The Modern Gospel

[Johann]

Does the anger of man produce the righteousness of God? (Scripture says no)

Forgetting context-no offense. A angry man, in a state of bitterness and anger" is not born from above.

Ephesians 4:26-27 (ESV):
"Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil."

This verse acknowledges the existence of anger but emphasizes that it should not lead to sin. It suggests that anger can be appropriate when directed against sin or injustice, but it should be managed in a way that honors God and resolves issues peacefully.
Psalm 7:11 (ESV):
"God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day."

This verse portrays God as having righteous anger or indignation against sin and injustice. It affirms that anger can be a righteous response when aligned with God's character and justice.
Mark 3:5 (ESV):
"And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, 'Stretch out your hand.' He stretched it out, and his hand was restored."

In this passage, Jesus demonstrates righteous anger when he confronts the Pharisees' hardness of heart. His anger is motivated by compassion and a desire for healing and restoration.
Proverbs 29:11 (ESV):
"A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back."

This verse contrasts uncontrolled anger (which leads to foolishness) with wise restraint. It implies that anger can be justified but should be managed with wisdom and self-control.
Nehemiah 5:6-7 (ESV):
"I was very angry when I heard their outcry and these words. I took counsel with myself, and I brought charges against the nobles and the officials."

Nehemiah demonstrates righteous anger when he hears of oppression and injustice against his fellow Jews. He responds by taking appropriate action to address the situation and seek justice.
These passages illustrate that while anger itself is not inherently sinful, how it is expressed and the motives behind it determine whether it aligns with God's righteousness. Righteous anger seeks justice, confronts sin, and aims for restoration and reconciliation, reflecting God's character and purposes.

Ephesians 4:26-27 (ESV):
"Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil."

As mentioned earlier, Paul instructs believers to be angry without sinning, emphasizing the need for righteous anger that does not lead to wrongdoing. This verse underscores the importance of managing anger in a way that aligns with God's standards and avoids giving foothold to the devil through unresolved conflict.
Romans 12:19-21 (ESV):
"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' To the contrary, 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

Here, Paul addresses the concept of divine justice and responding to wrongdoing. He encourages believers not to take vengeance into their own hands but to leave it to God's righteous judgment. Instead, they are to respond to evil with acts of kindness and love, reflecting God's character and seeking reconciliation.
Galatians 5:19-21 (ESV):
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

In this passage, Paul lists fits of anger among the works of the flesh that are contrary to the Spirit-led life. This serves as a caution against uncontrolled or sinful anger that leads to division and discord, contrasting it with the fruit of the Spirit that includes love, patience, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23).
Colossians 3:8 (ESV):
"But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth."

Paul instructs believers to put away sinful expressions of anger along with other harmful behaviors. This verse underscores the need for believers to cultivate attitudes and behaviors that are pleasing to God and promote unity and peace within the body of Christ.
These references from Paul's writings highlight his teachings on anger, justice, and the Christian response to wrongdoing. They emphasize the importance of aligning our emotions and actions with God's righteousness and grace, seeking reconciliation and peace rather than allowing anger to lead to sin or division.
Matthew 11:28-30 (ESV):

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

In this passage, Jesus invites those who are weary and burdened to come to him for rest. He contrasts the heavy burdens imposed by legalistic interpretations of the law with the ease and lightness found in following him. Taking on his yoke signifies submitting to his teaching and guidance, which brings spiritual rest and peace.
1 John 5:3 (ESV):

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

While not directly stating "my yoke is easy," this verse emphasizes that keeping God's commandments is not burdensome for those who love God. It aligns with Jesus' teaching that following him and living according to God's will brings joy and fulfillment rather than a heavy burden.
Exegesis:
Jesus' Invitation: Jesus extends a gracious invitation to those who are burdened by the demands of legalism or worldly cares to find rest in him. His yoke represents discipleship and submission to his teachings, which are characterized by gentleness and humility.

Easy Yoke, Light Burden: Jesus contrasts the legalistic burdens imposed by religious leaders with the simplicity and ease of following him. His teachings and commands, rooted in love and grace, do not weigh down his followers but instead provide spiritual nourishment and fulfillment.

Rest for the Soul: By taking on Jesus' yoke and learning from him, believers experience a deep soul-rest that comes from aligning their lives with God's purposes and finding peace in his presence.

