The Sanctification of Man

[Axehead]

A.W. Tozer -

“There is an evil, which in its effect on the Christian religion, may be more destructive than Communism, Romanism, and Liberalism combined. It is the glaring disparity between theology and practice among professing Christians. So wide is this gulf between theory and practice in the church, that an inquiring stranger who chances upon both would scarcely dream that there was any relation between the two of them. An intelligent observer of our human scene who heard the Sunday morning message and later watched the Sunday afternoon conduct of those who heard it, would conclude that he had been examining two distinct and contrary religions. It appears to me that too many Christians want to enjoy the thrill of feeling right but are not willing to endure the inconvenience of being right. And so the divorce between theory and practice becomes permanent in fact. Truth sits forsaken and grieves till her professed followers come home for a brief visit, but she sees them depart again when the bills come due.”

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

It appears to me that too many Christians want to enjoy the thrill of feeling right but are not willing to endure the inconvenience of being right.

Like having a lamp but forgetting the oil...

 

[dragonfly]

Like having a lamp but forgetting the oil...

Small point, but relevant - Like being a lamp, but forgetting the oil...

 

[aspen]

oh goodie, another millstone......

'Hey I know how we can separate ourselves from Rome even more! Let's make Christianity even harder by second guessing every Christian thought that we ever, actually agree on! First, try this millstone on around your neck - everyone's doing it!'

 

[whitestone]

oh goodie, another millstone......

'Hey I know how we can separate ourselves from Rome even more! Let's make Christianity even harder by second guessing every Christian thought that we ever, actually agree on! First, try this millstone on around your neck - everyone's doing it!'

As a Christian I understand Axe Epi and Dragon, but what are you talking about aspen2?

 

[dragonfly]

Hey aspen,
I think Tozer's humming your tune.

 

[Episkopos]

oh goodie, another millstone......

'Hey I know how we can separate ourselves from Rome even more! Let's make Christianity even harder by second guessing every Christian thought that we ever, actually agree on! First, try this millstone on around your neck - everyone's doing it!'

2Co_10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

 

[aspen]

All you guys do is critique each other's faith. The only song Tozer is singing is the Reform classic - 'Christians today aren't authentic. We need to be more opinionated! More self deprecating! More confrontational towards our backsliding brethren!' Instead of progress in the individual Christian's sanctification - it is a perpetual call for a spiritual do-over.

Where does it end? Every word that is written here by people who have confessed Christ as their Lord and Savior is ground under the millstone - and then based on the opinion of some faceless critic, the person who is known for their faith is thrown into the fire.

Living the Christian life is supposed to be free - it is supposed to include a lite burden.....we are called to love God and our neighbor, not eat our own kind!

I remember having my doctrine and faith challenged by people I barely knew, on a weekly basis at church - 'have you really given your life to Christ? No, REALLY?

Do you see how retarding this process of asserting the dialectic is to our spiritual growth? How are we supposed to grow in love for God and our neighbor if we are having to reassess the first step in our walk with Christ every time a 'brother' challenges us? It is like having to participate in a new wedding ceremony every time you have an argument with your spouse, or starting over in Kindergarten every time you screw up at work.....

That is what I am talking about. You guys are more concerned about the purity of doctrine and your vain attempts at stamping out hypocrisy than a brother or sister's process of sanctification.

Why are you so concerned about the mechanics of Christianity? All of these attempts at purification are just producing insecure Christians who never get passed the first step OR bitter, sarcastic defensive Christians who attack others rather than love others - why are you making it so difficult? When God is concerned about the performance (heart change) of the Christian He has justified and is sanctifying!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

I thnk I hear your cry.

Yesterday, I found myself thinking about a few things Paul said, and Jesus' instructions to Peter.


1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:

not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. ​

John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these?

He said to him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him, Feed my lambs. ​

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He said to him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that

I love thee. He said unto him, Feed my sheep. ​

17 He said to him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time,

Lovest thou me? And he said to him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. ​

Jesus said to him, Feed my sheep. ​

18 Verily, verily, I say to thee, When thou wast young, thou girded thyself, and walked whither thou would: but when thou shalt

be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou would not. ​

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith to him, Follow me.

