of fellowship with God and end up with a life that is created by their choices without any of
God's light to help them............and eventually they will die, ............and go to heaven just like the person who was saved and
lived for God every single day of their life.

See, the reason any of you get to go to heaven, is because God has created a Salvation that you cant lose.
Once its applied its sealed, and after this, you are going to heaven.
Done deal.
And some of you who are very self righteous worry about......"well, if they didnt live it, then they dont deserve it"
And this shows that you dont have a clue as to what salvation actually is.

Salvation justifies the unglodly.;, not the good.
And who is the ungodly?
You are.
If you were not ungodly, then you would not need Jesus to save you.



K

Hi Kidron,



It was written to Hebrew Christians. It doesn't apply to Hebrew non-Christians, because they are already due for God's wrath. Eph 2:3.

Anyone who is saved, who endures to the end as a faithful soldier of the cross, will be saved. No doubt about it.

You dont endure to the end to be saved.
That would be works, and you are not saved by works or enduring anything.
You are saved by the blood of Christ being applied to your sins when you trust Christ by Faith and receive him the same.

So your scripture is not a scripture that is a part of the church age, but its a scripture that is a related to the tribulation and
how God will deal with THOSE people.




K

...maybe a summation of 'simple'??



I think scripture make my points for me:

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (Romans 5:1-11 ESV)

What I see here...that salvation is something we have now, and nowhere does it suggest it's probably only temporary due to our sinful natures. I see that we rejoice in the fact that while we were at our worst (sinful and unsaved, rather than just sinful but saved, as we are now) Jesus secured, obtained, justified, reconciled us to God, pouring the promised Holy Spirit into us. What I don't see that saying, or even suggesting, is that the Holy Spirit is given on a 'revolving door' basis...here today, but gone tomorrow, so you better shape up!

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5 ESV)

Here? I see this saying that we don't need to worry about 'holding on' to our salvation by our own efforts (which is silly anyway, when we consider we were never good enough to earn it in the first place...how on earth could we hold on to it!) Our hope is in God, who by his power is guarding our inheritance. It is imperishable, undefiled and unfading.

As far as 'turning away' from our salvation, I debate even that. To do so we would have to be mightier than the will and strength of God...and I believe 'no one' kind of covers it all.

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30 ESV)

Good job ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

and isnt it remarkable that so many who say they have "trusted Christ" then turn right around on a public forum and try to insist that
He is not enough to save them and keep them saved...

The fact is..........the only thing that saves you is the only thing that can keep you saved.
And we have no part in it......as God did it ALL through Christ.
And if you think this is not the truth, then you are trying to save yourself.
If you are trying to save yourself, then you have not trusted Christ to do it, and that is a big problem that you need to solve asap.





K

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Regarding people who are trying to save themselves by "enduring to the end" or by "repenting of every sin" because they have not trusted Christ to SAVE THEM..
well yes Episkopos, they have erred from the truth.

And for those who think they can lose their salvation, who have not understood that this is impossible, well, they have >greatly erred< from the truth as they are denying Christ his finished work on the cross that he said was "finished", or "accomplished" in some lesser versions.
you are correct.




K

 

[Rach1370]

Hi Rach,

I know the Lord tries to keep a hold of them, but that doesn't always prevent them from falling into a worse situation than before they met Him. I also believe the same Christians can return to the Lord eventually, with more focus on the purpose of salvation. They don't need to be born again again - but, they do need to repent, recommit, reform, and obey the exhortations in the New Testament. If they had never had the first experience, they would have no standard by which to judge the difference, and God lets them use the same determination which took them away from Him, to reverse wrong decisions (where possible) and make straight paths for their feet. Lastly, some never do return.

See, I would agree with...some of this, but I tend to think its actually making my point for me!
Firstly, I sort of object to the sentence "the Lord tries to keep hold of them"...to me it implies that the Lord couldn't do what he wanted or was attempting to do. I'm sure you're not actually saying that he's incapable of those things...but my concern for the 'loss of salvation' issue is essentially that...people are doubting God's word and His strength.

Secondly, the idea that a 'true' Christian would fall away, and then return to God again...not needing to be 'reborn'...to me actually affirms OSAS! God predestines us to be saved by grace...he elects us. Ephesians is quite clear about that...before the dawn of time he looked down through the ages and said "you...you will be mine". Should a person spend years stumbling, confused, hurting (as we all do at some point or another) does it really call into question God's election of him? If he doesn't need to be 'born again' again, we must then allow that God still has a firm hold on this person's ultimate goal and soul.