These passages illustrate Jesus' compassionate invitation to find relief and spiritual refreshment in him, highlighting the contrast between legalism and the freedom found in a relationship with Christ.

Have a good night @Wynona

Johann.

 

[Wynona]

Forgetting context-no offense. A angry man, in a state of bitterness and anger" is not born from above.

Not sure I agree in this instance. The verse was addressed to believers.

But here is more context.

James 1:19-20

19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

I agree that not all anger is sin. And there is righteous anger. But I rarely see Godly anger used on this forum by anyone. Strangers who aren't personally invested in other stranger's lives claim they are giving a Godly rebuke. Its hard not to see it as egotistical quarreling when its clear they are simply offended and want to be seen as right.

2 Timothy 2:24-25

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

I'd like to see someone apply these verses on here.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not sure I agree in this instance. The verse was addressed to believers.

But here is more context.

James 1:19-20

19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

I agree that not all anger is sin. And there is righteous anger. But I rarely see Godly anger used on this forum by anyone. Strangers who aren't personally invested in other stranger's lives claim they are giving a Godly rebuke. Its hard not to see it as egotistical quarreling when its clear they are simply offended and want to be seen as right.

2 Timothy 2:24-25

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

I'd like to see someone apply these verses on here.

when we act out in anger. We do not think straight, and we start to see things that are not there. And start to say things that may not be true.

its better just to back away

But then the scripture also says don‘t let the sun go down on your anger.. so you also need to resolve it.

There is a sticky point I have not been able to resolve..

 

[Wynona]

when we act out in anger. We do not think straight, and we start to see things that are not there. And start to say things that may not be true.

its better just to back away

But then the scripture also says don‘t let the sun go down on your anger.. so you also need to resolve it.

There is a sticky point I have not been able to resolve..

Id like to see my own posts reflect more gentleness and patience too. Less.acting out or reacting.

Sorry about the unresolved sticky point. I hope it gets better

 

[Johann]

Not sure I agree in this instance. The verse was addressed to believers.

But here is more context.

James 1:19-20

19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

I agree that not all anger is sin. And there is righteous anger. But I rarely see Godly anger used on this forum by anyone. Strangers who aren't personally invested in other stranger's lives claim they are giving a Godly rebuke. Its hard not to see it as egotistical quarreling when its clear they are simply offended and want to be seen as right.

2 Timothy 2:24-25

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

I'd like to see someone apply these verses on here.

Me too, but you have to agree many here are "lipping" the name of Christ Jesus, having a form of godliness and even quoting the right scriptures but are devoid of what really matters, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Passage: James 1:19-20 (ESV)
Verse 19:
"So then, my beloved brothers, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;"

Swift to hear: This admonition emphasizes the importance of listening attentively and actively, rather than reacting impulsively or prematurely in conversations or disputes.

Slow to speak: This counsel urges caution in speech, advising against hasty or rash words that can escalate conflicts or misunderstandings.

Slow to anger: Here, James advises against quick and uncontrolled anger. Believers are encouraged to exercise patience and self-control, even in frustrating or challenging circumstances.

Verse 20:
"For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God."

James provides a rationale for his instructions in verse 19. He explains that human anger—when unchecked and driven by selfish or worldly motives—does not align with God’s righteousness. Instead of promoting God’s purposes, human anger often leads to destructive behaviors and relationships.
Exegesis:
Contextual Setting: James addresses believers who are facing trials (James 1:2-4) and encourages them to respond with wisdom and faith. Verses 19-20 offer practical guidance on maintaining righteous conduct in the midst of adversity.

Wisdom in Communication: James emphasizes the value of listening attentively before speaking, which fosters understanding and prevents misunderstandings. He also stresses the detrimental effects of unchecked anger, which can hinder relationships and obstruct God’s righteousness from being manifested through believers.

Application: These verses highlight the importance of humility, self-control, and sensitivity to others in our interactions. Believers are called to reflect God’s character through their responses, demonstrating patience and grace even in challenging situations.

Practical Application:
Personal Reflection: Before responding in anger or frustration, believers are encouraged to pause, listen actively, and consider the implications of their words and actions.

Seeking God’s Righteousness: By aligning their responses with God’s righteousness, believers can contribute to reconciliation, peace, and the advancement of God’s kingdom.

