The Lamb of God

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winc

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did John the Baptist get it right or wrong - does the Lamb of God take away the sin or sins of the world - winc
 

Isreal

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According to Aramaic scripture which I personally believe is the primacy of scripture, the word used was "sins".

"sin" can be plural in some cases

"he was full of sin" is plural and sins in that case wouldn't sound correct
 

winc

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According to Aramaic scripture which I personally believe is the primacy of scripture, the word used was "sins".

"sin" can be plural in some cases

"he was full of sin" is plural and sins in that case wouldn't sound correct

so does the Lamb of God take away the sin of Adam or all sins - please simply answer the simple question simply - winc
 

dragonfly

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so does the Lamb of God take away the sin of Adam or all sins

He dealt with them both, spiritually speaking, but you won't get your 'sins' forgiven until you ask Him to, and you won't have victory over 'the sin' which causes you to commit sins, until you become at-one with Him in His death on your behalf - baptised into His death - and raised in Him to walk in newness of life as a new creature, full of the Holy Spirit. There was a lot going on at Calvary!
 
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winc

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He dealt with them both, spiritually speaking, but you won't get your 'sins' forgiven until you ask Him to, and you won't have victory over 'the sin' which causes you to commit sins, until you become at-one with Him in His death on your behalf - baptised into His death - and raised in Him to walk in newness of life as a new creature, full of the Holy Spirit. There was a lot going on at Calvary!

methinks there is a lot going on here as well - like the good thief and the others who had their sins forgiven without Baptism etc and before Calvary - winc
 

dragonfly

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methinks there is a lot going on here as well - like the good thief and the others who had their sins forgiven without Baptism etc and before Calvary - winc



Indeed.... You're pretty sharp!
7034.gif
 

Isreal

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Yeshua's is the ramson for ever child of Adam.
Are their others who are not of Adam? Maybe so..

If you read Romans chp 5 carefully you should see that because of the righteousness of our Messiach every son of Adam shall be justified. And because of Adam sin we were all cursed.
In other words "The cursed of Adam is reversed" through the lamb who was perfect enough to live according to the Law without fall.

Verse 18 is the clearest scripture. So yes... "Behold the lamb of Elohim that taketh away all the sins of the world."


The very same message is written to the Corinthians,.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Of course this is not main stream teaching.

.
 

dragonfly

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Of course this is not main stream teaching.


No-one can expect to be saved without coming to Christ with repentance, believing in Him; but He did die for the sin of the whole world.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Might as well also ask how the creator made the tree that supplied the wood for the cross before Jesus even was crucified.

It amounts to the same thing as asking how the thief would be in paradise simply because Jesus said so.

Salvation was established right from the beginning.
 

Isreal

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No-one can expect to be saved without coming to Christ with repentance, believing in Him; but He did die for the sin of the whole world.
Did you read Romans chpt 5?
Look at verse 18.
Oh and 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

The point is all will bow a knee and every tongue will confess one day..
Bowing is submission & confessing leads to salvation
 

dragonfly

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Hi Isreal,

I'm aware you are implying that all men will be saved. My point is that only those who are 'in Christ' will be saved, and, that the New Testament has a great deal to say about what being 'in Christ' means and looks like and feels like and acts like.

Simply confessing that Jesus Christ, whom God has exalted on High and given a name above every other name, is Lord, is the kind of mental assent which acknowledges who is king or president. It is not sufficient connection with Him, to save a person.

They have to believe with their heart into Him for their own salvation unto righteousness. This necessitates a whole-hearted turning from sin and all its values (idolatry of all kinds). That is not what either Isa 45:23 or Phil 2:8, 9, 10, 11 is saying.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

To believe as described in Romans 10, there needs to be an understanding of Christ's sacrifice for sin. Isa 45:25 brings Phil 2:8 into focus with regard to Rom 5:1, 2 - justification by faith:

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham..... 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith..... 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Rom 6:3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We know that demons who 'believe and tremble' are not going to be saved. Confessing that Jesus is Lord is a mere statement of fact. It's not an act of faith in any way. James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

In fact, the very compulsion involved in the unwilling confession described, goes entirely against God's invitation to believe freely.
 

Pelaides

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During the passover,when the Angel of death killed the first born of everyone egypt,only those with the blood of the lamb were spared,Its going to be the same way on judgement day,Those without the blood of Jesus will perish.Its no coincedence that Jesus was crucified during the time of the passover.Angels are like soldiers they follow Gods commands,only the followers of Jesus will be saved.
 