Now, I have absolutely no problem with the whole "need to repent, recommit, reform and obey". In fact a Christian should be doing those things every day, assurance of salvation or no. But these actions are done in response to our salvation...not to keep it or regain it. My faith is in God...not just to give me salvation, but keep it. Please see the verses I've posted before. It is God is His strength and His promises that is keeping this future secure for me. That's the best darn news ever...that means that I don't need to rely on myself in any way at all. My life is spent living in light of the NT, the 'works' laid out for me, out of love for Jesus, not out of fear that I will lose was is already paid for and given to me by grace.

I would also like to quickly point out that the bible never mentions that once we are 'born again' that we can 'die again' and be stuffed back into that old body....repeat ad infinitum...which it would be, because we stuff up on a daily, if not hourly basis. So you see, I cannot see scripture teaching anything else, because we are told that salvation...in it's entirety is from and reliant on God...not us.

I know many here disagree...obvious by the responses here, which to be honest, surprises me. They think that by preaching a OSAS message we are giving people false hope? I honestly believe that if someone turns their back on Jesus for good, they were never truly saved in the first place. There may be many, many people sitting in church who claim to be saved who are not. This is not necessarily the fault of the preacher or the other saved members, who give the good news of Jesus accurately. And honestly...saying to someone that God is the author, perfecter (Heb 12:2) and guarder (1 Peter 1:3-5) of salvation and faith is quite biblical. Should we be instead saying: "God gives us salvation, but don't trust in him after that, it's up to you to keep it or toss it away."? Or perhaps: "It doesn't matter that God predestined you to be His before the creation of the world...if you want out, he can't stop you...or if you mess up too much he'll change his mind about wanting you"? I'm sorry, but I don't see those options as particularly good news, and I can't see the bible telling us those things either.

Does OSAS mean we sit on our butts or live the 'fast' life? No..."all of a Christian's life is one of repentance", of loving others, of looking to Jesus as we take each step. But it's all done in response, not in effort to keep or earn back.

 

[Kidron]

It is possible to turn away from God because we have the free will to do so.

And if you do, you've done nothing but sinned, and Christ has already paid for it.
Christians turn away from God, constantly...
Everytime they pursue their will, for example, instead of his.
There are Christians right this very second, PASTORS and Priests who are fornicating, right this very second, and they are, at this time "turned away from God"
as they are busy with something else.


There are Christians right this very second who Hate God and Jesus, because of a loved one who didnt get healed, or a child who has died.
And they are as saved, during this HATE, as they were the second they believed in Christ, and will remain so, till they meet Christ in heaven.



[font=lucida sans unicode']Of the 12 Apostles that Christ chose, Judas Iscariot did turn away;[/font]

[font=lucida sans unicode']He was chosen to play a part, as Christ said,........"one of you is a DEVIL"....so, even tho he was an apostle, he was also a little something different..[/font]
[font=lucida sans unicode']K[/font]eep in mimd that Jesus said he is a devil, vs has a devil.
And also, did he ever believe on Christ?........was he ever Born Again?
Not quite.




But that is only the beginning. Now that Christ has redeemed us by giving us this fellowship with Him, we must continue to run the race toward sanctification (1 Corinthians 9:24-27). When we are sanctified, then we will be glorified like Christ.


Did you ever read 1Corinthians 1:30?.........if you did you noticed that you are already sanctified "in Christ"......as well as "sinless", "righteous", etc.




K

Hi Rach,

Are you of the opinion that a saved person cannot sow to the flesh, and reap corruption rather than everlasting life? Gal 6:7, 8.

Dfly,

everytime you sin you reap corruption.
every.......single..............time.



K

 

[lawrance]

Kidron kidron kidron !
Boy ! Catholics are not saved and can't be saved as long as they are with the Catholic Church ? is that true.

 

[Kidron]

Yes, you can lose your salvation-

Its impossible to be unborn again, and its impossible for God to take back his "free Gift".

And may i say that you have posted the absolute worst translations of scriptures ive ever read.
They sound as if they were translated by a teenager who has read the bible exactly once...
Perhaps Mary gave you these?.
Ive no idea what version of the bible or theological study you are using here, but OMG, you need to put it all in the dumpster asap.


Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

This verse has nothing to do with salvation, and you posted it because you are just trying to argue when you dont have a clue.
Typical of you.
This verse has only to do with discerning a person by noticing their lifestyle, as this is a mirror of who they are and what they are.


Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.


This verse is not talking about Christians, as they have already made Jesus "savior and Lord" long before the "last day".



Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Horrible translation.
Worst i have ever seen or read.
And the fact is, to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as described in that scripture, you'd have to be in the presence of Jesus 2000 years ago while he is talking, and you would have to be a Pharisee.
You dont qualify for the verse, and neither does any Christian.


Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.

Whatever catholic "study" you are using to cut and paste from, is just awful
And this verse is not talking about a Christian, as God does not choose them, they choose HIM.
Perhaps you didnt know that salvation is given to "ALL that will come", and "ALL that would call upon the name of the Lord".



Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

These are people who are listening to Christ at that time, and he has not died on the Cross for anyone's sin's yet.
Perhaps you didnt realize this?
Ask Mary later about it when you are in your mystical trance.



Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

"stewardship",... same as "discipleship"... happens AFTER you are saved, and have nothing to do with BEING saved or staying saved.
You are not saved by being a good steward, or a bad steward, or by being a steward...........you are saved by RECEIVING the FREE GIFT of salvation that is offered to everyone.


Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."

This is acid trip theology you have there.
or maybe the crack pipe?
unbelievable.



John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.


No one is "predestined" to be saved, as this eliminates FREE WILL.
So, dont confuse the foreknowledge of God, who KNOWS who will be saved even before they are born, with God choosing some and not choosing others.
God "chooses" those who take Christ.
That is the situation.



John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

Christians spend most of their time doing what they want, and spend very little time doing anything for God.
So, as this is the case, if God was going to get rid of Christians because they spend so little time with him, or doing his will...........well, he'd have to get rid of us all at some point.
But that cant happen, as the salvation he has sealed us with, keeps us saved based on what Christ did for us, and not what we do.



John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

this is more Acid trip theology, that makes no sense, and that is your specialty.
you have a real talent for finding some obscure verse and retranslating into into the dynamically obtuse heresy.


John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.


Unbelievable nonsense.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The fact is, you come to Jesus, ONCE by faith, and you are SAVED ONCE and forever.
You dont keep coming to him for Salvation over and over..
When you take Chris ONCEt, God takes you.........forever.



John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.


Actually, it means whomever sees the son and believes............shall be saved.
And once you are saved, you are as saved as you can be, and this is for eternity because your salvation is based on what JESUS DID, and not what you do.
Try to understand that, if possible.


John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.

And what does this have to do with losing your salvation? = nothing.


John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Christians walk away from God all the time............they sin all the time...........they grow cold in heart toward God all the time.
This has nothing to do with Salvation, which is a free Gift of Righteousness that is given to you by faith, which is never taken away.
It is not offered to you based on your behavior, it is offered to you based on your FAITH ALONE.


Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).


"lampstand", is not Salvation.
No worries.


Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

All Christians sin........but fortunately we have been given the gift of Righteousness so that God does not any longer see us as sinners, but only as "redeemed".


Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Now read the book of the Revelation and notice why a name isnt in the book of life.
The only reason is because, =a person has not been born again.
In other words, they died rejecting Christ's pardon.


Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

There is no "crown of salvation".......so, whatever theological study you are using, you need to burn it.
Need a match?


Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Yet another verse that has nothing to do with my thread, or the topic of "you cant lose your salvation".
Congratulations.


Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Conquer what?.........visions of Mary?.........a heard of Buffalo?...........an Olympic gold medal in the 5000 meter hurdles?



Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

Please throw away your confused theological study and the bible that birthed it, as the horrible translations and interpretations are just the worst ive ever read.
Neophyte,no wonder you are as lost as a monkey in a mall.
And just to help you out.........that scripture you are mangling here, has to do with anyone who will misuse and misinterpret and mess with the scriptures found in the book of the Revelation.
And i might add, you have just spent an entire post doing just that.
There is a warning for you.




K

Rash i may as well rob steal rape become someone that cons people out of their house and life savings, and hey why not, i will be saved, OSAS. i have nothing to lose do i ?

Yes thats correct........once Jesus has died for your sins, you are eternally "purged" of them all.
Apparently you thought that only the sins you committed before you were saved are forgiven?
Is that what you are trying to based your phony "i can lose it", argument on?

Listen, name for me the sin that you can commit after you are saved that God who is Omniscient didnt know you would commit when he saved you.

The answer is....

God knew of all the sins you were going to commit after you were saved, and prepared a savior who died on a cross for them ALL.


Mr Rberger, you sinned today, and you'll sin tomorrow., so, does it matter regarding the SIZE of them?
You seem to think that if your little sins are ok, then Aspen's BIG sins are not.

So, the problem is not big or little sins, the problem is that you dont have any idea what God has done for you, apparently.
You think that your salvation is based on your DEEDS , and if that is so, then you have never understood what the Cross is all about.