In summary, James 1:19-20 underscores the importance of wise and righteous conduct in communication and emotional responses. It urges believers to cultivate a spirit of humility, patience, and self-control, reflecting God’s character and promoting harmony within the Christian community and beyond.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Context of 2 Timothy
Authorship and Audience:
The Second Epistle to Timothy is one of the pastoral epistles written by the apostle Paul. It is addressed to Timothy, a young pastor and disciple of Paul, who was overseeing the church in Ephesus.

Purpose and Themes:
Paul wrote this letter near the end of his life, while he was imprisoned in Rome (2 Timothy 1:8, 16). The letter serves as a personal and pastoral encouragement to Timothy, urging him to remain faithful in his ministry despite challenges and oppositions (2 Timothy 1:6-7, 13-14).

Detailed Context of 2 Timothy 2:24-25
Verses 24-25 (ESV):
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,"

Instruction for Servants of the Lord: Paul begins by emphasizing the conduct expected of those who serve the Lord. They are to avoid quarrels and disputes, displaying kindness and gentleness towards all people.

Qualities to Embrace:

Kindness: Servants of the Lord should demonstrate a compassionate and considerate attitude towards others.
Able to teach: They should possess the ability to impart knowledge and instruct others in the truth of the Gospel.
Patience: Enduring hardships and opposition with steadfastness and perseverance.
Approach to Opponents: When dealing with those who oppose the Gospel or hold differing views, Paul advises Timothy (and by extension, all servants of the Lord) to correct them with gentleness and meekness.

Purpose of Instruction: The ultimate goal in engaging opponents is not to win arguments or prove superiority, but to lead them towards repentance and a true knowledge of the Gospel truth.

Application and Significance
Pastoral Ministry: These verses provide practical guidance for pastors and church leaders in their interactions with congregation members and others outside the church.

Christian Conduct: They emphasize the importance of humility, patience, and a gentle spirit in personal relationships and evangelistic efforts.

Spiritual Growth: The approach advocated by Paul promotes spiritual growth not only in the one being corrected but also in the servant of the Lord, fostering a spirit of humility and reliance on God’s grace.

Conclusion
2 Timothy 2:24-25 underscores the importance of humility, kindness, and patience in Christian ministry and personal conduct. It challenges believers, especially those in leadership roles, to embody the character of Christ in their interactions with others, seeking reconciliation and guiding opponents towards repentance and truth through gentle instruction and correction.

So yes, I concur

 

[Johann]

when we act out in anger. We do not think straight, and we start to see things that are not there. And start to say things that may not be true.

its better just to back away

But then the scripture also says don‘t let the sun go down on your anger.. so you also need to resolve it.

There is a sticky point I have not been able to resolve..

Context of Ephesians 4:26-27
Authorship and Audience:
The Epistle to the Ephesians was written by the apostle Paul to the church in Ephesus and neighboring regions. It is one of the New Testament letters that addresses theological truths and practical instructions for Christian living.

Theme of Unity and Christian Conduct:
Ephesians emphasizes the unity of believers in Christ (Ephesians 4:1-6), the work of Christ in reconciling all things to God (Ephesians 2:11-22), and the practical implications of this unity in daily life.

Detailed Context of Ephesians 4:26-27
Verses 26-27 (ESV):
"Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil."

Instruction on Anger: Paul acknowledges that anger is a natural emotion but warns against sinful responses or prolonged anger that can lead to bitterness and conflict.

Resolution: The command "do not let the sun go down on your anger" suggests a timely resolution of conflicts and grievances. Believers are encouraged to address and reconcile their differences promptly to prevent bitterness and to maintain unity within the body of Christ.

Avoiding Sin: By addressing anger promptly and resolving conflicts peacefully, believers avoid giving the devil an opportunity to sow discord and division among them.

Application and Significance
Personal Relationships: Ephesians 4:26-27 emphasizes the importance of healthy interpersonal relationships within the Christian community. It encourages believers to handle conflicts with humility, forgiveness, and a commitment to reconciliation.

Spiritual Warfare: Resolving conflicts promptly also serves as a defense against spiritual attacks and the schemes of the devil, who seeks to disrupt unity and hinder God’s work among believers.

Holistic Christian Living: These verses underscore the holistic nature of Christian living, where personal conduct and relationships reflect the unity and reconciliation achieved through Christ’s work on the cross.