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winc

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Did you read Romans chpt 5?
Look at verse 18.
Oh and 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

The point is all will bow a knee and every tongue will confess one day..
Bowing is submission & confessing leads to salvation


here I throw my hat in with you,after long consideration - see and understand,that which is almost impossible for most people to accept or understand that Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world in spite of ourselves and grasp how is to be poosible that everyknee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour - stay a while and come back home or stay close - btw read all of 1 Corinthians 15 and not just 21-22 - winc
 

dragonfly

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Hi winc,

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


There is nothing about Jesus becoming 'Saviour' to people 'in spite of' themselves. Rom 2:4
 

Isreal

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Hi Isreal,

I'm aware you are implying that all men will be saved. My point is that only those who are 'in Christ' will be saved, and, that the New Testament has a great deal to say about what being 'in Christ' means and looks like and feels like and acts like.

Simply confessing that Jesus Christ, whom God has exalted on High and given a name above every other name, is Lord, is the kind of mental assent which acknowledges who is king or president. It is not sufficient connection with Him, to save a person.

They have to believe with their heart into Him for their own salvation unto righteousness. This necessitates a whole-hearted turning from sin and all its values (idolatry of all kinds). That is not what either Isa 45:23 or Phil 2:8, 9, 10, 11 is saying.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

To believe as described in Romans 10, there needs to be an understanding of Christ's sacrifice for sin. Isa 45:25 brings Phil 2:8 into focus with regard to Rom 5:1, 2 - justification by faith:

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham..... 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith..... 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Rom 6:3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We know that demons who 'believe and tremble' are not going to be saved. Confessing that Jesus is Lord is a mere statement of fact. It's not an act of faith in any way. James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

In fact, the very compulsion involved in the unwilling confession described, goes entirely against God's invitation to believe freely.
I don't disagree much with you here. except the name of our Messiach was not Jesus but Yeshua. Jesus is Greek for Sons of Zeus.
Who knows who they really worship?
And Elohim who is the creator of the universe and the El of Abraham was named YHWH(Yahweh) forever and not god or BaalGad (Lord God) that Canaanite deity of fortune.
Gad is pronounced Gawd/God


H1171
בּעל גּד
ba‛al gâd
bah'-al gawd
From H1168 and H1409; Baal of Fortune; Baal Gad, a place in Canaan: - Baal-gad.
This is the deity of the Kenites and Canaanites whom most of Israel fell for and the cult of Gad was huge.
Israel was cast out because of their worship of Gad and yet today... We've been lied too.



They was and is no "J" sound in Aramaic or Hebrew.
Satans people have been toying with the truth for over 2000 years.

Rev 12:9

With that said I'm not sure salvation comes from calling on Jesus which I have and besides the point.

You did not study Romans 5?
Yes believing in the Ha Messiach, named Yeshua which menas salvation brings salvation now.
Romans 5 says all sons of Adam shall be saved by the rigtheousness of our Messiach.



Yeshua is the name above every name.
Yeshua is name given to the son of man in the OT..





In Isaiah 12:2,3.
Here SALVATION is mentioned three times and it is the name of our Saviour The reader will be much blessed by reading these glorious verses in his Bible, but let me give them as they actually read in the original Hebrew with Yeshua(Jesus) as the embodiment and personification of the word SALVATION:

"Behold, might (or, God the mighty One) is my YESHUA ( His eternal existence); I will trust and not be afraid:, for YHWH is my strength and my song; He also is become my YESHUA .... And the WORD (Yeshua incarnate) became flesh, and dwelt among us. (John 1: 14). ... Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of YESHUA (Salvation)Water is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and it brings Joy.

1 Chron. 16:23
Sing to YHWH, all the earth, Proclaim from day unto day His Yeshua(salvation)


Mat 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Yeshua (in the Aramaic scripture which is what they spoke): for he shall save his people from their sins.

Yeshua is saving his people from their sins.. All of them. Every last Yod of them.
And ALL Israel shall be saved, as it is written. Did you get that memo?

Verify these things with Strongs concordance and stop believing the doctrines and bad translations of men.
 

winc

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Hi winc,

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


There is nothing about Jesus becoming 'Saviour' to people 'in spite of' themselves. Rom 2:4

see Romans.7 and it seems you have not researched 1 Corinthians 15 as suggested - winc
 

dragonfly

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Hi winc and Isreal,

Thank you for your posts to me. I will use the SacredNameBible when quoting, Isreal. www.sacrednamebible.com

I have, in the past, winc, researched 1 Cor 15 as suggested, and the same difficulty arises as with all the other references to 'all' 'in Christ'. The eternal work accomplished by Messiah for the whole of mankind - which I fully agree He did accomplish through His life, death and resurrection - is appropriated by individuals only by faith. Gal 3:7, 8, 9, 14, 27, 29 Many, many Israelites worshipped idols and practised abominations instead of worshipping Yahweh. They were cut off. Paul says in 2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Look at what Jesus said in John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world
.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Jesus makes a clear distinction between those who believe and those who do not, as does Paul.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of ELOHIYM without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of ELOHIYM which is by faith of YAHSHUA MASHIYACH unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[that is: no difference between Jews and Gentiles.]

