All this talk of Born again.... what is it? Who is? and when does it occur?

[Xian Pugilist]

Seriously.

Everyone claims to be born again.
The most commonly used definition of "Born Again" has only existed in the faith for a little over 150 years.... Which for me, personally, is problematic. That definition, if told to Paul, would have drawn a real odd face of query.

In a room of 50 people, I once got 85 different answers asking this question.

Let the fun begin. Who knows what it is?

 

[Nomad]

Such a weighty topic deserves a thorough treatment. Here it is:

Regeneration​

What does it mean to be born again?
by Wayne Grudem ​

EXPLANATION AND SCRIPTURAL BASIS​

We may define regeneration as follows: Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. This is sometimes called “being born again” (using language from John 3:3–8). Read the rest here - http://www.monergism...ion_grudem.html​

This is also found in the hard copy of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, Chapter 34, pp. 699 - 708

 

[rockytopva]

In his Republic, Plato illustrates the doctrine of the divided line through an allegory of the cave in which Socrates describes a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives. The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them, and begin to ascribe forms to these shadows. The shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality. Having a prisoner released and journeying upward through the cave into the actual outdoors reflects the gaining of knowledge. Upon gazing at the sun he beholds the chief good and the highest form of light and energy. Having seen these things he feels the responsibility of liberating his friends from their imprisoned minds. To become enlightened then means to pass from opinion to enlightenment. To progress from what seems real to what is actually real.

To escape the cave is to become born again. Which is available by the power of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ our Lord.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aiy1Zp_AUXA

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I'd be happy to discuss with Wayne Grudem. Get him to come in the chat.

Such a weighty topic deserves a thorough treatment. Here it is:

Regeneration​

What does it mean to be born again?
by Wayne Grudem ​

EXPLANATION AND SCRIPTURAL BASIS​

We may define regeneration as follows: Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. This is sometimes called “being born again” (using language from John 3:3–8). Read the rest here - http://www.monergism...ion_grudem.html​

This is also found in the hard copy of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, Chapter 34, pp. 699 - 708

 

[Rach1370]

"Born again" is the act of regeneration. When God saves us, takes from us our old, dead heart, and places within us a new one. The Holy Spirit comes to live inside us and our standing in God's eyes go from guilty and deserving of death, to alive under the grace of Christ. This is also called Justification.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Hello Rach. Here's to a better shot at it in this discussion.

BTW, Rache would be a norlandic male name... and Rach is short for both that and for Rachel etc.... And I'm guessing there are names with RACH at the first I never considered.... do I reference you as her or him?

Ok, I agree it's the act of regeneration.

BUT WHEN you are regenerated is a big discussion.

We agree on the heart and mind changing part too. And the Spirit living IN US. I agree that's WHEN it occurs, that IS regenerated.

HOWEVER, As best I can tell justification comes first, then the process of regeneration begins. That's evident in Paul discussing with people to run the race. If they were Regenerated at atonement/justification what race would they have to run it would be finished. The problem is, most folks don't know there is anything more than salvation in the plan as nothing more is taught but fire, brimstone, and euphoric gold streets....

Another example, a milk drinker is justified, but they aren't at meat yet which is regenerated.

So, a lotta you folks are claiming to be born again, at a point I think scripture says we are still running the race.

Romans 8:9a is a great, short, cheesy, example. I still have a sinful nature jerking my chains. I'm not yet indwelled by the Spirit.
Gal 5:16 is another, I still give into temptation so I'm not yet walking by the Spirit.
And if I ever walked BY the Spirit once, how could I leave that state without giving into the temptation to do so? Which the verse says I couldn't do.

SO as I see it, ONCE I walk by the Spirit, (Or in 1 john walk in the light...) I'm there, I have arrived, I'm not leaving that state.

I expect this is so different from how you see it it's almost threatening..... What do you say?

"Born again" is the act of regeneration. When God saves us, takes from us our old, dead heart, and places within us a new one. The Holy Spirit comes to live inside us and our standing in God's eyes go from guilty and deserving of death, to alive under the grace of Christ. This is also called Justification.