Conclusion
Ephesians 4:26-27 provides practical guidance on managing anger and resolving conflicts within the context of Christian community. It calls believers to respond to anger with wisdom and self-control, seeking prompt resolution to maintain unity and to thwart the divisive schemes of the enemy. Ultimately, it promotes a lifestyle marked by forgiveness, humility, and mutual respect, reflecting the transformative power of Christ in believers’ lives.

I think this says it all brother.
Late here in South Africa, so check for mistakes, I am fallible.
J.

 

[Wynona]

e too, but you have to agree many here are "lipping" the name of Christ Jesus, having a form of godliness and even quoting the right scriptures but are devoid of what really matters, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

For sure. I think I post about 1/5th of what I actually think toward others on here. I'm not as neutral as I sound.

For the sake of the rules and basic civility, I remind myself that I don't have to post everything I think. No one does.

I have people I find insufferable on here. And I don't disagree with every insult, even harsh ones. But its better in most cases for me to stay on topic and use a lot of filters. Yeah, it comes off vague and aloof to some. But they don't want my actual opinion of them.

 

[ChristisGod]

Forgetting context-no offense. A angry man, in a state of bitterness and anger" is not born from above.

Ephesians 4:26-27 (ESV):
"Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil."

This verse acknowledges the existence of anger but emphasizes that it should not lead to sin. It suggests that anger can be appropriate when directed against sin or injustice, but it should be managed in a way that honors God and resolves issues peacefully.
Psalm 7:11 (ESV):
"God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day."

This verse portrays God as having righteous anger or indignation against sin and injustice. It affirms that anger can be a righteous response when aligned with God's character and justice.
Mark 3:5 (ESV):
"And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, 'Stretch out your hand.' He stretched it out, and his hand was restored."

In this passage, Jesus demonstrates righteous anger when he confronts the Pharisees' hardness of heart. His anger is motivated by compassion and a desire for healing and restoration.
Proverbs 29:11 (ESV):
"A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back."

This verse contrasts uncontrolled anger (which leads to foolishness) with wise restraint. It implies that anger can be justified but should be managed with wisdom and self-control.
Nehemiah 5:6-7 (ESV):
"I was very angry when I heard their outcry and these words. I took counsel with myself, and I brought charges against the nobles and the officials."

Nehemiah demonstrates righteous anger when he hears of oppression and injustice against his fellow Jews. He responds by taking appropriate action to address the situation and seek justice.
These passages illustrate that while anger itself is not inherently sinful, how it is expressed and the motives behind it determine whether it aligns with God's righteousness. Righteous anger seeks justice, confronts sin, and aims for restoration and reconciliation, reflecting God's character and purposes.

Ephesians 4:26-27 (ESV):
"Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil."

As mentioned earlier, Paul instructs believers to be angry without sinning, emphasizing the need for righteous anger that does not lead to wrongdoing. This verse underscores the importance of managing anger in a way that aligns with God's standards and avoids giving foothold to the devil through unresolved conflict.
Romans 12:19-21 (ESV):
"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' To the contrary, 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

Here, Paul addresses the concept of divine justice and responding to wrongdoing. He encourages believers not to take vengeance into their own hands but to leave it to God's righteous judgment. Instead, they are to respond to evil with acts of kindness and love, reflecting God's character and seeking reconciliation.
Galatians 5:19-21 (ESV):
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

In this passage, Paul lists fits of anger among the works of the flesh that are contrary to the Spirit-led life. This serves as a caution against uncontrolled or sinful anger that leads to division and discord, contrasting it with the fruit of the Spirit that includes love, patience, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23).
Colossians 3:8 (ESV):
"But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth."