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of ELOHIYM;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in MASHIYACH YAHSHUA:

25 Whom ELOHIYM hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of EL;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in YAHSHUA
.

Beware of any gospel which says those who chose to turn away from Yahweh - Gen 26:5 - will be saved with those who believed.

It is true that Yeshua's blood redeemed the whole of creation, and cleanses the heavenlies as well as the souls of those who believe, but there are many verses in scripture which indicate that Yahweh has given every person who ever lived or will live, sufficient evidence of His presence, goodness, truth and love, that upon their rejection of Him, He will reject them. This is included in Messiah's teachings.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be saved.
 

Isreal

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Hi winc and Isreal,

Thank you for your posts to me. I will use the SacredNameBible when quoting, Isreal. www.sacrednamebible.com

I have, in the past, winc, researched 1 Cor 15 as suggested, and the same difficulty arises as with all the other references to 'all' 'in Christ'. The eternal work accomplished by Messiah for the whole of mankind - which I fully agree He did accomplish through His life, death and resurrection - is appropriated by individuals only by faith. Gal 3:7, 8, 9, 14, 27, 29 Many, many Israelites worshipped idols and practised abominations instead of worshipping Yahweh. They were cut off. Paul says in 2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Look at what Jesus said in John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world
.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Jesus makes a clear distinction between those who believe and those who do not, as does Paul.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of ELOHIYM without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of ELOHIYM which is by faith of YAHSHUA MASHIYACH unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[that is: no difference between Jews and Gentiles.]

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of ELOHIYM;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in MASHIYACH YAHSHUA:

25 Whom ELOHIYM hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of EL;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in YAHSHUA
.

Beware of any gospel which says those who chose to turn away from Yahweh - Gen 26:5 - will be saved with those who believed.

It is true that Yeshua's blood redeemed the whole of creation, and cleanses the heavenlies as well as the souls of those who believe, but there are many verses in scripture which indicate that Yahweh has given every person who ever lived or will live, sufficient evidence of His presence, goodness, truth and love, that upon their rejection of Him, He will reject them. This is included in Messiah's teachings.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be saved.
Dividing the word properly takes time.
One thing you are not yet seeing like most of the world is John 3:16 saves the believer now.
.Those who never are drawn are still justified through the righteousness of Yeshua. Romans 5:18

People see death as he finish line. Isn't it possible that YHWH can save everyone later?

The apostles asked Yehsua "but who can be saved?"
He didn't really answer them but said "with man it is impossible but with YHWH all things are possible:"
All things could mean that YHWH shall save every son of Adam? That is what Romans 5 says over and over.
Man on the other hand has a difficult time seeing YHWH as salvation for all.

We have to stop and acknowledge the apparent contradictions and then we can rightly divide the word.

Yeshua is salvation
Shlama


.
 

winc

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Dividing the word properly takes time.
One thing you are not yet seeing like most of the world is John 3:16 saves the believer now.
.Those who never are drawn are still justified through the righteousness of Yeshua. Romans 5:18

People see death as he finish line. Isn't it possible that YHWH can save everyone later?

The apostles asked Yehsua "but who can be saved?"
He didn't really answer them but said "with man it is impossible but with YHWH all things are possible:"
All things could mean that YHWH shall save every son of Adam? That is what Romans 5 says over and over.
Man on the other hand has a difficult time seeing YHWH as salvation for all.

We have to stop and acknowledge the apparent contradictions and then we can rightly divide the word.

Yeshua is salvation
Shlama


.

many questions are pressing at the same time for real answers so wait awhile to see how I THINK ALL WILL BE SAVED - THERE ARE MORE SURPRISES IN STORE - MEANWHILE PONDER ARE THERE MORE HUMANS ALIVE TODAY THAN HAVE DIED IN THE PAST - winc
 

dragonfly

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Hi Isreal,

I'd be interested in what you have to say about the exclusions made by Paul and Peter, (and John), and, through Jesus revelation to John, that not everyone's name will be found in the book of Life.


1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness.


Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither [whatsoever] works abomination, or [makes] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.


Many thanks.