 

[Elle]

Most people today have been given God's Holy Spirit, but most don't use it to lead them into all truth. Most prefer to listen to their preachers teach the word of God instead of letting Yeshua teach them. Most of these preachers are leading the flock astray and straight into the Great Tribulation. To be "born again" which is a bad translation and should have been translated "born from above", means just that. You are born of the spirit as Yeshua explained to Nicodemus. Yeshua explains to the 7 churches what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong. We are called to come out of Babylon (false churches), but many will not. Many think the woman of Revelation 12 is Mary, Israel, or the church. It is actually the Holy Spirit, she has been given to many, but she is travailing in pain to give birth to those who are born from above. The man child of Revelation 12 is not Yeshua, but rather those who have been born of the Holy Spirit. This manchild (144,000/2 witnesses) will ascend to heaven at the mid-point of the tribulation. The woman (Holy Spirit) flees into the wilderness to be fed for 3.5 years. These are the people who heeded the preaching of the 144,000 that Satan cannot touch. They feed the Holy Spirit by seeing and hearing the truth. The remnant of the Holy Spirit refuse to hear the truth and are given over to Satan for 3.5 years to test and purify them. Most will eventually be born from above, but will be martyred. At this present point in time, there are actually very few who are born from above, but many will follow. To be born from above is to be one with God.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Elle, The funny thing is, if people were really taught by that Spirit, I think they would admit that Paul said in Ephesians 4 that Spiritual knowledge and maturity comes from WORKS led by the Church and not theology.

As soon as I hear someone speaking against scripture, I immediately find their spiritual claims in question.

 

[Elle]

"Elle, The funny thing is, if people were really taught by that Spirit, I think they would admit that Paul said in Ephesians 4 that Spiritual knowledge and maturity comes from WORKS led by the Church and not theology.

As soon as I hear someone speaking against scripture, I immediately find their spiritual claims in question. "

It does indeed require works, we are to pick up our cross and follow Yeshua. Once we lay our hand upon the plow we are never to look back and involve ourselves with the ways of this world. We are called to use discernment, judge by the fruit, obey the commandments, love our enemy without seeking vengeance, help feed the poor and visit those in prison amongst others. The latter 2 I mentioned poor and prison, does not necessarily mean physically poor and physically in prison, though it can. It means those who are poor in spirit and are in captivity to their sin. Yeshua did instruct us to shake the dust of our robes as a testimony against them and walk away if they refused to hear. Faith without works is DEAD.

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[Xian Pugilist]

Ok, see, I gotta problem with that. The poor in spirit Inherit the reward. You are teaching that's bad to be strong. The story of the rich young ruler teaches the example of poor in spirit...

So, right off the bat in my understanding you are not in line with scripture.... so that puts my caution flag up. The problem with everyone saying that they are taught by the spirit and that they know, is everyone thinks they are right, yet everyone disagrees on what right actually is.

I am sure my cat'lik buddies are secretly clapping to hear that from a protestant.

 

[aspen]

It occurs often in a Christian's walk with Christ - whenever a Christian is practicing their sanctification by loving God and neighbor and God gives them a glimpse of their purpose and afterlife.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Oh yeah, you are teaching personal growth through self achievement, self control stronger spirit. The vss I referenced weren't't about works, they were about growth. You say get control, and stuff like that, the vs says you become as spiritually mature as christ via works for others, not personally managed growth.

 

[Elle]

Xian you said:
"Ok, see, I gotta problem with that. The poor in spirit Inherit the reward. You are teaching that's bad to be strong. The story of the rich young ruler teaches the example of poor in spirit... "

I assume this comment is in reference to when I said that the poor doesn't necessarily mean physically poor, but rather spiritually poor. If so, I am not sure how you figured that I am teaching that it is bad to be strong. I never said that at ALL, you assumed that. We are to feed the poor in spirit with the knowledge God has given us. These poor in spirit are not lacking the spirit, they are poor in spirit, they are not rich in spirit yet. When we feed them with God's word we help strengthen their spirit. We are to encourage our brethren to stay the course. As Matthew 5:3 says "Blessed (are) the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." The rich, young ruler is poor in spirit, he is not yet rich in the spirit. He is rich in material goods, but lacks the richness of the spirit. Yeshua wanted him to put his faith in God and not money.

So, right off the bat in my understanding you are not in line with scripture.... so that puts my caution flag up.

You should always be cautious of anything, anyone tells you. It is your responsibility to prove all things, search the scriptures like the Bereans did.

"The problem with everyone saying that they are taught by the spirit and that they know, is everyone thinks they are right, yet everyone disagrees on what right actually is."

You shall know them by their fruits, actions speak louder than words.