Paul instructs believers to put away sinful expressions of anger along with other harmful behaviors. This verse underscores the need for believers to cultivate attitudes and behaviors that are pleasing to God and promote unity and peace within the body of Christ.
These references from Paul's writings highlight his teachings on anger, justice, and the Christian response to wrongdoing. They emphasize the importance of aligning our emotions and actions with God's righteousness and grace, seeking reconciliation and peace rather than allowing anger to lead to sin or division.
Matthew 11:28-30 (ESV):

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

In this passage, Jesus invites those who are weary and burdened to come to him for rest. He contrasts the heavy burdens imposed by legalistic interpretations of the law with the ease and lightness found in following him. Taking on his yoke signifies submitting to his teaching and guidance, which brings spiritual rest and peace.
1 John 5:3 (ESV):

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

While not directly stating "my yoke is easy," this verse emphasizes that keeping God's commandments is not burdensome for those who love God. It aligns with Jesus' teaching that following him and living according to God's will brings joy and fulfillment rather than a heavy burden.
Exegesis:
Jesus' Invitation: Jesus extends a gracious invitation to those who are burdened by the demands of legalism or worldly cares to find rest in him. His yoke represents discipleship and submission to his teachings, which are characterized by gentleness and humility.

Easy Yoke, Light Burden: Jesus contrasts the legalistic burdens imposed by religious leaders with the simplicity and ease of following him. His teachings and commands, rooted in love and grace, do not weigh down his followers but instead provide spiritual nourishment and fulfillment.

Rest for the Soul: By taking on Jesus' yoke and learning from him, believers experience a deep soul-rest that comes from aligning their lives with God's purposes and finding peace in his presence.

These passages illustrate Jesus' compassionate invitation to find relief and spiritual refreshment in him, highlighting the contrast between legalism and the freedom found in a relationship with Christ.

Have a good night @Wynona

Johann.

You claim you know Gods mind and can say your anger is the same as Gods righteous anger is shaky ground. It’s why the Bible warns believers not to be angry like scripture points out. Can you judge another persons heart like Jesus and be angry and sin not like Jesus ?

Is anger the fruit of the spirit ? Yes or no

And one isolated verse saying be angry and sin not does not trump all the verses commanding believers not to be angry. Anger that retaliates is ungodly.

Here is Gods will

Ephesians 4:31,32
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice

Colossians 3:8
But now you must put aside all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips

 

[Johann]

For sure. I think I post about 1/5th of what I actually think toward others on here. I'm not as neutral as I sound.

For the sake of the rules and basic civility, I remind myself that I don't have to post everything I think. No one does.

I have people I find insufferable on here. And I don't disagree with every insult, even harsh ones. But its better in most cases for me to stay on topic and use a lot of filters. Yeah, it comes off vague and aloof to some. But they don't want my actual opinion of them

or, in other words-

Your reflection on the selective nature of what you share online resonates with a common dilemma in communication: the tension between authenticity and social norms. It's true that we often filter our thoughts to maintain civility and adhere to platform rules. This self-regulation can sometimes result in a perceived neutrality that may not fully reflect our inner thoughts and opinions.

Navigating interactions with individuals we find challenging requires a delicate balance of restraint and honesty. Choosing to stay on topic and use filters demonstrates a commitment to productive discourse despite personal disagreements. It's a reminder that effective communication often involves not only expressing our viewpoints but also considering the impact on others.

Ultimately, this approach highlights the complexity of online interactions where maintaining decorum sometimes means prioritizing the discussion's focus over personal sentiments. It's a skill that fosters respectful engagement even amidst differing opinions.

You agree?

 

[Wynona]

or, in other words-

Your reflection on the selective nature of what you share online resonates with a common dilemma in communication: the tension between authenticity and social norms. It's true that we often filter our thoughts to maintain civility and adhere to platform rules. This self-regulation can sometimes result in a perceived neutrality that may not fully reflect our inner thoughts and opinions.

Navigating interactions with individuals we find challenging requires a delicate balance of restraint and honesty. Choosing to stay on topic and use filters demonstrates a commitment to productive discourse despite personal disagreements. It's a reminder that effective communication often involves not only expressing our viewpoints but also considering the impact on others.

Ultimately, this approach highlights the complexity of online interactions where maintaining decorum sometimes means prioritizing the discussion's focus over personal sentiments. It's a skill that fosters respectful engagement even amidst differing opinions.

You agree?

Yeah. That was almost as spot on as I always am. (just kidding)

But its nice to put things into words like that.

 

[Johann]

Yeah. That was almost as spot on as I always am. (just kidding)

But its nice to put things into words like that.

Shalom and good night.
03:34 AM--and very tired, emotionally and spiritually.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

It's Jesus's faith that was given to us....faith by HIS Spirit, not of our own....to be able to have faith in Him (Jesus). Born again of incorruptible seed......His word. And He is the Word (made flesh).