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said,

Lord, which is he that betrays thee? 21 Peter seeing him said to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? ​

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.



The message is this: if you know what God has called you to become (a son) and do (serve), keep moving along in your ministry.

If you have genuine concerns about the foundation of your relationship with God, get back to first principles - worship God, love your neighbour as yourself, and love the brethren as Christ loved you - self-sacrificially - so that you experience what John describes, here -

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 '... If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.


There is, also, much to be said for the kind of body ministry described in 1 Cor 14 (keeping chs 12 and 13 in mind), because when God speaks through the gifts of the Spirit, there is an additional assurance of one's relationship with Him, and His general pleasure in fellowshipping with us, and usually the musical ministry brings yet another aspect of communion with God into vital being. This place of worship is where bondages get broken, captives get released and one's spirit is genuinely lifted into a different dimension of the presence of God.

In all these thoughts, I am also thinking of myself, and how I used to be a 'rescuer', regardless of whether a body desired to be rescued. Remember, (Acts 3), the man had been sat at Gate Beautiful for all the years of Jesus' ministry, but the Father didn't send Him there to heal him. Jesus himself pointed out that there had been many widows in Israel, but Elijah had been sent only to Sarepta. Paul knew what he had been sent to do, and he could not get distracted by all the other possible ministries.

Also, this: when Jesus spoke to Peter, saying 'Follow thou me', that was the creative word in Peter's heart, which even if Peter (John 21:3) had been hankering after his old profession, as he received the word, could not but cause him to follow Jesus. (Rom 10:17)




Does that make sense to you?

 

[Episkopos]

All you guys do is critique each other's faith. The only song Tozer is singing is the Reform classic - 'Christians today aren't authentic. We need to be more opinionated! More self deprecating! More confrontational towards our backsliding brethren!' Instead of progress in the individual Christian's sanctification - it is a perpetual call for a spiritual do-over.

Where does it end? Every word that is written here by people who have confessed Christ as their Lord and Savior is ground under the millstone - and then based on the opinion of some faceless critic, the person who is known for their faith is thrown into the fire.

Living the Christian life is supposed to be free - it is supposed to include a lite burden.....we are called to love God and our neighbor, not eat our own kind!

I remember having my doctrine and faith challenged by people I barely knew, on a weekly basis at church - 'have you really given your life to Christ? No, REALLY?

Do you see how retarding this process of asserting the dialectic is to our spiritual growth? How are we supposed to grow in love for God and our neighbor if we are having to reassess the first step in our walk with Christ every time a 'brother' challenges us? It is like having to participate in a new wedding ceremony every time you have an argument with your spouse, or starting over in Kindergarten every time you screw up at work.....

That is what I am talking about. You guys are more concerned about the purity of doctrine and your vain attempts at stamping out hypocrisy than a brother or sister's process of sanctification.

Why are you so concerned about the mechanics of Christianity? All of these attempts at purification are just producing insecure Christians who never get passed the first step OR bitter, sarcastic defensive Christians who attack others rather than love others - why are you making it so difficult? When God is concerned about the performance (heart change) of the Christian He has justified and is sanctifying!

Whom God loves..He coddles????

 

[Axehead]

All you guys do is critique each other's faith. The only song Tozer is singing is the Reform classic - 'Christians today aren't authentic. We need to be more opinionated! More self deprecating! More confrontational towards our backsliding brethren!' Instead of progress in the individual Christian's sanctification - it is a perpetual call for a spiritual do-over.

Where does it end? Every word that is written here by people who have confessed Christ as their Lord and Savior is ground under the millstone - and then based on the opinion of some faceless critic, the person who is known for their faith is thrown into the fire.

Living the Christian life is supposed to be free - it is supposed to include a lite burden.....we are called to love God and our neighbor, not eat our own kind!