I am sure my cat'lik buddies are secretly clapping to hear that from a protestant.

Actually I am an ex-Catholic and never a Protestant. I have come out of Babylon and no longer affiliate with any denomination.

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[martinlawrencescott]

I have come out of Babylon and no longer affiliate with any denomination.

Most denominations try to define how the Holy Spirit works anyway, which kinda goes against how the Holy Spirit works... I think I posted somewhere, some years back, about the Dancers and Sitters in Christ, in reference to this. That is in case you wanna look that up.

 

[Elle]

"Most denominations try to define how the Holy Spirit works anyway, which kinda goes against how the Holy Spirit works... I think I posted somewhere, some years back, about the Dancers and Sitters in Christ, in reference to this. That is in case you wanna look that up."

Thanks, I will look that up.

OK, I read it. I think what you were saying is the dancers were anointed with the spirit and the standers were not, or maybe thought they were. The standers became jealous of the dancers and accused them of having an evil spirit and wanted to exorcise that spirit out of them. Thus causing division in the church. Am I understanding it correctly?

 

[Rach1370]

Hello Rach. Here's to a better shot at it in this discussion.

BTW, Rache would be a norlandic male name... and Rach is short for both that and for Rachel etc.... And I'm guessing there are names with RACH at the first I never considered.... do I reference you as her or him?

Yes, to a better discussion!! And Rach (for me!) is short for Rachel...so...her!

Ok, I agree it's the act of regeneration.

BUT WHEN you are regenerated is a big discussion.

We agree on the heart and mind changing part too. And the Spirit living IN US. I agree that's WHEN it occurs, that IS regenerated.

HOWEVER, As best I can tell justification comes first, then the process of regeneration begins. That's evident in Paul discussing with people to run the race. If they were Regenerated at atonement/justification what race would they have to run it would be finished. The problem is, most folks don't know there is anything more than salvation in the plan as nothing more is taught but fire, brimstone, and euphoric gold streets....

Actually, I think what you're referring here to is sanctification....the process of 'race running!'
There are biblical reasons I think this, which I will try to explain.

Jesus speaks of being 'born of the Spirit' in John 3:8, Paul says that it is God who 'made us alive together with Christ' (Eph 2:5; Col 2:13), and James and Peter both reference that it is God who has 'brought us forth' and 'given us new birth' (James 1:17-18; 1 Peter 1:3). So, and here we agree, we know that Regeneration is purely a work of God.
[font="Calibri""]But what then do we say about the order of 'calling', 'regeneration', 'justification', 'sanctification' and 'glorification'?[/font]
[font="Calibri""][/font]
[font="Calibri""]And by 'calling', I am referring to Paul when he said, "Those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Rom 8:30). Calling is where God summons people, through the preaching of the gospel, to himself in such a way that they respond to him in saving faith. We see in scripture the idea of 'calling' often (Rom:8:30; 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Cor 1:9, Acts 2:39; 1 Thess 2:12, 1 Peter 5:10; 2 Peter 1:3...and others)....this kind of calling, a summons rather than just invitation, as it is seen to be more powerful than mere human invitation, is often named 'effective calling'.[/font]
[font="Calibri""][font="Calibri""]Scripture indicates that 'Regeneration' must come before we can respond to 'effective calling' with saving faith...or to be technical[/font][/font] they come almost on top of one another. Regeneration is what gives us the ability and desire to respond to God in saving faith...respond to the 'calling'.
We see this order in several passages (although again they seem almost instantaneous)...Jesus speaks of needing to be 'born of the Spirit' before we can enter the Kingdom of God' (John 3:5), and we know we enter the kingdom of God when we become Christians. We also know thanks to John 6:44 and 65 that we are unable to come to Jesus on our own, without that initial work of God within us. We also see that in Acts 16:14, where it says of Lydia "the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul". Oppositely Paul tells us: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Another example, a milk drinker is justified, but they aren't at meat yet which is regenerated.

So, a lotta you folks are claiming to be born again, at a point I think scripture says we are still running the race.