The bolded underlined part was referring to Epi's false teaching that imputed righteousness doesn't apply to all born again believers....only to those rare individuals who are walking in what he calls the higher walk. He has a wrong idea of what imputed means. And His theology would would have to mean everyone who is not walking in his higher walk are not saved! I don't know how that could be anything other than a false gospel.

Who decides what faith is required to be covered by God's righteousness? Is that up to us? Are we to assume that God accepts whatever we do?

But you misquote me...as you must to make a case against sound doctrine. But you know you are twisting my words...as well as the bible...to uphold your opinions.

I never said that God doesn't impute righteousness on born again believers. All believers are justified by faith. What I'm against is the naming and claiming of being as righteous as God is...claiming that God IMPUTES His righteousness to humans at all. No one is as righteous as God. And God is not unaware of this. God is NOT senile. He doesn't see humans as righteous as Himself. God doesn't cover up our sins with His righteousness either. That should be obvious. But you and others here promote a sinful holiness. And I stand against that...as I should. So your remarks fall back on you multiplied.

The false gospel makes crazy claims on the deviated ones for being sinful and carnal. It is self-righteousness being promoted. Having maybe started in the Spirit, many learn very quickly to embrace and publish iniquity. Should that not be corrected? But to some this is seen as mischaracterization...even as these claim things that go exactly against the truth. It's the sign of the times.

 

[Episkopos]

The true gospel says...while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us (because of us). Rom. 5:8

The false gospel says ...while we were yet sinners God imputed His own righteousness to us (No verse found that remotely suggests this)

How many follow a dead religion whereby Jesus has to stay on the cross to make it work? or else always referring to the death of Jesus as a means to self-justify by ideological beliefs? ...

But Jesus was raised to justify those who partake of His resurrection life. In that life there is no sin. That life is under the COVERING of God's righteousness. This kind of life is UNKNOWN among the modern gospel adherents. These will mock the higher walk in holiness as a fable, even as they promote fables of their own.

 

[Ritajanice]

No I did not.

But you would not know. You never listen

No it is Christ. Christ died, the HS did not

I said I was born again.

ME was born again is bad language..

I said the seed was many things. But th cross is the basis of it

Are you denying the cross is the means of redemption?

The cross was needed in order that we can become Born Of the Spirit.

The cross did not make my spirit Born Again..I go by Gods Witness, then I check out what was witnessed to my heart/spirit with Gods word..and there it is.

There is NOTHING confusing about becoming Born Again by God Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit.

Man/ woman is the confused by adding their own spin on God’s word.

Anyway I will leave it there.

I also LOVE Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit..leading His spirit child through God’s written word and bringing it to understanding in my spirit.

Wether I’m on milk or not,, it doesn’t matter..I’m fed the word by Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit.thats whose food I crave.....growing up in the spirit is so very wonderful but it ain’t been easy, ‘tis a very narrow path that we walk and Praise God only His Spirit can keep me walking that path.....

That is where my security lies in my heart/ spirit....I have so much to learn in my heart/ spirit...by my teacher and only teacher the Holy Spirit...Praise God for that Honour and Privilege.

It’s an Honour to be a child of God.

His knowledge that he witnesses to my heart of the word, Blows my mind, every time he reveals something to my heart/ spirit that I don’t understand....... only He has the power to open Gods written words to our heart/ spirit.

 

[Ritajanice]

Johann please,
When Paul or James or John are trying to explain something, PLEASE don't use what they write, for they are commenting on things, and we should rely on our own Spirit to tell us things without help of the Apostles.

Error....you do not rely on your own Spirit to tell us anything.

Please explain to me what our own Spirit knows, which should be lower case, ....without God’s Living witness His Living Holy Spirit ?

What do you know in your own understanding of God’s written word?

Our spirit needs to be “ Born Again “...we can and do not rely on our “ own spirit “..show me where it says this in Gods word?

That we rely on our own “ Spirit “..thank you.

We 100% rely on God’s Spirit who brings our spirit to Gods truth...that is why we need to be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God.!

Where do you think our spiritual eyes and ears come from?

Who develops those spiritual eyes and ears within us?

We grow and mature in Christ, by Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit....