I remember having my doctrine and faith challenged by people I barely knew, on a weekly basis at church - 'have you really given your life to Christ? No, REALLY?

Do you see how retarding this process of asserting the dialectic is to our spiritual growth? How are we supposed to grow in love for God and our neighbor if we are having to reassess the first step in our walk with Christ every time a 'brother' challenges us? It is like having to participate in a new wedding ceremony every time you have an argument with your spouse, or starting over in Kindergarten every time you screw up at work.....

That is what I am talking about. You guys are more concerned about the purity of doctrine and your vain attempts at stamping out hypocrisy than a brother or sister's process of sanctification.

Why are you so concerned about the mechanics of Christianity? All of these attempts at purification are just producing insecure Christians who never get passed the first step OR bitter, sarcastic defensive Christians who attack others rather than love others - why are you making it so difficult? When God is concerned about the performance (heart change) of the Christian He has justified and is sanctifying!

When I read the Bible, I receive the words from the Holy Spirit, (GOD), Aspen. I don't receive them from Jeremiah, Isaiah, Paul, or John.

It has been really helpful to me that when I listen to men or read their words, I don't read them as if from Aspen, or dragonfly, or Prentis, but I look to see if God is speaking.

I think this would help you, too.

Axehead

God speaks through His Body for the edification of His Body.

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,

I thnk I hear your cry.

Yesterday, I found myself thinking about a few things Paul said, and Jesus' instructions to Peter.


1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:

not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. ​

John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these?

He said to him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him, Feed my lambs. ​

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He said to him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that

I love thee. He said unto him, Feed my sheep. ​

17 He said to him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time,

Lovest thou me? And he said to him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. ​

Jesus said to him, Feed my sheep. ​

18 Verily, verily, I say to thee, When thou wast young, thou girded thyself, and walked whither thou would: but when thou shalt

be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou would not. ​

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith to him, Follow me.

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said,

Lord, which is he that betrays thee? 21 Peter seeing him said to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? ​

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.



The message is this: if you know what God has called you to become (a son) and do (serve), keep moving along in your ministry.

If you have genuine concerns about the foundation of your relationship with God, get back to first principles - worship God, love your neighbour as yourself, and love the brethren as Christ loved you - self-sacrificially - so that you experience what John describes, here -

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 '... If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.


There is, also, much to be said for the kind of body ministry described in 1 Cor 14 (keeping chs 12 and 13 in mind), because when God speaks through the gifts of the Spirit, there is an additional assurance of one's relationship with Him, and His general pleasure in fellowshipping with us, and usually the musical ministry brings yet another aspect of communion with God into vital being. This place of worship is where bondages get broken, captives get released and one's spirit is genuinely lifted into a different dimension of the presence of God.

In all these thoughts, I am also thinking of myself, and how I used to be a 'rescuer', regardless of whether a body desired to be rescued. Remember, (Acts 3), the man had been sat at Gate Beautiful for all the years of Jesus' ministry, but the Father didn't send Him there to heal him. Jesus himself pointed out that there had been many widows in Israel, but Elijah had been sent only to Sarepta. Paul knew what he had been sent to do, and he could not get distracted by all the other possible ministries.

Also, this: when Jesus spoke to Peter, saying 'Follow thou me', that was the creative word in Peter's heart, which even if Peter (John 21:3) had been hankering after his old profession, as he received the word, could not but cause him to follow Jesus. (Rom 10:17)




Does that make sense to you?

YES!!

Thank you for reading my post and providing a relevant and meaningful reply!

I remember as a kid, I was in the cub scouts - unfortunately, I was a terrible cub scout because I could never get started on my work in order to earn the badges necessary for advancement. My dad was frustrated because I was perceived by him to be lazy. In fact, I was simply paralyzed because every time I started a project I would screw it up according to my own opinion. Instead of simply jumping in and completing a project, I would stop and try to start over. I didn't realize that cub scout projects were designed to complete, not contemplate - in all reality, they were almost impossible to screw up enough to have to start over again.