Again, I believe here that there is a difference between Regeneration and the process of sanctification. Sanctification is something that the NT encourages us to give effort and attention to.
There are several stages of sanctification...the initial one is what we would say is a definite moral change in ones life that happens at regeneration. Do you remember this time? When we suddenly long for the good things of God...to read his word, to get to know him, to love others, to put to death the sin evident in our lives? In this way regeneration is a completed event...as Paul says in 1 Cor 6:11 "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of God".
But sanctification never ceases...another stage of it we see. While the bible definitely talks about sanctification as an event, it also talks about it being a process. Although Paul says that his readers have been set free from sin (Rom 6:18) and that they are 'dead to sin and alive to God' (Rom 6:11), he nonetheless recognizes that sin remains in their lives, so he tells them not to let it reign and not to yield to it (Rom 6:12-13). He says: "Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification" (Rom 6:19). Also "We all...are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another" (2 Cor 3:18), and "Forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on towards the goal for the prize of th upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:13-14). There are more, but to save this post going on and on, I'll stop!

Romans 8:9a is a great, short, cheesy, example. I still have a sinful nature jerking my chains. I'm not yet indwelled by the Spirit.
Gal 5:16 is another, I still give into temptation so I'm not yet walking by the Spirit.
And if I ever walked BY the Spirit once, how could I leave that state without giving into the temptation to do so? Which the verse says I couldn't do.

I'm afraid I don't follow you here. Romans 8:9 says "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." I would have understood this passage to say that as belonging to Jesus, I DO have the Spirit...I don't see it saying anything about a sinful nature playing me.

And Galatians 5:16 says "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." I take this to be wonderful advice for those of us walking the road of sanctification. The more we 'walk by the Spirit', the more we will become more Christ like, putting the desires of the flesh to death. I'm afraid I cannot see it referring to us not being saved. Especially as so many other scriptures talk about how we are saved when we believe in Jesus, have faith in him as our Lord and Saviour, our substitutionary atonement!

SO as I see it, ONCE I walk by the Spirit, (Or in 1 john walk in the light...) I'm there, I have arrived, I'm not leaving that state.

I expect this is so different from how you see it it's almost threatening..... What do you say?

No, I'm not threatened, at all! But I suspect it's because, quite honestly, I disagree with you! I think it all comes back to our other discussion, about whether one is sin free or not, once we become Christ's. I believe that the bible tells us that sanctification only ends at death, and while we walk that path, or run that race, we are still striving to become more Christ like...until we reach that (read: death!) we cannot be exactly like Jesus...sin free. I am happy to lay out why I believe that, but as this post is already long, and until I know if you wish to venture down that other path again, I'll leave it alone!

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Xian you said:
"Ok, see, I gotta problem with that. The poor in spirit Inherit the reward. You are teaching that's bad to be strong. The story of the rich young ruler teaches the example of poor in spirit... "

I assume this comment is in reference to when I said that the poor doesn't necessarily mean physically poor, but rather spiritually poor. If so, I am not sure how you figured that I am teaching that it is bad to be strong.

The examples you gave were all to make people stronger inside. Not dependent. The way you portrayed poor wasn't spiritually poor at all but spiritually strong, effectually.

I never said that at ALL, you assumed that. We are to feed the poor in spirit with the knowledge God has given us.

I didn't assume anything. YOu just did it again. Feed the poor in spirit with your knowledge.... :| BLESSED ARE THE POOR IN SPIRIT, means YOU are to become poor in spirit, but all you say is about making your spirit stronger. You project the poor in spirit to others NOT yourself, and have yourself as the stronger one helping the weak. If you get down to it, that's playing God, not depending on Him. And I certainaly am not saying you intend to play God.

These poor in spirit are not lacking the spirit, they are poor in spirit, they are not rich in spirit yet.

Since the POOR in spirit get the reward in matt 5, you should stop trying to "fix them" and work at being them.

When we feed them with God's word we help strengthen their spirit. We are to encourage our brethren to stay the course. As Matthew 5:3 says "Blessed (are) the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." The rich, young ruler is poor in spirit, he is not yet rich in the spirit. He is rich in material goods, but lacks the richness of the spirit. Yeshua wanted him to put his faith in God and not money.

Wow, we are sitting back to back looking different directions aren't we. Why do you want to make the poor in Spirit stronger as you say if THEIRS is the Kingdom of Heaven?

The RYR had a strong Spirit, he was self provident, he could take care of himself, he didn't need anyone, especially Jesus. Jesus said for him to be mature spiritually to get rid of all that made him strong and come be dependent on Christ. That's poor in spirit. www.blueletterbible.com look up the beattitude, click the C to the left of that verse. You have an interlinear bible now. You'll see the greek word, the english word and the Strong's concordance's number. Click on the number it will give you a cheap and sleazy definition of the word. Meaning it doesn't get into the complexities but a quick working definition. You'll see that the goal is to BE dependent, not to be strong spiritually.