Bible, King James Version​

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1 John​

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Previous Chapter​

1John.4​

[1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
[2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
[5] They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
[6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
[7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
[8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
[9] In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
[10] Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
[11] Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
[12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
[13] Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
[14] And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
[15] Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
[16] And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
[17] Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
[18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.
[20] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
[21] And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also

 

[Ritajanice]

Forgetting context-no offense. A angry man, in a state of bitterness and anger" is not born from above.

Not true..a Born Again is being made into the image of Jesus from within, same as bearing Jesus fruit...do you think you are made into Jesus in an instance by Gods power within us?

A Born Again learns to communicate with God via His Spirit, do you actually understand this in your heart/ spirit?

We do not lose our old mindset over night, that’s why God teaches about the renewing of our minds.

You are going by solar scripture, whereas you need to know that knowledge in your heart/ spirit..only Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit can Witness that truth to your heart.

I’ve been full of anger as a Born Again, the Lord has shown me the worlds anger that was fed into me..

Being led by worldly parents, then we come into God’s Kingdom we then by His power unlearn all that rubbish that was fed into our heart/ spirit.....we can only unlearn this anger by Gods Witness working in us to show us where this anger comes from...it’s a very long process to become more and more like Jesus in our heart/ spirit..

You can read scripture all you like but it must resonate with your spirit, it must be revealed and understood in your heart/ spirit, which comes from our fellowship with Gods Spirit..he is our teacher.


Also a Born Again doesn’t sin because they have been Born Of God’s seed.

And before any one picks me up, I have never said we aren’t without sin, we live in this sin body...we’ve been set free from sins hold, when God forgave our sins and made us Born Of His Spirit.again that can only come through heart revelation.
My opinion/ testimony and belief.

 

[Hepzibah]

This is my view. Paul was talking about himself as a Pharisee under the law.

"This is my view. Paul was talking about himself as a Pharisee under the law."

But Paul says elsewhere, that a miserable sinner is not how he saw himself as a Pharisee under the law for example: Philippians 3:6 :

as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

It was not the confession of a Pharisee to make the confession of Paul in Romans 7. They thought that they were untouchable and were filled with pride.

" The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life. The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9)."

Yes if he speaking of the normal Christian life but I contend that he was not. He was speaking of a period within the abnormal Christian, when the man is in the wilderness experience, as was Job, where there is silence from heaven, and a man thinks that God (the Holy Spirit) has deserted him.

And this is why he speaks as he does in v 14:

"14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin"

Paul has already spoken to believers as carnal as to the Corinthians. He thought he was in the Spirit but now finds that he is in the flesh still. It is a time called the Dark Night of the Soul by many who have gone through it which Job will agree with.

"The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19)."

Don't forget that Paul is speaking about experience not doctrine. In chapter 6 he is describing the state which should be normal for a Christian - seated above in high places, until he finds himself in a conflict what leads him to despair. This is a time where the Holy Spirit convicts a believer of his utter inability to keep the law as God requires of him. It is a terrible time when the man comes tot he end of himself.

"(“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being”)? Doesn’t such delight and longing for God’s law show that a believer is in view? Not necessarily. Many pious Jews loved God’s law and yet didn’t know God. Paul himself testifies that the Jews have a “zeal for God,” though they lacked knowledge (Rom. 10:2). There can be zeal and delight in the law (witness the Pharisees) when one isn’t truly saved."

This is where we come to the crux of the matter. A Jew does not delight in the law in his inner man that is, in his spirit. A Jew will obey the outer law, even love it (because it makes him feel superior) and fail to obey what Christ demanded, that is for example - do not look upon a woman to lust, the man has already committed adultery. Jews had to be taught this by Jesus. Sins of the inner man were not considered disobedience.

"The tense of the verb doesn’t emphasize time in Romans 7:7–25. Rather, the use of the present tense here fits with the state or condition of the person. Paul is emphasizing one’s captivity, subjugation, and impotence under the law. His use of the present tense doesn’t denote past time but highlights in a vivid way the slavery of life under the law."

This is a common literary tool to help the listener feel the words spoken more applicable to themselves.

"If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin"

On the contrary, there is a vast ocean of difference. The belief I laid out is not the interpretation you think I hold. It is not a case of a normal believer versus an unbeliever. It is a third understanding which I have explained thus far. A believer who has need to walk in the Spirit and who God willing goes on to chapter 8.