I view my walk with Christ in the same manner - I live it without regrets. I do not believe in do-overs. Reformation is only possible by God - I can barely love enough in the current system! I made a promise to myself as a kid - I will jump in with two feet and not be afraid to be wrong - I will make thoughtful decisions and if things turn out badly, I will apologize and make corrections for the future. I will not long for the past.

When I read the Bible, I receive the words from the Holy Spirit, (GOD), Aspen. I don't receive them from Jeremiah, Isaiah, Paul, or John.

It has been really helpful to me that when I listen to men or read their words, I don't read them as if from Aspen, or dragonfly, or Prentis, but I look to see if God is speaking.

I think this would help you, too.

Axehead

God speaks through His Body for the edification of His Body.

Hmm...that is interesting.

Here's the problem, I hear God saying the same thing all the time - it is like a steady drumbeat; 'Love through all problems', 'Love through all situations', 'Whatever unfairness, evil, loss, and failed expectation life throws at you - love perfectly'. In my walk with God, circumstances are really not the point - everyone experiences their own share of pain, which may be unique to their personality and ability to respond positively. All we need to do is love perfectly in response to all life brings us - not saying it is easy or should be forced. All feelings must be evaluated and dealt with before we can respond authentically with love. Circumstances of life are just the props in the play of life - love is the story line and the eventual redemption.

So, as interesting as the circumstances are that were faced by the men from the Bible that you mentioned - it is their response that is the my focus. Did they submit to God by loving Him and others? Did they fail? Lots of stories in the Bible include the failures of men and women to love perfectly - they are not supposed to be emulated by us; they are a cautionary tale! Do you really think Jacob was supposed to steal Esau's blessing from his father?? Of course not! Jacob was operating on a very selfish level - he was thinking of himself alone. God would have delivered a blessing to Jacob if he had waited on Him in faith. The good thing is that God always brings about His plan, even in the face of human sin. So I agree that God is speaking to us from the Bible, but you have to remember, He is speaking to us through the strengths and weaknesses of human beings. I am not saying that the bible contains error in it's mechanics - I am saying that it includes human sin and instances where the human who sins is still favored by God. The same is true in the case of His church, BTW.

 

[Episkopos]

When I read the Bible, I receive the words from the Holy Spirit, (GOD), Aspen. I don't receive them from Jeremiah, Isaiah, Paul, or John.

It has been really helpful to me that when I listen to men or read their words, I don't read them as if from Aspen, or dragonfly, or Prentis, but I look to see if God is speaking.

I think this would help you, too.

Axehead

God speaks through His Body for the edification of His Body.

Oh yeah! Discerning the body!!! :)

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

After several attempts, I've found this thread again! I wanted to acknowledge your reply to my post.

YES!!

Thank you for reading my post and providing a relevant and meaningful reply!

I remember as a kid, I was in the cub scouts - unfortunately, I was a terrible cub scout because I could never get started on my work in order to earn the badges necessary for advancement. My dad was frustrated because I was perceived by him to be lazy. In fact, I was simply paralyzed because every time I started a project I would screw it up according to my own opinion. Instead of simply jumping in and completing a project, I would stop and try to start over. I didn't realize that cub scout projects were designed to complete, not contemplate - in all reality, they were almost impossible to screw up enough to have to start over again.

I view my walk with Christ in the same manner - I live it without regrets. I do not believe in do-overs. Reformation is only possible by God - I can barely love enough in the current system! I made a promise to myself as a kid - I will jump in with two feet and not be afraid to be wrong - I will make thoughtful decisions and if things turn out badly, I will apologize and make corrections for the future. I will not long for the past.

I, too, was baffled by projects other people had designed. I could never get them started. I seem to remember learning the names of a LOT of trees, for one badge, and boiling a potato for another. And I didn't learn to keep moving on for a long, long time.