So, right off the bat in my understanding you are not in line with scripture.... so that puts my caution flag up.

You should always be cautious of anything, anyone tells you. It is your responsibility to prove all things, search the scriptures like the Bereans did.

You are awesome, you took that as it was meant and didn't think it was a personal jab.. I like you already!

"The problem with everyone saying that they are taught by the spirit and that they know, is everyone thinks they are right, yet everyone disagrees on what right actually is."

You shall know them by their fruits, actions speak louder than words.

The fruits of the Spirit can be mimicked by wanna be-s. Some well intentioned and some purposeful. Colossians two addresses people who were making up rules for how one led by the Spirit would behave. Paul said they were whack. See, you can't tell me by my fruits. You may be seeing fruits I'm acting and producing and NOT HIM producing. IN other words the difference in someone acting vs being changed.

I am sure my cat'lik buddies are secretly clapping to hear that from a protestant.

Actually I am an ex-Catholic and never a Protestant. I have come out of Babylon and no longer affiliate with any denomination.

While I agree the denomination isn't important, the church leading us is tantamount to our Xian maturity.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

"Most denominations try to define how the Holy Spirit works anyway, which kinda goes against how the Holy Spirit works... I think I posted somewhere, some years back, about the Dancers and Sitters in Christ, in reference to this. That is in case you wanna look that up."

Thanks, I will look that up.

OK, I read it. I think what you were saying is the dancers were anointed with the spirit and the standers were not, or maybe thought they were. The standers became jealous of the dancers and accused them of having an evil spirit and wanted to exorcise that spirit out of them. Thus causing division in the church. Am I understanding it correctly?

I'm saying obedience is greater than sacrifice. If God calls someone to dance they should dance; If God calls someone to sit, they should sit. It's about being authentic to what the Holy Spirit is leading you to do by not trying to please man more than pleasing God. Neither church was strictly wrong, per say, but both were excluding an aspect of the Holy Spirit's method on a matter of principle... which is wrong and missing the point...

It's hard to put "How" the Holy Spirit works in a box...

and that box represents denominations today.

Here's a true story which explains something similar.

In the OT, King Saul was told by Samuel to offer a burnt and fellowship offering at a specified time (Not to sacrifice until Samuel's return). Saul, however, disobediently sacrificed the animals before Samuel showed up. Those 2 sacrifices represent worship and obedience, explained almost to the T in the book Romans.

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

In other words, Saul was offering to God a sacrifice of praise and obedience, out of disobedience. His method was contrary to the sacrifice he was making, because it was a matter of the heart. True sacrifice is always a matter of the heart. If he was truly serving God, Saul would have waited, but Samuel called him on his disobedience, and that Saul was merely trying to serve men. Saul's kingship was taken and given to David, a boy/man after God's own heart.

I sit when God wants me to sit. I struggle when God wants me to dance. Obedience is the key either way.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Actually, I think what you're referring here to is sanctification....the process of 'race running!

Jup. but the word sanctified has many applications. Like Stake in Google, and Stake in my tent.....
You are sanctified, or set apart, when you are "saved" or atoned for.
But you are SANCTIFIED when the change is finished in you. One is perception the other is a real event with concrete witnessable markers.

[font=Calibri']

what then do we say about the order of 'calling', 'regeneration', 'justification', 'sanctification' and 'glorification'?

[/font]

[font=Calibri']I'm not going to go into the order here. Let's leave it at we disagree. I can make a better case for calling, justified, regenerated, sanctified and I woulnd't even put glorified into the chat since we can't know what that is and it's just speculation with no benefit now anyway. [/font]

[font=Calibri'][font=Calibri']Scripture indicates that 'Regeneration' must come before we can respond to 'effective calling' with saving faith...or to be technical

[/font][/font]

Ok, errr, yeah, I don't know where that scripture is. But we are about to get into Semantics....

they come almost on top of one another. Regeneration is what gives us the ability and desire to respond to God in saving faith...respond to the 'calling'.
We see this order in several passages (although again they seem almost instantaneous)...Jesus speaks of needing to be 'born of the Spirit' before we can enter the Kingdom of God' (John 3:5), and we know we enter the kingdom of God when we become Christians.