And finally, if you are a Christian who lives in sin, there are things you can lose, but SALVATION is not one of them.

You can lose your testimony.
you can lose your health.
you can lose your job, family, and life.

So, you can absolutely lose some things if as a Christian you dont live according to the principals of the bible, however, as your salvation is not based on your WORKS, then your WORKS cannot undo the Grace of God which is the FREE PARDON of all your sins...........past, present, and future.




K

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rach,

I know exactly what you're saying and I agree with every part except where you make it sound that there is a point when we applied for salvation - a choice we made to turn from sin - and after that the element of choosing God is removed because now He keeps us in spite of any way in which we might exercise - or attempt to exercise - the meaning of reversing that choice to be saved.

to me it implies that the Lord couldn't do what he wanted or was attempting to do. I'm sure you're not actually saying that he's incapable of those things...but my concern for the 'loss of salvation' issue is essentially that...people are doubting God's word and His strength.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, or, they get distracted by what their senses desire to engage. I'm not saying that God can't keep us. I'm saying we need to keep agreeing and co-operating with God on HIs terms, for His keeping power to affect us. We cannot, for instance, choose not to retain God in our knowledge, and expect Him to keep us anyway. That is the point of Paul's thesis in Romans 1:28 and 2 Thess 2:10, 11, 12. And it's from here that I'm saying there is a way back. (Romans 2:4) In another thread, 1 Cor 8:11 was mentioned .... '.... save a brother from death'.

That's the best darn news ever...that means that I don't need to rely on myself in any way at all. My life is spent living in light of the NT, the 'works' laid out for me, out of love for Jesus, not out of fear that I will lose was is already paid for and given to me by grace.

God will not take eternal life away from us if we are abiding in Him, but He has boundaries. John 15:6. Note... 'and men gather them...' This is very true. Those who don't abide in Him make thesmselves a prey. Romans 11:21, Matt 7:19, Jeremiah 22:7. God doesn't change.

I would also like to quickly point out that the bible never mentions that once we are 'born again' that we can 'die again' and be stuffed back into that old body....repeat ad infinitum...which it would be, because we stuff up on a daily, if not hourly basis.

I didn't say that. I agreed with you that a person can be born again only once, but as usual we have the grace of God to contend with in Paul's statement: Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

So you see, I cannot see scripture teaching anything else, because we are told that salvation...in it's entirety is from and reliant on God...not us.

The fulfilment of His word to Eve, in bringing forth the one who would bruise the serpent's head, and His accomplishment of that bruising, is indeed all His own work. Isa 53:10, 11, 12. But, in the same way as Adam would have needed to continue to consent to God's word in spite of another belief system having been presented to him, even so we are obliged to continue turning away from idolatry, that we may be continuously consenting to God's work in us, to become His willing Bride. Our encounters with Christ must change us.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 12:9b '... shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live? This implies that if we are not in subjection to Him, we might die. I hate to say it, but spiritual children can die if they rebel again.

It is imperative that we 'serve the living God'. That is the present continuous part of 'being saved'. That done, He will be able to acknowledge us to His Father. If we deny Him, He will deny us. Just as there was a timeline before our 'salvation' (moment of first faith in Christ) there is a timeline after it which matters more to us, and to God.

No..."all of a Christian's life is one of repentance", of loving others, of looking to Jesus as we take each step. But it's all done in response, not in effort to keep or earn back.

Yes, it's a response, and our ultimate salvation is conditional upon our active obedience to His will Matt 7:21 at the expense of every other alternative. John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. This is not just a head thing - there must be a whole-being, on-going response. I know this what you're saying. All I'm adding is, if there is not a whole-being, on-going response, one may disqualify oneself from eternal life.

 

[Kidron]

I agree with you when you say "So lets just keep this simple."
You "Once Saved, Always Saved" people are in for a rude surprise when you stand face to face with God.
Especially if your declarations on this subject lead to the loss of a soul who based their salvation opinion on your teachings.

WE eternally secure people who read that Jesus IS eternal life, and if we have him we Have eternal life, are only slightly amused by people,
often Catholics, who choke on Grace while trying to substitute WORKS for it.

See, we eternally secure people read in 1st John 5:12 that if we have the SON we have eternal life.
And we know we have the Son, as we have received him according to his word.