Here's the problem, I hear God saying the same thing all the time - it is like a steady drumbeat; 'Love through all problems', 'Love through all situations', 'Whatever unfairness, evil, loss, and failed expectation life throws at you - love perfectly'. In my walk with God, circumstances are really not the point - everyone experiences their own share of pain, which may be unique to their personality and ability to respond positively. All we need to do is love perfectly in response to all life brings us - not saying it is easy or should be forced. All feelings must be evaluated and dealt with before we can respond authentically with love. Circumstances of life are just the props in the play of life - love is the story line and the eventual redemption.

I think I need to learn this 'love perfectly'.

It always fascinates me how differently God deals with us all, in the sense that He prioritises what we should learn and experience, and He knows what He intends to achieve by the circumstances He ordains for us. It really is a wonderful mystery. There was a time I tried to work for an agency, and the burden of choosing when and when not to work became heavier and heavier, until I took a permanent job again!

Do you really think Jacob was supposed to steal Esau's blessing from his father?? Of course not! Jacob was operating on a very selfish level - he was thinking of himself alone. God would have delivered a blessing to Jacob if he had waited on Him in faith.

Now this is a very interesting question. I started out to write that I didn't agree, but, the more I think about it, the more 'selfish' seems to fit the bill. However, God seems to have let Jacob do his own thing, knowing how Jacob would end up working for his dishonest uncle, and receiving back a taste of his own medicine until he was thoroughly cured. I've been through my own variety of this, and it's not until one comes to the place of asking, like the prodigal son, 'how did I end up in this pig pen?' that one remembers, 'ah yes... it was all my own idea'... :huh: that one appreciates how perfectly God has tailored the details of His chastenings to one's own variety of willfulness.

So I agree that God is speaking to us from the Bible, but you have to remember, He is speaking to us through the strengths and weaknesses of human beings.

Yes, and no. Axehead meant something else - to do with how the Holy Spirit interprets deeper truths about God to us, as we read.

I am not saying that the bible contains error in it's mechanics - I am saying that it includes human sin and instances where the human who sins is still favored by God.

The reason for the sins, is the fallen nature, and Jesus Christ the Redeemer has not yet been revealed. God, though, is demonstrating that He wants to be with His people, and that His people want to be with Him, and also informing us of many of His attitudes, which never change. The psychology which He exercises remains the only psychology worth understanding - to this day - only, His judgments are perfect in every situation with every person. Amazing! It's quite comforting to begin to know Him through those old accounts.

 

[IanLC]

Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof! (2 Timothy 3:5) and for the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but power (1 Cor 4:20) and seek ye the kingdom of God and His Righteousness!(Matthew 6:33). Many of us do not want the inconvience of living holy and sanctified and others try to live sanctimonious and self righteous! God sanctifies us the Holy Spirit progresses that work and will completly and entirely sanctify us! [background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23) God grace and love are products of His nature of Holiness! For there is only One Way and that is Jesus revealed in His sacrifice and sanctification! [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it. (Isaiah 35:8)![/background]

 

[aspen]

Dragonfly - thanks for your thoughtful and thought provoking response! I appreciate your willingness to engage in sarcastic free dialog - it makes it easy to learn from you

I agree with you that Axehead was talking about the Holy Spirit speaking to us through the scriptures on a very deep and often personal level - all I was trying to say is that God sometimes uses the 'salvaged' parts of our humanity to communicate His message to us, rather than modelling correct behavior by describing a Bible character's bad behavior - hope that makes sense.

Here is a bit more clarification - Jacob did not receive his father's blessing because he took a short cut by using his own devices to acquire it through dishonest gain - if he did, we would be called to model that behavior by adopting an 'ends justifying the means' ethical standard. Instead, God worked around Jacob's sin by allowing him to receive the blessing and actually brings about a larger message - 'with God, even the second born or a small band of desert nomads can be chosen by God and be powerful and blessed', which leads to Jesus's teachings - 'the first will be last and the last will be first'. God always brings about a larger truth - just like He did in the Garden; through A&E's sin, God taught humanity the highest form of love - forgiveness - not that it was worth the Fall, but in the end, we actually become better at loving God and others because of God's Grace.