IN HIM is the kingdom. If you are in Him, you no longer sin. 1 j 3:6 OR you walk in the light as he does, and since he doesn't sin, I think it means we wouldn't be either. So, I can't make that claim yet, although I have the benefit of Grace, and forgiveness of sins, I have a mediator if I still sin, so I need not stop running the race because of guilty conscience....

For most folks they proclaim all these great words long before they are done in their lives. OR they claim them, then try to "fix the words" til it matches their lives. Scripture shows me a hard line. IF I STILL CAN SIN, I am not yet in Him. So from my faith's perspective, it's a LOT more serious than most who turn it into semantics. (these are general comments, not focused on you.)

You accept the calling, but that means you are called, not that you are there. You still have to get from where you were called to where He wants you. Thus those who were "saved" can be milk or meat. The meat are there, the milk are getting there. The meat have finished the race and are now "perfect" (assuming you know the Greek words intended meaning there...)

We also know thanks to John 6:44 and 65 that we are unable to come to Jesus on our own, without that initial work of God within us.

Correct. But you answer the call and start the race on your own. The finishing the race, or being WITH JESUS is done with his assistance, errrr his enablement. Rom 6:22 covers the progression....

Atonement or freed from sin. (saved....)
Work at obedience or become a slave to Him... (trials, tribulations, taught a new discipline, running the race, being changed...)
Receive a benefit or HE steps in to do His part... (His seed is in you 1 john 3:9. His Spirit gal 5:16, HIM inside you 1 john 5:18, )
The benefit leads to sanctification.. not the obedience... or HE finishes that race, finishes what He started in you etc...

What I've done is taken Rom 6:22 and dropped notes from other parallel verses into the mix to show where I'm coming from. If the ( words in here ) don't key off which verses, holler if you wish.

We also see that in Acts 16:14, where it says of Lydia "the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul". Oppositely Paul tells us: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

And in Gal 5:18 the spirit LEADS us from the outside. Before you are even thinking of being HIS He is working ON YOU from the outside to call you. He calls you and you start the race and make decisions on your own volition so that verse can be taken way too far.... The Spirit is more of a finishing touch.

You are called to start the race.
The more into the race you get the more involved He gets.
At a point the flesh is removed, completely and forever gone, and the Spirit ONLY THEN indwells.

Many people just assume they are indwelled by the Spirit cause it sounds really cool and that's what their pastor taught them. So when they read this verse they assume the flesh is gone. When in truth if it was gone, they wouldn't give into temptation any longer so they aren't yet indwelled by the Spirit. They don't even know to keep running the race because they think they have finished it. Hard lines of IF we are there.

Again, I believe here that there is a difference between Regeneration and the process of sanctification. Sanctification is something that the NT encourages us to give effort and attention to.

I see a difference too. Regenerated is the sanctified person in the sense that the race is finished. But the person is sanctified at accepting Grace or the "altar call". Sancitifed means set apart. In the altar call example, you are set apart by Him, perceived holy, assumed holy, holy by the blood from the cross. In the other example you are sanctified because you are made different, meaning a new creation, not a flippy floppy thing that jumps back and forth like some flickering hologram on a bad sci fi show. Both are sanctified. When we see the word sanctified people assume it's all the same thing..... And it's not. You can't word search sanctify and get verses that all discuss the same thing. No more than you can the word FLESH, as it means different things in different places.

There are several stages of sanctification...the initial one is what we would say is a definite moral change in ones life that happens at regeneration.

Scripture please?

Do you remember this time? When we suddenly long for the good things of God...to read his word, to get to know him, to love others, to put to death the sin evident in our lives?

This teaching started with one of Wesley's disciples and has only been in the faith for about 150ish years. Does that disturb you that for the first 1850 years of the Church none of them experienced what you are describing?

In this way regeneration is a completed event...as Paul says in 1 Cor 6:11 "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of God".

OR Paul was addressing a person/people here, who were meat eaters, and not milk drinkers. That would mean that it would be the goal to get to of the milkers. Not something they achieved.

But sanctification never ceases...another stage of it we see. While the bible definitely talks about sanctification as an event, it also talks about it being a process.

Being a process doesn't mean it doesn't have a finished state. That's what PAUL refers when he says him and others that are perfect, or present us as perfect when Christ returns, etc...

Although Paul says that his readers have been set free from sin He says: "Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification" (Rom 6:19).