The reason you believe that you can lose your salvation and are worried by my Thread is because you dont TRUST CHRIST to keep you saved.
You are trusting something else, and THAT Foreigner..............is not working in your favor.
Realize that the reason you cant honestly say........."yes, i am trusting CHRIST ALONE to KEEP ME SAVED".....is because you aren't.
SEE IT?
This is why you have no sense of peace in your heart that everything is "OK", regarding where you will end up after you die.
See, you've based your salvation on YOURSELF< and that is not salvation, that is self-righteousness.
And as you dont really know what that word means, i'll explain it to you....
It means you are trying to >make yourself right< with God based on YOUR LIFESTYLE and DEEDS INSTEAD of trusting in Christ to make you right and keep you right with GOD.
And THAT, my reader, is the same as a BUDDHIST or any other "RELIGIOUS" person, and has nothing to do with SALVATION based on the free gift of forgiveness and righteousness.

And regarding your comment about people that could be mislead....
I'll have you consider that its saved and redeemed people like me who are trying to talk other believers INTO THEIR SALVATION, while its cultist and other associated theologically bent
rascals like you who are trying to talk them OUT of their Salvation.

I'll leave you to think about that.



K

An unrighteous person sees everything one way. But if we can repent of sin by turning to God then we can also repent of turning to God by turning to sin. Are the ways of the Lord not equal...or are they falsely balanced as men's ways???

For more understanding of the freedom that God gives to His creation I suggest this book...

THE BIBLE!

Episkopos...

you sin every day of your life.
you are already forgiven, if you have trusted Christ.
This is why you are "eternally secure"...

If you have not really trusted Christ and Christ alone for your eternal life, then this would explain why you dont have any
eternal security.
My good advice for you is to stop trying to save yourself by your works and lifestyle and instead take the Free Gift of Righteousness that God through
Christ has offered you.
This is called Salvation.



K

Hi Kidron,

I get the difference you're making about the life of a disciple, but the disconnect with your thesis begins around here:



This 'cannot possibly remember all the sins' does not apply to the disciple at all. That's why 1 John 2:1 is relevant.

Only the sinner applying for salvation the first time, brings all his sins in one big bundle. After that, if he's received the Holy Spirit and if he lives and walks in the Spirit, he is not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. He is fulfilling (the) righteousness (of the law). Rom 8:4.




You are absolutely right. I repent to have a change of attitude to that particular one sin and to be forgiven.


And just in passing, I don't agree that John wrote the first few lines of his letter not to the addressee. :huh: No-one does that!
The way you cut pieces of scripture out for the sake of the doctrines you espouse is spiritually unhealthy. Beware! No matter who taught you those ways, you should seek the Lord for yourself until He has shown you how scripture really fits together.




Kidron, I may have misunderstood some of what you've been writing on this forum, but if you really understand the verses from which you've quoted phrases above, why didn't you pick haz up on the verses which he used in post # 2 in your thread How to understand your sins.... ?
http://www.christian...iew your sins

This is a serious request. Please go back to his post and check every scripture and the logic he's offered, and post a response to it, in that thread. Because you didn't comment on it at all, but went straight to a response to post # 3, I, perhaps wrongly, assumed you'd agreed with post # 2 - which is why I've written some of what I've written to you in various threads. (If I need to apologise, I will.)

However, today, you seem to be acknowledging that a disciple can sin, and, that repentance is called for by scripture, and that forgiveness will be forthcoming. I don't agree (still) that tomorrow's sins have already been forgiven, because they haven't been committed yet. I know why it's tempting to think that way, but scripture doesn't even suggest it once. We'll leave that for now, though.

Over to you and that old thread to check it out, if you wouldn't mind, please?

Dfly,


Jesus died once for the SIN of the world.
His is a one time payment for the entire thing.

So, sins are gone...........and in their place is.............. Romans 4:5,6,11, & 24.

And after this has happened to us as soon as we are born again, then Romans 5:1 >>>>>>>>into Romans 3:28 is the end of our story.


Check those verses in the order i gave them.



God bless,


K

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos...

you sin every day of your life.
you are already forgiven, if you have trusted Christ.
This is why you are "eternally secure"...

If you have not really trusted Christ and Christ alone for your eternal life, then this would explain why you dont have any
eternal security.
My good advice for you is to stop trying to save yourself by your works and lifestyle and instead take the Free Gift of Righteousness that God through
Christ has offered you.
This is called Salvation.

The modern false gospel in a nutshell along with the reasoning that actually fools a lot of people...those not written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kidron,

If you want credibility with God (let alone other believers) then you have to restrict yourself to the claims of His word - and not add anything...

Apparently you thought that only the sins you committed before you were saved are forgiven?

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There is, of course, a way to deal with sins (should one sin) after one begins to be saved, but it is not through the assumption that one is already forgiven. The Atonement has already taken place, but until by the Spirit its benefits are again applied to my need for cleansing again, I am not forgiven, yet.