There are so many testimonies of this but we are in dark times and there are little. It is a mistake to go by ones own experience in the matter.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Id like to see my own posts reflect more gentleness and patience too. Less.acting out or reacting.

Sorry about the unresolved sticky point. I hope it gets better

Its just the answer

if we should walk away. Yet resolve it before the sun goes down…lol

I think it is because if we do not, we wake up the next day and the anger is still there

Or I have been kept up many a night because I was angry at someone at work. Or a sibling or somethign else. Thinking about it..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For sure. I think I post about 1/5th of what I actually think toward others on here. I'm not as neutral as I sound.

For the sake of the rules and basic civility, I remind myself that I don't have to post everything I think. No one does.

I have people I find insufferable on here. And I don't disagree with every insult, even harsh ones. But its better in most cases for me to stay on topic and use a lot of filters. Yeah, it comes off vague and aloof to some. But they don't want my actual opinion of them.

This is how I think we all shoudl act.

if would be A much more peaceful chatroom. Without all the silly name calling, and comments which have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation.

I find myself treating others the same as they act. So If I see it, I spit it right back at them, But even that is not always the best thing to do.. Many times I do it just to try to show them how bad it looks, or how it makes others feel. But even then, I am sure it is wrong. I have read some things I have said in the past and got sick myself!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who decides what faith is required to be covered by God's righteousness? Is that up to us? Are we to assume that God accepts whatever we do?

I think God tell us, so I think he decides

In john 3, He said that faith IN HIM will grant you eternal life, and once you have it you will never perish.

As far as God accepting everything we do? Well he does not and will not accept our sin. Thats why he said, the wage of sin is death. But the gift of God is life eternal. Why? He died in our place. So we could be made the righteousness of God in him (Like abraham, those who believe (trust faith) are given Gods righteousness. Why? Because our righteousness are as filthy rags

But you misquote me...as you must to make a case against sound doctrine. But you know you are twisting my words...as well as the bible...to uphold your opinions.

And here we go again… Blame shifting, and doing what you yourself do often.

I never said that God doesn't impute righteousness on born again believers. All believers are justified by faith. What I'm against is the naming and claiming of being as righteous as God is...

Who says they are righteous as God is? I have never in my life heard anyone say this, so where do you come up with things like this?

Now I do not there are people who claim they were born again, and no never sin (I guess this could be taken as what you are saying) But the word also says they are deceived. So we all should be against that.

But to say we are just as righteous as God? No

Now Justified by faith means we have been declared innocent of all things (justified is a legal term which means to be found innocent) only our justification is not based on our innocence, but on Gods righteousness. Hence why it is imputed to us.

its like the day of atonement, when the High Priest puts the blood on the ark. The cherub can not see the things that proved the guilt of the people (the ten commands, Arron;s rod that budded, the manna) they saw the blood. So the sins were atoned for by the animals slaughtered. Which is a picture of Christ on the cross. The means of our justification. .

claiming that God IMPUTES His righteousness to humans at all. No one is as righteous as God. And God is not unaware of this. God is NOT senile. He doesn't see humans as righteous as Himself. God doesn't cover up our sins with His righteousness either.

If he does not cover up your sins, Your dead, and you have no hope.

That should be obvious. But you and others here promote a sinful holiness. And I stand against that...as I should. So your remarks fall back on you multiplied.

For all have sinned, and fallen short. You can not live up to Gods standard. So many want to lower Gods standard so they can appear to be above it. God is not that as you said senile, that he does not see whats going on. The pharisee did it. And Jesus continually called them out.

of course, they did not like that. So they crucified him, Sadly, that happens a lot on here.

The false gospel makes crazy claims on the deviated ones for being sinful and carnal. It is self-righteousness being promoted. Having maybe started in the Spirit, many learn very quickly to embrace and publish iniquity. Should that not be corrected? But to some this is seen as mischaracterization...even as these claim things that go exactly against the truth. It's the sign of the times.

Self righteousness is basing your salvation on how good you are. As paul said, it is not by works of righteousness (good deeds, or not doing bad deeds interpret this either way) which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us
He saved us by his mercy, he has mercy on sinners like us. Who still are not perfect. Who still are not as righteous as he is, and will not be until we meet him face to face. When sin will be wiped out from our ability, as we will at that time, be just like him