Paul talks about set free from sin in different ways. Free from the penalty of sin, free from the law/sin, and freed from sinning, as well as freed from the nature that makes you sin. Which one he meant in each verses is a contextual nightmare sometimes.

Also "We all...are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another" (2 Cor 3:18),

Doesn't mean it never finishes... In fact Paul assures us He'll finish what He starts.

and "Forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on towards the goal for the prize of th upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:13-14). There are more, but to save this post going on and on, I'll stop!

I understand how you read each of them, but none of them reach the conclusion you suggest. I mean they COULD be read consistently with your claim, but there isn't a verse to show it's never finished, and I have several that say it is.

I'm afraid I don't follow you here. Romans 8:9 says "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." I would have understood this passage to say that as belonging to Jesus, I DO have the Spirit...I don't see it saying anything about a sinful nature playing me.

Do you still have a nature that makes you do what you don't wanna do and not do what you want to do? ROm 7,
A Spirit that you obey and sin?
Do you still give into temptation?
If yes, then you have a sinful nature and thus...

If you still are in the flesh, you are not yet indwelled by the Spirit.

And Galatians 5:16 says "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh." I take this to be wonderful advice for those of us walking the road of sanctification.

It's not advice, it's a demarcation point. IF you walk by the Spirit you can not give into temptations. You could not switch back to the flesh without the temptation, so once there you stay there. Thus the verse that says the flesh and it's effects are circumcised means it's gone forever.

The more we 'walk by the Spirit', the more we will become more Christ like, putting the desires of the flesh to death.

The race is finished WHEN WE WALK by the Spirit the first time.

No, I'm not threatened, at all! But I suspect it's because, quite honestly, I disagree with you!

Usually folks react defensively in the chat. And you haven't. Disagreeing is good. Knowing HOW to disagree is even better.

I think it all comes back to our other discussion, about whether one is sin free or not, once we become Christ's. I believe that the bible tells us that sanctification only ends at death,

And I spent three years trying to prove that point. I am quite confident and will stand before any size crowd, against any speaker but Christ Himself and show that it is no where in the bible. It's assumed, it's believed, it's used as an excuse but it's not there anywhere.

and while we walk that path, or run that race, we are still striving to become more Christ like...until we reach that (read: death!)

EPhesiahs 4 says to a person alive on earth, they are to become not christ lite/like, but as fully and completely spiritually mature as Christ was. So, I have direct objection from the Bible to that concept.

we cannot be exactly like Jesus...sin free.

Well, not in so much as our whole lives, but absosmurfly from a point in our lives when the race is finished forward from there....

I am happy to lay out why I believe that, but as this post is already long, and until I know if you wish to venture down that other path again, I'll leave it alone!

We are going to end up in different threads if we continue this.....

or wwe should.... because there are several topic worthy points/words to discuss.

 

[Axehead]

Being perfected (mature) in Christ is being perfected in love and that happens through a process of abiding in Jesus Christ. To abide in Christ and remain in Him, once must follow Him wherever He goes, listen to Him, respond to Him, carry out His promptings and requests in our lives.

1Jn_2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected (matured): hereby know we that we are in him.

So, you could say "keeping His word" is a spiritual work. As you said, Works. It certainly is not a work of the flesh. Abiding in Christ is our "WORK" and then in relationship of abiding in Christ we will be led by Him to manifest the fruit that is a result of His life in us.

We are doing HIS WORK just as He was doing the Father's work. "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34)

Though Mary was sitting at His feet and "listening" to him (not doing any physical work), Martha, with all her "works" in the kitchen appeared to be the one that was most "spiritual." In fact, Martha had the audacity to reprove Mary in front of Jesus while drawing attention to herself and her works. Jesus was not impressed and He set the record straight. "Martha, Martha, you are busy about many things, but Mary hath chosen the good part that will not be taken away from her".

Mary was listening (obeying).

Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.


Listen - shâma‛
shaw-mah'
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness.

Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey (listen), but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

obey - hupēkoos
hoop-ay'-ko-os
From G5219; attentively listening, that is, (by implication) submissive: - obedient.

Listen-Obey, Listen-Obey, Obey-Listen, Obey-Listen!!

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect (mature) in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. IF,IF,IF we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected (matured) in us.

One only matures and is perfected in Love as they abide in Christ and He dwells in them. Abiding in Christ will produce spiritual fruit and works that will not burn up because the works were the fruit of abiding in Him (authored by the Holy Spirit).

Axehead